What drives a poor reputation for the Rogue class?

[Psyren]

I'm not overly fond of just slapping spell on everything as a fix. Not only does it reinforce the idea that all cool options are spells, it lazy and the power budget is all over the place.

Then you have the same issue you have with racial spells regarding components.

You say lazy, I say efficient. All that text and metatext is already in the spell chapter so pointing a feature there makes a lot of sense.

Spells are also already benchmarked by class level in terms of relative power. It's not perfect by any means, but designers, players, and DMs can look at a feature that grants Nondetection and gauge whether that's truly worthwhile at 9th level when casters are getting it at 5th and half-casters at 7th, potentially multiple times per long rest even.

[stoutstien]

You say lazy, I say efficient. All that text and metatext is already in the spell chapter so pointing a feature there makes a lot of sense.

Spells are also already benchmarked by class level in terms of relative power. It's not perfect by any means, but designers, players, and DMs can look at a feature that grants Nondetection and gauge whether that's truly worthwhile at 9th level when casters are getting it at 5th and half-casters at 7th, potentially multiple times per long rest even.

You still have to check it case by case as spell power and impact varies widely so it's not saving any time. If the bench mark is "cherry pick" the sure but that doesn't function with isolated spell<not spells> features.

then you have to fight the "spells do what they say" head space to allow to function in the thematic sense.

Rune knights aren't using spells and they are easy to use. Soul knifes aren't using spells and you don't have much confusion and need to flip to an entirely different section to make it workable. Heck even Mercy monk get a revive that isn't just *cast* the spell that takes up less page space than the spell itself And doesn't bring local economics into consideration.

They shown that it's both possible *and* more streamline to just actual take the time to design proper features rather needing to go digging into the most bloated section just to see what's what.

[Kane0]

Level 9: Foil Discernment
You cannot be detected by magical sensors, and you are immune to magic that allows others to read your thoughts, determine whether you are lying or know your alignment.
To gain this benefit, you can't be unconscious.

[Psyren]

You still have to check it case by case as spell power and impact varies widely so it's not saving any time. If the bench mark is "cherry pick" the sure but that doesn't function with isolated spell<not spells> features.

I disagree; yes, within a given power band you might have to do some analysis of the individual effects, but in broad strokes it is in fact a timesaver. Anyone can look at something like Fireball or Dominate Person or Dimension Door at Tier 1 and know right away that it's too strong, and they should consider effects more in line with Burning Hands/Charm Person/Misty Step at those levels instead.

then you have to fight the "spells do what they say" head space to allow to function in the thematic sense.

Putting aside that "spells do what they say" is a player admonition rather than DM or designer handcuffs - I don't see why that wouldn't apply to non-spell features too. Interpreting something open-ended might take a lot of discussion, but merely recognizing that it IS open-ended shouldn't.

Rune knights aren't using spells and they are easy to use. Soul knifes aren't using spells and you don't have much confusion and need to flip to an entirely different section to make it workable. Heck even Mercy monk get a revive that isn't just *cast* the spell that takes up less page space than the spell itself And doesn't bring local economics into consideration.

They shown that it's both possible *and* more streamline to just actual take the time to design proper features rather needing to go digging into the most bloated section just to see what's what.

Look, I'm not saying every single martial ability under the sun needs to be a spell. But something like Ancestral Guardian Barbarian saying "you can summon a spirit now! It can look around corners or the other side of a door etc for you and tells you what it sees/hears, and can also advise you on an immediate course of action" simply invoking Clairvoyance/Augury, does save a lot of text.

[Dr.Samurai]

OK. What do you think of my suggestion that at level 9 the Assassin gets to cast nondetection (3rd level) once per long rest.

I'm not overly fond of just slapping spell on everything as a fix. Not only does it reinforce the idea that all cool options are spells, it lazy and the power budget is all over the place.

If you go to the original post I made on this a few pages back, I pointed out that
you can make it a feature, another Martial Character has a level 5 spell as a feature that is thematic at about that level.

An assassin who can disappear (for up to 8 hours) even from magical detection begins to address the complaints about upper Tier 2 and Lower Tier 3 foes ... who have all kinds of ways to see otherwise locate the assassin as currently written.

I agree with all of this.

I think something like--- well, I just got back to my computer and see Kane0 posted something pretty spot on so something like that

Though I like Soul of Deceit because instead of making you blanket immune, you can still interact with the divination. So instead of someone not registering anything with Detect Thoughts, you can present false surface thoughts.

[stoutstien]

I
Look, I'm not saying every single martial ability under the sun needs to be a spell. But something like Ancestral Guardian Barbarian saying "you can summon a spirit now! It can look around corners or the other side of a door etc for you and tells you what it sees/hears, and can also advise you on an immediate course of action" simply invoking Clairvoyance/Augury, does save a lot of text.

It's not saving any text. It's just breaking it up into three different locations.

You could easily condense it down to half the size of the three now and make more flavorful than "it's all spiritual now. see it looks different"

[Kane0]

I think something like--- well, I just got back to my computer and see Kane0 posted something pretty spot on so something like that

Though I like Soul of Deceit because instead of making you blanket immune, you can still interact with the divination. So instead of someone not registering anything with Detect Thoughts, you can present false surface thoughts.

Oh yeah good catch, though if you're offering a save to do so it should be noted that slippery mind doesnt come along until level 15.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

It's not saving any text. It's just breaking it up into three different locations.

You could easily condense it down to half the size of the three now and make more flavorful than "it's all spiritual now. see it looks different"

'It's all spiritual' is where I stopped looking at new 5E material and checked out of OneDnD.

[Psyren]

It's not saving any text. It's just breaking it up into three different locations.

Of course it's saving text. If they want to give Clairvoyance and Augury to AG Barbarians without referencing the spell, how exactly would you propose they do it?

'It's all spiritual' is where I stopped looking at new 5E material and checked out of OneDnD.

This is a different (tired) complaint than referencing spells in features.

[Kane0]

'It's all spiritual' is where I stopped looking at new 5E material and checked out of OneDnD.

You mean spectral?

Of course it's saving text. If they want to give Clairvoyance and Augury to AG Barbarians without referencing the spell, how exactly would you propose they do it?

Challenge accepted!

Consult the spirits
At 10th level, you gain the ability to consult with your ancestral spirits. When you do so, you cast the Augury or Clairvoyance spell, without using a spell slot or material components. Rather than creating a spherical sensor, this use of clairvoyance invisibly summons one of your ancestral spirits to the chosen location. Wisdom is your spellcasting ability for these spells.

After you cast either spell in this way, you can't use this feature again until you finish a short or long rest

Consult the Spirits
At 10th level, you gain the ability to request information of your ancestors. By spending 1 minute concentrating you may ask one question which your ancestral spirits answer to the best of their ability, or request they relay to you what they can see and hear from a location that is familiar or obvious to you (such as around a corner or behind a door) within 1 mile.

After you use this ability, you cannot do so again until you finish a short or long rest

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

You mean spectral?

Yeah, that's the one. Swarmkeeper gets spectral bugs that do physical damage! Warlock summons a spectral tentacle! Spectral music note thing! Makes me miss the wild sourcebooks of 3.0. This class literally just uses chains and they're real chains. You have to carry fifty chains around to use your class features. You can't just manifest spectral chains proficiency bonus times per long rest!

[Witty Username]

You mean spectral?


Challenge accepted!



Consult the Spirits
At 10th level, you gain the ability to request information of your ancestors. By spending 1 minute concentrating you may ask one question which your ancestral spirits answer to the best of their ability, or request they relay to you what they can see and hear from a location that is familiar or obvious to you (such as around a corner or behind a door) within 1 mile.

After you use this ability, you cannot do so again until you finish a short or long rest

Being able to drop a whole sentence for the spellcasting stat definitely helps some.

[Psyren]

Consult the Spirits
At 10th level, you gain the ability to request information of your ancestors. By spending 1 minute concentrating you may ask one question which your ancestral spirits answer to the best of their ability, or request they relay to you what they can see and hear from a location that is familiar or obvious to you (such as around a corner or behind a door) within 1 mile.

After you use this ability, you cannot do so again until you finish a short or long rest

So you completely omitted the Augury ability beyond "ask a question", including the stuff the DM needs to know (e.g. "circumstances that might change the outcome"), as well as multiple important details from Clairvoyance (the duration, the sensor/spirit being noticeable to creatures that can see invisibility, the fact that it uses your own senses to relay information, the fact that you have to choose which sense it uses instead of getting both as you wrote it, etc.) Challenge failed.

[stoutstien]

Here is a first pass over for AGs lv 10 feature. Needs a polish and probably a few reworks but IMO better than "here some spells"

Consult the spirits

At 10th level, you gain the ability to maintain a constant connection with your ancestral spirits. If you spend at least a minute in communion they can provide you with guidance for up to 10 minutes in one of the following forms:
-Farsight. The sprits provide limited foresight for your immediate plans. They can provide guidance if the results will be favorable or detrimental but cannot foresee elements based on the actions of the living.

-through the veil. The sprits whisk a part of your soul away and allow you to witness the world from their eyes. Choose a location that is well known to you or a location you or one in your immediate area that you can describe. While your movement is hampered to a few feet from that location, you have advantage on all perception checks as the spirits assist your senses.

Honor of the fallen. You and one other creatures of your choice within 30 feet can recover a number of hit dice equal to your wisdom modifier. When doing so each creature can immediately expend one and recover the maximum amounts.

Once you use this feature, you must finish a short or long rest before you can use it again.

[Kane0]

Ooh I like the Honor the Fallen portion, thats a nice addition

So you completely omitted the Augury ability beyond "ask a question", including the stuff the DM needs to know, as well as multiple important details from Clairvoyance

Oh yeah, missed the duration and senses, that'd be an extra line.

Personally I think the DM would be able to handle answering questions though, and this way you arent limited to certain kinds of questions/responses (though does assume good faith on the part of the DM)

[LudicSavant]

Yeah, that's the one. Swarmkeeper gets spectral bugs that do physical damage! Warlock summons a spectral tentacle! Spectral music note thing! Makes me miss the wild sourcebooks of 3.0. This class literally just uses chains and they're real chains. You have to carry fifty chains around to use your class features. You can't just manifest spectral chains proficiency bonus times per long rest!

I had a pretty similar reaction.

[Witty Username]

Personally I think the DM would be able to handle answering questions though, and this way you arent limited to certain kinds of questions/responses (though does assume good faith on the part of the DM)

Just answer weal and woe to every question, its usually right.

[Psyren]

Here is a first pass over for AGs lv 10 feature. Needs a polish and probably a few reworks but IMO better than "here some spells"

Consult the spirits

At 10th level, you gain the ability to maintain a constant connection with your ancestral spirits. If you spend at least a minute in communion they can provide you with guidance for up to 10 minutes in one of the following forms:
-Farsight. The sprits provide limited foresight for your immediate plans. They can provide guidance if the results will be favorable or detrimental but cannot foresee elements based on the actions of the living.

-through the veil. The sprits whisk a part of your soul away and allow you to witness the world from their eyes. Choose a location that is well known to you or a location you or one in your immediate area that you can describe. While your movement is hampered to a few feet from that location, you have advantage on all perception checks as the spirits assist your senses.

Honor of the fallen. You and one other creatures of your choice within 30 feet can recover a number of hit dice equal to your wisdom modifier. When doing so each creature can immediately expend one and recover the maximum amounts.

Once you use this feature, you must finish a short or long rest before you can use it again.

You missed the following:

- Favorable AND detrimental outcomes
- Neither favorable nor detrimental
- The definition of "immediate" (i.e. next 30 minutes)
- The definition of "plans" (i.e. one action/course of action)
- Can no longer see past obstacles or into enclosures
- No more counterplay from the sensor
- Hampered movement for some strange reason (Clairvoyance doesn't interfere with your personal movement or ability to perceive, not sure why you're adding restrictions)

And then you started weirdly adding things like the healing and advantage.

And in exchange for all that loss of clarity, outright functionality, and the weird additions that you felt like I guess? You went from 60 words for the ability to over 200, and still to have need actual Clairvoyance and Augury spells in the spells chapter.

I remain unconvinced.

[Kane0]

Yeah, that's the one. Swarmkeeper gets spectral bugs that do physical damage! Warlock summons a spectral tentacle! Spectral music note thing!

I had a pretty similar reaction.

I think its largely cause if you make the bugs, tentacles, etc real then they need to interact and have stats and stuff and that would be hard i guess.
But yeah, i'd prefer they be tangible and stuff even if they are conjured.

[stoutstien]

You missed the following:

- Favorable AND detrimental outcomes
- Neither favorable nor detrimental
- The definition of "immediate" (i.e. next 30 minutes)
- The definition of "plans" (i.e. one action/course of action)
- Can no longer see past obstacles or into enclosures
- No more counterplay from the sensor
- Hampered movement for some strange reason (Clairvoyance doesn't interfere with your personal movement or ability to perceive, not sure why you're adding restrictions)

And then you started weirdly adding things like the healing and advantage.

And in exchange for all that loss of clarity, outright functionality, and the weird additions that you felt like I guess? You went from 60 words for the ability to over 200, and still to have need actual Clairvoyance and Augury spells in the spells chapter.

I remain unconvinced.

The point was to *not* just be spells that are only mildly inline with the class. The wording can be cleaned up because it was a first draft without stopping.

The sprits are now a npc(s) that can be interacted with as such rather just effects with no real presence.

[Psyren]

The point was to *not* just be spells that are only mildly inline with the class. The wording can be cleaned up because it was a first draft without stopping.

The sprits are now a npc(s) that can be interacted with as such rather just effects with no real presence.

And that's totally fine for whatever homebrew you're interested in inventing, but the question was why the designers reference spells in features as a matter of course; the answer isbecause they want the class to have those specific abilities, with all they entail.

[stoutstien]

And that's totally fine for whatever homebrew you're interested in inventing, but the question was why the designers reference spells in features as a matter of course; the answer isbecause they want the class to have those specific abilities, with all they entail.

I doubt it. They grabbed whatever close and stuck it in. That the issue with using prepackaged elements like spells on a chassis that doesn't also get the ability to pick and choose them to some extent.

[Kane0]

Also still needing to adjust the spell for it to fit with an extra line or two anyways. Fey Ranger does it too, omitting concentration and changing the duration of the summon. Feels like it defeats the purpose somewhat

[Psyren]

I doubt it.

Doubt away.

Also still needing to adjust the spell for it to fit with an extra line or two anyways. Fey Ranger does it too, omitting concentration and changing the duration of the summon. Feels like it defeats the purpose somewhat

Adding a small clause like "without components or a spell slot" is a several leagues different in terms of real estate from what you two were doing/omitting.

[Witty Username]

On spell duplication for subclass features.
I don't mind them when they are fit for purpose, things like concentration and components can get clunky.
But the less the effect uses the spell rules, and the more specific the effect's theme, the less it benefits to use a spell.

Oh, and at least if we are going book design, maybe avoid spells that aren't in the PHB, otherwise it loses out on the saving text by requiring a whole other book for the subclass to function.

[KorvinStarmast]

Level 9: Foil Discernment
You cannot be detected by magical sensors, and you are immune to magic that allows others to read your thoughts, determine whether you are lying or know your alignment.
To gain this benefit, you can't be unconscious.

As ever, Kane0 comes through. +1

[Dalinar]

Figured I'd chime in on the spell vs class feature ease of use thing.

If you are using a physical copy of the books, with physical character sheets, at a physical table, it's gonna be pretty annoying flipping from the front to the back to double check how your feature works a lot, and it's pretty likely you don't have the exact text of every spell on your character sheet handy, either. (Maybe you invest in one of those decks of spell flashcards, and you bring the ones you expect to use.)

If you are playing on a VTT or you have the books/sheets on a laptop or tablet or similar, you're gonna have hypertext, or a search feature, or some other way to reference that information quickly.

They're different experiences, and I think there's less friction in having to reference a spell elsewhere in the latter case. I'm no professional, but I'd think it's easier to adapt physical games to digital resources than try to design under the assumption of digital speed and backport it to physical-only play.

The other thing is that, with class-feature-that-is-just-a-spell, tweaks to the spell affect every class that gets the spell. If I am a new/homebrew class that gets Bless from a special source, and Bless is nerfed due to other classes, that affects my homebrew class too. It also means that my Bless can't stack with normal Bless, which is probably desirable in the case of Bless (see how everyone reacted to Peace Cleric), but may or may not be the design intent. Having a similar-but-not-the-same class feature means it can stack, but it also means that balance changes happen in a more granular way. (Granted, most of those balance changes are going to happen before a book hits print anyway.)

Either way, I don't think it's straightforwardly better or worse.