Ideas needed for BBEG using devils

[lajiboi]

I'm looking for some help fleshing out my BBEG. He was the younger brother of a king and made a deal with a devil (or in some way used the assistance of devils) to kill the king and queen so that he could ascend to the throne. (Of course, the king's daughter managed to escape and will try to reclaim the throne during the campaign.) My issue is that devil contracts are complicated and I'm struggling to figure out exactly what sort of deal he has made and how much assistance he's able to get from the devil.

I also have a plan for one of the first combat encounters to be a fight with some devils that he has summoned. This will take place years after the BBEG kills his brother, once the princess has grown up. Would he still be able to call on the assistance of this devil years later? My concern is that devil contracts are typically short-lived, so I don't think he'd be able to repeatedly call on a devil or devils to do his bidding over many years.

Another tricky part is I don't want the players to know that he summoned the devils, so I would like for him to be able to summon them from afar. I was thinking this could be done by having one of his minions drop an amulet or some other magical item that would create a portal or summoning circle. The players will be able to see the amulet, which will provide them with a clue, but they won't know who dropped it or where it came from.

Would love to hear some thoughts on this! Any ideas are welcome.

[Tawmis]

I'm looking for some help fleshing out my BBEG. He was the younger brother of a king and made a deal with a devil (or in some way used the assistance of devils) to kill the king and queen so that he could ascend to the throne. (Of course, the king's daughter managed to escape and will try to reclaim the throne during the campaign.) My issue is that devil contracts are complicated and I'm struggling to figure out exactly what sort of deal he has made and how much assistance he's able to get from the devil.

I also have a plan for one of the first combat encounters to be a fight with some devils that he has summoned. This will take place years after the BBEG kills his brother, once the princess has grown up. Would he still be able to call on the assistance of this devil years later? My concern is that devil contracts are typically short-lived, so I don't think he'd be able to repeatedly call on a devil or devils to do his bidding over many years.

Another tricky part is I don't want the players to know that he summoned the devils, so I would like for him to be able to summon them from afar. I was thinking this could be done by having one of his minions drop an amulet or some other magical item that would create a portal or summoning circle. The players will be able to see the amulet, which will provide them with a clue, but they won't know who dropped it or where it came from.

Would love to hear some thoughts on this! Any ideas are welcome.

Devils and demons play the long game. There's no need for the deal to be short.
Could be - "We will help you ascend to the throne, but once you're in power, you will need to sacrifice prisoners in the name of Athenal, the great devil."

[JLandan]

I'm looking for some help fleshing out my BBEG. He was the younger brother of a king and made a deal with a devil (or in some way used the assistance of devils) to kill the king and queen so that he could ascend to the throne. (Of course, the king's daughter managed to escape and will try to reclaim the throne during the campaign.) My issue is that devil contracts are complicated and I'm struggling to figure out exactly what sort of deal he has made and how much assistance he's able to get from the devil.

I also have a plan for one of the first combat encounters to be a fight with some devils that he has summoned. This will take place years after the BBEG kills his brother, once the princess has grown up. Would he still be able to call on the assistance of this devil years later? My concern is that devil contracts are typically short-lived, so I don't think he'd be able to repeatedly call on a devil or devils to do his bidding over many years.

Another tricky part is I don't want the players to know that he summoned the devils, so I would like for him to be able to summon them from afar. I was thinking this could be done by having one of his minions drop an amulet or some other magical item that would create a portal or summoning circle. The players will be able to see the amulet, which will provide them with a clue, but they won't know who dropped it or where it came from.

Would love to hear some thoughts on this! Any ideas are welcome.

Perhaps the devils themselves use other pacts with other creatures to obtain their goals with this pact. The PCs work their way through some of them, gradually realizing that these enemies are all under contract with devils. Who else might be under contract? With which devils? For what goal?

[Mastikator]

My 2 cents:

The issue of "how did he kill the king and queen and ascend" can be answered with power or subterfuge, or both. Perhaps he gained the permanent command of an orthon, the orthon assassinated the royal guard, court wizard, etc. He then used mortal means to kill the king and queen. Nobody knows about the orthon, that can be a surprise for the players. As far as anyone is concerned the old king's defenses were weak and the new king just took it because he was better.

The issue of "what do the devils get" and "how does he summon devils", I believe can be answered with the same question. The devils are promised that they get ownership of his heir. But rather than merely condemning his heir, his heir is a cambion who also serves as a channel between the planes. The devils want the kingdom, they're perfectly happy to let the new king live a long good life and then die of old age, only for the heir to take over and rule in the devils' favor once he is dead.

[Unoriginal]

I'm looking for some help fleshing out my BBEG. He was the younger brother of a king and made a deal with a devil (or in some way used the assistance of devils) to kill the king and queen so that he could ascend to the throne. (Of course, the king's daughter managed to escape and will try to reclaim the throne during the campaign.) My issue is that devil contracts are complicated and I'm struggling to figure out exactly what sort of deal he has made and how much assistance he's able to get from the devil.

I also have a plan for one of the first combat encounters to be a fight with some devils that he has summoned. This will take place years after the BBEG kills his brother, once the princess has grown up. Would he still be able to call on the assistance of this devil years later? My concern is that devil contracts are typically short-lived, so I don't think he'd be able to repeatedly call on a devil or devils to do his bidding over many years.

Another tricky part is I don't want the players to know that he summoned the devils, so I would like for him to be able to summon them from afar. I was thinking this could be done by having one of his minions drop an amulet or some other magical item that would create a portal or summoning circle. The players will be able to see the amulet, which will provide them with a clue, but they won't know who dropped it or where it came from.

Would love to hear some thoughts on this! Any ideas are welcome.

I'll echo what others have said: there is no reason for a devil contract to be short-lived, they're immortal and quite disciplined. Plus "I have this ongoing contract, if I die we can't benefit from it" is a good way for a devil to avoid getting killed by other devils who have something to gain from it.

To put things in perspective, the Archdevil Zariel had a contract where she agreed to take her payment something like 50 years after doing her part of the deal.

As for the contract being complicated, I wouldn't worry about it. The "what you get, what I get" part of a devil contract is usually very simple, as it is meant to entice and deceive the mortal signing it. It's all the fine prints, side-conditions and exceptions that are deliberately obscure and labyrinthine, and that doesn't matter much in this case.

The issue of "what do the devils get" and "how does he summon devils", I believe can be answered with the same question. The devils are promised that they get ownership of his heir. But rather than merely condemning his heir, his heir is a cambion who also serves as a channel between the planes. The devils want the kingdom, they're perfectly happy to let the new king live a long good life and then die of old age, only for the heir to take over and rule in the devils' favor once he is dead.

Good idea, but personally, I would go about it the opposite way:

The BBEG promised the Devils his kingdom if they helped him take the throne until his death, but one of the conditions is that the BBEG has no heir, ever, which will allow the Devils to claim the realm.

Since his niece/the former king's daughter is technically his heir, once she shows up again the BBEG re-contacts the Devils and tell them they have to handle this issue if they want their prize.

Which explains why the Devil in charge of the contract has to allow the BBEG's agents to summon Devils to deal with the problem.

[Mastikator]

Good idea, but personally, I would go about it the opposite way:

The BBEG promised the Devils his kingdom if they helped him take the throne until his death, but one of the conditions is that the BBEG has no heir, ever, which will allow the Devils to claim the realm.

Since his niece/the former king's daughter is technically his heir, once she shows up again the BBEG re-contacts the Devils and tell them they have to handle this issue if they want their prize.

Which explains why the Devil in charge of the contract has to allow the BBEG's agents to summon Devils to deal with the problem.

I like the idea of the BBEG trying to pull a sneaky one on the devils, it opens up the option of a devil making contact with the PCs (once it becomes apparent to them that they could potentially kill the BBEG) to do something (I haven't figured out what) that would undermine the BBEG and further the devils' agenda.

I think whatever that something is, it should also have a cost down the line to the players. Because obviously, when a devil shows up and offers you a deal, you tell him to cram it and stick him with the pointy end. (and when they kill the devil, he drops some sweet loot)

[Unoriginal]

I like the idea of the BBEG trying to pull a sneaky one on the devils, it opens up the option of a devil making contact with the PCs (once it becomes apparent to them that they could potentially kill the BBEG) to do something (I haven't figured out what) that would undermine the BBEG and further the devils' agenda.

I think whatever that something is, it should also have a cost down the line to the players. Because obviously, when a devil shows up and offers you a deal, you tell him to cram it and stick him with the pointy end. (and when they kill the devil, he drops some sweet loot)

What if, by contract, the main Devil and their subordinates are forced to help the BBEG keep his throne to the best of their capacities, but if the BBEG gets killed in spite of their effort said Devils get the biggest payday?

[Envyus]

Devils love having Kings and other rulers as pawns, the benefits are so high for devils that the deals tend to be very beneficial for the rulers.

Like one of the first and easiest benefits is the potential for the kingdom to become a soul factory for Hell. By altering the Laws of the land to alter citizen behaviour towards becoming Hellbound, or even making laws that will make citizens unknownly sign away their souls. This is generally slow, but can be quite profitable to Hell in the long run, and any Devils that played their part in plot are certain to be rewarded for it.

[Pooky the Imp]

Okay, bouncing off some of the heir ideas suggested above, what if the condition is that the BBEG has to take a Succubus as his wife?

The intent would be for the succubus to birth literal devil-children, who would nevertheless be the rightful heirs and able to use the power, influence, authority and trust of the monarchy to corrupt a great many souls in the kingdom.

The devils would be happy to protect the king, as he would be necessary for this plan to succeed. Though, after he'd fathered a few children, he might have outlived his usefulness. ;)

As far as summoning the devils, could the BBEG have done so in a secluded place, far from the palace (probably not the sort of thing you'd want a servant walking in on!)? Perhaps even some unholy shrine he'd stumbled across (or been led to)?

Given that many devils can teleport and/or change form, the demons could have remained with him afterwards, disguised as dogs, servants or the like. Others could make themselves invisible and quietly remain within teleportation distance, ready to jump to his side should the BBEG summon them.

If the BBEG needs to summon more demons he could, as you say, send a trusted minion or such to do so.

[Mastikator]

Okay, bouncing off some of the heir ideas suggested above, what if the condition is that the BBEG has to take a Succubus as his wife?

The intent would be for the succubus to birth literal devil-children, who would nevertheless be the rightful heirs and able to use the power, influence, authority and trust of the monarchy to corrupt a great many souls in the kingdom.

The devils would be happy to protect the king, as he would be necessary for this plan to succeed. Though, after he'd fathered a few children, he might have outlived his usefulness. ;)

As far as summoning the devils, could the BBEG have done so in a secluded place, far from the palace (probably not the sort of thing you'd want a servant walking in on!)? Perhaps even some unholy shrine he'd stumbled across (or been led to)?

Given that many devils can teleport and/or change form, the demons could have remained with him afterwards, disguised as dogs, servants or the like. Others could make themselves invisible and quietly remain within teleportation distance, ready to jump to his side should the BBEG summon them.

If the BBEG needs to summon more demons he could, as you say, send a trusted minion or such to do so.

The succubus brokered the deal,
he'd gain the means to take down the king,
in exchange for making them kneel,
before the kingdom he made a great stand
in return he'd agreed to offer his hand..

... in marriage

[Vahnavoi]

Liberally rip off Berserk.

In case you've not read it: the usurper king is a (false) messianic figure set up by the devils. The death of his brother and family were the sacrifice he had to make to live out this dream. Lessers devils are directly under his thumb because devils higher up the hierarchy are hoping for him to take the whole kingdom with him, possibly in a holy war of sorts.

Unbeknowst to most, the new king has already filled his new royal guard and replaced higher-ups of the clergy with disguised infernals. He may later reveal it, but only to make a big show of it. ("Look how even creatures of darkness bow and surrender to His Holy Majesty!")

The former king's daughter being alive is by design. The fine print on the new king's contract requires him to be unflinching in following his dream, and this requires sacrifice of the girl. Failure to do so will mean he's stripped of his messianic powers and that the disguised infernals will run rampant through the kingdom. Failure is more about showing sympathy or remorse than simply physical inability to do the deed - if a third party, such as the player characters, repeatedly stop the infernal assassins, that's not enough to trigger the clause.

Put as much tragic family drama behind it all as you can stomach.

[Unoriginal]

Okay, bouncing off some of the heir ideas suggested above, what if the condition is that the BBEG has to take a Succubus as his wife?

Succubi aren't Devils in 5e.

The intent would be for the succubus to birth literal devil-children, who would nevertheless be the rightful heirs and able to use the power, influence, authority and trust of the monarchy to corrupt a great many souls in the kingdom.

The devils would be happy to protect the king, as he would be necessary for this plan to succeed. Though, after he'd fathered a few children, he might have outlived his usefulness. ;)

I mean, 1) the King could just declare one of the Devils the legal heir, there is no reason to require a blood-related child 2) since according to OP it's been a long while since the takeover the Devils would have already made the king get a blood-related child.

[Vahnavoi]

If we want to honor the D&D tradition of splitting hairs of various infernal creatures:

The difference between demons (such as succubi) and devils is the conflict between Chaos and Law. Since newer editions are bad at explaining this, let's harken back to old times:

The chief conflict between Chaos and Law is that of the individual versus large, organized groups. Hence, when it comes to extremely Chaotic Evil creatures such a demons, even the lowliest them of thinks of itself as the center of the universe - and any suggestion otherwise is offensive to them in a way that makes them want to hurt somebody. They won't really obey anyone unless it pleases them personally or somebody's forcing them.

Lawful Evil creatures, such as devils, don't think like this. They believe there is a hierarchy to the world, with the Better People deserving to be on top and the Inferior People on the bottom. As corollary, lower-level devils don't need a reason to obey the usurper king other than that he's on their side - he's the Chosen One who will bring Hell on Earth for greater glory of Devilkind. They will happily bend the knee to their king it means the rest of creation will be made to bend the knee before them.

[Unoriginal]

If we want to honor the D&D tradition of splitting hairs of various infernal creatures:

The difference between demons (such as succubi)

Succubi aren't Demons in 5e.

Since newer editions are bad at explaining this, let's harken back to old times:

The chief conflict between Chaos and Law is that of the individual versus large, organized groups. Hence, when it comes to extremely Chaotic Evil creatures such a demons, even the lowliest them of thinks of itself as the center of the universe - and any suggestion otherwise is offensive to them in a way that makes them want to hurt somebody. They won't really obey anyone unless it pleases them personally or somebody's forcing them.

5e does actually an incredible job of explaining that. Especially in the Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes, which has the best demonstration of that ever, IMO.

Lawful Evil creatures, such as devils, don't think like this. They believe there is a hierarchy to the world, with the Better People deserving to be on top and the Inferior People on the bottom. As corollary, lower-level devils don't need a reason to obey the usurper king other than that he's on their side - he's the Chosen One who will bring Hell on Earth for greater glory of Devilkind. They will happily bend the knee to their king it means the rest of creation will be made to bend the knee before them.

This part isn't really accurate, though. At least not for this edition.

*Some* Devils are genuinely servile, sycophantic, or even personally loyal to their superiors, but most of them aren't.

The average Devil thinks of themselves as one of the Better People deserving to be on top, and that reality doesn't reflect that is nothing but a temporary embarrassement they will correct. They obey their superiors due to a mix of This Is How Things Are Done, legal obligations they can't dodge, fear of punishment, and thinking obeying now will give them opportunities later if they aren't already using the opportunity to try and advance themselves right now. In fact, most Devils are actively working to betray their hierarchical superior and take their place.

So no, the odds of the usurper king having *several* Devils who would happily bend the knee to him are quite low. The odds of having Devils *pretend* doing it while taking the king to the cleaners or moving their own pawns in the shadows is quite high, however.

[Vahnavoi]

I'd completely missed they changed succubi to default Neutral Evil this time. Not that it matters for the overarching point.

As for "most devils" conspiring against their superiors, that's part of what I mean when I say newer editions are bad at explaining the difference between Chaos and Law. Devils are, supposedly, Lawful Evil incarnate - them having no in-group loyalty cheapens that and makes them less distinct from demons and other such creatures. Their malice should be mostly targeted towards those outside their group bias - which is why it matters whether the usurper king is "one of us!" or not.

This loops back to the double-bind described earlier, where the usurper king either unflinchingly pursues their dream, bringing Hell on Earth that way, or they falter in the face of their niece and the demons break from his control because he wasn't devilish enough.

[Blatant Beast]

Naomi Novik, in her novel Spinning Silver, has an interesting take on this trope:

The deal with the demon, for the second son to assume the throne, was made by the second son's mother, before the the spare prince was born. Of course the mother offered up her son's soul as part of the cost of the bargain.

The Demon, therefore, initiated the plan to kill the the first born king, without the approval of the beneficiary of the plot, (the second son).

The demonically supported Prince, hates being king, and would gladly be rid of the demon, but the demon inhabits his body, (can take actual possession of the body, and does so at night), and the demon inflicts terrible punishments upon the young man, to compel compliance, and has done so for the prince's entire life.

This would add an extra moral dimension to the setup, and adds a potential win condition of the PC group being able to break the deal for the King, and free them of the demonic influence.

[No brains]

From the crunch side of things, the devils profit from getting a king's ransom of expensive gems to help summon devils into the material plane. Infernal Calling, Planar Binding, and probably in some cases, Planar Ally all make use of 1000gp gems. Sure the devils would typically be bound by some terms when summoned with those spells, but devils are adept at cooperation and weaseling in technically legal acts into their tasks, letting them make subtle but big moves when they can get many devils on a task.

Sure someone could tell a pair of devils not to burn down a temple, but if one of them likes to smoke and another really likes high proof booze, 'accidents' could happen.

If you want devils to get involved subtly, a sorcerer* bad guy with subtle spell is an easy way to subtly summon devils. Yeah, a royal is wearing a necklace with a 999gp ruby set in it. Why shouldn't they? Also a long term Planar Binding or Planar Ally could allow for a devil to communicate with its summoner through subtle means, like the flags flying over the castle on a certain day, the smell of different things getting burnt somewhere, or something like that. A devil could also straight up lie about its identity. If the bad guy prays for an angel to save them and an Erinyes swoops down to smite some fools from longbow range, even people with Detect Evil might not know the difference.

*Or someone who has Metamagic Adept and some way to cast Infernal Calling. Spell lists can be tricky to keep straight. IIRC an Eloquence Bard who uses a magical secret to learn Infernal Calling is the best way to use the spell and it's kind of a hassle any other way.

[Unoriginal]

I'd completely missed they changed succubi to default Neutral Evil this time. Not that it matters for the overarching point.

As for "most devils" conspiring against their superiors, that's part of what I mean when I say newer editions are bad at explaining the difference between Chaos and Law. Devils are, supposedly, Lawful Evil incarnate - them having no in-group loyalty cheapens that and makes them less distinct from demons and other such creatures. Their malice should be mostly targeted towards those outside their group bias - which is why it matters whether the usurper king is "one of us!" or not.

This loops back to the double-bind described earlier, where the usurper king either unflinchingly pursues their dream, bringing Hell on Earth that way, or they falter in the face of their niece and the demons break from his control because he wasn't devilish enough.

Being lawful does not mean "loyal to the individuals that are part of the system". Lawful neutral or even lawful good people will generally prioritize loyalty to the system rather than the individual or individuals.

Devils are loyal to the system, but most of them believe the system would be better with them running it.

[Vahnavoi]

Monarchy, feodalism and religion are systems. You don't bow to the king on the top of the pole just because he's individually a swell guy - you do so because it affirms the position and concept of authority, an important thing to anyone who'd aspire to be a figure of authority themselves. Remember: organized groups over individuals. It's about the crown and what it represents, not just the guy wearing it.

If you wanted an alternative twist from this, the devils could switch sides to the former king's daughter, provided she can show her claim to be more legitimate than the usurper, and indeed this may have been part of the long con from the start. Of course, it would also mean that by helping the princess, the player characters end up helping the devils further down the line.

[Unoriginal]

Monarchy, feodalism and religion are systems. You don't bow to the king on the top of the pole just because he's individually a swell guy - you do so because it affirms the position and concept of authority, an important thing to anyone who'd aspire to be a figure of authority themselves. Remember: organized groups over individuals. It's about the crown and what it represents, not just the guy wearing it.

If you wanted an alternative twist from this, the devils could switch sides to the former king's daughter, provided she can show her claim to be more legitimate than the usurper, and indeed this may have been part of the long con from the start. Of course, it would also mean that by helping the princess, the player characters end up helping the devils further down the line.

It's also possible a rival of the Devil who set up the usurper has set plans for the princess to triumph, or will jump on the winning horse if she can demonstrate she has what it takes to be said horse.

Alternatively the PCs could try challenging the usurper's pact in a Devilish court, or try to go above the bad guys' head and talk to the Devil's superior.

[Sorinth]

I think it makes sense that the original deal would allow the king to have long term access to devil assistance but if you don't want to go that direction then I would suggest more then 1 deal. What if the king is constantly having to renegotiate with the devil for more and more help and basically feeling forced into giving increasingly lopsided deals to the devil to maintain power. Ideally the devil's help is also creating some of these problems.

I'd also add it's unlikely the players will ever find out the exact wording of the deal/contract so the specifics don't really matter so I wouldn't put much time/effort into it beyond figuring out motives/goals/relationships between the king and devil(s).


For the keeping the summoning a secret the easiest is to stick with flying devils. Summon them at night and let them fly out of the city unseen to get where ever they need to go. Or have the actual summoning be done by a group of cultists/warlocks, the king works out the details with the devil, and then the devil gets his warlock to do the actual summoning somewhere out of the way.

[Envyus]

If Devils have been ordered to support the King by a superior then they will do so. Hell is merit based, if a devil does their job properly they are rewarded for it. Treachery is only used on occasion, and has to be done properly to avoid punishment.

If the Devils want a puppet kingdom they will support the king (probably secretly at first) in whatever endeavours are needed to get the Kingdom the way they want.

The Devils have no incentive to betray or work against the King because that could mess with the long term plans and result in punishment.

[Unoriginal]

If Devils have been ordered to support the King by a superior then they will do so. Hell is merit based, if a devil does their job properly they are rewarded for it. Treachery is only used on occasion, and has to be done properly to avoid punishment.

If the Devils want a puppet kingdom they will support the king (probably secretly at first) in whatever endeavours are needed to get the Kingdom the way they want.

The Devils have no incentive to betray or work against the King because that could mess with the long term plans and result in punishment.

Devils literally can't go against the terms of a Deal they've made, but it's quite unlikely to find a Deal with terms that aren't inherently treacherous.

So while the Devils may work without deviating from what the higher-ranking Devil who made the Deal instructed them to do, it's almost guaranteed that the Deal itself is meant to screw over with the usurping king for the Devil's benefits.

Specifically because a Deal that isn't screwing the mortal over as much as possible won't be seen favorably by the Devil's superiors. With a few exceptions for Deals with fair terms which are meant to bait more people into the regular abusive Deals.

[Envyus]

Deals with rulers like Kings are generally much more favourable for non devil party, cause the Devils can get far more benefit from it than just a soul.

Take Descent into Avernus. Kreeg the ruler of Elturel in exchange for helping damn his own city and its inhabitants to Hell, he was made into a beloved hero and ruler for 50 years, after which the city would be claimed. His job after that was to assist in similar plots and after his death he would be made into a high ranking devil with his memory and personality intact.

[Unoriginal]

Deals with rulers like Kings are generally much more favourable for non devil party, cause the Devils can get far more benefit from it than just a soul.

Take Descent into Avernus. Kreeg the ruler of Elturel in exchange for helping damn his own city and its inhabitants to Hell, he was made into a beloved hero and ruler for 50 years, after which the city would be claimed. His job after that was to assist in similar plots and after his death he would be made into a high ranking devil with his memory and personality intact.

True, but if Kreeg dies during the adventure

Spoiler

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it turns out once in Hell he's imprisoned and left to rot in a cell of Zariel's flying fortress, as she absolutely doesn't trust this treacherous weasel, even after he's transformed into a high-ranking Devil.

Which shows that even when you get everything you want out of the Deal, it's only the beginning of your troubles.

[Kane0]

"Of course we can help you ascend to the throne. In return, your queen will be this devil concubine who will also act as our intermediary"

[Envyus]

True, but if Kreeg dies during the adventure

Spoiler

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it turns out once in Hell he's imprisoned and left to rot in a cell of Zariel's flying fortress, as she absolutely doesn't trust this treacherous weasel, even after he's transformed into a high-ranking Devil.

Which shows that even when you get everything you want out of the Deal, it's only the beginning of your troubles.

Not quite.

Spoiler

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Kreeg is only imprisoned until the bargain is completed by Elturel being pulled into the River Styx. The imprisonment is only temporary.