The Noctuary (D&D 3.5e, Level 20+ Adventure)

[Archmage1]

Sure, if you go down the route of total optimization. That said I would generally recommend against that as it rapidly makes the game distinctly unfun because the system just isn't designed to handle that.

[AvatarVecna]

AvatarVecnaa, aren't you going to use infusions at all? You're purely crafting there?

I mean like I vaguely know a few useful ones exist? Like I know there's one that I think you can use to do persistomancy cheese without crafting any items? And I think there's one that temporarily changes the bonus type of a +number item to whatever you want, so I could in theory have like +6 Dex (enhancement) on all my items and then change all of them to circumstance bonuses so they all stack for +100 dex but like ehhhhhhhh then I'd have to learn how infusions work in general and what those specific ones are called. The casting/crafting subsystem is a familiar sandbox to play around in.

I've also not learned basically any other subsystem. Psionics, ToB, incarnum, truenaming, shadowcasting, whatever it is sha'ir does...just never bothered. Swhy I'm really kind of mediocre at optimizing lol

[kinem]

For Verik I avoided Shapechange so as to keep optimization from getting too high. If we are going that way then I could change that.

chaincomplex: If we ever level up, I am thinking he would take a level of Marshal. Because of the way BAB works for epic characters, never increasing after level 20, I might be better off taking it now along with a couple of levels of Abjurant Champion. I would lose a caster level for now but get up to BAB +11 which otherwise I could never do. Is that how BAB will work here?

BTW, the premise of this game has certain similarities to something I was already thinking about for a Planescape game I might someday run, so am I definitely very interested.

[Dakrsidder]

Archmage1, I'd argue it breaks the game in combat as well, doesn't it? Turn into a Chronotyryn and you get to cast two spells per turn, etc. Or into a Solar and pop a Wish, then the next round into a Pit Fiend and pop a Wish, then the round after that into a Zodar and pop a Wish.

The Chronotyryn is small stuff; a Nagahydra can cast 5 spells per round; a Spell Weaver can cast a free spell level for each arm and starts with 6, but ofc you can increase that; a Protean Scourge can split ad nauseam and then cast an arbitrary number of spells in a round. There’s also other broken cheese you can innately do with Shapechange, like turn into a Sarrukh and abuse Manipulate Form, but even without resorting to stinky cheese like this it’s a spell that just naturally reeks.

[droobles]

Since we are using fractional bab/saves, do we get de +2 to a save from a 1st level in class in multiclassing, or do we get it only once?

[JNAProductions]

Since we are using fractional bab/saves, do we get de +2 to a save from a 1st level in class in multiclassing, or do we get it only once?

For fractional, you only get +2 for a good save once, if I recall correctly.

[AvatarVecna]

For fractional, you only get +2 for a good save once, if I recall correctly.

RAW in 3.5 is you get the +2 multiple times in fractional. RAW in PF is that you only get the +2 once in fractional.

[Archmage1]

By the RAW example, you do get the +2 for each multiclass.(Page 73 in UA, take a look at the cleric/fighter example.)

As it is an optional rule, DM's may interpret it otherwise.

[Taelas]

Corrected some minor math mistakes on the cohort's sheet.

Since chaincomplex said we could submit multiple characters, I also, ah, played around with what the cohort would look like if it had been a separate submission on its own... I may have too much time on my hands.

Spoiler: Isera as the PC

Show

Isera
Female Lawful Evil Erinyes Outsider 9/Deepwood Sniper 10, Level 19, Init +14, HP 342/342, DR 5/good, SR 20, Speed 30 ft., fly 50 ft. (good)
AC 50, Touch 29, Flat-footed 36, Fort +22, Ref +32, Will +18, Base Attack Bonus +19/+14/+9/+4
+5 energy bow +39/+39/+34/+29/+24 (2d6+27, 19-20/×5)
+5 bastard sword +36/+31/+26/+21 (1d10+26, 19-20/×2)
entangle silk rope +33 ( , )
bracers of armor +8 (+8 Armor, +14 Dex, +5 Deflect, +13 Natural)
Abilities Str 38, Dex 38, Con 30, Int 24, Wis 22, Cha 32
Condition None

[Thokk_Smash]

Chain, would you allow an Awakened animal as a PC? The spell specifies the animal gets +3d6 Int, +1d3 Cha, and +2HD. I'd rather not gain any animal HD, but I defer to your judgment on what an Awakened Animal's ability score bonuses would be.

[chaincomplex]

EDIT 2: I can also admit that with stronghold stuff thrown in, while I'm used to the complexity of artificer, this is easily the most complex one I've ever built, including one I made for an epic campaign since he just played super-beatstick.

Worth noting this is why I mentioned not having to get all the items written up in the OP until you know you're in the game. It's a lot of work for uncertain reward, which I'm not interested in dumping on anyone.

As far as I'm concerned the crux of a craftificer's build is their cost reduction process.

@chaincomplex Need help with bloodline buyoff. Do we use buy them as standard LA buyoff?

Yes. Per my houserule you treat them as LA. Minor +1, intermediate +2, major +3.

chaincomplex: If we ever level up, I am thinking he would take a level of Marshal. Because of the way BAB works for epic characters, never increasing after level 20, I might be better off taking it now along with a couple of levels of Abjurant Champion. I would lose a caster level for now but get up to BAB +11 which otherwise I could never do. Is that how BAB will work here?

Yep.

Since we are using fractional bab/saves, do we get de +2 to a save from a 1st level in class in multiclassing, or do we get it only once?

For fractional, you only get +2 for a good save once, if I recall correctly.

RAW in 3.5 is you get the +2 multiple times in fractional. RAW in PF is that you only get the +2 once in fractional.

We're interpreting fractional BAB/saves as in Unearthed Arcana. You can get the +2 on good saves multiple times.

It's not lost on me that Pathfinder Unchained did it with more design coherency. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Spoiler: Isera as the PC

Show

Isera
Female Lawful Evil Erinyes Outsider 9/Deepwood Sniper 10, Level 19, Init +14, HP 342/342, DR 5/good, SR 20, Speed 30 ft., fly 50 ft. (good)
AC 50, Touch 29, Flat-footed 36, Fort +22, Ref +32, Will +18, Base Attack Bonus +19/+14/+9/+4
+5 energy bow +39/+39/+34/+29/+24 (2d6+27, 19-20/×5)
+5 bastard sword +36/+31/+26/+21 (1d10+26, 19-20/×2)
entangle silk rope +33 ( , )
bracers of armor +8 (+8 Armor, +14 Dex, +5 Deflect, +13 Natural)
Abilities Str 38, Dex 38, Con 30, Int 24, Wis 22, Cha 32
Condition None

Added.

Chain, would you allow an Awakened animal as a PC? The spell specifies the animal gets +3d6 Int, +1d3 Cha, and +2HD. I'd rather not gain any animal HD, but I defer to your judgment on what an Awakened Animal's ability score bonuses would be.

Yes to the concept, but I don't know what first-party options there are for this. Technically this can't be strictly RAW since basically all animals are LA —. It's not hard to assess per Savage Species that they should mostly have LA +0, of course, so let's go with that reading. Then you can buy a casting of awaken, but you get +2 HD for a total of, say for a cat, 2 or 3 racial HD, depending on how we round fractional HD, which you have to eat in character creation. If you go this route I'm obviously happy to interpret fractional HD as rounding down.

Alternatively, you can toss Celestial Creature or another +Int template onto an animal to get the 3 Int needed to be a playable species. If you pick an animal with 1 or less HD, then per DMG you can grab a class level without eating the first HD. Of course then you're eating LA +2 or so from your template. This can be bought off with XP, of course. Note that with 3 Int, even if you allot as much point buy into Int as you can, you're maxing out at 10 Int. You can obviously improve that score as usual, but my point is this process is stretched.

Do you have another suggestion?

(NB: For obvious reasons I'm not allowing tricks to get awaken cast on anything other than true animals or plants, precluding PCs explicitly.)

[Burning Spear]

Nope. This is a much better implementation, yes. But where D&D and PF overlap I'm going with D&D. The role of allowing limited PF imports is to fill in gaps, not to better D&D.

Yeah, that ruling definitely reduced the value of Able Learner. But Able Learner is a prereq for at least one pretty good generalist PrC so YMMV.

Thanks for the reply, I thought I'd ask about Alertness, seeing how bad the original feat is, O well.

Able Learner still helps imo, so I'll have a think about it. No space for more shenanigans/ PrC's so sticking with what's in my build-post.

[Yas392]

Two handed weapon 1.5 STR mod rounded up or down?

[Archmage1]

Down.

So a strength mod of +3 means +4 damage, whereas a +4 strength mod is +6 damage.

[Burning Spear]

Down.

Archmage, any suggestions as to what useful feat would fit my fluffy build instead of Able Learner? Cheers!

[Archmage1]

I'm afraid that I'm really not understanding what your character is going for.

If you want more cheese and are non-good, undead leadership could work.
The X stat to Y thread might have something useful for you?

[kinem]

Verik has been adjusted as I suggested.

CC, please let me know if the aura is overpowered.

[Feathersnow]

I'm thinking of building an alternative character.

@Chain, how would an incarnum dragon's incarnum abilities increase with a prestige class? By reading "incarnum shaping class" as "age category"?


@anyone else, any suggestions for making One Ear more up to par, or is she suitable as is?

[Archmage1]

@anyone else, any suggestions for making One Ear more up to par, or is she suitable as is?

I think the important part is fluff/basic build. Giving chain an idea of who your character is and what they bring to a party. The selected characters can go through another round of power leveling after the fact.

[Feathersnow]

I think the important part is fluff/basic build. Giving chain an idea of who your character is and what they bring to a party. The selected characters can go through another round of power leveling after the fact.

Fair! I gave an in-person accounting of One Ear's bit a while back, but I should include it in her sheet. Basically, like all Tibbits, she was the descendent of the cat familiar of an epic level Sorcerer. This particular Sorcerer was a powerful lich that used her as a guinea pig for experiments. Her attitude and sorcerous aptitudes got her promoted to apprentice. After adventurers killed the lich, One Ear resolved to find a way to bring him back.

[Infernally Clay]

Yeah I'm not too fussed right now about how strong Haust is right now. If she gets picked I can fine tune it as we go. Druids are certainly the most adaptable class in that sense. The core concept of an ageless portent of death who seeks to use the Noctuary to bring her Death God back is kinda metal. Whether or not the Noctuary can even pull something like that off is something she'll need to find out herself.

[Archmage1]

Same with Eilyra. She's currently configured for the upper midrange of power(As far as I see it): Kind of effective at dealing damage, kind of effective as a wizard, but well behind what could be done with a generous helping of cheese or even generally solid building.

I think that the character is a lot more important.

And then, after selection, getting everyone to roughly the same level of usefulness(Whether that is via reducing someone's power, or increasing someone's power) is also important, because frankly I don't think anyone enjoys playing a character that doesn't feel like they can contribute.

[Aegis013]

I would like to apply with Venator.

Spoiler: Image of Venator

Show

Spoiler: Build Stub

Show

Paladin of Tyranny 4 / Crusader 2 / Ruby Knight Vindicator 1 / Telflammar Shadowlord 4 / Ruby Knight Vindicator +9

Spoiler: Mechanics and numbers

Show

On a perfect round, Venator can self buff by expending a Rebuke Undead on Divine Impetus to gain an extra Swift action to fast cast a Paladin spell via Battle Blessing feat, then unleash a devastating triple full attack by performing Shadow Jaunt, Shadow Stride, and Shadow Blink in a single turn, triggering Shadow Pounce with each maneuver. Due to Crusader's maneuver granted mechanics, it's not something that can be done every round. There's some room to manipulate what's available via RKV's Divine Recovery, but with so many features and feats being fueled by the Rebuke Undead pool, there are limits.

On an ideal opening turn in which all of his attacks land, Venator can output devastating (~500 or so) damage. It requires quite a bit of luck to get the right maneuvers, resources in the form of Rebuke Undead attempts, and it requires all of the final iterative attacks to land despite the significantly reduced attack bonus.

Venator is a ruthless assassin hailing from a Necrocratic society who has become proficient with a combat style that is typically only usable by the undead due to how taxing it is (which is just personal fluff): Shadow Pouncing. He is unable to bring it to full bear continuously (Crusader recovery), but it is a merciless and deadly combat style nonetheless.

His Lich Lord has sent him in search of the Noctuary to use its power to extend the Lord's authority over all of the realms and planes. Whether Venator will uphold vows he was effectively coerced into remains to be seen.

Reasonable stealth and perception capabilities make for a passable scout. Some Paladin (of Tyranny) casting, Telflammar Shadowlord casting, and Crusader maneuvers provide limited utility and defense, but exceptional mobility and damage potential.

I think the only questionable thing is that I'm using Assassin's Stance to qualify for the 2d6 sneak attack requirement of Telflammar Shadowlord. If that's not acceptable, I'll have to rework the whole thing.

[AvatarVecna]

Added characterization to my big post.

[Feathersnow]

I have included a picture of One-Ear. The link might not be stable, but I'm not sure how else to show you all.

[chaincomplex]

@Chain, how would an incarnum dragon's incarnum abilities increase with a prestige class? By reading "incarnum shaping class" as "age category"?

Treat the base incarnum dragon as having meldshaper levels equal to twice its age category, and advance from there. I think this is a coherent extrapolation, let me know if something breaks.

I would like to apply with Venator.

I think the only questionable thing is that I'm using Assassin's Stance to qualify for the 2d6 sneak attack requirement of Telflammar Shadowlord. If that's not acceptable, I'll have to rework the whole thing.

Added.

Assassin's Stance qualification is definitely rules legal and acceptable, though who can say whether it's intended.

[Feathersnow]

Treat the base incarnum dragon as having meldshaper levels equal to twice its age category, and advance from there. I think this is a coherent extrapolation, let me know if something breaks.

Here's the thing- it becomes ambiguous because the amount of soulmelds available is determined by half age category rounded up, not meldshaper level. I suppose I could assume that that's one soulmeld per four prestige class bumps, which is in keeping with a soulborn, which is the class that is called out as the source of available soulmelds.

Edit- my build is a juvenile LE incarnum dragon that prestiges directly into Witchborn Binder. I am working on her in case One Ear is too "goody-goody" for an LE party.

[chaincomplex]

Here's the thing- it becomes ambiguous because the amount of soulmelds available is determined by half age category rounded up, not meldshaper level. I suppose I could assume that that's one soulmeld per four prestige class bumps, which is in keeping with a soulborn, which is the class that is called out as the source of available soulmelds.

Ah, I see the problem. Hm. I think the closest thing to a rules legal interpretation is that you gain a virtual age category for each four meldshaping advancements, purely for the purposes of meldshaping. As you suggest.

Hm. Go with this for now, and let me know if any progression winds up severely stunted as a result.

[Feathersnow]

Ah, I see the problem. Hm. I think the closest thing to a rules legal interpretation is that you gain a virtual age category for each four meldshaping advancements, purely for the purposes of meldshaping. As you suggest.

Hm. Go with this for now, and let me know if any progression winds up severely stunted as a result.

That's actually one virtual age category per two bumps, because only the odd categories get extra soulmelds. This would put me at effective Meldshaper level 9 with two soulmelds at character creation, because Witchborn Binder is a half-progression class. However, it makes up for that with custom incarnum-like abilities and bonus essentia, capacity for which is still tied to HD, not level.


[EDIT]Wait- I might only get one soulmeld, depending on your ruling? I was going based on Shaper level/4.

So... I'm not terribly stunted, I think(?), and Incarnum dragons get UMD as a class skill, so I synergize with AvatarVecna.

[chaincomplex]

That's actually one virtual age category per two bumps, because only the odd categories get extra soulmelds. This would put me at effective Meldshaper level 9 with two soulmelds at character creation, because Witchborn Binder is a half-progression class. However, it makes up for that with custom incarnum-like abilities and bonus essentia, capacity for which is still tied to HD, not level.

Yep, that was a brain freeze. One age category per two meldshaping steps.

[EDIT]Wait- I might only get one soulmeld, depending on your ruling? I was going based on Shaper level/4.

So... I'm not terribly stunted, I think(?), and Incarnum dragons get UMD as a class skill, so I synergize with AvatarVecna.

You only get one more soulmeld by this reading. The incarnate dragon already had stunted soulmeld growth, then on top of that the Witchborn Binder has further stunted meldshaping growth.