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Thread: Using a red dragon as working ox
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2024-04-12, 04:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2011
Re: Using a red dragon as working ox
Actually their motivation wasn't to punish the evil creatures but to encourage the good creatures to be good. Also the Pact Primeval was basically a swindle.
Not really actually. And in this case we're talking about a creature that was captured before it ever fully matured.
D&D isn't based on those cultures. Because their sensibilities would be a lot of an issue.
There's actually an even easier way for our Red Dragon to deal with this. We've allowed him to move so he can initiate martial maneuvers. Martial Study has plenty of options for this. All the Dragon needs is the ability to learn 2nd Level Maneuvers. Take Martial Study (Stone Dragon) Twice pick up any one maneuver and then take Mountain Hammer, then if you are able to move at all you can break any shackles. You can do this as a Wyrmling. The other option is to take Shadow Jaunt (which has no actual requirements) so you can snag that easily enough and teleport away! So you can escape as a Wyrmling Red DragonLast edited by AMFV; 2024-04-12 at 04:35 AM.
My Avatar is Glimtwizzle, a Gnomish Fighter/Illusionist by Cuthalion.
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2024-04-12, 09:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2017
Re: Using a red dragon as working ox
Also the Pact Primeval is an insulting addition to the lore that got largely ignored in editions that aren't 4e (which was the edition where Asmodeus was put on a weird "he's the strongest and smartest" pedestal for some reason).
I'm eternally glad it was retconned in 5e lore as early as the PHB (which made clear good deities didn't use anything at all to force people into being "good").
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2024-04-12, 10:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2016
Re: Using a red dragon as working ox
Last edited by Bohandas; 2024-04-12 at 10:48 AM.
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2024-04-12, 10:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2011
Re: Using a red dragon as working ox
I like the idea of it as kind of a stopgap against Chaos. When I used that in lore I just generally say that the details of it aren't known to people. So some religious organizations might say that it was to "scare people into being good" Clerics of St. Cuthbert I'm looking at you. But nobody really knows the specifics except that it was intended to stop the spread of the abyss.
That sounds about right!
Edit: I'm pretty sure I've ran games for this guy more than a few times.Last edited by AMFV; 2024-04-12 at 10:55 AM.
My Avatar is Glimtwizzle, a Gnomish Fighter/Illusionist by Cuthalion.
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2024-04-12, 12:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2014
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2024-04-12, 12:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2011
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2024-04-12, 01:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2011
Re: Using a red dragon as working ox
I think we need a bit more clarity on what you mean by "mundane means". Because a level 20 fighter with no magic items is technically "mundane means".
You are, for example, completely ignoring the part of how you're gonna go about mutilating this red dragon without being eviscerated. Red dragons care for their eggs. Maybe not the wyrmlings that hatch from said eggs, but the eggs themselves are protected, as per the draconomicon:
"After mating, the younger dragon is usually left to guard the eggs. Most red wyrmlings are left to fend for themselves. Occasionally, two parents of about equal age mate and tend their young together."
So, you're very unlikely to get a red dragon egg via mundane means and live to talk about it, meaning you cant hatch the egg early and catch the wyrmling while it's vulnerable, hatching it before it's ready, in order to mutilate it before it is able to defend itself (and even if you could manage such a thing, you'd 9/10 induce system shock from the early hatching and mutilation and it would die before maturing)
On the other hand, if you're trying to capture a live wyrmling via mundane means, you're almost certainly doomed to failure. 40ft movement and 150ft fly speed means it's easily able to escape if it sees a fight going against it's favour, 17 strength, 1d8 bite, and 1d6 claws means this is like a rabid black bear on steroids, that is just as smart as you, and probably as tough as ten of your best men, while simultaneously being probably just as armored as you are purely naturally (AC16 = scale male + heavy shield).
And that's not even including the fact that a) it's probably hanging out in environments that you can't survive in, and b) it can probably mow down your whole team with one breath weapon (average 11 damage on it's 2d10 breath weapon, even on a save, 5 damage will kill the average level 1 warrior, expert, aristocrat, or level 2 commoner).
But a lot of this is solved by just being significantly higher level than the dragon in question, so again, it comes back around to: what do you mean by "mundane means".World of Madius wiki - My personal campaign setting, including my homebrew Optional Gestalt/LA rules.
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2024-04-12, 02:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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2024-04-12, 03:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2011
Re: Using a red dragon as working ox
World of Madius wiki - My personal campaign setting, including my homebrew Optional Gestalt/LA rules.
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2024-04-13, 02:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Using a red dragon as working ox
To be honest, no, the intent was different.
The dragonegg was for a third party content that I found about alchemically prepared dragonegg eggnog granting permanent sorcerous powers.
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2024-04-13, 01:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2016
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2024-04-15, 07:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2012
Re: Using a red dragon as working ox
A red dragon is more likely to respond well to positive reinforcement. If you detooth it, declaw it, and clip its wings, it's eventually going to turn on your and kill you. If you instead offer it a steady diet of insubordinate slaves, criminals, and prisoners of war in exchange for manual labor that's honestly probably trivial work for it anyway, it'll probably do whatever you ask and, more importantly, not try to murder you at the first opportunity it gets. That's how you get yourself a Themberchaud.
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2024-04-15, 07:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2016
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Re: Using a red dragon as working ox
I suggest get to lvl 20 first before you try to force a dragon to do your menial tasks
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2024-04-15, 09:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2018
Re: Using a red dragon as working ox
I feel like a 20th level character has better ways of getting farmwork done. Servant Horde gives 2d6+15 Unseen Servants for 20 hours per casting, using a 3rd level slot. Regal Procession gives 20 Mounts for 40 hors per casting, also using a 3rd level slot.
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2024-04-15, 09:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2019
Re: Using a red dragon as working ox
I mean, if we're talking solely about getting labour done, you could just pay sme peasants to do the work. One silver piece per day gets you an untrained hireling working for you, and 8GP gets you a mule or donkey if you need something to pull a plow. Even at level 2 that's a trivial portion of your wealth. Having a red dragon to do this instead is to make a statement, but I'm really not sure OP is sending the statement he wants to be sending by doing this.
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2024-04-15, 01:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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2024-04-15, 01:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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2024-04-15, 06:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2014
Re: Using a red dragon as working ox
You're forgetting that the manual labor is secondary. The primary point is being cruel to an Evil creature. It's about demeaning a thinking feeling creature you don't like to being little more than a beast of burden, crippling it specifically to make it's life worse, as punishment for being such a bad person itself.
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