The Noctuary (D&D 3.5e, Level 20+ Adventure)

[Feathersnow]

You can submit multiple characters. I think I forgot to respond to JNA.

Honestly, my other character is awful from an RP and Rules perspective. I just didn't want to step on their toes with a different interpretation of Tibbit lore.

[chaincomplex]

Can we submit multiple characters?

I'm asking because one of the original characters is a DFA, and I'd rather not do too much toe-stepping.

Edit: Metaphysical Spellshaper is a yes or no? Page 81, BoEF. (Not sure why that's the book it's in, but it is. :P )

Yep, did forget to respond. So, like I mentioned, you can submit multiple. BoEF I'm pretty sure is 3rd-party and not allowed.

there are a few different ways this can be handled it could take three levels (19-21) or a similar exp cost could occur <-45,000 exp> but taking additional respective levels to buy them off.

I would like your opinion on how you would handle that.

I think per RAW LA buy off doesn't work this way. It would be calculated assuming you had Fire-Souled from 1st level. So with +6 LA, let's say, you would only get a chance to buy off one LA at level 18.

[samduke]

I think per RAW LA buy off doesn't work this way. It would be calculated assuming you had Fire-Souled from 1st level. So with +6 LA, let's say, you would only get a chance to buy off one LA at level 18.

well not sure either hense the comment about just eating the fire souled la+3 when taken

Spoiler: ECL breakdown

Show

Human
Obah-Blessed LA +2

Character Level 19 ; EXP Level 20 (i think the exp totals, deductions are correct )
Martial Rogue 2/Scout 5/Dervish 3/Disciple of Dispater 8/OA Shadow Scout 1

(notation I realized that i need to take shadow scout before DOD but that should not change the fractionals)
>>>>Martial Rogue 2/Scout 5/Dervish 3/OA Shadow Scout 1/Disciple of Dispater 8<<<<

BAB: 17.25
Fort: 9.83
Ref: 11.33
Will: 10.16

fractional bab / saves
CL: BAB Fort Ref Will
01: 0.75 0.33 2.5 0.33
02: 0.75 0.33 0.5 0.33
03: 0.75 0.33 0.5 0.33
04: 0.75 0.33 0.5 0.33
05: 0.75 0.33 0.5 0.33
06: 0.75 0.33 0.5 0.33 [EXP 15,000]
07: Obah-Blessed Level Adjustment Buy Off (ECL 7-1x1000= 6,000) [EXP 21,000-6,000=15,000]
08: 0.75 0.33 0.5 0.33 [EXP 15,000+7,000=22,000]
09: 1.00 0.33 0.5 2.5 [EXP 22,000+8,000=30,000]
10: Obah-Blessed Level Adjustment Buy Off (ECL 10-1x1000= 9,000) [EXP 39,000-9000=30,000]
11: 1.00 0.33 0.5 0.5 [EXP 30,000+10,000=40,000]
12: 1.00 0.33 0.5 0.5 [EXP 40,000+11,000=51,000]
13: 1.00 2.5 0.5 0.5 [EXP 51,000+12,000=63,000]
14: 1.00 0.5 0.5 0.5 [EXP 63,000+13,000=76,000]
15: 1.00 0.5 0.5 0.5 [EXP 76,000+14,000=90,000]
16: 1.00 0.5 0.5 0.5 [EXP 90,000+15,000=105,000]
17: 1.00 0.5 0.5 0.5 [EXP 105,000+16,000=121,000]
18: 1.00 0.5 0.5 0.5 [EXP 121,000+17,000=138,000]
19: 1.00 0.5 0.5 0.5 [EXP 138,000+18,000=156,000]
20: 1.00 0.5 0.5 0.5 [EXP 156,000+19,000=175,000]
21: 1.00 0.5 0.33 0.33 [EXP 175,000+20,000=195,000] 195,000 of 200,000 exp

[GentlemanVoodoo]

@chaincomplex

I'll post interest for this but had a couple of request and a rule clarification.

Requests:

1. I was planning to go with a Archivist / Binder build and want to check if the Divine adaption of the Anima Mage PRC was allowable? In short final build would be a Binder/Archivist/Anima Mage/Tenebrous Apostate.

2. For the Tenebrous Apostate, would there be an issue to changing the fluff to a different individual other than Tenebrous?

3. Would there be an issue to use the Faerie Mysteries Initiate feat (Dragon 319). Looking at the Passions option to use Int for hit points.

Rule Clarification:

1. I had read that for non-arcane casters to gain a familiar it would require to gain a spell-like ability from sources like a feat (such as Fey Legacy) or a template where a caster level is provided for said effect. Same for non-psionic characters using similar sources to get a psicrystal. Is this correct that these alternative sources can meet the prerequisites of the needed caster/manifester levels for feats like Obtain Familiar or Psycrystal Affinity?

On the one hand I see where this is coming from, but I am not sure if correct from a RAW standpoint.

[AvatarVecna]

No, unless you can argue that for a roughly similar price you can obtain haste or a similarly powerful effect permanently via published magic items.

I'm open to custom magic items to be clear. I'm just making special adjudications for continuous spell effects for the obvious reasons.

Just to be clear, the other custom item effects are all generally on the table. It's just that spell effects, I would need to present a case that a given spell effect would be reasonably affordable via methods other than the "continuous spell effect" cost on the custom table?

[chaincomplex]

well not sure either hense the comment about just eating the fire souled la+3 when taken

Spoiler: ECL breakdown

Show

Human
Obah-Blessed LA +2

Character Level 19 ; EXP Level 20 (i think the exp totals, deductions are correct )
Martial Rogue 2/Scout 5/Dervish 3/Disciple of Dispater 8/OA Shadow Scout 1

(notation I realized that i need to take shadow scout before DOD but that should not change the fractionals)
>>>>Martial Rogue 2/Scout 5/Dervish 3/OA Shadow Scout 1/Disciple of Dispater 8<<<<

BAB: 17.25
Fort: 9.83
Ref: 11.33
Will: 10.16

fractional bab / saves
CL: BAB Fort Ref Will
01: 0.75 0.33 2.5 0.33
02: 0.75 0.33 0.5 0.33
03: 0.75 0.33 0.5 0.33
04: 0.75 0.33 0.5 0.33
05: 0.75 0.33 0.5 0.33
06: 0.75 0.33 0.5 0.33 [EXP 15,000]
07: Obah-Blessed Level Adjustment Buy Off (ECL 7-1x1000= 6,000) [EXP 21,000-6,000=15,000]
08: 0.75 0.33 0.5 0.33 [EXP 15,000+7,000=22,000]
09: 1.00 0.33 0.5 2.5 [EXP 22,000+8,000=30,000]
10: Obah-Blessed Level Adjustment Buy Off (ECL 10-1x1000= 9,000) [EXP 39,000-9000=30,000]
11: 1.00 0.33 0.5 0.5 [EXP 30,000+10,000=40,000]
12: 1.00 0.33 0.5 0.5 [EXP 40,000+11,000=51,000]
13: 1.00 2.5 0.5 0.5 [EXP 51,000+12,000=63,000]
14: 1.00 0.5 0.5 0.5 [EXP 63,000+13,000=76,000]
15: 1.00 0.5 0.5 0.5 [EXP 76,000+14,000=90,000]
16: 1.00 0.5 0.5 0.5 [EXP 90,000+15,000=105,000]
17: 1.00 0.5 0.5 0.5 [EXP 105,000+16,000=121,000]
18: 1.00 0.5 0.5 0.5 [EXP 121,000+17,000=138,000]
19: 1.00 0.5 0.5 0.5 [EXP 138,000+18,000=156,000]
20: 1.00 0.5 0.5 0.5 [EXP 156,000+19,000=175,000]
21: 1.00 0.5 0.33 0.33 [EXP 175,000+20,000=195,000] 195,000 of 200,000 exp

Your chart is shifted down by one. Your buy off happens at levels 6 and 9. I'm not sure why levels go up to 21 here either, plus 21st level happens at 210,000 XP.

1. I was planning to go with a Archivist / Binder build and want to check if the Divine adaption of the Anima Mage PRC was allowable? In short final build would be a Binder/Archivist/Anima Mage/Tenebrous Apostate.

2. For the Tenebrous Apostate, would there be an issue to changing the fluff to a different individual other than Tenebrous?

3. Would there be an issue to use the Faerie Mysteries Initiate feat (Dragon 319). Looking at the Passions option to use Int for hit points.

1. This doesn't appear to be mentioned in ToM, so I'm generically not allowing it. That said, the Southern Magician trick mentioned elsewhere would work to qualify.
2. There might be. The class very heavily references Tenebrous directly so it's not like a simple fluff switch. Who did you have in mind?
3. Go for it.

1. I had read that for non-arcane casters to gain a familiar it would require to gain a spell-like ability from sources like a feat (such as Fey Legacy) or a template where a caster level is provided for said effect. Same for non-psionic characters using similar sources to get a psicrystal. Is this correct that these alternative sources can meet the prerequisites of the needed caster/manifester levels for feats like Obtain Familiar or Psycrystal Affinity?

By my reading this is straight up ambiguous, namely does the "arcane caster level" being referred to point at the term of art caster level or the term of art arcane caster. So I'm going to make a ruling in your favor: it counts.

Just to be clear, the other custom item effects are all generally on the table. It's just that spell effects, I would need to present a case that a given spell effect would be reasonably affordable via methods other than the "continuous spell effect" cost on the custom table?

Custom magic weapons and armors I almost certainly will have no issue with. Most others run them by me, I'll probably OK. For at-will or continuous wondrous items is where potential problems crop up. This is like, is a continuous magic item of transcend mortality really worth only ~300,000 gp, and that's before other modifiers reduce the cost further? A well-built artificer could probably grab this for as little as 50,000 gp.

This is one of those places where I would have to compare and contrast to what similar effects would cost normally, and my only sources are basically other published items. If you can make an argument that such a pricing is correct, and substantiate it in any non-spurious way, I'll accept it. I'm pretty sure a permanent transcend mortality is straight up an epic effect, for reference, so this is an example of something that shouldn't work.

[paradox26]

Not a question, but an answer to your earlier bit about leaving Athas for the wider planes- bit harder than just planeshift, sad to say. You have to get suicidally lost in the Deep Ethereal and then find the right (or wrong) colored gate. Little bit of hoop jumping for backstory, but easily done.

According to Athas.org there are at least two artefacts that will allow you to travel to the outer planes. One is held by Dregoth, the undead dragon king. I can't recall where the other one is. I think it is just found out in the desert somewhere, but not sure.

[AvatarVecna]

Custom magic weapons and armors I almost certainly will have no issue with. Most others run them by me, I'll probably OK. For at-will or continuous wondrous items is where potential problems crop up. This is like, is a continuous magic item of transcend mortality really worth only ~300,000 gp, and that's before other modifiers reduce the cost further? A well-built artificer could probably grab this for as little as 50,000 gp.

This is one of those places where I would have to compare and contrast to what similar effects would cost normally, and my only sources are basically other published items. If you can make an argument that such a pricing is correct, and substantiate it in any non-spurious way, I'll accept it. I'm pretty sure a permanent transcend mortality is straight up an epic effect, for reference, so this is an example of something that shouldn't work.

I'm looking at pivoting to artificer since someone's already doing an archer, so quite relevant to me. I'll do some sample spells, and you let me know how off-base my reasoning is.

Spoiler: Haste

Show

Haste is a lvl 3 spell, cast at CL 5, with a 1 round/lvl duration. 3x5x2000x4 = 120000 gp. That'd be the normal pricing according to the custom rules, although there's cheesy ways to get it cheaper. But let's ignore that.

Haste gives the following effects:

• Attack +1 (untyped)
• AC +1 (dodge)
• Ref +1 (dodge)
• All speeds +30 ft (enhancement)
• 1 additional attack on a full attack

The cost for an AC bonus of a nonstandard type is 2500x^2, so this probably costs that much, even if dodge isn't explicitly on the list. The difference between AC +1 (dodge) and AC +1 (insight) is basically just fluff anyway. 2500 gp.

The cost for a save bonus of a nonstandard type is 2000x^2, but that's a bonus to all 3 saves. Ref +1 (dodge) probably costs 1/3rd of that. 666 gp.

Lesser Bracers Of Archery give proficiency with all bows, and attack +1 (competence). We're giving up the proficiency, and upgrading the bonus type from competence to untyped, so let's call that a wash and say that Attack +1 (untyped) costs the same as these bracers. 5000 gp.

Horseshoes Of Speed give +30 (enhancement) to land speed, but only for hooved animals. We could say this is roughly equivalent to "item requires a specific class to use", so double this would give us a reasonable price for land speed +30 ft (enhancement) for a single person. However, that's only applying to land speed, so let's double it again to apply it to multiple speed types. 12000 gp.

If you took a +1 weapon and applied Speed to it, the market price would increase by 30000 gp. If you took a +7 weapon and applied Speed to it, the market price would increase by 102000 gp. So applying the Speed properly to a weapon would increase the market price by an average of 66000 gp. Some people will basically always use one weapon, while switch-hitters and dual-wielders will use two frequently enough. So for one of them, continuous +1 attack per turn is worth 66k, for the other it's worth 132k; let's split the difference. 99000 gp.

2500 + 666 + 5000 + 12000 + 99000 = 119166 gp.

Conclusion: 120000 gp is probably actually a fair price?

Spoiler: Transcend Mortality

Show

First of all, an item of continuous Transcend Mortality is not 300k, even by the continuous-spell-effect rules. It is a lvl 9 spell, cast at CL 17, with a 1 round/lvl duration. [Spell Level] x [Caster Level] x [2000] x [Duration Modifier] = 9x17x2000x4 = 1224000 gp. But let's ignore that and see what things might cost if we actually tried to build this item out.

Transcend Mortality gives the following effects:

• DR 30/epic
• SR 38
• Energy Resistance 50 to all 5 energy types
• Saves +10 (enhancement)
• Immunity (eat/drink/breathe)
• Immunity (ability damage, disease, energy drain, poison, death effects)
• Immediately kills you if the spell ever ends

For DR we're gonna have to get tricky. There's a series of shirts in the MIC that give DR 3 with various bypass methods. DR 3/[bludgeoning/piercing/slashing] is 9000 gp. DR 3/magic is 12000 gp. DR 3/[alignment/material] is 15000 gp. We can maybe assume that DR 3/[epic/-] is 18000 gp. Assumig this follows the standard Nx^2 formula, this means DR/[epic/-\ costs about 2000x^2, so DR 10/epic or DR 10/- would cost about 200000 gp. This feels like roughly the price WotC would give it, especially as it compares to weapons. Thus, DR 30/epic costs either 1,800,000 gp or 18,000,000 gp (depending on if you think the epic x10 cost multiplier is silly or not).

Mantle Of Epic Spell Resistance is SR 40 for 290000 gp. This is more or less following the nonepic formula although it's slightly wrong, so I'll assume that's just a mistake or like a change in how the spell resistance spell changed between editions. Using the base formula, SR 38-12=26, and it's 10k per point above 12. 260000 gp. x10 doesn't apply here because we already know it doesn't because the epic item is following the nonepic pricing.

If we put Acid Resistance 10 on armor, it costs 18k. If we put AR 20 on, it costs 42k. If we put AR 30 on, it costs 66k. Each +10 to acid resistance increases the price by 24000 gp. Thus, Acid Resistance 50 would cost 114000 gp if we were allowed to extrapolate. Multiply that by 5 to cover all energy types, and we can price ER 50 (all) at 570000 gp.

Saves +10 (enhancement) is pretty straightforward. This is either 100000 gp or 1,000,000 gp, depending on whether you think the epic x10 cost multiple is silly or not.

Periapt Of Health: disease immunity for 7400 gp. Periapt Of Proof Against Poison: poison immunity for 27000 gp. Ring Of Sustenance: immunity to eating and drinking for 2500 gp. Necklace Of Adaption: immunity to need to breathe for 9000 gp. As for the rest...there isn't really effects that give all-day protection against these things except a hypothetical custom item of continuous Death Ward. Such a thing would cost 112000 gp if that price was allowed, which feels reasonable, but I don't really have any existing items I can point to that indicate what a reasonable price would even be. Like...ring of freedom of movement costs 40k, and that's comparable level/usefulness to death ward? Like I think death ward is definitely better than freedom of movement, but not like "pay more than triple price for it" better, you know?

Finally, the "kills you if it ever ends" part. 3.5 has no guidance for how a curse like this affects the pricing, but PF does. Really debilitating curses (like...gives you a negative level) reduces the item price by half, so let's go ahead and say that's what an "death if you ever remove this item" curse would do.

If the epic x10 cost multiplier is considered silly: [1800000 + 260000 + 570000 + 100000 + 7400 + 27000 + 2500 + 9000 + 112000] / 2 = 1,443,950 gp.

If the epic x10 cost multiplier is not considered silly: [18000000 + 260000 + 570000 + 1000000 + 7400 + 27000 + 2500 + 9000 + 112000] / 2 = 9,993,950 gp.

Conclusion: if you think the epic x10 cost multiplier is silly, 1,224,000 gp is maybe a bit cheaper than expected, but still somewhat within the bounds of a reasonable price. 1,440,000 is probably more appropriate, though - and roughly equivalent to Con +38 (enhancement) with no multiplier. If you think the epic x10 cost multiplier is reasonable, this costs about 10 million gp - roughly equivalent to Con +30 (enhancement) with the multiplier.

I'm personally of the opinion that the x10 thing only exists to keep "epic effects" unaffordable pre-epic, and that the actual effect it has on the game is further punishing noncasters (since caster level is like the only thing the x10 doesn't apply to, so scrolls and staves don't have to care about this nonsense but anyone getting a lot of +number items has to live with it). But you might feel differently.

EDIT: Transcend Mortality at-will would cost 306000 gp, which is still too high to buy pre-epic anyway, but also comes with the drawback of only lasting 17 rounds at a time before you have to spend a standard action to re-cast it, and also the drawback of killing you when the duration runs out, and also the drawback of turning every dispel attempt on you into a SoD.

EDIT 2: I found another helpful data point. Ring Of Ironskin is an epic magic item that gives DR 15/adamantine for 400000 gp. MIC has the Shirt Of Ironskin, which gives DR 3/adamantine for 15000 gp. 15 is five times as big as 3, so if we multiply the shirt cost x5 x5 it should give us the approximate cost for a DR 15/adamantine item. Which would be...375000 gp. So not only is this formula (1666x^2) reasonably accurate based on our two DR/adamantine items, but it also indicates that items giving DR don't have to deal with the epic x10 cost multiplier.

EDIT 3: I'll also say that, while I think this two particular prices are at least somewhat close to fair, there's a lot of spell effects that aren't anywhere close to a fair price, either being way too cheap or way too expensive. "Too cheap" is really easy to find when spells are made half-cost through artificer shenanigans replicating the casting of weird PrCs, for example. An item of Swift Fly is going to be cheaper than its effect should cost. But also like...Choose Destiny is another effect that hypothetically costs 1224000 gp, but because it's just 2d20b1 for everything (roughly +4 on everything, with crit fails less common/crits more common), it's like a hundred times worse than Transcend Mortality, even taking into account how TM kills you when it's over.

[chaincomplex]

According to Athas.org there are at least two artefacts that will allow you to travel to the outer planes. One is held by Dregoth, the undead dragon king. I can't recall where the other one is. I think it is just found out in the desert somewhere, but not sure.

By my reading I think wish can also transport the PC, since it absolutely doesn't require a nice cosmology to work. Of course, good luck finding a wishcaster in Athas, but at 20th level this is probably doable.

Spoiler: Haste

Show

Haste is a lvl 3 spell, cast at CL 5, with a 1 round/lvl duration. 3x5x2000x4 = 120000 gp. That'd be the normal pricing according to the custom rules, although there's cheesy ways to get it cheaper. But let's ignore that.

Haste gives the following effects:

• Attack +1 (untyped)
• AC +1 (dodge)
• Ref +1 (dodge)
• All speeds +30 ft (enhancement)
• 1 additional attack on a full attack

The cost for an AC bonus of a nonstandard type is 2500x^2, so this probably costs that much, even if dodge isn't explicitly on the list. The difference between AC +1 (dodge) and AC +1 (insight) is basically just fluff anyway. 2500 gp.

The cost for a save bonus of a nonstandard type is 2000x^2, but that's a bonus to all 3 saves. Ref +1 (dodge) probably costs 1/3rd of that. 666 gp.

Lesser Bracers Of Archery give proficiency with all bows, and attack +1 (competence). We're giving up the proficiency, and upgrading the bonus type from competence to untyped, so let's call that a wash and say that Attack +1 (untyped) costs the same as these bracers. 5000 gp.

Horseshoes Of Speed give +30 (enhancement) to land speed, but only for hooved animals. We could say this is roughly equivalent to "item requires a specific class to use", so double this would give us a reasonable price for land speed +30 ft (enhancement) for a single person. However, that's only applying to land speed, so let's double it again to apply it to multiple speed types. 12000 gp.

If you took a +1 weapon and applied Speed to it, the market price would increase by 30000 gp. If you took a +7 weapon and applied Speed to it, the market price would increase by 102000 gp. So applying the Speed properly to a weapon would increase the market price by an average of 66000 gp. Some people will basically always use one weapon, while switch-hitters and dual-wielders will use two frequently enough. So for one of them, continuous +1 attack per turn is worth 66k, for the other it's worth 132k; let's split the difference. 99000 gp.

2500 + 666 + 5000 + 12000 + 99000 = 119166 gp.

Conclusion: 120000 gp is probably actually a fair price?

You're on base, I would consider this line of reasoning as strong justification for the relevant custom magic item.

Spoiler: Transcend Mortality

Show

First of all, an item of continuous Transcend Mortality is not 300k, even by the continuous-spell-effect rules. It is a lvl 9 spell, cast at CL 17, with a 1 round/lvl duration. [Spell Level] x [Caster Level] x [2000] x [Duration Modifier] = 9x17x2000x4 = 1224000 gp. But let's ignore that and see what things might cost if we actually tried to build this item out.

Transcend Mortality gives the following effects:

• DR 30/epic
• SR 38
• Energy Resistance 50 to all 5 energy types
• Saves +10 (enhancement)
• Immunity (eat/drink/breathe)
• Immunity (ability damage, disease, energy drain, poison, death effects)
• Immediately kills you if the spell ever ends

For DR we're gonna have to get tricky. There's a series of shirts in the MIC that give DR 3 with various bypass methods. DR 3/[bludgeoning/piercing/slashing] is 9000 gp. DR 3/magic is 12000 gp. DR 3/[alignment/material] is 15000 gp. We can maybe assume that DR 3/[epic/-] is 18000 gp. Assumig this follows the standard Nx^2 formula, this means DR/[epic/-\ costs about 2000x^2, so DR 10/epic or DR 10/- would cost about 200000 gp. This feels like roughly the price WotC would give it, especially as it compares to weapons. Thus, DR 30/epic costs either 1,800,000 gp or 18,000,000 gp (depending on if you think the epic x10 cost multiplier is silly or not).

Mantle Of Epic Spell Resistance is SR 40 for 290000 gp. This is more or less following the nonepic formula although it's slightly wrong, so I'll assume that's just a mistake or like a change in how the spell resistance spell changed between editions. Using the base formula, SR 38-12=26, and it's 10k per point above 12. 260000 gp. x10 doesn't apply here because we already know it doesn't because the epic item is following the nonepic pricing.

If we put Acid Resistance 10 on armor, it costs 18k. If we put AR 20 on, it costs 42k. If we put AR 30 on, it costs 66k. Each +10 to acid resistance increases the price by 24000 gp. Thus, Acid Resistance 50 would cost 114000 gp if we were allowed to extrapolate. Multiply that by 5 to cover all energy types, and we can price ER 50 (all) at 570000 gp.

Saves +10 (enhancement) is pretty straightforward. This is either 100000 gp or 1,000,000 gp, depending on whether you think the epic x10 cost multiple is silly or not.

Periapt Of Health: disease immunity for 7400 gp. Periapt Of Proof Against Poison: poison immunity for 27000 gp. Ring Of Sustenance: immunity to eating and drinking for 2500 gp. Necklace Of Adaption: immunity to need to breathe for 9000 gp. As for the rest...there isn't really effects that give all-day protection against these things except a hypothetical custom item of continuous Death Ward. Such a thing would cost 112000 gp if that price was allowed, which feels reasonable, but I don't really have any existing items I can point to that indicate what a reasonable price would even be. Like...ring of freedom of movement costs 40k, and that's comparable level/usefulness to death ward? Like I think death ward is definitely better than freedom of movement, but not like "pay more than triple price for it" better, you know?

Finally, the "kills you if it ever ends" part. 3.5 has no guidance for how a curse like this affects the pricing, but PF does. Really debilitating curses (like...gives you a negative level) reduces the item price by half, so let's go ahead and say that's what an "death if you ever remove this item" curse would do.

If the epic x10 cost multiplier is considered silly: [1800000 + 260000 + 570000 + 100000 + 7400 + 27000 + 2500 + 9000 + 112000] / 2 = 1,443,950 gp.

If the epic x10 cost multiplier is not considered silly: [18000000 + 260000 + 570000 + 1000000 + 7400 + 27000 + 2500 + 9000 + 112000] / 2 = 9,993,950 gp.

Conclusion: if you think the epic x10 cost multiplier is silly, 1,224,000 gp is maybe a bit cheaper than expected, but still somewhat within the bounds of a reasonable price. 1,440,000 is probably more appropriate, though - and roughly equivalent to Con +38 (enhancement) with no multiplier. If you think the epic x10 cost multiplier is reasonable, this costs about 10 million gp - roughly equivalent to Con +30 (enhancement) with the multiplier.

I'm personally of the opinion that the x10 thing only exists to keep "epic effects" unaffordable pre-epic, and that the actual effect it has on the game is further punishing noncasters (since caster level is like the only thing the x10 doesn't apply to, so scrolls and staves don't have to care about this nonsense but anyone getting a lot of +number items has to live with it). But you might feel differently.

You're not wrong about the x10 epic cost adjustment being nuts and I was thinking about this earlier. As you say, a spellcaster scales into the epic levels without needing epic magic items to nearly the same degree mundanes do. But we'll be using it, not because it's necessarily good game design, but because I don't want to deviate from RAW here. I'm willing to take the shot that dumping appropriate wealth onto the party just means the spellcaster pursues RP projects on the side like strongholds, while martials spend the wealth on Sword with Bigger Number.

Good call on the x4 on transcend mortality, I forgot that rule. I guess a better example of poorly priced custom magic items would be one of continuous shield or something similar, it shouldn't be hard to come up with other examples.

Here I would add that there is an example of continuous spell effects that get priced without heed for epic pricing adjustments, the cowl of warding. This supports the believability of the 1.2m price tag on continual transcend mortality. Anyways, if a character is willing to dump 1.2m worth of wealth or equivalent conversions into time, XP, and crafting supplies into getting a spell effect permanent, I'd probably let them.

By the way, regardless of what I said about artificers previously, feel free to build one. I don't have anything against optimized crafting since it doesn't really step on any toes.

[remetagross]

AvatarVecna, your computations are fascinating. They show that the custom rules are more or less on point, for these two items anyway. Of course, if you take Swift Haste instead of Haste for the basis of the Haste custom item, it all falls apart.

[AvatarVecna]

AvatarVecna, your computations are fascinating. They show that the custom rules are more or less on point, for these two items anyway. Of course, if you take Swift Haste instead of Haste for the basis of the Haste custom item, it all falls apart.

Yeah, same with Swift Fly like I mentioned in one of my edits. There's also a number of spells that don't have a cheat like that but are nonetheless too cheap for what they give (like Shield, as the DM mentioned). And tbh this is true for most things in the system. If you said "spellcasters are broken", you're generally correct, but if you look at individual spells...like 90% of them are just trash never worth casting. It's just that as a spellcaster, you can choose to only pick spells known from the 10% that's not trash, and suddenly you're way more powerful than you should be. Similarly, most spells are decently-priced via the custom rules, and tend to be overpriced more often than not. But there's some where the continuous price is nowhere close to reasonable, even some where no price could possibly be reasonable (usually Wish or Miracle).

By the way, regardless of what I said about artificers previously, feel free to build one. I don't have anything against optimized crafting since it doesn't really step on any toes.

It's good to have a game where someone is allowing it, but is also aware of just how ridiculous it can get if players are left to go whole hog. I feel like every time I go to build an artificer, I ask at every step of the path if a particular way of making items cheaper is fine, and the DM always says yes cuz in their head they're thinking it can't ever get as good as nigh-epic casters, and then the end product has effectively like 10 times as much money as it's supposed to and is basically invincible melee bruiser and suddenly it's a problem.

The main thing that makes me nervous about epic artificer is actually this:

Anyways, if a character is willing to dump 1.2m worth of wealth or equivalent conversions into time, XP, and crafting supplies into getting a spell effect permanent, I'd probably let them.

If I wanted to take Craft Wondrous Item and double my money, I'd have to spend 67200 XP over the course of my career, and spend 4.6 years working 8 hours a day to get them made. The time isn't an issue when it's in my backstory, and the XP is less of an issue since XP is a river (which is the phenomenon that LA Reduction is based on, more or less). but it doesn't help me as much going forward. We get 50k each as the reward for our first quest, and I've gotta spend 4000 XP and 3 months of downtime to get my extra gold. And that's if I'm not taking anything that reduces the gp price even further.

There's ways around having XP and time costs ruin game, but they tend to be very cheesy. Oh yeah I've just set up shop in a plane where time passes instantly so it'll only take me 5 minutes to craft all this stuff. Oh and I've got a dungeon set up below my forge with a whole bunch of people trapped in the BDSM-Matrix, feeling pleasure while generating tons of Liquid Pain. My extra gold is now completely free - which is maybe fine for me since crafting is my whole schtick but is a problem if any casters decide to set up something similar on top of their casting.

You're not wrong about the x10 epic cost adjustment being nuts and I was thinking about this earlier. As you say, a spellcaster scales into the epic levels without needing epic magic items to nearly the same degree mundanes do. But we'll be using it, not because it's necessarily good game design, but because I don't want to deviate from RAW here. I'm willing to take the shot that dumping appropriate wealth onto the party just means the spellcaster pursues RP projects on the side like strongholds, while martials spend the wealth on Sword with Bigger Number.

One thing I'm looking at a lot is the Stronghold Builder's Guidebook. This is partly because I like the idea of having a base of operations we can Gate to when we want to relax and stuff, but also because I'm debating setting myself up in a ToS style Cube, essentially a tiny invincible office shaped like a Huge suit of armor that I fly around in like a Gundam.

[remetagross]

AvatarVecna, how about we envisioned the situation from the other end?

Let's say you've already built a 20th-level artificer. You've taken all the feats, items, Homonculus crafters, making super high Craft checks, etc. to reduce crafting time as much as possible - disregarding fast-time planes. What would be the end result of 3 months of crafting 8 hours a day compressed this way? Can you get it down to a reasonable amount of time, like a few days?

And if we throw the spellcasting service of a Genesis demiplane with fast time in the mix?

[AvatarVecna]

AvatarVecna, how about we envisioned the situation from the other end?

Let's say you've already built a 20th-level artificer. You've taken all the feats, items, Homonculus crafters, making super high Craft checks, etc. to reduce crafting time as much as possible - disregarding fast-time planes. What would be the end result of 3 months of crafting 8 hours a day compressed this way? Can you get it down to a reasonable amount of time, like a few days?

And if we throw the spellcasting service of a Genesis demiplane with fast time in the mix?

Spoiler: long version

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> You've taken all the feats

15 feats to choose, but not all of them can be crafting stuff unfortunately. Call it Extraordinary Artisan, Exceptional Artisan, Legendary Artisan, Magical Artisan applied to the previous three feats, Apprentice (Craftsman). That's about half my feats.

> Homunculus crafters

These guys don't actually speed up the crafting process per se. It's more like how I could spend 20 minutes carefully frying chicken by hand, vs popping some frozen fried chicken into the oven for 20 minutes; I receive fried chicken in the same amount of time, it's just in one of those scenarios I could go adventuring while my chicken is cooking. I can still only be working on one magic item at a time. If I had an army of them, they could crank out mundane items really quickly, but magic ones wouldn't get produced any faster than if I were sitting in the forge all day myself.

> making super high Craft checks

This doesn't actually speed up the crafting process for magic items. For mundane items, your crafting check determines the speed at which you finish, but for magic items all that matters is the market price and your time cost ratio from feats and stuff. Hypothetically if the DM made me have to provide the base item first (say, a scarf, or a suit of full plate), I could choose to buy it, or craft it myself, in which case a high craft check would make that particular part of it go faster - maybe a lot faster. For example, if I'm making a set of full plate, I have to make 15000 points worth of progress.

If I have +8, then I make 324 points of progression per week, and it takes me 46 weeks/2 days/0 hours/35 minutes/6 rounds to finish (where a day is 8 hours of crafting).

If I have +80, then I make 8100 points of progress per week, and it takes me 1 week/5 days/7 hours/42 minutes/3 rounds to finish.

If I have +800, then I make 656100 points of progress per week, and it takes me 0 weeks/0 days/1 hour/16 minutes/9 rounds to finish.

But whether it's 46 weeks or 86 minutes or a single round cuz Fabricate, it doesn't matter because that's on top of the time to actually enchant the item in question, which on its own is gonna be sloooooow in a way that Craft checks don't affect.

> etc

If DM agrees that infusions counts for PrCs requiring Arcane Caster Level, I could dip Maester for x0.5 time cost. Since dragon magazine is on the table, I could get a Wand of "Research Aid" (lvl 4 spell from DM 342 pg 58) for another x0.5 time cost. Finally, if I don't craft post-chargen until we're epic, I could take Efficient Crafter (Exceptional Artisan) for x0.1 time cost. Technically, I could also use those "restricted to X/Y/Z" things, but those would also reduce GP/XP so the final effect would essentially be the same amount of time spent making more stuff.

Final costs: normal / triple-restricted
GP = market price x0.253125 / 0.0759375
XP = market price x0.0225 / 0.00675
Time = market price x0.0000140625 / 0.00000421875

Assuming standard treasure, and a 6-man party, we can probably expect to receive about 175000 gp worth of stuff on the way from 20th to 21st level. I could spend that buying 175000 gp worth of other stuff, or I could spend it making 691358 gp worth of other stuff. If I make it myself, then it'll also cost 15555 XP (nearly everything we gained from almost leveling), and take 10 days. Oh and cuz of how XP expenditure works, since this just got us up to 21st lvl I couldn't actually spend all that XP, so I couldn't actually get my full gp value of magic items unless I found a way to bypass the XP cost. If i'm using triple-restricted, I could spend it making 2304526 gp worth of other stuff, which would still cost 15555 XP and take 10 days.

Conclusion

It's just an aspect of epic that's hard to work around unless you're functionally ignoring it. A standard crafter can make 1000 gp worth per day. With all the stuff I've listed here, including the PrC I don't qualify for by RAW, including the epic thing I don't have yet, including those cheesy restrictions, I could craft about 237000 gp worth per day, or about 1.6 million per week. But the restrictions are the least likely to get approved tbh. So probably 71000 gp.

Meanwhile, you know how fast y'all could acquire new items via purchasing? Probably buy literally anything you could afford within minutes, no matter how big that number is. Divination spell to find a merchant, teleport spell to reach the mercant, minutes spent haggling, teleport back. As long as there's someone in the multiverse selling what you're looking for, I'm falling behind. And that 71000 gp, that's basically as high as it can possibly get. It'll be the same limit at lvl 30, or 40, or 100, because I've got all the stuff already.

Short version: no matter what, maximum crafting rate without time shenanigans is 71000 market price per day. A single CR 20 encounter gives us 80000 gp worth of treasure in total, so just a few encounters a day will outpace my ability to craft what I receive. And that 71000 gp limit makes an assumption of how cool our DM is with crafting cost reduction shenanigans. I could increase that to 237000 per day, but the DM won't (and tbh shouldn't) approve that.

> And if we throw the spellcasting service of a Genesis demiplane with fast time in the mix?

If time shenanigans like this (or Teleport Through Time) get approved, then yeah basically nothing else matters. I could build so that crafting a million gp takes me 3 years or 2 weeks, and it doesn't matter because either way I'm popping out 6 seconds after I left to start working.

EDIT: I will say, lvl 21 is where it'll be the least painful. My craft rate will max out, but the money y'all have for buying stuff will still be pretty low. If the game lasts a good bit though, there will come a point where unless we're already getting lots of downtime, me upgrading my stuff is gonna be a huge time sink compared to if I just went shopping with y'all. which is part of why I'm considering setting up a fast-time bunker we can 'port back to for resting/crafting/relaxing.

EDIT 2: Currently planning out some basic stronghold stuff. Debating setting up an orbital bombardment thing, but I'm not sure if that's appropriate for the op-level, or for that matter necessary. Idk how often we're gonna need to make a 400 ft hole in the ground in a single turn but I can't be sure the answer is even as high as "once".

[remetagross]

Yeah OK, I get your point. A fast-time demiplane basically solves all problems.

Another question: is it possible, by RAW, to have several workers collaborate on an item creation process to speed it up? If yes, you could pop Simulacrums of yourself (having first taken care of taking all the speeding feats before ECL 10) and have them help you out in your workshop. If you first hire the help of a Bard with Words of Creation and Inspire Greatness, you could temporarily reach 24 HDs, thus making Simulacrums of yourself with 12 HDs and thus with your level 12 feat as well.

[GentlemanVoodoo]

This doesn't appear to be mentioned in ToM, so I'm generically not allowing it. That said, the Southern Magician trick mentioned elsewhere would work to qualify.

Odd. Did ToM get an errata then? Not contesting the ruling but it was mention on page 53 under "Adaption" in the original version. Just curious.

On the Southern Magician trick, I am not that familiar with this. So would that mean since qualifying for the PRC, would the caster level advances apply to the base class then used to enter? Or is the caster level advances only applicable to the spell that was changed from its type (the spell used for the "Once per day per two spellcaster levels...").

[AvatarVecna]

Yeah OK, I get your point. A fast-time demiplane basically solves all problems.

Another question: is it possible, by RAW, to have several workers collaborate on an item creation process to speed it up? If yes, you could pop Simulacrums of yourself (having first taken care of taking all the speeding feats before ECL 10) and have them help you out in your workshop. If you first hire the help of a Bard with Words of Creation and Inspire Greatness, you could temporarily reach 24 HDs, thus making Simulacrums of yourself with 12 HDs and thus with your level 12 feat as well.

Closest there is to collaborative is there's a spell that lets someone else pay the XP cost I think. Intended as a "my buddy wants an item but I'm not spending my hard earned XP on his stuff". If that was allowed to work, each one could make progress on a different items upgrade at a time. I'm the only one who could work on staves or rings but that's fine the homunculus could do that.

Needs DM approval though as it doesn't explicitly Dodge the one item worked on at a time limit.

[Archmage1]

Are we using any "Once a class skill, always a class skill" approaches? Class skills can get complicated with multiclassing otherwise.

I've created a sheet for Eilyra, and fluff is present(Although I will be doing another review of it later).

She will be a gish with a fair amount of support spells and buffs(Mostly self). Combat style is usually to utilize magic to break up the enemy(Fog, wall of stone, reverse gravity), and then apply sword until the problem goes away. As a fairly full wizard, also sports the fun things like teleport, mansions, see invisibility.

From a power perspective, I intend to NOT take shapechange or celerity, as both are kind of incredibly OP.(I know me. I would celerity into Time Stop. This is bad. Shapechange I didn't think was too bad until I used it in a prior game, and discovered it is way, way too powerful). She should end up being a decently effective fighter(Although not as much as a dedicated fighter), be fairly durable(High AC, miss chances), and be able to provide support magic. Currently, she casts as a level 15 wizard, has a BAB of 15(Practical attack bonus of 34 with stats, Greater Magic Weapon, and Knowledge devotion). AC 30, but in practice that is likely to be 42 with shield and dragonskin active)

Spoiler: Fluff(Note: A lot of her backstory is related to the Last Mythal Trilogy)

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Appearance:
Eilyra is a fairly beautiful elf, wearing a backless white dress(With the front and back split, to allow uninhibited movement), with a silver and gold decorated green overdress. A platinum chain loops around her neck, supporting a ruby pendant that rests above her breasts. Her golden eyes seem to burn with an inner light, and golden hair that almost looks like it's on fire. She also has pair of leathery wings folded at her back, and a long thin tail, which is currently sitting in her lap. A thin silver circlet, marked in ancient elven circles her head, with a pair of similarly marked armbands on her wrists. A white fingerless glove adorns her left hand, while a pair of rings, worn with age and use adorn her fingers(One on each hand), and a fairly large brown leather pouch sits on her right hip. Her eyes look around the room, taking in her surroundings, and her movements are almost bird-like in their speed and precision.

Eilyra has pale skin and burning golden hair. She has a seductive beauty and classic elven features. Tall, and elegant. Her gold eyes burn like bright coals, and she has large, bat-like wings emerging from her back.

Personality: Aloof, unforgiving, regrets past actions, seeks redemption. Self-Sufficient. When reacting, tends to be ruthless, but if she has time to think, tries to move past her instincts. She always seeks any advantage she can get. Takes a very practical approach to ethics, rather than a moral one.

Backstory: Born a century before the final doom of House Dlardrageth to the Lady Xiiltharra, Eilyra was unlike her elder sister, Sarya. Rather than revel in the demonic power their father had given them, Eilyra choose to pursue her own power, rather than rely on the power of others. Thus, she studied the arts of wizardry, and swordplay, while her sister reveled in her blood. Of course, power is rather handy, and unlike Sarya, Eilyra had little chance of inheriting the House, but the possibility proved to be too much of a risk for her elder sister to tolerate, and soon after their mother was killed, Sarya demonstrated her superiority in the art of betrayal. Taken by surprise, Eilyra was banished into a hellish pocket plane, where she did not age, and did not hunger.
There, she remained for millennia.
When the Harpers used the Gatekeeper's Crystal, and inadvertently freed her sister, she remained imprisoned. It wasn't until six months later, when her sister had started a campaign that the Harpers returned. While they tried to gather information, they inadvertantly shattered Eilyra's prison, unleashing the half fiend on the world once more. Violence ensued, and Elyria walked away, richer in knowledge. Not wanting to be forced into another such situation she disguises herself as a young wild elf.
Disguised, she sought news of her sister, and soon found herself joining Seiveril Miritar, although she made certain to remain well clear of the many anti-demon magics the army brought to bear. She fought well, but avoided notices, killing several of her kin along the way, and when the news came that the war was won, that her sister was dead, she celebrated, although for different reasons than the rest of the army.
However, she declined the offer to settle in Myth Drannor, as she knew the mythal wouldn't tolerate her presence, and found herself wandering, aimlessly. At first, she sought to rebuild her power base, but after taking control of a bandit gang, she soon realized that there was little point to such things. Her name would be reviled for all of history, and should she ever be known, her sisters' enemies would almost certainly kill her, and not quickly.
Instead, she chose a life of solitude, building her personal power, and seeking to recover the skills lost in her imprisonment. But it went slowly, so slowly, with much of her time and effort devoted to keeping hidden, rather than improving herself. Unsatisfied with the situation, she considers more... direct methods. And the Blood War, the endless war, practically jumps out at her. On the way, however, situations changed, and she found herself walking a different path than what she had intended, but a path that, perhaps would lead her to a more optimal solution.
And at first, she thought she had found one. A group of Drow attacked her, and a few others(Verik, Nitrick, Captain Jack), and led to a series of adventures, culminating in stopping an alliance between Lloth, and most of the other abyssal powers, but... things did not turn out as she had hoped. Most of the tasks had came from demons, and along the way, certain good factions had been offended. Ultimately, while the effects were good... they were not well known enough, and working with demons was too suspect to see her to her goals. Lessons learned.

Spoiler: Actual build

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Class selection, at this point, looks like Wizard(With Elf Generalist, Impromptu Metamagic, Spontaneous Divination, and Transmutation Domain ACF's)(All of which basically boil down to +1 spell per level, but only specific spells, +1 slot of the highest level, +1 spell known per level, can extend 5 spells per day, and can cast divination spells spontaneously(Going for the not insane reading here, wherein she needs to have the spells scribed to cast them.))
Level 6 probably Incantatrix(No persist games are planned. Extend, also only taking 1 level until epic. Actual effect is trading a spell school(Enchantment) for a metamagic feat(Which one? I don't know yet.)), unless you have objections.
From there, Swiftblade to 9(For Perpetual Options, which is why she can both sword things and cast disrupting spells. However, she won't have DC boosters, which tends to mean that her spells are not going to cut it against high CR enemies based on prior play)
Then levels in Abjurant Champion.(On the grounds of swift action shield being awesome.)

If you have any issues or concerns, please let me know now, so I can fix her before selection. She should be complete now, except for spell selection, as you had requested.
3 LA, which is fully brought off at level 18, which is where she sits(45k XP cost to buy off 3 LA, 11k at level 9(ECL 12), 16k at level 15(ECL 17), and 18k at level 18(ECL 19)
Minor side note: You know you spent too much money on stat books when... your melee combatant is using a mundane greatsword at level 18.

[Auranghzeb]

Saving this post for final submission.

Spoiler: Norebo

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Norebo was a Domovoi in the halls of the Uthgardt Black Raven Tribe for generations, discretely traveling with the tribe and watching the fire with geological patience and reveling in the fires the horde set when scourging the land. Beyond his apparent simplicity, Norebo kept a secret: The tall dark Uthgardt are descendants of the Netherese empire and Norebo wanted to tap the power of Netheril. From the comfort of the bonfire, Norebo patiently manipulated the shamans of the tribe for his benefit over generations looting the caravans of travelers and delving into ancient Netherese power.

He learned to bind the souls from the void from whom he learned even more secrets. Finally gathering the strength to venture far from the comfort of the fire and into the cold night.

Spoiler: Build

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Domovoi 2(hd fey), Binder 6, Knight of the sacred seal 2, Suel Archanamach 3, Anima Mage 7.
This gives me 8th lvl vestiges (3per day), 5th level spells, and a bunch of stats from domovoi. Buying off the LA+2 At lvl 6 and 9.
Mechanically he uses Vestige Magic to Persist Divine Power for 20 BAB, he is a mix of melee and battlefield control. But Vestiges give him some degree of flexibility. I still need to finish gear and skills.





Norebo
m NE Domovoi Fey2/Binder6/KoSS2/Suel3/AnimaM7, Level 20, Init 13, HP 296/276, DR 50%Miss, Speed 20
AC 32, Touch 22, Flat-footed 24, Fort 17, Ref 15, Will 14, Base Attack Bonus 20 /20
Short Sword +33 (1d4+10, x2)
Orthos Breath DC 27/Halves (15d6, )
Claws x 2 +33 (1d3+10, x2)
+4 magic vestment +1 Mithral shirt (+8 Armor, +8 Dex, +1 Size, +2 Natural, +3 Misc)
Abilities Str 16, Dex 26, Con 26, Int 18, Wis 15, Cha 28
Condition Bound to Orthos, Balam, Chupoclos Persiseted Divine Power.

[samduke]

Your chart is shifted down by one. Your buy off happens at levels 6 and 9. I'm not sure why levels go up to 21 here either, plus 21st level happens at 210,000 XP.

well I will not argue your ruleing on the where it takes place, but I drew the where it is placed directly from UA p18

Table 1–1: Reducing Level Adjustments
Starting Number of Class Levels Necessary for Level ; Level Adjustment Reduction Adjustment (Not Including Racial Hit Dice)

as for my numbering its not level 21 its level 19 I did mention that but if I am to use your ruleing that it happens at 6 and 9 that does change the EXP costs ->

Human
Obah-Blessed LA +2

06: Obah-Blessed Level Adjustment Buy Off (ECL 8-1x1000= 7,000)
09: Obah-Blessed Level Adjustment Buy Off (ECL 10-1x1000= 9,000)
total exp cost 16,000 (200,000-16,000=184,000 exp


19th 171,000
I have 184,000 exp
20th 190,000

okay so where planar travel has been mentioned a couple times do we need a way to planar travel ( IE Planeshift ) ??

this could alter what I build
edited

[Archmage1]

samduke, the formula for LA buyoff is ECL-1*1000, not Class level-1*1000. So a 2 la template can buy off the first one at ECL 8(Character level 6), and then ECL 10(Character level 9), so the total XP cost is 16k, not 13k XP. This is covered in the example given in the Reducing Level Adjustments page.

[paradox26]

Question for the DM. What is the optimisation level for the game? I am sure a lot of what is being thrown around is probably theorycrafting, but there are some extraordinary ideas coming out.

[Yas392]

Nocturne Phlexsky has arrive. Just need to give him fluff.

[Dakrsidder]

Looking back again, I realized I made a potential error. One of the requirements of Soul Eater is living nonhumanoid, and the character qualified when they first entered, but wouldn’t afterward due to now being undead. Is there any chance I could continue it anyway?

Spoiler: Build

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Domovoi 2(hd fey), Binder 6, Knight of the sacred seal 2, Suel Archanamach 3, Anima Mage 7.
This gives me 8th lvl vestiges (3per day), 5th level spells, and a bunch of stats from domovoi. Buying off the LA+2 At lvl 6 and 9.
Mechanically he uses Vestige Magic to Persist Divine Power for 20 BAB, he is a mix of melee and battlefield control. But Vestiges give him some degree of flexibility. I still need to finish gear and skills.





Norebo
m NE Domovoi Fey2/Binder6/KoSS2/Suel3/AnimaM7, Level 20, Init 13, HP 296/276, DR 50%Miss, Speed 20
AC 32, Touch 22, Flat-footed 24, Fort 17, Ref 15, Will 14, Base Attack Bonus 20 /20
Short Sword +33 (1d4+10, x2)
Orthos Breath DC 27/Halves (15d6, )
Claws x 2 +33 (1d3+10, x2)
+4 magic vestment +1 Mithral shirt (+8 Armor, +8 Dex, +1 Size, +2 Natural, +3 Misc)
Abilities Str 16, Dex 26, Con 26, Int 18, Wis 15, Cha 28
Condition Bound to Orthos, Balam, Chupoclos Persiseted Divine Power.

Oh, btw RHD doesn’t count towards buy off, so it’d happen at 8 & 11

[Auranghzeb]

Looking back again, I realized I made a potential error. One of the requirements of Soul Eater is living nonhumanoid, and the character qualified when they first entered, but wouldn’t afterward due to now being undead. Is there any chance I could continue it anyway?



Oh, btw RHD doesn’t count towards buy off, so it’d happen at 8 & 11

Oh, you are right, 18,000 XP, putting me down to LVL 19. Expletive Expletive...

Well, need to re-think a couple of things then.

[chaincomplex]

I'll get a table of characters up Later^TM today. And set a deadline of, I think, May 9. Let me know if that's too close or far, I don't remember how speedy recruitment here goes.

It's good to have a game where someone is allowing it, but is also aware of just how ridiculous it can get if players are left to go whole hog. I feel like every time I go to build an artificer, I ask at every step of the path if a particular way of making items cheaper is fine, and the DM always says yes cuz in their head they're thinking it can't ever get as good as nigh-epic casters, and then the end product has effectively like 10 times as much money as it's supposed to and is basically invincible melee bruiser and suddenly it's a problem.

The artificer can generally tune their power to fit a campaign, plus while it's possible for an artificer to just become a better melee, skill monkey, and sometimes caster than their teammates, all at the same time even, this is just an OOC issue common to all tier 1 casters. Most such players have the sense that the best way to use tier 1s is to use their abilities in a way that benefits the party overall.

So generically I'm not too bothered with cost reduction tricks since the benefits should distribute among the party in the end, providing the player in question is being conscientious. Of course, the industrial-scale distilled joy farm is off the table, and with regard to demiplane traits re: genesis, I might cap it at something like Dal Quor's 10x. Is there a published plane with a faster time flow?

Anyways, speaking of artificer, it occurs to me the class has abilities with action points built in. Do you have a preferred way of handling this? No APs for this adventure.

If you're wondering about time, XP, or wealth:

1. Around important events, time will progress at the usual D&D adventure pace, which is slow. But otherwise I'll either be asking "what are you doing today" and have things progress on the scale of days, or break days up into 4 hour pieces, etc. This is a pointcrawl, so the passage of time should be a running theme.
2. We'll have a more PF-like XP reward system for combat and out-of-combat feats, plus I'm generally scaling XP and removing relative level cutoffs. I haven't decided yet how much I'm scaling, but I'm aware how slow PbP can go, I don't want the game to get bogged down at the 21st level XP grind. This is a pointcrawl, so encounter balance isn't as much of a concern.
3. Same with wealth. As a pointcrawl, NPCs and encounters will have treasuries befitting their role, rather than follow the monster drop table to the coin. If you kill a level 13 king and rob his treasury, you're going to get a lot more than the drop table for the appropriate CR encounter. As before, I don't want PCs to get bogged down with the PbP pace.

If DM agrees that infusions counts for PrCs requiring Arcane Caster Level, I could dip Maester for x0.5 time cost.

I don't believe they do. As I recall, infusions are explicitly neither arcane nor divine. There are other tricks to get arcane caster levels, of course.

Odd. Did ToM get an errata then? Not contesting the ruling but it was mention on page 53 under "Adaption" in the original version. Just curious.

Ah, no, actually I just wasn't looking carefully enough. It's a one-sentence thing but it's stated. The general spellcaster and psionics variants are OK with me.

On the Southern Magician trick, I am not that familiar with this. So would that mean since qualifying for the PRC, would the caster level advances apply to the base class then used to enter? Or is the caster level advances only applicable to the spell that was changed from its type (the spell used for the "Once per day per two spellcaster levels...").

The CL advances per the generous interpretation. A divine caster is not an arcane spellcasting class of course, but with Southern Magician they can absolutely cast arcane spells and are still a class, so satisfies the requirement of being an arcane spellcasting class.

This interpretation is of course subject to rebuttal, e.g. "arcane spellcasting class refers to features innate to the class and not feat-enabled abilities". But, you know, this line of reasoning is not specifically printed anywhere AFAIK, and for builds especially I want to sit on the permissive side of RAW.

Closest there is to collaborative is there's a spell that lets someone else pay the XP cost I think. Intended as a "my buddy wants an item but I'm not spending my hard earned XP on his stuff". If that was allowed to work, each one could make progress on a different items upgrade at a time. I'm the only one who could work on staves or rings but that's fine the homunculus could do that.

Needs DM approval though as it doesn't explicitly Dodge the one item worked on at a time limit.

If you can source this spell I can make a ruling.

Are we using any "Once a class skill, always a class skill" approaches? Class skills can get complicated with multiclassing otherwise.

Yes. We'll inherit PF's approach here and simplify affairs. If you have any levels in a class that considers it a class skill, it's a class skill.

...

Let me shelf this for now, see Archmage1's post about buy off levels. I'll work out your concept later on my end.

Question for the DM. What is the optimisation level for the game? I am sure a lot of what is being thrown around is probably theorycrafting, but there are some extraordinary ideas coming out.

Practical optimization is OK. Wanna build an Incantatrix, OK. Wanna get free wishes with Dweomerkeeper, not OK.

If you're building powerful, build something that can be played in a way that doesn't step on other players' toes.

Looking back again, I realized I made a potential error. One of the requirements of Soul Eater is living nonhumanoid, and the character qualified when they first entered, but wouldn’t afterward due to now being undead. Is there any chance I could continue it anyway?

By my reading you don't lose class features when you lose prerequisites unless it's explicitly stated that you do. Also it looks by a careful RAW reading this doesn't even preclude continuing in the class after losing prerequisites, unless explicitly noted.

If a character does not meet the Requirements for a prestige class before that first step, that character cannot take the first level of that prestige class.

I wasn't expecting this, but huh, I learn a new thing every day.

[paradox26]

Thanks for clarifying. That is a bit of a relief, as I thought I was being outbuilt, since I am going all in on flavour material from Dark Sun for this game.

Just for the record, and I will put sources of each thing on my sheet, I am building an Unbound (template) 2 / Templar 8 / Shadow Templar 10.

[Auranghzeb]

Fixed the Buyoff. Norebo is now Lvl 19, just dropped a level of suel archanamach.

1. About class skills: I'm tracking cross class skills, but I have to ask, "once a class skill, always a class skill"? Are we using retroactive skill points?

2. I'm hoping we can use Epic Vestiges, if I get selected.

3. The idea with the character is to remain small/finesse and then pop the occasional "I'm a Titan" Draconic polymorph.

[paradox26]

The answer to your first query can be found in chaincomplex’s last post. It is once a class skill, always a class skill. Not certain about retrospective increases, but I have a vague idea that may have been permitted.

[BelGareth]

WOW, you all had me questioning my LA buyoff math, i double checked and nope, I'm solid. Glad I got that 3.5 Degree from Gygax uni back in the day.

[samduke]

Let me shelf this for now, see Archmage1's post about buy off levels. I'll work out your concept later on my end.

I just had a blonde moment on the level adjustment buy off.


however if we need a way to planar travel ( IE Planeshift ) , <not answered> , the concept initially made does not work for me. so I just need that part answered ??