What drives a poor reputation for the Rogue class?

[Kane0]

*madly scribbling notes*

Okay so that's Assassin, Mastermind and Inquisitive that all need work done, any others? What if we just smooshed some of these together? If Rogue gets a more stabdard 3, 6, 10, 14 subclass spread courtesy of PHB 2024 what changes there?

[Psyren]

If Rogue gets a more stabdard 3, 6, 10, 14 subclass spread courtesy of PHB 2024 what changes there?

FYI that got reverted, the subclass spread in 2024 = the one from 2014. They pointed to Cunning Strike as the compensation for that; it gave them a reason to design something to fill in 2014 Rogue's massive feature deadzone* from 3->9.

*This isn't to say that they got nothing between those levels, but Evasion/UD/a couple more expertises weren't exactly earth-shattering either.

While you're looking at subclasses to buff though, I think Scout could use some work. I had made a suggestion for that one over on the DnDBeyond forums, I'll see if I can dig it up.

[LudicSavant]

*madly scribbling notes*

Okay so that's Assassin, Mastermind and Inquisitive that all need work done, any others? What if we just smooshed some of these together?

You could probably smoosh all of the noncombat features of Assassin, Mastermind, and Inquisitive together and still have less than the Soulknife gets.

[stoutstien]

*madly scribbling notes*

Okay so that's Assassin, Mastermind and Inquisitive that all need work done, any others? What if we just smooshed some of these together? If Rogue gets a more stabdard 3, 6, 10, 14 subclass spread courtesy of PHB 2024 what changes there?

Scout and phantom are pretty underwhelming as well until you get to the upper tiers.

[LudicSavant]

You could probably smoosh all of the noncombat features of Assassin, Mastermind, and Inquisitive together and still have less than the Soulknife gets.

Assassin's level 9 and 13 features are the sort of things that you could arguably have done with regular skill checks even if the feature never existed. What's more, these identities that take you, a high level adventurer, a very long time to craft can fall apart to low level divinations. This is at a level where you're running up against the courts of mighty otherworldly beings and the like.

Mastermind's level 17 feature is useful for spoofing low level divinations, it's just a shame that they get it at, well, level 17.

Inquisitive has basically one non-combat feature that matters more than a ribbon and it's Steady Eye.

___

By comparison, a Soulknife has a larger-than-Expertise bonus that can be applied to checks a spammable number of times per day (that stacks with Advantage, Expertise, etc, and doesn't even use a resource unless it converts failure into success), telepathy, invisibility, teleportation, and an inability to leave all their weapons at the door

[Skrum]

By comparison, a Soulknife has a larger-than-Expertise bonus that can be applied to checks a spammable number of times per day (that stacks with Advantage, Expertise, etc, and doesn't even use a resource unless it converts failure into success), telepathy, invisibility, teleportation, and an inability to leave all their weapons at the door

I really do enjoy soulknife's boosted knack.

Fun story of failing a wisdom save, my barb/rogue got dominated and the bad guy sent him after the party's rune knight. They had a BADA** wrestling match where the rune knight lost a grapple for perhaps the first time ever, and it was because I said "nope, I win anyway" with an extra d6.

Spammable is indeed the word. I've never even used half of my dice before getting a rest. And it is immensely satisfying to dig a failure out.

===========

Is there any rogue subclass where it would be imbalanced to just push their abilities to 6th, 10th, and 14th? Like that might be the place to start. Give them their stuff 3 levels earlier.

[Witty Username]

You could probably smoosh all of the noncombat features of Assassin, Mastermind, and Inquisitive together and still have less than the Soulknife gets.

Doesn't that just add up to Assassin?

[Psyren]

Found my Scout recommendations:

Spoiler

Show

Skirmisher: The big problem with this is the enemy has to end their turn next to you before you can move away, meaning they probably already poured all their attacks into you, so it doesn't actually protect you. My recommendation was that you can also activate this whenever you activate Uncanny Dodge (once you get that), meaning you no-sell their first hit and then move half your speed away before they can fire off any more. As a ranged rogue, most enemies should need their whole movement to reach you, so getting only one hit off that does half-damage will make you a lot tougher in practice.

Survivalist: This is a ribbon but that's fine since it's concurrent with Skirmisher. It has the usual problem of specific-proficiency ribbons in that it forces you to start without the thematic proficiencies in order not to waste them - so your outdoorsy rogue goes from sucking at being outdoorsy (no Nature/Survival at level 1) to being a pro overnight. This should either give you two proficiencies of your choice from the rogue list if you already have Nature and Survival. or give you Expertise in both of them once you hit 3 - either approach would encourage you to grab them at level 1, and play into your fantasy of being the spell-less Ranger Rogue.

Superior Mobility: This should actually give you climb and swim speeds; again, "spell-less ranger" is the fantasy for this subclass. +10ft is also weak for a 9th-level feature, I'd go for +20, allowing your Scout to easily get to sniper perches (rooftops, treetops, across streams etc.)

Ambush Master: I'd change this one from the first enemy you hit to the first enemy you attack. That way you benefit from the advantage too, without needing Steady Aim that first round so you get to position easily. That's fine for a T3 ability.

Sudden Strike: I would allow your SA to work on the same target twice, but if you do that the second one only does half damage. That makes it useful even for big boss fights with no minions.

[LudicSavant]

Is there any rogue subclass where it would be imbalanced to just push their abilities to 6th, 10th, and 14th? Like that might be the place to start. Give them their stuff 3 levels earlier.

The biggest beneficiaries would likely be Thief (because of their level 17 feature) and Phantom (because of Ghost Walk and Death's Friend).

[Dork_Forge]

Found my Scout recommendations:

Spoiler

Show

Skirmisher: The big problem with this is the enemy has to end their turn next to you before you can move away, meaning they probably already poured all their attacks into you, so it doesn't actually protect you. My recommendation was that you can also activate this whenever you activate Uncanny Dodge (once you get that), meaning you no-sell their first hit and then move half your speed away before they can fire off any more. As a ranged rogue, most enemies should need their whole movement to reach you, so getting only one hit off that does half-damage will make you a lot tougher in practice.

Survivalist: This is a ribbon but that's fine since it's concurrent with Skirmisher. It has the usual problem of specific-proficiency ribbons in that it forces you to start without the thematic proficiencies in order not to waste them - so your outdoorsy rogue goes from sucking at being outdoorsy (no Nature/Survival at level 1) to being a pro overnight. This should either give you two proficiencies of your choice from the rogue list if you already have Nature and Survival. or give you Expertise in both of them once you hit 3 - either approach would encourage you to grab them at level 1, and play into your fantasy of being the spell-less Ranger Rogue.

Superior Mobility: This should actually give you climb and swim speeds; again, "spell-less ranger" is the fantasy for this subclass. +10ft is also weak for a 9th-level feature, I'd go for +20, allowing your Scout to easily get to sniper perches (rooftops, treetops, across streams etc.)

Ambush Master: I'd change this one from the first enemy you hit to the first enemy you attack. That way you benefit from the advantage too, without needing Steady Aim that first round so you get to position easily. That's fine for a T3 ability.

Sudden Strike: I would allow your SA to work on the same target twice, but if you do that the second one only does half damage. That makes it useful even for big boss fights with no minions.

I like these changes, particularly tying the runaway movement to Uncanny Dodge.

I wouldn't bump Superior Mobility to 20ft though, just 10ft and give climb+swim speeds if they're missing. No feature gives such a big speed bump in one go, it even takes the Monk 9 levels to get up to a +20ft. 80ft. (avg/mostly minimum) with CA Dash is still a whole heck load of speed and the fastest Rogue as standard.

[Psyren]

I like these changes, particularly tying the runaway movement to Uncanny Dodge.

I wouldn't bump Superior Mobility to 20ft though, just 10ft and give climb+swim speeds if they're missing. No feature gives such a big speed bump in one go, it even takes the Monk 9 levels to get up to a +20ft. 80ft. (avg/mostly minimum) with CA Dash is still a whole heck load of speed and the fastest Rogue as standard.

That's what made me think of 20ft, because that's the same level Monk would get it; but I agree, I'd be fine with 10 if we wanted to keep that size boost as the Monk's thing.

(Note that 2024 Monk is getting the same spammable/resourceless BA dash the rogue currently has)

[Dork_Forge]

That's what made me think of 20ft, because that's the same level Monk would get it; but I agree, I'd be fine with 10 if we wanted to keep that size boost as the Monk's thing.

(Note that 2024 Monk is getting the same spammable/resourceless BA dash the rogue currently has)

I don't really consider 2024 when tweaking 5e, I try and stick to the spirit of the system, 2024 is more it's own thing to me.

As for the Monk getting the spammable in 2024, that's okay. To me, the Rogue is a very mobile class, but the Monk is the mobile class. Mobility is a much bigger chunk of a Monk's class identity than it is for the Rogue.

[Skrum]

The biggest beneficiaries would likely be Thief (because of their level 17 feature) and Phantom (because of Ghost Walk and Death's Friend).

In terms of abilities to give non-casters at level 10+, I can't easily think of something I'd call "overpowered." Literally just give them stuff. Of the current crop of powers, 9 out of 10 t3 and t4 martial abilities would not be out of place at level 6 (or less!).

[Crusher]

In terms of abilities to give non-casters at level 10+, I can't easily think of something I'd call "overpowered." Literally just give them stuff. Of the current crop of powers, 9 out of 10 t3 and t4 martial abilities would not be out of place at level 6 (or less!).

Yeah, I'm sure someone's noted this in the thread somewhere already, but the main thing preventing casters from being more obviously recognized as too powerful is most campaigns ending well before Tier 4. So not only do people not see level 20 casters in action very much, those casters don't get a ton of practice at the things that make them OP

Edit - Its there at low levels, too, it just takes more work by everyone so its less likely to happen or get noticed. I've been DMing for roughly the same group for a few years, and they only intermittently remember that the casters can utterly trivialize a lot of obstacles if they pick the right spells are are willing to spend their spell slots doing anything other than nuking the monsters.

Edit2 - In a campaign I'm running, the Druid decided to really lean into Moon Druid wildshaping and, especially once he could turn into elementals, its worked out pretty well for him. A side effect is that since he can spend most combats wildshaped (and still be reasonably effective), he's got all of his spellslots to play with out of combat. For a while he'd heal people after fights, but now he's investing heavily in utility spells, and I'm like "Uh, oh" because I'm afraid the party is starting to figure out how thoroughly they're just melting the non-combat obstacles I'm throwing at them.

[Skrum]

Found my Scout recommendations:

Spoiler

Show

Skirmisher: The big problem with this is the enemy has to end their turn next to you before you can move away, meaning they probably already poured all their attacks into you, so it doesn't actually protect you. My recommendation was that you can also activate this whenever you activate Uncanny Dodge (once you get that), meaning you no-sell their first hit and then move half your speed away before they can fire off any more. As a ranged rogue, most enemies should need their whole movement to reach you, so getting only one hit off that does half-damage will make you a lot tougher in practice.

Survivalist: This is a ribbon but that's fine since it's concurrent with Skirmisher. It has the usual problem of specific-proficiency ribbons in that it forces you to start without the thematic proficiencies in order not to waste them - so your outdoorsy rogue goes from sucking at being outdoorsy (no Nature/Survival at level 1) to being a pro overnight. This should either give you two proficiencies of your choice from the rogue list if you already have Nature and Survival. or give you Expertise in both of them once you hit 3 - either approach would encourage you to grab them at level 1, and play into your fantasy of being the spell-less Ranger Rogue.

Superior Mobility: This should actually give you climb and swim speeds; again, "spell-less ranger" is the fantasy for this subclass. +10ft is also weak for a 9th-level feature, I'd go for +20, allowing your Scout to easily get to sniper perches (rooftops, treetops, across streams etc.)

Ambush Master: I'd change this one from the first enemy you hit to the first enemy you attack. That way you benefit from the advantage too, without needing Steady Aim that first round so you get to position easily. That's fine for a T3 ability.

Sudden Strike: I would allow your SA to work on the same target twice, but if you do that the second one only does half damage. That makes it useful even for big boss fights with no minions.

Love the Skirmisher idea

Skirmisher: beginning at level 3, as a reaction to taking damage from an attack, you may move up to half your speed without provoking opportunity attacks. At level 5, you may move up to half your speed without provoking OA's after you use Uncanny Dodge.

The wording for Survivalist really has the "early game" vibes. They didn't really think this one through

Entirely agree on Superior Mobility; as of Tasha's ALL rangers get this at level 6. Lol. This should be +10, and climb and swim speed, and it should be move to level 6.

Ambush Master...yeah this should be at level 10, and it should apply to the rogue's first attack (ALL barbs get adv on initiative at level 7!!)

Sudden Strike, even if it was moved to 14 and even with the changes you suggested, still underwhelms me. This is a subclass capstone, after all. Off the top of my head, I would favor something like

Sudden Strike: as part of using your Skirmisher or Uncanny Dodge reaction, you may make a melee attack against the attacking creature. If the attack hits, you may apply half of your sneak attack dice to the damage.

[Dr.Samurai]

That's quite a translation of "This is the best non-combat feature that Inquisitives get."

The words you typed bear no resemblance to what optimizers actually told you.

Yeah... "This is the nicest turd of the four floaters in the bowl" is not high praise.

I don't think "if you don't care about speed and your party doesn't mind you making them travel slower..." is a fair assessment of the feature. Not because I think the feature is amazing, but because you can't Stealth without traveling at a Slow pace, and Pass Without Trace is being pushed in this thread every other post. In other words, one would expect that the party is already traveling slowly, and this feature is basically just a free buff to your Perception/Investigation whenever you're stealthing. But that's not how you portrayed it.

And given that we're dealing with this notion that the rogue is selfish, and you're framing the feature like the rogue is slowing the party down, when any Ranger or Druid casting Pass Without Trace would be doing the exact same thing, it seems important to point it out.

I mentioned previously that I would like a skills guy in my party, and when asked about it, I mentioned someone having Stealth, Perception, Investigation, and Thieves Tools, among other skills. At the level of Steady Eye, and assuming Expertise and a 14 Wisdom/Investigation, the rogue would have Passive Perc/Inv of 20. Steady Eye bumps that to 25 whenever you're traveling at half speed. So if you're sneaking around, you're likely to find every secret door, treasure caches, hidden enemies, traps, and other clues and items that you come across. This may not matter in your games, but it does in mine, as we've found some powerful magic items and consumables by exploring, and keys that grant us access to other locations, among other things. When you're keeping watch, it is unlikely anyone is going to ambush the party when you're rocking a 25 passive perception. Same as when you're attending a function, or in a social encounter and not moving around at full speed (because why would you?); no one is going to sneak by you, succeed at Sleight of Hand, and no clues will be missed about anything happening around you.

Yeah, I'd like someone with this always on feature that notices virtually everything in my party. Now the cleric may have a 19 passive perception at this level, but he probably doesn't have the +13 Stealth check, the 25 passive Investigation, and Expertise in Thieves Tools. The cleric or the druid could use Guidance, but not while you're trying to be sneaky. Meanwhile, the rogue could nab Observant and just be rocking a 30 Passive Perception/Investigation with Steady Eye. And people will say its overkill, and I'll tell them you're not the DM at all tables, and I'm sure there are many many DMs that will think a passive score of 30 in these skills means something.

People might say one person doesn't need these skills together, as was said previously (and that it's selfish to scout ahead). I disagree. There are times when our monk moves forward because we are doing something else, such as transferring all the coins and loot we find, or trying to open a giant sized door, or fixing a room so it doesn't look like we were there. Our DM tracks these things in 10 minute intervals, and the monk, who is stealthy and perceptive, will go down a corridor while we're doing it and check things out up ahead. I don't find this selfish or time-consuming, I find it helpful and a value add to the party. But if he could notice clues and disable traps (Investigation/Thieves Tools) it'd be even better when he does it.

I think saying something like "yeah but he could be a spellcaster instead" is not actually contending with what the class/character is providing to the party. Similar to how complaining that Ear For Deceit is superseded at level 11 says absolutely nothing about how the feature works for you between levels 3 and 10.

[LudicSavant]

Doesn't that just add up to Assassin?

I think Steady Eye (Advantage on Investigation/Perception when moving half speed) might be the most significant feature of the lot. But yeah, throw all 3 together at once and it's still less than Soulknife.

Edit:

Yeah... "This is the nicest turd of the four floaters in the bowl" is not high praise.

It's also not what I said.

Steady Eye is a useful feature. The issue is that the Inquisitive doesn't have a whole lot else.

Similar to how complaining that Ear For Deceit is superseded at level 11 says absolutely nothing about how the feature works for you between levels 3 and 10.

I said something about how the feature works between levels 3 and 10.

Ear for Deceit goes obsolete at level 11 (...) Before then, it only applies to Insight checks to detect if a creature is lying (rather than insight checks in general), and the bonus is paltry -- if it even applies at all, since it doesn't benefit passive insight, which the book suggests using for checks where the DM wouldn't want to reveal if you passed or failed.

You know, like whether a creature is lying.

I can elaborate more:
- It doesn't apply to passive checks, which is relevant for detecting lies.
- If we are instead doing an active contested roll (your insight vs their deception), it works out to an average of +1.4 to the check, or considerably less if you have Advantage.

[Psyren]

Sudden Strike, even if it was moved to 14 and even with the changes you suggested, still underwhelms me. This is a subclass capstone, after all. Off the top of my head, I would favor something like

Sudden Strike: as part of using your Skirmisher or Uncanny Dodge reaction, you may make a melee attack against the attacking creature. If the attack hits, you may apply half of your sneak attack dice to the damage.

A melee attack with what though? Most Scouts would be using a bow of some kind, right? I'd prefer the double attack personally.

[Kane0]

Found my Scout recommendations:

Spoiler

Show

Skirmisher: The big problem with this is the enemy has to end their turn next to you before you can move away, meaning they probably already poured all their attacks into you, so it doesn't actually protect you. My recommendation was that you can also activate this whenever you activate Uncanny Dodge (once you get that), meaning you no-sell their first hit and then move half your speed away before they can fire off any more. As a ranged rogue, most enemies should need their whole movement to reach you, so getting only one hit off that does half-damage will make you a lot tougher in practice.

Survivalist: This is a ribbon but that's fine since it's concurrent with Skirmisher. It has the usual problem of specific-proficiency ribbons in that it forces you to start without the thematic proficiencies in order not to waste them - so your outdoorsy rogue goes from sucking at being outdoorsy (no Nature/Survival at level 1) to being a pro overnight. This should either give you two proficiencies of your choice from the rogue list if you already have Nature and Survival. or give you Expertise in both of them once you hit 3 - either approach would encourage you to grab them at level 1, and play into your fantasy of being the spell-less Ranger Rogue.

Superior Mobility: This should actually give you climb and swim speeds; again, "spell-less ranger" is the fantasy for this subclass. +10ft is also weak for a 9th-level feature, I'd go for +20, allowing your Scout to easily get to sniper perches (rooftops, treetops, across streams etc.)

Ambush Master: I'd change this one from the first enemy you hit to the first enemy you attack. That way you benefit from the advantage too, without needing Steady Aim that first round so you get to position easily. That's fine for a T3 ability.

Sudden Strike: I would allow your SA to work on the same target twice, but if you do that the second one only does half damage. That makes it useful even for big boss fights with no minions.

Very nice, danke. Will be stealing these thoughts. Does the source also go into any other subclasses?

[Skrum]

A melee attack with what though? Most Scouts would be using a bow of some kind, right? I'd prefer the double attack personally.

Ah, I was thinking like a reason for the rogue to be moving in and out of combat (skirmishing!). But fair point.

"Beginning at level 14, you may make an attack after you finish your movement granted from Skirmish or Uncanny Dodge. If that attack hits, you may apply half your sneak attack dice."

[Schwann145]

Assassin's level 9 and 13 features are the sort of things that you could arguably have done with regular skill checks even if the feature never existed. What's more, these identities that take you, a high level adventurer, a very long time to craft can fall apart to low level divinations.

Low level divinations such as what?
The entire point of these two abilities is that they don't fall apart to simple scrutiny. They're not just a quick disguise you threw on at a moment's notice, but actual identities that you painstakingly crafted to be complete and real.

For Infiltration Expertise, there isn't even suggested rolling involved - other creatures just believe your disguise unless "given an obvious reason not to." The ability is described as "unfailing;" I don't think a basic divination is going to offer anyone any "obvious reasons" to doubt it.

For Imposter it's much the same. Casual observers don't even get a roll, and against particularly "wary" observers you get Advantage on your Charisma(Deception) roll, because even for people looking very closely, it's still near-perfect and likely to fool.

[Psyren]

Ah, I was thinking like a reason for the rogue to be moving in and out of combat (skirmishing!). But fair point.

"Beginning at level 14, you may make an attack after you finish your movement granted from Skirmish or Uncanny Dodge. If that attack hits, you may apply half your sneak attack dice."

Yeah I'm okay with that. It actually fits the fantasy too - it's a shot-on-the-run, so it's less precise/damaging

Very nice, danke. Will be stealing these thoughts. Does the source also go into any other subclasses?

Scout was the only one I was interested in tweaking I'm afraid. For reasons like the ones Ludic elaborated on, I consider Inquisitive, Assassin, and Mastermind in need of a full redesign.

[LudicSavant]

Low level divinations such as what?
The entire point of these two abilities is that they don't fall apart to simple scrutiny. They're not just a quick disguise you threw on at a moment's notice, but actual identities that you painstakingly crafted to be complete and real.

For Infiltration Expertise, there isn't even suggested rolling involved - other creatures just believe your disguise unless "given an obvious reason not to." The ability is described as "unfailing;" I don't think a basic divination is going to offer anyone any "obvious reasons" to doubt it.

For Imposter it's much the same. Casual observers don't even get a roll, and against particularly "wary" observers you get Advantage on your Charisma(Deception) roll, because even for people looking very closely, it's still near-perfect and likely to fool.

At level 13+, the kind of things I want to spend such a time investment to infiltrate are like... mind flayers or angels or liches or devils, and their powerful organizations that are adapted to a world where scheming shapechangers are just another standard security concern.

Casual observers aren't the threat, wary guardians with supernatural powers (such as mind reading, or being able to compel truthful statements) are.

I wish it gave something like Mastermind's level 17 feature.

[Schwann145]

It would be a totally reasonable position to take that part of your elaborately crafted disguise includes the method acting to go along with the looks. Your surface thoughts should be totally controllable and if you're knowingly dealing with mind readers and mind reading magic, you should expect to have to "believe your own disguise" for the duration.

Even so, even if you disagree with the above, if you're playing an "infiltrator" type character, such as an Assassin Rogue, and you haven't bothered to pick up a Ring of Mind Shielding (Uncommon) by level 13+ then you deserve to get caught.

[LudicSavant]

The Ring of Mind Shielding is another example of something that's arguably a bigger non-combat feature than everything the subclass gives you.

As for the mental-method-acting-beating-Detect Thoughts thing, if a DM wanted to rule that I would fully support them and consider it reasonable. But in terms of judging what's written in the book and the design thereof, it's 'indiscernible to casual observer, advantage on Deception against others.' And being able to interact with magic such as Detect Thoughts is important enough that it should bear mention by the designers (and indeed, in many other instances, does).

While we're on the topic of what a DM might allow, Xanathar's has this to say: "Advantage. If the use of a tool and the use of a skill both apply to a check, and a character is proficient with the tool and the skill, consider allowing the character to make the check with advantage. This simple benefit can go a long way toward encouraging players to pick up tool proficiencies."

So if disguise kit and Deception both apply, a DM might be giving you advantage anyways.

And you've gotta spend 3 hours stalking the person before you can use Impostor. With that in mind, I have to ask: Just how much better is this disguise than one I could whip up with high check rolls? Because I don't need to be an Assassin for those. In fact, I can boost my skill rolls more if I'm not one.

[Psyren]

"Method act / believe your own disguise enough to fool inevitables and mindflayers" sounds like at least a Hard check to me, if not Very Hard. Which, again, is something the Soulknife will have a much easier time of since they can spike above Expertise with Psi-Bolstered Knack (and advantage from disguise kit + Deception) - when they even need to bother rolling, between being invisible and teleporting around.

In short - the power disparity between the subclasses is the problem. And if they're not going to nerf Soulknife (which they shouldn't), they need to buff the others. And they tried to, with Assassin, yet it still has a looooong way to go, and I don't even want to think about the other two.

[Schwann145]

And you've gotta spend 3 hours stalking the person before you can use Impostor. With that in mind, I have to ask: Just how much better is this disguise than one I could whip up with high check rolls? Because I don't need to be an Assassin for those. In fact, I can boost my skill rolls more if I'm not one.

It seems to me this would be a great example of how Rogues get devalued. I would say the ability would be (and should be) much better than an off-the-cuff skill roll. If one disagrees, that's fine, but the consequences of playing a game where a quick skill check or spell is equal to, or better than, a studied, practiced, perfected action will reverberate throughout said game.

[LudicSavant]

It seems to me this would be a great example of how Rogues get devalued. I would say the ability would be (and should be) much better than an off-the-cuff skill roll. If one disagrees, that's fine, but the consequences of playing a game where a quick skill check or spell is equal to, or better than, a studied, practiced, perfected action will reverberate throughout said game.

Making skills more limited to protect Impostor is not to the Rogue's overall benefit, however.

[Kane0]

I think they might be spread a bit too thin between the subclasses too. You could easily make a renaissance man of civil subterfuge and call it the operative or something, giving all the same boosts to infiltration, espionage and larceny. 'Spy' is a background, you're a professional

[stoutstien]

"Method act / believe your own disguise enough to fool inevitables and mindflayers" sounds like at least a Hard check to me, if not Very Hard. Which, again, is something the Soulknife will have a much easier time of since they can spike above Expertise with Psi-Bolstered Knack (and advantage from disguise kit + Deception) - when they even need to bother rolling, between being invisible and teleporting around.

In short - the power disparity between the subclasses is the problem. And if they're not going to nerf Soulknife (which they shouldn't), they need to buff the others. And they tried to, with Assassin, yet it still has a looooong way to go, and I don't even want to think about the other two.

A lot of classes have this issue. Rogue might have the highest rate of stinkers but they are far from alone.

I think one problem is in their quest to reduce stacking bonuses they allowed anything that does stack to have a massive impact.