What drives a poor reputation for the Rogue class?

[Psyren]

Sure, its the difference between spending a week on it because you know what the important parts about it are versus spending a year actually living in town so people know who you are.

Oh right, thanks, I didn't even touch on the weird-ass arbitrary 7-day tax in my last post. Yet another reason to toss it.

[Keltest]

Oh right, thanks, I didn't even touch on the weird-ass arbitrary 7-day tax in my last post. Yet another reason to toss it.

Heavens forbid that a class have a roleplaying tool instead of something that makes their damage numbers go up, right?

[Pex]

This is my interpretation as well. It doesn't make the action possible, it makes it so you don't need to roll.

The question is how big a deal this is, and how it compares to what alternative builds have to offer.



There are checks for forgery and the like too. It's the same thing as disguise; the assassin makes it so you don't need to roll those checks.

This, however, it does not necessarily do. Per the PHB, passive checks are used when the DM might not want to reveal the result of the roll, or they want to represent the result of a task done repeatedly. It's called passive because the player doesn't roll, it doesn't mean that the character is being casual or passive.

I can imagine a player and DM arguing over this. The DM will demand rolls anyway by reflex because "where's the challenge" or unable to conceive of a PC just being that good he autosucceeds. The DM would view this as too powerful broken as if the player is trying to get away with something. The DM will hunt for excuses where the disguise fails. Yeah, it's my usual being cynical about DMs thinking, but I'm speaking from experience upon other instances of things PCs can just do yet the DM insists on a roll or deny the PC can do it at all given the situation. "No roll needed, autosucceed" or similar language needs to be explicitly printed ink on paper for some DMs to accept it, and even then they might house rule it away.

[Pooky the Imp]

A non-Assassin wants to make a disguise? They roll, using their Disguise Kit proficiency (assuming they have it; otherwise just a flat Attribute roll), and set the DC of their disguise, which is used going forward until they either succeed at their objective or until their disguise fails. Even so, it's possible your disguise is flawless but fails through different scrutiny; you didn't forge a background, establish relations, etc. You may "look the part" but fail to "check out" when investigated.
An Assassin gets to skip all of that, because their disguise is that much better than the non-Assassin's, and they "brought the receipts" for the background, relations, etc as well.

The Assassin's ability doesn't prevent the former in any way.

Incorrect.


You're ignoring the wording of the ability.

Abilities that let you do something new say "you can...". If, on the other hand, an ability is enhancing something you could already do, it will instead say "when you..."

As an example:

Master of Tactics
Starting at 3rd level, you can use the Help action as a bonus action. Additionally, when you use the Help action to aid an ally in attacking a creature, the target of that attack can be within 30 feet of you, rather than 5 feet of you, if the target can see or hear you.

The first sentence is giving you the ability to do something you couldn't before (Help as a bonus action), so it uses "you can".

The second is improving something you could already do (Help a creature Attack), so it uses "when you"


Take another example:

Mage Hand Legerdemain
Starting at 3rd level, when you cast Mage Hand, you can make the spectral hand invisible, and you can perform the following additional tasks with it:

- You can stow one object the hand is holding in a container worn or carried by another creature.
- You can retrieve an object in a container worn or carried by another creature.
- You can use thieves' tools to pick locks and disarm traps at range.
You can perform one of these tasks without being noticed by a creature if you succeed on a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check contested by the creature's Wisdom (Perception) check.

In addition, you can use the bonus action granted by your Cunning Action to control the hand.

Note the use of 'when you' at the start, because casting Mage Hand is something you can already do.

However, all the subsequent abilities are things you weren't previously able to do, and thus they use "you can".

Now look at the Assassin ability:

Infiltration Expertise
Starting at 9th level, you can unfailingly create false identities for yourself. You must spend seven days and 25 gp to establish the history, profession, and affiliations for an identity. You can't establish an identity that belongs to someone else. For example, you might acquire appropriate clothing, letters of introduction, and official- looking certification to establish yourself as a member of a trading house from a remote city so you can insinuate yourself into the company of other wealthy merchants.

Thereafter, if you adopt the new identity as a disguise, other creatures believe you to be that person until given an obvious reason not to.

At no point does it say "when you..."

Thus, unless you are saying that WotC abandoned their writing style for this one ability, we must deduce that this entire ability is something only Assassins can do.

Otherwise it would say something to the effect of "When you use Disguise and/or Forgery kits to craft false personas and documents..." because it would then be something that other rogues can also do, and you merely get a better version of it.

Instead, the ability is clearly written in such a way as to indicate that crafting false personas is something you can only do if you are an Assassin of at least 9th level.

[Psyren]

Heavens forbid that a class have a roleplaying tool instead of something that makes their damage numbers go up, right?

Base Rogue already has many effective roleplaying tools, why do they also need a valuable subclass feature taken up with jank? More is not always better. Do you go around taping snickers bars to your steaks?

[Schwann145]

There is a PHB background that has you start with a false identity including acquaintances, documentation, official letters, etc at level one.

And if they possessed the skills to do it once, it's reasonable to assume they're capable of doing it again somehow

It's a huge leap (in mechanical assumptions) to go from, "the Background gives you one," to, "therefore it's reasonable to assume it can give you X many more."

Incorrect.


You're ignoring the wording of the ability.

~snip~

Actually, you're ignoring the wording of the ability.
Anyone can use a Disguise Kit to create disguises and false identities and so on and so fourth.
Only the Assassin can do so unfailingly. And you'll notice the Assassin isn't using an Ability(Tool) check to create this identity; they simply succeed at creating one from using the ability.

[Dr.Samurai]

Exactly - anyone can do something like this, so in order to try and preserve Assassin's dubious niche, you're now houseruling in unwritten handicaps like "require more checks, as much time or more, and more money." Either that, or rogues who don't have this feature merely get the lesser ability to "wear costumes." It's exactly the kind of artificial ceiling I'm glad is getting tossed out of the game.

Got it.

So as I understand it, if a player in your game wanted to replicate the Infiltration Expertise feature, it would go something like this:

Player: I'd like make a false identity.
Psyren: Ok, that will be a Deception check, and you need a Disguise Kit.
Player: Ok, but I'd like to auto-succeed.
Psyren: Okay
Player: Also, I want to establish a compelling history for this character, so that people have already heard of him.
Psyren: That's fine, we'll just lump that right in with the Disguise/Deception check.
Player: Cool. Also, I want to have documents that authenticate the identity somehow. Official looking stuff that will pass any inspection.
Psyren: Makes sense. Let's just lump that right into the same Disguise/Deception roll.
Player: Wow, great. You know what though... I want to also have affiliations in the world for this character, so that people know he's a member of a group or groups, or is familiar to other real people.
Psyren: Yeah, that's a good idea. Why don't we just do that with the same exact single Disguise/Deception roll.
Player: Oh I was hoping you'd say that. And then finally, I want the disguise to be so good that there's no contested check unless something really obvious happens to make me seem suspicious.
Psyren: Perfect, might as well just lump that in with everything else.
Player: Wow... the Disguise Kit is incredible! Hey do I need to spend any time or money to do this?
Psyren: Not at all, it's just a disguise check. And since you asked, let's just say it auto-succeeds too.
Player: Brilliant!

I'm not surprised that when nothing means anything in a game and it all gets hand-waived away, we draw the conclusions that we do.

Yes, if you houserule in a handicap that every other subclass needs at least 7 days like they do, likely more, and maybe throw in a monetary cost too, the Assassin looks better by comparison. And if I break Nancy Kerrigan's kneecaps before the Olympics I'll be the figure-skating champion too. It's not a great argument for Infiltration Expertise being the entirety of a subclass feature.

I get that assassin is not everyone's jam, and the features certainly have issues. But Infiltration Expertise is incredibly powerful in games that make use of downtime and explore out of combat adventures and intrigue.

It doesn't have to be a "single roll", Reliable Talent and Expertise work on all of them.

What rolls though? Can you just provide something of what you think it would look like to replicate this feature with any other character? What skills are you thinking you'll need?

I mean, theres a difference between lying about your name and having a false identity. A fake identity, people are greeting you down at the pub, merchants will take your credit, maybe you can get yourself an invite to a fancy/private party. Stuff like that.

Also worth pointing out, a false identity doesn't mean you are disguised. You might still look like you, which can be advantageous because people can't see through your real face, or expose your beard as fake if its your real beard. Wear a disguise, commit your crime, then take off your fake beard and turn back into Brice Lane, mild mannered playboy and new money in town, who everyone in town will vouch for being an upstanding chap.

Sure, its the difference between spending a week on it because you know what the important parts about it are versus spending a year actually living in town so people know who you are.

Heavens forbid that a class have a roleplaying tool instead of something that makes their damage numbers go up, right?

All quoted for truth.

I can imagine a player and DM arguing over this. The DM will demand rolls anyway by reflex because "where's the challenge" or unable to conceive of a PC just being that good he autosucceeds. The DM would view this as too powerful broken as if the player is trying to get away with something. The DM will hunt for excuses where the disguise fails. Yeah, it's my usual being cynical about DMs thinking, but I'm speaking from experience upon other instances of things PCs can just do yet the DM insists on a roll or deny the PC can do it at all given the situation. "No roll needed, autosucceed" or similar language needs to be explicitly printed ink on paper for some DMs to accept it, and even then they might house rule it away.

Certainly some of the sentiments in this thread will lead people to run it that way. It's a shame. I'd bet that if there was a spell called Mordenkainen's False Persona that essentially read like Infiltration Expertise, we'd be hearing all about how powerful it is and all of the out of combat implications it would have and how you can insinuate yourself in every organization etc etc.

But it's a martial ability so... here we are.

[Skrum]

I can't believe we're going on for pages about an absolutely terrible ability...

Why is the ability terrible? By my eye, even if the people here who are defending this ability are right, this ability will get used...idk, a handful of times throughout a campaign? Maybe? Idk that I've ever been in a campaign where this ridiculously specific ability would've ever come up, but that's another topic.

*This is supposed to be an entire subclass feature.* Like, 1 of 4 or 5 you'll ever get, and even then only if you play all the way to 17.

General guideline for major features? They should plausibly come up at least once per *session.* That's a meaningful ability. A plot device disguised (heh, pun) as a class feature is not a meaningful ability.

[LudicSavant]

It's a huge leap (in mechanical assumptions) to go from, "the Background gives you one," to, "therefore it's reasonable to assume it can give you X many more."

I wish you didn't cut off the rest of that sentence and post.

I'm not saying that the Background Feature is what allows you to make more (it doesn't). I'm saying that if it tells you that your favorite scheme is "I put on new identities like other people put on clothes" or "I insinuate myself into people's lives to prey on their weakness and secure their fortunes," then it seems reasonable to expect that the game thinks you should be able to do that somehow. Such as, you know, with ability checks.

Let me ask you a question: Would you tell a player of a level 13 charlatan Eloquence Bard with disguise kit proficiency and the favorite scheme "I put on new identities like others put on clothes" that they are unable to attempt to adopt false identities?

[Psyren]

Player: Ok, but I'd like to auto-succeed.

I stopped reading here because they wouldn't have to ask me for that, they'd just say "With RT + Expertise + 14 Cha my lowest possible roll is a 20, and with advantage I actually got a 28."

I get that assassin is not everyone's jam, and the features certainly have issues. But Infiltration Expertise is incredibly powerful in games that make use of downtime and explore out of combat adventures and intrigue.

So is regular Expertise.

What rolls though? Can you just provide something of what you think it would look like to replicate this feature with any other character? What skills are you thinking you'll need?

Deception and a Disguise Kit, maybe a Forgery Kit too? Is that somehow an outlandish expectation for crafting a believable false identity?

I wish you didn't cut off the rest of that sentence and post.

I'm not saying that the Background Feature is what allows you to make more (it doesn't). I'm saying that if it tells you that your favorite scheme is "I put on new identities like other people put on clothes" or "I insinuate myself into people's lives to prey on their weakness and secure their fortunes," then it seems reasonable to expect that the game thinks you should be able to do that somehow. Such as, you know, with ability checks.

Let me ask you a question: Would you tell a player of a level 13 charlatan Eloquence Bard with disguise kit proficiency and the favorite scheme "I put on new identities like other people on clothes" that they are unable to attempt to adopt false identities?

Indeed. I just don't get this rush to defend a horrible subclass feature that doesn't need to be there when ability checks and features that make characters really good at them already exist.

[Keltest]

I can't believe we're going on for pages about an absolutely terrible ability...

Why is the ability terrible? By my eye, even if the people here who are defending this ability are right, this ability will get used...idk, a handful of times throughout a campaign? Maybe? Idk that I've ever been in a campaign where this ridiculously specific ability would've ever come up, but that's another topic.

*This is supposed to be an entire subclass feature.* Like, 1 of 4 or 5 you'll ever get, and even then only if you play all the way to 17.

General guideline for major features? They should plausibly come up at least once per *session.* That's a meaningful ability. A plot device disguised (heh, pun) as a class feature is not a meaningful ability.

Why not? Are games that are heavy on the intrigue invalid? Is that a badwrong way to play D&D? Or maybe is it simply something that your table elects not to use?

I wish you didn't cut off the rest of that sentence and post.

I'm not saying that the Background Feature is what allows you to make more (it doesn't). I'm saying that if it tells you that your favorite scheme is "I put on new identities like other people put on clothes" or "I insinuate myself into people's lives to prey on their weakness and secure their fortunes," then it seems reasonable to expect that the game thinks you should be able to do that somehow. Such as, you know, with ability checks.

Or, perhaps, with words and time? If I picked the farmer background, I wouldnt expect an ability check to let me grow a stalk of corn on the spot.

Deception and a Disguise Kit, maybe a Forgery Kit too? Is that somehow an outlandish expectation for crafting a believable false identity?

Yes? There is no roll you can achieve on a D20, no bonus so high, that lets you gaslight someone into thinking theyve been your good friend for weeks when you just met them today.

[Dork_Forge]

Infiltration Expertise is not a bad ability.

The bad thing is that it's the only ability gained at 9th level.

Same with Impsoter at 13th level.

Those levels of Assassin are not bad in their design, they're just incomplete.

As for the merits of Infiltration Expertise, I can't help but think it wouldn't be getting so chipped away at if it was a spell. Of course you can do what the feature says in other ways, the big difference is the time, money, and other costs involved that are at the mercy of the DM, instead of 'I just do it.' That's a healthy difference.

[Schwann145]

I'm not saying that the Background Feature is what allows you to make more (it doesn't). I'm saying that if it tells you that your favorite scheme is "I put on new identities like other people put on clothes" or "I insinuate myself into people's lives to prey on their weakness and secure their fortunes," then it seems reasonable to expect that the game thinks you should be able to do that somehow. Such as, you know, with ability checks.

Well, good news: you can do so with ability checks.
It will require quite a few of them, covering various different things. And you're a Rogue so you're probably going to roll well on most, if not all, of those checks, but that's no guarantee.
Meanwhile, the Assassin doesn't have to make those checks.

Let me ask you a question: Would you tell a player of a level 13 charlatan Eloquence Bard with disguise kit proficiency and the favorite scheme "I put on new identities like other people on clothes" that they are unable to attempt to adopt false identities?

Once again, for the umpteenth time now, the Assassin abilities do not preclude others from doing the same thing.
The Assassin is just better than them at it.

I just don't get this rush to defend a horrible subclass feature that doesn't need to be there when ability checks and features that make characters really good at them already exist.

Why do you automatically assume a non-Assassin's rolls to build a false identity will be amazing? d20s are very swingy, even with Rogues.
And why do you automatically assume that, in a game where infiltration is taking center stage, you won't be facing opposition that is capable of beating the DCs that a skill-rolled false identity sets?

[LudicSavant]

Well, good news: you can do so with ability checks.
It will require quite a few of them, covering various different things. And you're a Rogue so you're probably going to roll well on most, if not all, of those checks, but that's no guarantee.
Meanwhile, the Assassin doesn't have to make those checks.

Once again, for the umpteenth time now, the Assassin abilities do not preclude others from doing the same thing.

We are in agreement on this.

The question is how big a deal this is, and how it compares to what alternative builds have to offer.

Why do you automatically assume a non-Assassin's rolls to build a false identity will be amazing? d20s are very swingy, even with Rogues.

And why do you automatically assume that, in a game where infiltration is taking center stage, you won't be facing opposition that is capable of beating the DCs that a skill-rolled false identity sets?

You asked Psyren, but I can answer:

The Assassin still has to roll (with Advantage) when they're up against wary counterintelligence agents and the like. And non-Assassins can roll higher than Assassins can (as well as bring other abilities that help, like things that can foil divinations, etc).

Basically if you asked me if I would rather have an ability (at tier 3, in a game where infiltration takes center stage) that made it easier to deal with casual observers or one that made me better at dealing with psionic inquisitors, I'd take the second.

Or, perhaps, with words and time?

Sure!

[Psyren]

Yes? There is no roll you can achieve on a D20, no bonus so high, that lets you gaslight someone into thinking theyve been your good friend for weeks when you just met them today.

If your 2014 Assassin is trying to do that same-day then they're SOL too, because you needed 6 more of prep.
And if you did have 7 days of navelgazing prep time to learn about their acquaintances and pick a suitable target to impersonate, tell me why I wouldn't with a different rogue again?

Why do you automatically assume a non-Assassin's rolls to build a false identity will be amazing? d20s are very swingy, even with Rogues.
And why do you automatically assume that, in a game where infiltration is taking center stage, you won't be facing opposition that is capable of beating the DCs that a skill-rolled false identity sets?

When DC 20 is the minimum roll I can hit (at 7th level for the record, not 9th), I consider that more than enough to be considered great at doing a thing.

And sure, I might fail anyway. At which point I'll have, you know, actual features to fall back on. Say I'm a Soulknife and my roll of 28 failed because the DC is 30, well now I can Psi-Boosted Knack it to 35 and win. Or I get caught because I'm an Arcane Trickster, I'll Misty Step to the upstairs window and Feather Fall to safety, or I'm a Swashbuckler, I'll Awe the guards and stroll out while they can't attack me. The nice thing about failure in D&D is that it's rarely game over, especially outside the combat pillar.

[Dr.Samurai]

As for the merits of Infiltration Expertise, I can't help but think it wouldn't be getting so chipped away at if it was a spell. Of course you can do what the feature says in other ways, the big difference is the time, money, and other costs involved that are at the mercy of the DM, instead of 'I just do it.' That's a healthy difference.

10,000%

Well, good news: you can do so with ability checks.
It will require quite a few of them, covering various different things. And you're a Rogue so you're probably going to roll well on most, if not all, of those checks, but that's no guarantee.
Meanwhile, the Assassin doesn't have to make those checks.

Why do you automatically assume a non-Assassin's rolls to build a false identity will be amazing? d20s are very swingy, even with Rogues.
And why do you automatically assume that, in a game where infiltration is taking center stage, you won't be facing opposition that is capable of beating the DCs that a skill-rolled false identity sets?

Indeed.

A disguise kit lets you "add your proficiency bonus to any ability checks you make to create a visual disguise". Note it's a visual disguise, not a full blown cover identity with a history, profession, affiliations and whatever else.

A forgery kit "is designed to duplicate documents and to make it easier to copy a person's seal or signature". The Quick Fake feature says it's an Intelligence check to set the DC to spot your fake documents.

Notably, a rogue can't get Expertise in either of these tool proficiencies. If the disguise check is a Charisma check, and the forgery check is an Intelligence check, then maybe you're rocking a +2 bonus to both of these checks, if we're being generous and tanking Wisdom. So even if we take the conversation to level 11 where Psyren wants to have it for Reliable Talent, we're looking at a guaranteed 16 DC to spot the fake disguise and forgery. So you might have to start rolling those Deception dice before you even get in the door and make use of Deception Expertise immediately not to blow your cover. Expertise with a 14 Charisma is +10 at this level, which is good. But remember, the DM decides if a check is needed; it may be that spotting a fake disguise will scuttle the entire mission, as no Deception after that will work if people find out you're wearing a wig and prosthetic nose, and handing over fake documents. So much for Expertise.

[Psyren]

Notably, a rogue can't get Expertise in either of these tool proficiencies.

I'm not using them that way. I'm doing a Deception check, to which those tool proficiencies are granting me advantage, as per Xanathar's/2024.

(In fact, 2024 seems to be doing away with checks/expertise using tools directly - see the new wording for Fast Hands.)

[Keltest]

If your 2014 Assassin is trying to do that same-day then they're SOL too, because you needed 6 more of prep.
And if you did have 7 days of navelgazing prep time to learn about their acquaintances and pick a suitable target to impersonate, tell me why I wouldn't with a different rogue again?

Tell me why you would? A week isnt a lot of time to establish an identity. There are only so many lunches with new friends and pubs you can visit in that time.

[Psyren]

Tell me why you would? A week isnt a lot of time to establish an identity. There are only so many lunches with new friends and pubs you can visit in that time.

So we're back to "it's not too much time for an Assassin because they have the specific coupon, but we need to artificially penalize every other class and subclass's ability to even attempt the thing because we simply must protect this bad niche." No thanks.

[Dr.Samurai]

I'm not using them that way. I'm doing a Deception check, to which those tool proficiencies are granting me advantage, as per Xanathar's/2024.

Sorry Psyren, but at this point you're essentially saying that the Disguise Kit is not needed to create disguises, which, well... I think it's so obviously wrong I don't feel like arguing about it.

Deception lets you pass yourself off in a disguise, but it doesn't create the actual disguise. People can still spot a fake disguise, and the Disguise Kit is what governs the disguise that you make.

Xanathar's suggests that if your disguise will help in your Deception (which it should, generally) then you can get Advantage on your Deception check to keep up the ruse. But as good an actor as Ian Mckellen is, if Peter Jackson filmed the Fellowship of the Ring with Gandalf wearing a dollar store Santa beard and a wizard hat and robe from Spirit Halloween, it would be immediately noticeable.

There's no presumption in the game that when you make a disguise it's just believable by everyone. Sorry, there is, for level 9 Assassins.

(In fact, 2024 seems to be doing away with checks/expertise using tools directly - see the new wording for Fast Hands.)

This is the 5e board.

[Keltest]

So we're back to "it's not too much time for an Assassin because they have the specific coupon, but we need to artificially penalize every other class and subclass's ability to even attempt the thing because we simply must protect this bad niche." No thanks.

"Assassins can do it in an unreasonably fast time" means we're penalizing all the other classes now does it?

[Schwann145]

And sure, I might fail anyway. At which point I'll have, you know, actual features to fall back on. Say I'm a Soulknife and my roll of 28 failed because the DC is 30, well now I can Psi-Boosted Knack it to 35 and win. Or I get caught because I'm an Arcane Trickster, I'll Misty Step to the upstairs window and Feather Fall to safety, or I'm a Swashbuckler, I'll Awe the guards and stroll out while they can't attack me. The nice thing about failure in D&D is that it's rarely game over, especially outside the combat pillar.

Just for giggles, let's look at each and use the "online discussion conventional wisdom" of dice averages.
•Soulknife's min roll is 20, but their avg roll is 21. Avg roll for Knack adds 6, for a total of 27. You failed the check.
•I'd be shocked if you actually used 1 of your very limited 4 (or rather, 2, based on level 11) options to break out of Illusion/Enchantment to pick up Feather Fall. Shocked. Besides, Misty Step doesn't take you very far and ATs are a lil starved for slots, being a non-primary caster after all. Good luck with that escape but I'm not betting on you?
•Awe doesn't exist. Using playtest material as if it's definitely what 2024 will bring is... Well anyway, let's pretend it does exist. It offers a save to all affected, requires you land a successful Sneak Attack to activate, and lasts for a single round. You're not "strolling" anywhere with Awe.

Do other subclasses have different options? Of course. Many of them are much better for combat.
But the Assassin doesn't have to deal with any of the above. Because their disguise simply worked.

I'm not using them that way. I'm doing a Deception check, to which those tool proficiencies are granting me advantage, as per Xanathar's/2024.

That is a bold assumption.
I think it's a very safe bet that most DMs are going to require you to roll the Tool Proficiency to set the DCs and have you roll the Deception in the field, after it's already created.

[Dr.Samurai]

I can't believe we're going on for pages about an absolutely terrible ability...

Well... the whole point of the thread is the rogue's reputation vs what the rogue can actually do. So I'm not surprised there's debate over this. Frankly, I haven't found any arguments against Infiltration Expertise compelling at all, and I say that as someone that thinks the subclass can use major improvement and martials need an overhaul. But I think the feature is more powerful than people are giving it credit for.

Bear in mind, you never hear people talking about rogues (or others) creating false identities and becoming fixtures in various organizations and social circles as basically spies and Trojan horses, gathering information, currying favor, etc. Why? Because people don't do it.

But when we have this conversation about Infiltration Expertise, an ability that I think can lead to tremendous impact out of combat, suddenly it's like "well you can do this from level 1, this is just a background feature, anyone can do this, what's the big deal??". And I'll note again that these comments aren't actually saying the ability isn't good (again, not speaking to its actual merits in the game), but once again nickel and diming every feature with (generally shallow) comparisons to other classes.

Why is the ability terrible? By my eye, even if the people here who are defending this ability are right, this ability will get used...idk, a handful of times throughout a campaign? Maybe? Idk that I've ever been in a campaign where this ridiculously specific ability would've ever come up, but that's another topic.

*This is supposed to be an entire subclass feature.* Like, 1 of 4 or 5 you'll ever get, and even then only if you play all the way to 17.

General guideline for major features? They should plausibly come up at least once per *session.* That's a meaningful ability. A plot device disguised (heh, pun) as a class feature is not a meaningful ability.

I think the issue is more that people either play in modules that are rather linear and don't allow time for features like this to be used, or play in high octane games that incentivize and reward push button solutions, and stuff like this will never see the light of day.

But people are sort of assuming that in order to make use of this feature in the moment, you have to go and make an identity for 7 days. But if you've already made previous identities, then you can use one of those that might be applicable. And with these identities, you can have contacts, resources, have information, etc. to draw on. So maybe you don't have a pertinent cultist identity to infiltrate the cultist hideout, but you do have an identity as a famed bounty hunter. So you put on the disguise and head to the captain of the guard in disguise and with forged bounties and ask about the recent cultist activity. Maybe they give you a lead to follow and gain more information. That's off the top of my head but the point is that you can draw on previous disguises and resources you have gained through previous disguises, so that using this feature every session doesn't necessarily mean you need 7 days to do so. You can draw on contacts, favors, and resources that you have obtained previously during other downtime as Deglan, notorious thief and high ranking member of the Thieves Guild, Oskan, star gazer, seer, and counsel to nobility, Dahsor, court jester and traveling fool, Baern, brutal blade for hire with no scruples, etc etc.

While the wizard is brewing potions and scribing scrolls, the assassin is creating and maintaining identities to draw from later on. It's not just "I create a disguise to infiltrate this castle and kill someone". It can be much much more than that.

[Psyren]

Sorry Psyren, but at this point you're essentially saying that the Disguise Kit is not needed to create disguises, which, well... I think it's so obviously wrong I don't feel like arguing about it.

No, I said no such thing. You're treating the kit like it is its own ability but that's now how either version of the game works. There are only 6 ability checks in D&D, corresponding to the 6 ability scores - Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis, and Cha. I'm not making a "Disguise Kit" check - I'm making a Charisma check and then asking the GM whether a proficiency or expertise my character has applies. If I'm trying to fool someone with a false identity and I have Expertise in Deception and Proficiency in a Disguise Kit, then I can ask the DM if the Disguise I created with my use the Disguise Kit to grant advantage on my Charisma (Deception) roll, resulting in Expertise + Advantage as per Xanathar's 78 / UA8 pg 30.

Deception lets you pass yourself off in a disguise, but it doesn't create the actual disguise. People can still spot a fake disguise, and the Disguise Kit is what governs the disguise that you make.

Xanathar's suggests that if your disguise will help in your Deception (which it should, generally) then you can get Advantage on your Deception check to keep up the ruse. But as good an actor as Ian Mckellen is, if Peter Jackson filmed the Fellowship of the Ring with Gandalf wearing a dollar store Santa beard and a wizard hat and robe from Spirit Halloween, it would be immediately noticeable.

Adding to the above, the challenge here is having a believable false identity. Both Disguise and Forgery kits will play a role in that, but the ultimate check would be Charisma (Deception), to be believed. Simply putting on a wig without any attempt to act like the persona would act does nothing.

There's no presumption in the game that when you make a disguise it's just believable by everyone. Sorry, there is, for level 9 Assassins.

If my base class gives me a minimum roll of 20, very likely approaching 30, then I don't actually need a crappy ribbon that guarantees believability - I'll take my chances. (And a subclass with actual features.)

This is the 5e board.

That last part was actually an aside, I'm primarily discussing 2014. But since you bring it up, per the mods 2024 D&D discussions go here too.

"Assassins can do it in an unreasonably fast time" means we're penalizing all the other classes now does it?

Yes - if there's only a week before the infiltration and Assassins are the only ones who can actually attempt to infiltrate in that week, regardless of training, then you are functionally telling Bards and Soulknives and everyone else to go take a hike.

[Theodoxus]

The Assassin still has to roll (with Advantage) when they're up against wary counterintelligence agents and the like. And non-Assassins can roll higher than Assassins can (as well as bring other abilities that help, like things that can foil divinations, etc).

I'm super curious as to what exactly, your (and Psyren, and anyone else who apparently thinks Infiltration Expertise is easily replaced with a kit and deception check) definition of 'unfailing' is.

Because I don't think unfailing means 'failing to wary counterintelligence agents'. I don't even think unfailing means 'failing to mind reading of any type.' I think unfailing means 'can not fail.'

Is that just too supernatural for an unmagical effect for y'all?

Regarding 'Can' vs 'When', I believe for IE specifically, the '...can unfailingly...' is the operating new. Not the rest of the ability; else why have disguise kits. No one else can unfailingly create a disguise that will pass all muster, magical or mundane.

[Psyren]

I'm super curious as to what exactly, your (and Psyren, and anyone else who apparently thinks Infiltration Expertise is easily replaced with a kit and deception check) definition of 'unfailing' is.

Because I don't think unfailing means 'failing to wary counterintelligence agents'. I don't even think unfailing means 'failing to mind reading of any type.' I think unfailing means 'can not fail.'

Is that just too supernatural for an unmagical effect for y'all?

It actually says "unfailing" before listing one fail state exception ("you can't") followed by another ("until.") Both of which are wide enough for the DM to drive an airship through. So no, it's not actually "can't fail."

Also - yet again, even if it is truly "unfailing" in your campaign, the question is whether what you gave up for that feature is worth it. By being an Assassin, you cannot also be a Soulknife or Arcane Trickster or Swashbuckler. All three of which have the same base class features that help with this, and stronger level 9 subclass features.

[Skrum]

It actually says "unfailing" before listing one fail state exception ("you can't") followed by another ("until.") Both of which are wide enough for the DM to drive an airship through. So no, it's not actually "can't fail."

Also - yet again, even if it is truly "unfailing" in your campaign, the question is whether what you gave up for that feature is worth it. By being an Assassin, you cannot also be a Soulknife or Arcane Trickster or Swashbuckler. All three of which have the same base class features that help with this, and stronger level 9 subclass features.

Agreed.

Thing is, if I'm just white-room contriving ways for this ability to be used, sure, I can think of uses for it. The character has a list of prepared aliases that they can swap from one to another, and thus no organization in the city can stop this character from infiltrating them. That's actually pretty cool, if it was a character in a book.

But in practice, I just don't see it working that way. For instance, if I was the DM and I was running a campaign that took place within high fantasy Gotham City and the entire game was about corrupt political organizations jockeying for power with violent crime syndicates, and the players were presented with the problem of collecting info from someone and they wanted to run an elaborate, weeks long heist involving disguises....like where would Infiltration Expertise fit in? If one of the players had the ability, would I say "perfect, not even going to make you roll, here's the info." Very plausible answer. What would I say if no one had the ability, but they wanted to do a heist anyway? In what two ways should I resolve it such that 1) Infiltration Expertise actually means something, and 2) while still encouraging creativity from the players (like what if one of them is playing a changeling eloquence bard?? Do I call for checks in excess of 23, just so they don't auto-pass? What if no one is playing a super-spy, and it's just the warlock riffing with Mask of Many Faces and a +9 Deception check?).

I just don't understand what slice of the game this ability is supposed to be about. Skills and their results have essentially no rules at all, so DM's are constantly making in the moment judgement calls about what they mean. Thus, many DMs default to "well, it should be possible for the players to do what they want because that's more fun and the game moves better, but it shouldn't be too easy either cause that's ALSO not fun," so the DC gets set at 6-12 points above whatever the modifier is of the rolling character. And then this ability, Infiltration Expertise, is written like Deception and Disguise Kits do X and Y and now with Infiltration Expertise you can do Z. But they're not written like that; nothing to do with the skill system is.

[Dr.Samurai]

No, I said no such thing. You're treating the kit like it is its own ability but that's now how either version of the game works. There are only 6 ability checks in D&D, corresponding to the 6 ability scores - Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis, and Cha. I'm not making a "Disguise Kit" check - I'm making a Charisma check and then asking the GM whether a proficiency or expertise my character has applies.

If you make a Disguise, you have to make an ability check. If you have proficiency in the Disguise Kit, you can add your proficiency to the ability check. The Deception skill does not let you add your proficiency bonus to a check when you make a disguise. I don't know where you are getting that from.

If I'm trying to fool someone with a false identity and I have Expertise in Deception and Proficiency in a Disguise Kit, then I can ask the DM if the Disguise I created with my use the Disguise Kit to grant advantage on my Charisma (Deception) roll, resulting in Expertise + Advantage as per Xanathar's 78 / UA8 pg 30.

No one is disputing this (assuming people are using this optional rule, as an example two of my DMs do not use this). It's just irrelevant. The assassin can also do this if there is some obvious reason to suspect him and he needs to make a Deception check. The point is the actual disguise itself and the false identity. You haven't demonstrated how you can even come close to an unfailing false identity. Looks like you're getting around 16 or 17 on average on your check, and same for your forged documents. Anyone that challenges you can beat that with just a lucky die roll, let alone any modifiers the DM might add.

Adding to the above, the challenge here is having a believable false identity. Both Disguise and Forgery kits will play a role in that, but the ultimate check would be Charisma (Deception), to be believed. Simply putting on a wig without any attempt to act like the persona would act does nothing.

You need a believable disguise first Psyren. Otherwise the uber Deception check that you're making will be to explain why you are wearing a wig and a false nose, and why you have falsified papers. That's not a check you want to be making. In fact, as I already said, anyone noticing your crappy disguise/papers might not believe any lie you tell them, might immediately try to remove you from the premises, detain you, get their supervisor, etc. Like... you're trying to bypass the entire disguise part of the false identity by just assuming that you can lie yourself into convincing someone you have a credible disguise. That's now how it works. You have to have a credible disguise, and then lie to play the part convincingly.

The level 9 Assassin doesn't have to do that; they are simply assumed to be the false identity they are presenting.

If my base class gives me a minimum roll of 20, very likely approaching 30, then I don't actually need a crappy ribbon that guarantees believability - I'll take my chances. (And a subclass with actual features.)

This only works because you are completely bypassing the need to roll for Disguise/Forgery. You're just subsuming it into the Disguise skill, as I jested in my previous post about you DMing for someone that wants to replicate the feature.

In reality, you would need to roll to forge those documents and make those disguises, without Expertise, and with your cha/int modifier. So yes, you will take your chances and not have anywhere near the success rate of the Assassin. You'll be straining your DMs generosity by having to roll Deception to explain that you were caught in a storm and your documents got wet and you had to dry them out and that's why they look funny and explaining that the reason your uniform looks different is because it was a hand me down when resources were tight, etc. Like... instead of actually making progress and infiltrating this place, you're going to be using your psi-dice to keep the mission from failing in the first interaction, assuming your DM even lets you salvage a botched forgery/disguise contest.

Yes - if there's only a week before the infiltration and Assassins are the only ones who can actually attempt to infiltrate in that week, regardless of training, then you are functionally telling Bards and Soulknives and everyone else to go take a hike.

You're conflating a simple infiltration (breaking and entering) with assuming a persona that is so well-supported people don't question its authenticity. The two are not the same thing.

But in practice, I just don't see it working that way. For instance, if I was the DM and I was running a campaign that took place within high fantasy Gotham City and the entire game was about corrupt political organizations jockeying for power with violent crime syndicates, and the players were presented with the problem of collecting info from someone and they wanted to run an elaborate, weeks long heist involving disguises....like where would Infiltration Expertise fit in? If one of the players had the ability, would I say "perfect, not even going to make you roll, here's the info." Very plausible answer. What would I say if no one had the ability, but they wanted to do a heist anyway? In what two ways should I resolve it such that 1) Infiltration Expertise actually means something, and 2) while still encouraging creativity from the players (like what if one of them is playing a changeling eloquence bard?? Do I call for checks in excess of 23, just so they don't auto-pass? What if no one is playing a super-spy, and it's just the warlock riffing with Mask of Many Faces and a +9 Deception check?).

I don't understand the dilemma here. Why can't the warlock with +9 Deception and Mask of Many Faces dupe someone into giving them information? It's just a different way to do it. I'm not sure what's the confusion here. The warlock is not creating a whole new persona that is affiliated somehow with this organization and can waltz in. The warlock is likely using Mask of Many Faces to make themselves look like someone else in the organization, and then their Deception is to pose as that person. People that interact with the illusion will figure it out, and the warlock will need to make checks to keep the ruse going so long as they haven't discovered the illusion.

An assassin is going to do exactly what Batman does in this exact same scenario in actual Gotham City; assume the guise of someone in that circle and gather information that way. Batman uses the identity of Matches Malone. It's a little different, as Malone was a real criminal already that died, and no one knew except Batman, so he takes the identity and uses it to infiltrate the criminal underworld whenever he wants. The assassin would do the same thing, except they have to invent up a new persona, but they also get the background to make it like a real life person that people believe exists.

[Blatant Beast]

Or, perhaps, with words and time? If I picked the farmer background, I wouldnt expect an ability check to let me grow a stalk of corn on the spot.

The Background examples are Apples and Oranges. 5e has a number of abilities that enhance one's ability to impersonate and/or pretend to be someone you are not, beyond the Assassin's abilities.

The Actor Feat allows the following:

• You have an advantage on Charisma (Deception) and Charisma (Performance) checks when trying to pass yourself off as a different person.
  
• You can mimic the speech of another person or the sounds made by other creatures. You must have heard the person speaking, or heard the creature make the sound, for at least 1 minute. A successful Wisdom (Insight) check contested by your Charisma (Deception) check allows a listener to determine that the effect is faked.

Infiltration Expertise only allows you to unfailingly make a cover I.D. An Assassin has hookups for dead people's Social Security numbers, other Rogues have to make Ability checks or potentially pay more than 25 gold pieces. As everyone has agreed in this thread, Rogues, are pretty good at making checks they have invested in.

The Assassin's Imposter ability, I will point out is worse than the mimicry the Actor feat enables.
The Assassin's Infiltration Expertise ability at 9th level, and Imposter ability at 13th level, are only marginally better than the Charlatan Background's fake I.D., and the Imposter ability is worse than the Actor Feat.

A Kenku PC can instantly mimic any sound, and has Advantage on forging anything, including documents.

The Assassins subclasses middle level abilities have had no niche protection, and have been stepped on by other abilities since day one of 5e's release.

[strangebloke]

I think by far the biggest issue of the level 9 feature is that I literally can't conceive of myself ever using it in a real campaign. It's unbelievably antisocial.

You spend seven days building this identity. Okay, so we're already assuming a huge break in downtime for this ability to even be usable. Okay, then I get to have my second identity. I can use this to go, almost certainly by myself, into some location and do something. Steal some item, read some document, etc.

Okay. Let's assume for the sake of argument that this was the most efficient way to accomplish the task at hand. (it'd be pretty unusual if it was, tbh, but let's assume.)

What are the other players at the table doing? The entire point is a deep cover, right? Well to get advantage out of a deep cover, you have to spend a LONG TIME in cover. This sounds like most of a session where I'm just having a private talk with the DM about rooms I'm exploring and things I'm reading and traps I'm setting up. I'm sure if you really sit and think you can come up with a way for this ability to be useful in a non-antisocial way, but overall I'd just rather not.

It's like. Imagine if there was a character ability that let you gain 50 GP if you spent a minute dancing at the site of a victory. It'd be good! But oh my lord would it be annoying to play with the victory dancer guy.