Suggestions on optimizing Spring Attack?

[pabelfly]

So, I want to make a build that uses the Word Given Form martial art from Tome of Magic. This requires Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, and Unarmed Strike (and maybe Truespeak Training if I don't take levels in a Truespeaking class).

My question: given that my build will need Spring Attack, how could I optimize around this feat so it's not just a feat tax? The easiest way I am aware of is to become a martial Initiator, using Spring Attack to move before and after using a manoeuver, as I understand it. I could alternatively take Bounding Assault and Rapid Blitz to get three attacks a turn, but I already have a lot of feats I want and taking those two as well is a tall order.

Are there other options to help optimize Spring Attack?

[AMFV]

So, I want to make a build that uses the Word Given Form martial art from Tome of Magic. This requires Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, and Unarmed Strike (and maybe Truespeak Training if I don't take levels in a Truespeaking class).

My question: given that my build will need Spring Attack, how could I optimize around this feat so it's not just a feat tax? The easiest way I am aware of is to become a martial Initiator, using Spring Attack to move before and after using a manoeuver, as I understand it. I could alternatively take Bounding Assault and Rapid Blitz to get three attacks a turn, but I already have a lot of feats I want and taking those two as well is a tall order.

Are there other options to help optimize Spring Attack?

Actually being a martial initiator doesn't work because Spring Attack requires the Attack Action, generally this is a kind of common problem when trying to optimize anything that replaces attacks with something else. They tend to involve very specific actions And are therefore more difficult to optimize. Usually the best thing you can do to optimize single attacks IMO is tripping. You trip an enemy and then you get another attack if you have Knockdown. So that's two attacks. Maybe with Snap Kick you could bring it up to four. But it's still quite rough.

[Paragon]

Another way of optimizing those feats is to find PrCs of feats that need them as prereqs.

For instance go Telflammar Shadowlord, Swiftblade or Spelldancer.
Maybe even Dervish if you want to avoid spellcasting.

Also, Hadozees (Sto) have Dodge as a racial bonus feat if you want to change from being human all the time

[AMFV]

There are two other things that have come to my mind that hadn't last time.

1.) Probably super impractical given your likely build... but if you take Dungeoncrasher and Knockback, you can run by enemies and slam them into nearby walls. This also has the advantage of potentially moving them out of AoO range for your character as you move by them. It's not pretty but it's at least a way to get some value out of Spring Attack...


2.) The other thing I thought of is if you are using a lighter weapon and you take the Scorpion's Grasp feat. You could run up to an enemy, hit them, initiate a grapple then move them to another location in a single action. Allowing for some fun battlefield control type things. You'd have to beat them on two grapple checks to make that work, so you'd want some focus on that. Since you make one to grapple them, then one to move them while they're grappled.

Edit: Scorpions Grasp gets especially good if you can fly upwards and drop an enemy or are using Sudden Leap... Actually I have a thought for this!

[Darg]

When it comes to optimizing spring attack, there are a few ways to do it. First there's getting a use out of your move action, such as improved feint comboed with sneak attack or some other high damage. The next is going all in on two weapon fighting and picking up 5 levels of tempest and the bounding assault feat from PHBII (rapid blitz is nice, but 3rd attacks are generally not going to hit except on or near a 20.) Or you could do both, just at a later level. As was mentioned, snap kick is also an option. Especially if you focus on beefing up your damage rather than the number of attacks.

Spring attack is usually relegated to being "bad" simply because there are so many ways to buff charging. Unlike charging however, spring attack can't be shut down by terrain, obstacles, set weapons, side stepping, etc. I like to look at spring attack as an enabler. It enables you to get into flanking positions you wouldn't normally be able to reach without or much less risk and at full speed (tumble has you move at half speed).

An interesting interpretation of the weapon master (kensei) PRC is that Ki Whirlwind Attack could be used with spring attack. Spring attack requires the attack action and whirlwind attack requires the full attack action. As the ability only makes reference to WWA as a full-round action, then for consistency when it references making it as a standard action you can use it as an attack action. This understanding only works because WWA is not a special full-round action. The full-round attack action is the full attack. The standard action attack action is the attack action. As with anything PRC related though, just talk with your DM. Anyone disallowing it is arguing more about RAW than any power imbalances it could cause.

[pabelfly]

Another way of optimizing those feats is to find PrCs of feats that need them as prereqs.

For instance go Telflammar Shadowlord, Swiftblade or Spelldancer.
Maybe even Dervish if you want to avoid spellcasting.

Also, Hadozees (Sto) have Dodge as a racial bonus feat if you want to change from being human all the time

I actually rather like the Hadozee, and if you specifically want Dodge as a bonus feat, there are worse options than Hadozee. And Dervish is an interesting class option, I had forgotten about that. Thank you.

I also have a link in my signature for all low-ECL races with bonus feats, which I've found to be a handy resource: Races with Bonus Feats Cheat Sheet. There are a few other options for bonus feats there, since my table is pretty lenient, sourcebook-wise.

[AMFV]

Spring attack is usually relegated to being "bad" simply because there are so many ways to buff charging. Unlike charging however, spring attack can't be shut down by terrain, obstacles, set weapons, side stepping, etc. I like to look at spring attack as an enabler. It enables you to get into flanking positions you wouldn't normally be able to reach without or much less risk and at full speed (tumble has you move at half speed).

The reason why it's "bad" is because it's making a single standard action attack which makes it not play well lots of things. Charging is better because it allows you make a full-attack at the end of a charge if you have pounce so that plays well with features that replace or augment a full-attack. There's not really that many features that optimize well with a standard action attack. Tripping works decently, but then you're far away from your tripped target so it's hard to trigger trip AoOs on them. Knockback could work with Dungeoncrasher. But basically you have to look for things that augment that single attack, and there's just not that many.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You could always take feats that you actually want and are useful, while using this list for the prereq feats. Preferably by transferring the feats to an item that can't be removed from your person, such as by taking a level in monk and then magically augmenting your unarmed strike.

[Darg]

The reason why it's "bad" is because it's making a single standard action attack which makes it not play well lots of things. Charging is better because it allows you make a full-attack at the end of a charge if you have pounce so that plays well with features that replace or augment a full-attack. There's not really that many features that optimize well with a standard action attack. Tripping works decently, but then you're far away from your tripped target so it's hard to trigger trip AoOs on them. Knockback could work with Dungeoncrasher. But basically you have to look for things that augment that single attack, and there's just not that many.

And originally pounce was a polymorph only benefit. If we ignore the obvious sources like the barbarian ACF or the lion's pounce spell/power, other sources of pounce are actually quite equitable to the benefit spring attack brings. Things like two weapon pounce, lion tribe warrior, blood spiked charger, etc. Charging is harder to pull off though. So it does require an environment tailor made for you to actually pounce more than just once every few combat encounters and it to be effective. In my experience, charging just doesn't happen often enough to warrant the single minded focus.

Then again, we could always play with the words on the page quite literally. By the rules, an attack is a standard action. It does not say an attack action is a standard action. With that we could take it that it's defining the term "attack" for use in reference to actions taken. Thus a full attack allows you to take multiple attack actions. Goes against the entire 2 decades of history we've got going on, but it would put spring attack on the power level of pounce barbarian in a way with your increased mobility, and it would make whirlwind attack much more attractive and less immobile.

That said, you're right that spring attack just doesn't get the kind of support charge does. However, I do think it's more that charge is a base action any one can make while spring attack is a feat and requires a 3 feat investment. WotC didn't really do much support for any particular feat.

[Zarvistic]

Some ideas: You can easily qualify for temarad style 1 from dragon 309, adding dodge bonus and letting you split it so you can get total concealment from multiple targets. If you have a few more feats you can also pretty easy qualify for five star mastery 1 and 2, letting you act hasted sometimes. Skirmish could be good. Claw gloves from magic item compendium are nice, you also can get a rend if you get a 2nd piece of that set. Shi'quos school feat is nice if you can make the elevation work.

[AMFV]

And originally pounce was a polymorph only benefit. If we ignore the obvious sources like the barbarian ACF or the lion's pounce spell/power, other sources of pounce are actually quite equitable to the benefit spring attack brings. Things like two weapon pounce, lion tribe warrior, blood spiked charger, etc. Charging is harder to pull off though. So it does require an environment tailor made for you to actually pounce more than just once every few combat encounters and it to be effective. In my experience, charging just doesn't happen often enough to warrant the single minded focus.

There are probably more than a hundred ways to get free movement to make that full attack:

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...-Free-Movement.

That's a list of different ways it's got a ton. The issue is that full-attacks work with all of those and anything that makes your full attack better usually has better returns when you're attacking more times. Also pouncing builds are based around leap attack. So you jump to make it work... so this whole "difficult terrain" argument is really played and not very accurate, you're jumping. And in addition to that there are skill tricks that fix that

With Spring Attack you are already several feats behind and you're just not getting value. Like move-attack-move is great. But Travel Devotion gives you that. Without any of the limitations that Spring Attack has and with more movement. And with only a single feat investment instead of three. That's a big deal. It's not that spring attack is bad. It's just that there are very few ways too boost your standard action attack that don't give better returns if you figure out some way to make a full-attack. And you have more resources to get even more dramatic returns on that.

Then again, we could always play with the words on the page quite literally. By the rules, an attack is a standard action. It does not say an attack action is a standard action. With that we could take it that it's defining the term "attack" for use in reference to actions taken. Thus a full attack allows you to take multiple attack actions. Goes against the entire 2 decades of history we've got going on, but it would put spring attack on the power level of pounce barbarian in a way with your increased mobility, and it would make whirlwind attack much more attractive and less immobile.

It says the "Attack Action" which is a specific action, so I think Rules-As-Written that's terribly thin. I think that you could probably make that argument to a DM and it would not be an unreasonable thing. Or even just roll all the Spring Attack feats from PHB II into Spring Attack. That's even still weaker because you have to split your attacks between multiple targets, which is not ideal, but that would be a pretty significant boost in power.

That said, you're right that spring attack just doesn't get the kind of support charge does. However, I do think it's more that charge is a base action any one can make while spring attack is a feat and requires a 3 feat investment. WotC didn't really do much support for any particular feat.

It's not that Charge gets more support. Leap Attack, Shock Trooper... that's really all you need to make charge work pretty well. Power Attack obviously but generally everybody wants that. The problem is again, things that boost your attack tend to be worth more if you're attacking more. Like there's not a lot of stuff that boosts a single attack that doesn't boost mutliple attacks more.

[pabelfly]

Some ideas: You can easily qualify for temarad style 1 from dragon 309, adding dodge bonus and letting you split it so you can get total concealment from multiple targets. If you have a few more feats you can also pretty easy qualify for five star mastery 1 and 2, letting you act hasted sometimes. Skirmish could be good. Claw gloves from magic item compendium are nice, you also can get a rend if you get a 2nd piece of that set. Shi'quos school feat is nice if you can make the elevation work.

Was actually going to combine Word Given Form and Combat Defense. Combined with this, I'd now have my Dodge feat at +3 and can change (presumably once a turn) as an immediate action. Thanks for the tip, this looks great.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Don't forget Desert Wind Dodge. Dodge bonus against ALL enemies and counts as Dodge for all purposes. Gotta be mobile and move at least 10', though.

[pabelfly]

Actually being a martial initiator doesn't work because Spring Attack requires the Attack Action, generally this is a kind of common problem when trying to optimize anything that replaces attacks with something else. They tend to involve very specific actions And are therefore more difficult to optimize. Usually the best thing you can do to optimize single attacks IMO is tripping. You trip an enemy and then you get another attack if you have Knockdown. So that's two attacks. Maybe with Snap Kick you could bring it up to four. But it's still quite rough.

Eh, I'm sure I can get into the ballpark of decent damage for the build, I just need to work out how I can best do it.

Don't forget Desert Wind Dodge. Dodge bonus against ALL enemies and counts as Dodge for all purposes. Gotta be mobile and move at least 10', though.

Word Given Form needs you to specify a Dodge target to work. I don't think you can sub in Desert Wind Dodge, although I generally prefer it over regular Dodge for any other circumstance.

[Khatoblepas]

Something that may be of use here is the Emantothrope template using the Small Snow Spider^Frost, it gains Spring Attack as a bonus feat and this ability:

Leap (Ex): Snow spiders are known for darting up to bite their prey, and instantly leaping back to avoid a return attack. They gain Spring Attack as a bonus feat. In addition, if a snow spider can jump on its prey (usually by making a Jump check as part of its movement), it can make a charge attack with a +4 attack bonus instead of the normal +2.

Which seems to state that if you jump as part of a Spring Attack, you can make a charge attack???? Even if not, Spring attack bonus feat!

[AMFV]

Eh, I'm sure I can get into the ballpark of decent damage for the build, I just need to work out how I can best do it.

I'm sure it's possible. Outside of the knockback and dungeon crasher type things. Iaitjutsu. Focus probably works. That's kind of a gimmick but it's a gimmick that makes sense for somebody optimizing spring attack. And like even fits thematically and the related prestige class is pretty good. Also you'd get points for combining two obscure skill-focused things.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Word Given Form needs you to specify a Dodge target to work. I don't think you can sub in Desert Wind Dodge, although I generally prefer it over regular Dodge for any other circumstance.

The feat says, "When using the Dodge feat against an opponent in addition to the +1 dodge bonus to AC, you also gain total concealment (50% miss chance) from that opponent as your form blurs and shifts."

So anything Dodge applies to, so does Word Given Form. Since Desert Wind Dodge applies to everything and counts as Dodge for everything as well, you should be able to apply Word Given Form to everything if you move at least 10' in a round.

[Inevitability]

Sometimes it's better to hit an opponent once and not get hit in return than to exchange full attacks. That is, if you can spring attack up to a melee foe, hit, reduce their speed by a sufficient amount, and move away again, they might as well be stunned for the turn.

Useful ways to do so involve knocking enemies prone, impeding their vision (either by blinding them or via Fog/Darkness effects), the Hamstring feat, the Serene Guardian class, and all sorts of difficult terrain provided you have FoM or some other sort of immunity.

[AMFV]

One other option to consider is Smiting. Smite is a really limited resource, but it works really well with a single attack. Fist of Raziel makes it even more effective with that. You can use abilities from that to impact more enemies or make your single much more devastating. I think going for a Smite Focused build with Fist of Raziel is actually a pretty decent way to make that single attack really count.

At 9th level, whenever a fist of Raziel smites evil, bolts of holy power erupt from the target creature and strike up to 5 additional evil targets within 30 feet, chosen by the fist of Raziel. Targets take 2d6 points of damage, or 2d8 if they are evil outsiders or evil undead. A successful Reflex save (DC 15 + the fist of Raziel's Cha modifier) reduces the damage by half.

That gives you the ability to impact a lot of additional targets with your spring attack feature. If only Spring Attack worked with Charging Smite. But yeah, if you were to potentially combine that with Iaijutsu Focus you'd have a character doing really decent damage on your move up and move away thing.

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...2#post10289492

There's a guide for Smite Damage, it also includes some good stuff for upping single hit damage anyways like the Manyfang Dagger

But yeah, Fist of Raziel and then focusing on smiting when you Spring Attack with Iaitjustu focus from somewhere could actually be a pretty cool character.

[Rebel7284]

The best way to optimize this feat is probably persisted mirror move to get all the prerequisite feats for free. 😅

Alternatively, there is the dancing pegleg is some dragon magazine that gives you the spring attack chain. Combine with Armor of Mobility and some bonus feats and it's not too bad.

Consider taking Midnight Dodge to have two dodge targets and possibly Elusive Target.

In general, Spring Attack could work well if you get a truly ludicrous land speed so you can do hit-and-run tactics effectively. Even better with hide checks. Skirmish damage may help too.

I recall taking Elusive Target on a Swiftblade once, but then the campaign ended before I could use it. But yeah, something like fighting feat wizard->human paragon->swiftblade->spelldancer maybe with some flaws or something might be interesting.

[Daisy]

Sometimes it's better to hit an opponent once and not get hit in return than to exchange full attacks. That is, if you can spring attack up to a melee foe, hit, reduce their speed by a sufficient amount, and move away again, they might as well be stunned for the turn.

Useful ways to do so involve knocking enemies prone, impeding their vision (either by blinding them or via Fog/Darkness effects), the Hamstring feat, the Serene Guardian class, and all sorts of difficult terrain provided you have FoM or some other sort of immunity.

Has anyone tried combining Spring Attack with Improved Trip (which you can pick up "free" with Wolf Totem Barbarian, I believe)? Move up, knock them down, free hit, move away.

[Darg]

Has anyone tried combining Spring Attack with Improved Trip (which you can pick up "free" with Wolf Totem Barbarian, I believe)? Move up, knock them down, free hit, move away.

I've used it with a monk grappler before. Quite effective in my opinion, but my games never tend to be at the level where cleric/wizard is better than a fighter. Snap kick allows you to deeply penetrate enemy lines using spring attack and then grapple the wizard in the back.

Also, an advantage spring attack gives is full movement and an attack in the surprise round or when staggered.

[pabelfly]

Has anyone tried combining Spring Attack with Improved Trip (which you can pick up "free" with Wolf Totem Barbarian, I believe)? Move up, knock them down, free hit, move away.

This might actually be the first time someone has taken a one-level dip in Barbarian, looked at Lion Totem and Pounce and said: "no, thanks, my martial character doesn't want that."

[Darg]

This might actually be the first time someone has taken a one-level dip in Barbarian, looked at Lion Totem and Pounce and said: "no, thanks, my martial character doesn't want that."

It's not the first time at all. My groups avoid it because flat open fields are rare and when they aren't enemies use tactics that make charging difficult if not suicidal or impossible.

[Inevitability]

This might actually be the first time someone has taken a one-level dip in Barbarian, looked at Lion Totem and Pounce and said: "no, thanks, my martial character doesn't want that."

I've made a mounted barbarian who didn't take it on account of that pesky 'only one attack if your mount moves too far' clause. Plus, I needed smite anyway which meant trading Fast Movement for Unholy Fury.

Also there's probably some contrived reason why you might want to go that ranger-variant-barbarian for Rapid Shot etc? In which case it'd obviously be useless too.

[Darg]

Also there's probably some contrived reason why you might want to go that ranger-variant-barbarian for Rapid Shot etc? In which case it'd obviously be useless too.

Rage has limited uses per day. Rapid shot is just as good as TWF for thrown weapons, melee or ranged attacks. I'd say it wouldn't be that bad, but power throw requires power attack and I think that is a completely unnecessary requirement. And honestly the "arrows only" thing that many shot has going on is pretty dumb in my opinion. You satisfy the "requirement" just by throwing arrows as improvised weapons.

[AMFV]

It's not the first time at all. My groups avoid it because flat open fields are rare and when they aren't enemies use tactics that make charging difficult if not suicidal or impossible.

You don't need a flat open field. If you have the right skill trick you can dodge over part of it. The zigzag charge one works good too. Also again you are jumping. Leap attack is a fundamental part of charging bills so you're already jumping over a significant part of the drain. You can buy boots that ignore difficult terrain at high enough level. You can buy items that allow you to fly at medium level. I don't know where you're getting this idea that it's really hard to charge but there are many many ways to make it pretty good and incredibly reliable. And one of them is an integral part of almost every charging build

[Darg]

You don't need a flat open field. If you have the right skill trick you can dodge over part of it. The zigzag charge one works good too. Also again you are jumping. Leap attack is a fundamental part of charging bills so you're already jumping over a significant part of the drain. You can buy boots that ignore difficult terrain at high enough level. You can buy items that allow you to fly at medium level. I don't know where you're getting this idea that it's really hard to charge but there are many many ways to make it pretty good and incredibly reliable. And one of them is an integral part of almost every charging build

Twisted charge lets you make a single turn of up to 90 degrees during a charge while limiting you to only your speed. This allows you to bypass a single obstacle on a horizontal plane. Leap attack only let's you bypass rough terrain, you still can't high jump. If you fly you can't use leap attack and twisted charge doesn't mitigate the need of setting up a straight line charge when diving and the fact that creatures are cover.

I'm not saying charging is hard, just that I've never played a game where charging is tactically viable on its own to be enough to build a character around and it be the defacto better option than anything else. We've obviously had vastly different experiences in playing the game. Yes, charging is theoretically the best possible way to build, but the practicality of such a decision relies solely upon how your games are played. And building such a character in the kind of games I play in would literally make them all the same character because of the investment involved to make the return have more value than other options. I don't know about you, but I definitely prefer playing different characters differently from each other.

[AMFV]

Twisted charge lets you make a single turn of up to 90 degrees during a charge while limiting you to only your speed. This allows you to bypass a single obstacle on a horizontal plane. Leap attack only let's you bypass rough terrain, you still can't high jump. If you fly you can't use leap attack and twisted charge doesn't mitigate the need of setting up a straight line charge when diving and the fact that creatures are cover

You are confusing Leap Attack and Battle Jump they are two different feats. Leap Attack has no requirement that you not be flying. Battle Jump does, Battle Jump can be used however with all kinds of teleportation options. Anklets of Translocation. There are literally hundreds of options for this. Twisted Charge is only of the skill tricks you might consider, Wall Jumper, Extreme Leap. The tumbling ones. Walk the Wall fixes most dungeon scenarios.

I'm not saying charging is hard, just that I've never played a game where charging is tactically viable on its own to be enough to build a character around and it be the defacto better option than anything else. We've obviously had vastly different experiences in playing the game. Yes, charging is theoretically the best possible way to build, but the practicality of such a decision relies solely upon how your games are played. And building such a character in the kind of games I play in would literally make them all the same character because of the investment involved to make the return have more value than other options. I don't know about you, but I definitely prefer playing different characters differently from each other.

You have played in such a game. Charging requires a pretty decent knowledge to optimize. The "de facto better option" is a martial initiator which is really easy to build. Charging is generally something you can compare to for "non-initiator builds" to say "Hey am I doing as good as a charger would?" Which is pretty important when we're talking optimized chargers. But there are a lot of different ways that charging can be to work reliably in nearly every encounter with enough feats and items. It's not hard at all to do that. The big flaw with charging is that damage is usually all you're bringing to the table and if there is an enemy that you can't charge that you really want dead you... well I guess you're just a high mobility full attacking barbarian fighter with a ton of power attack... hmmm that doesn't seem nearly as bad.

And what I'm saying is that a charger that was properly built would have been able to charge in every game you've played or run. Once they hit mid level for sure.

[Darg]

You are confusing Leap Attack and Battle Jump they are two different feats. Leap Attack has no requirement that you not be flying. Battle Jump does, Battle Jump can be used however with all kinds of teleportation options. Anklets of Translocation. There are literally hundreds of options for this. Twisted Charge is only of the skill tricks you might consider, Wall Jumper, Extreme Leap. The tumbling ones. Walk the Wall fixes most dungeon scenarios.

No, I'm talking about leap attack and no you can't jump while flying so that's out the window. As for battle jump, there is some contention on the function of the feat as the text says you need to be able to hurl yourself onto a foe. If you just teleport above them, you really don't have that "hurl" aspect. I could see a natural flyer being able to use their wings to hurl themselves down though. Wall jumper doesn't negate the straight line movement requirement of a charge and I have no clue to how extreme leap can help except to negate part of the negative of using twisted charge. Walk the walls has the problem of hindering your movement and you still wouldn't be moving in a straight line. You might be more inclined to be permissive in your games, but I can't see them as they are written to be taken as is to be the game changers in how you charge that you make them out to be.

You have played in such a game. Charging requires a pretty decent knowledge to optimize. The "de facto better option" is a martial initiator which is really easy to build. Charging is generally something you can compare to for "non-initiator builds" to say "Hey am I doing as good as a charger would?" Which is pretty important when we're talking optimized chargers. But there are a lot of different ways that charging can be to work reliably in nearly every encounter with enough feats and items. It's not hard at all to do that. The big flaw with charging is that damage is usually all you're bringing to the table and if there is an enemy that you can't charge that you really want dead you... well I guess you're just a high mobility full attacking barbarian fighter with a ton of power attack... hmmm that doesn't seem nearly as bad.

And what I'm saying is that a charger that was properly built would have been able to charge in every game you've played or run. Once they hit mid level for sure.

If your target for performance is initiators, you may as well cut the core martial classes, even barbarian, as an option for discussion. You simply aren't reaching that level of versatility with any of them. They already have access to pounce so wasting a level on a single per day use of rage and pounce is pretty pointless. As mentioned above, I don't think your permissive interpretations of the rules are as wide spread as you make them out to be. Maybe I am wrong though. My groups are pretty insular so fresh perspectives are rare and we don't have experience with "official venues."

Then again, if all you can say is that a character who wants to be able to perform must be a charging barbarian, then maybe I'm not because I don't think playing a single martial build or casters is actually a fun game dynamic. Maybe you really like playing the same characters over and over, but I don't and everyone I know wouldn't.