What drives a poor reputation for the Rogue class?

[Keltest]

Maybe I'm just getting the wrong end of the stick, but I'm getting increasingly perplexed as to what this ability is supposed to represent.

It apparently doesn't require any sort of disguise. Nor does it require the ability to act, talk, or behave any differently to how you normally would.

I present - the flawless and varied personas of an expert assassin:

Spoiler

Show

Sure. Just spread them across three different towns and you're fine. You're creating an idea of yourself in peoples heads. It doesn't necessarily need to be completely different, just different in specific ways you have decided are important. Presumably, whether or not you are an assassin is one of those ways most of the time but hey, maybe this week you feel like being a student in the Ankh-Morpork Assassin's Guild.

[Theodoxus]

That's correct - so long as there is not an actual "Frederick the Nobleman" that the King's seneschal remembers is actually off visiting the nation of Somewhere and therefore couldn't be the guy who's currently trying to get into the King's audience chamber with a dagger up his sleeve, and calls the guards. This is a possible screwup the Assassin PC can make due to not having the entire world's NPC roster at their fingertips like the DM does, that represents a potential failstate of the ability.



Indeed, and there's also the very broad "obvious reason" clause. "Hey, this guy says he's a noble from Eaglestan, but Eaglestan just abolished their nobility and converted to a representative democracy!" "Hey, this guy says he's the crown prince of Anywhereville, but the King of Anywhereville only has daughters!" "Hey, this guy say he's a duke from Remotetopia, but that's on the other side of the globe and teleportation is down, how'd he get here?!"

None of these are insurmountable, but they're enough to pierce the "automatic belief" everything-proof shield and get some rolls going, rolls which the Assassin has no other subclass features to help with.

I'm pretty sure that's the point of taking 7 days - your assassin is going to know all about Eaglestan becoming a republic, and now he's no longer a noble, but Representative Higgentoot. For Anywhereville, the assassin would instead style himself as Prince Consort to Princess #2. For Remotetopia, he has a cover story about the trip taking months. As you note, they're not only not insurmountable, but I give the ability a lot more grace than you and others. And again, the only thing I can point to is the fact that it isn't magical seems to stymie you.

Fine and dandy but - explain why I need to be an Assassin for this again? The whole point of the plan is the murder, which needs me to be Fred, and which the Assassin doesn't help me with at all beyond disguise kit proficiency (since Fred is real) - something any rogue under the sun can get, and several do even better with.

An unimpeachable disguise with IE boosted by perfect mimicry in Imposter to create two persona that leaves you scot free. To replicate that, you'd need at least a feat (Actor) or a race that's a LOT harder to hide - Kenku. Assassin at least leaves your feat choices (or a featless game) free.

[Psyren]

I was commenting on the synergy between Imposter and Infiltration Expertise. Assassins are the best at imitating real people, which gives you three identities to use when doing something like this: your short term disguise, your long term alias, and your real identity.

Assassins explicitly can't imitate real people (other than the way any rogue can); what they do is imitate fake people they've invented. So if being a real person is the best way to infiltrate, Assassin does nothing.

Also, thats a terrible question. Why do you need any class or subclass?

It's a perfectly reasonable question, we're talking about subclass design. If I'm relying on a disguise roll to impersonate Real Person Fred to get close to the king, and Assassin can't help me with that, then what purpose does it serve? Why shouldn't I be an Arcane Trickster or Soulknife instead? Those two can actually help me impersonate Fred above and beyond what a subclassless Rogue can do. Even Thief would help me more, depending on the magic items available in the campaign.

[JNAProductions]

You're doing that thing, again, where you're just stating that you'll win.
Why?

I was chatting with a buddy about a game he's in right now and one of the group antagonists has a Passive Perception of 31.
How does your non-Assassin infiltrator do against that?

Perception isn't used to combat disguises and the like-it'd be Insight and/or Investigation.

[Psyren]

You're doing that thing, again, where you're just stating that you'll win.
Why?

I was chatting with a buddy about a game he's in right now and one of the group antagonists has a Passive Perception of 31.
How does your non-Assassin infiltrator do against that?

I'm not saying it's 100% guaranteed, but in most games it might as well be. DC 31 at level 9 isn't common.

As for what I'd do instead, that depends on what I am instead of an Assassin. Psi-Boosted Knack will let me beat a 31. Alter Self/Gaseous Form will let me reset and try again, or maybe not even need to infiltrate that way in the first place. Awe will let me walk past his guards, stab him, and walk out again. You know, actual subclass features with non-niche uses.

[Dr.Samurai]

Wow, this took off this morning. Don't think I'll be able to keep up today but here's a reply for now.

Yeah, this demonstrates that an ability that takes SEVEN DAYS!, to resolve is just not a good fit for some types of games.

Correct. Game style will definitely influence whether you can use this feature or not.

Even worse, is you cannot impersonate a real person, with Infiltration Expertise.

Correct, but you can impersonate a real person in the same ways anyone else can. And then Impostor lets you do it better than everyone else because, again, it says the person needs to be wary to even get a check.

Artificer's have Tool Expertise starting at 6th level. The Forgery and Disguise Kits have been in the game since 5e's publication.

The assassin was in the original PHB. Until the artificer came out 5 years later and half way through 5E's existence, there was no way to get Expertise in Forgery and Disguise.

Forging Documents and Pretending to be someone else, seems like a natural set of actions for a player to ask to do with those particular Tool Kits.

Infiltration Expertise is more than getting into a bar with a fake ID. No one is saying that other classes can't do anything.

This goes back to a point that Psyren made earlier. Infiltration Expertise, as written, does a poor job of effectively delineating a suite of subclass only powers.

This is a matter of interpretation. If you devalue what the feature is doing, then yes, you can say it does not provide any subclass only power.

If your response is to make other PCs attempts to use Disguises and Impersonations, nearly impossible to succeed in order to preserve that niche solely for Infiltration Expertise, you have basically beggared the game for a poorly conceived ability.

Ok, your player says to you "I'm in Waterdeep. I want to pose as a member of a merchant guild from Calimshan, in such a way that my identity has an established history and affiliations, and complete with letters of introduction and certifications, so that no one even questions whether or not I am who I say I am and I can just slot myself into the company of other wealthy merchants in Waterdeep. How do I do this?"

Do you mind sharing how you would handle this if you were the DM? I've shared my logical reasoning on what I think it would take, but I've been accused of purposely stacking the deck in order to protect a subclass, because we all argue in good faith here lol.

A Bard, could be a Thespian. If Actors can not act, out of deference to Infiltration Expertise, then in my judgement, one has probably taken niche protection to the extreme.

I will echo what Keltest said. Infiltration Expertise is not just acting.

I'm naming random junk that's available at level 1-3. This is a level 9 feature.

Yes, that combines all of those things together, in your estimation, and can't fail unless you do something really stupid (like claim to be a dragon at a dragon council and then ask everyone to speak in common).

This is extraordinarily specific and non-frequent, and exactly why I called it out as a bad class feature before. Class features should come up frequently. This is the opposite of that.

This can come up as often as the game, DM, and player want/allow and I gave examples of this already. Some games have factions in them, and the factions actually matter to the plot, and if you can insinuate yourself into these factions, that could make a difference and come up all the time.

If you were the DM, how much time would you dedicate to making this one particular feature feel interesting and usable?

It depends on the campaign, but at this point you're just saying that you as a DM are not interested in a player subclass feature, so you won't play into it. That's fine, everyone has preferences.

What wouldn't you allow the players to do if they didn't have this particular feature?

The feature gives you letters of introduction, certifications, and a full blown identity that lets you insinuate yourself into groups, without question.

Figure out how you're going to do that with your skills and tool proficiencies, but certainly it will be more than casting Disguise Self and rolling well on Deception. I've never said others can't do it, I've contended that there's quite a bit baked into this feature. Instead of taking me at face value, people are assuming I'm trying to fluff the ability up to protect a subclass for some reason.

You need to make letters of introduction and certifications, so that's forgery. That's a contested check, and it sounds like multiple ones. If you want to keep the identity visually distinct from yourself (maybe a good idea if you're working in the same place over time) then you'll need a disguise. Another contested check. Neither of these benefit from Expertise, as we've been over already. Then there's the matter of establishing a history for the character; I'm not sure what that looks like in a setting that lacks records/databases, but there's that. I'd imagine it would be something like word of mouth, where people have heard about this character, enough to help substantiate the identity. This would be something similar to Sowing a Rumor in the DMG.

In regards to advantage on checks to replicate IE with other Rogue archetypes, it reminds me of a time where a Rogue with a Cloak of the Elvenkind was trying to stealth up the stairs of a ziggurat to bypass a line of archers. Rolled two nat 1s and got peppered. It happens, and it doesn't even need to be nat 1s. Any two low rolls can happen and now you're either killed, or captured, or fighting a group you didn't want to (for whatever reason, otherwise why go the infiltration route?)

Yeah, my barbarian used Reckless Attack against a wolf just now in our game and still missed. Advantage is no guarantee lol.

The funny thing to me, is all the various ways to play 'Spy' is grappling with the a playstyle 5E isn't built for. It runs smack dab into the Exploration and Social pillars with zero support for PCs that aren't built for it, very little support in the way of how to actually run intrigue at the DM level (especially when your players are playing classes that go against type). This is Dungeons and Dragons, not Bond (James) and Powers (Austin). As such, I'll throw my hat in the ring for those desiring a complete rebuild of the classes that actually fit the theme of game, rather than trying to shoehorn the other classes into a style the game doesn't support well.

I agree that the subclass needs a redesign, but I think Infiltration Expertise is worthy of keeping and simply fine-tuning, rather than throwing out.

With regards to 5E playstyle, there are a number of out of combat downtime features throughout the classes that suggest the game intends for downtime activity. But, as my own experiences bear out, downtime is hardly a guarantee in games. But as an example, a wizard is far stronger if they can scribe scrolls in between adventures, since it will guarantee they can have all of their utility spells at the ready if/when they come up, and it lets their spell slots go farther. So it's a different power level when you can't scribe scrolls.

That said, the difference is that IE takes up a level 9 subclass feature. So should be used often.

Aside, there's also the strange anti-synergy between Infiltration Expertise and Imposter.

Imposter lets you mimic the speech, writing etc. of specific individuals. Okay, great. Now you just ned to use Infiltration Expertise to disguise yourself as that person and... oh, wait, you're explicitly forbidden from actually impersonating someone with it.

I mean, I guess you can just use them independently. It just seems very strange to make them completely incompatible with one another.

I think Impostor is supposed to work like Infiltration Expertise, but specifically for impersonating a real person. I think it's not worth two separate features for this though.

Setting aside the philosophical debate of Acting/Identity/Authenticity....an alternate identity's effectiveness only depends upon how long the PC can keep up the ruse. "Captain Mandrake of the Kings Royal Musketeers" is still going to be expected to give passcodes and know the org chart, and have basic cultural knowledge of the people they are infiltrating...and the ability does not automatically grant you that knowledge.

The ability is like the old Castle Wolfenstein computer game, you get to wear a uniform. You have papers, you seem to be whom you say you are....until you do something that makes people suspicious.

Depending upon the circumstances, that can be a short trip indeed.
"I am the Great Wyrm Palcidisax, in the shape of this mortal halfling, I claim my seat on the Draconic Council, but request that all proceedings take place in common, because I am sick of Draconic".....the jig is probably already up.

This is setting yourself up for failure though.

[strangebloke]

I just think these use cases are getting increasingly more convoluted.

As I see it, this ability kind of helps you do something you'd almost never want to do in a real game, that you can probably do anyway without a special ability. Like if a soulknife tells a DM "I want to spend a week making a fake persona and developing a cover story" would you say they couldn't do that?

This is a ninth level feature! It should let you do something cool and unique with clear upside! We shouldn't be having this debate!

there's a term for "abilities with some powerful niche applications" and we call them "ribbons."

[Keltest]

Assassins explicitly can't imitate real people (other than the way any rogue can); what they do is imitate fake people they've invented. So if being a real person is the best way to infiltrate, Assassin does nothing.



It's a perfectly reasonable question, we're talking about subclass design. If I'm relying on a disguise roll to impersonate Real Person Fred to get close to the king, and Assassin can't help me with that, then what purpose does it serve? Why shouldn't I be an Arcane Trickster or Soulknife instead? Those two can actually help me impersonate Fred above and beyond what a subclassless Rogue can do. Even Thief would help me more, depending on the magic items available in the campaign.

Assassin can help with that? You can perfectly imitate Real Person Fred's voice and mannerisms. The disguise roll is just to look like him.


Assassin's have two different abilities to be not themselves: one to make a fake identity, one to imitate a real person. You seem confused on this point.

[Darth Credence]

FTR, I have never played with anyone playing the Assassin subclass. Rogues in general have been scarce at my tables - I think we had someone play one once, but it's been a while. Maybe this is because the players I know think rogues are bad, or maybe not, I don't know. But at least part of it, I think, is based on the types of campaigns we run. A go out and fight monsters in the wilderness is not the ideal campaign for a rogue, IMO. Maybe a scout, but otherwise, it just isn't the right design. I have always felt like the class exists because of Bilbo, and even Bilbo was pretty much out of place in that adventure - he was needed for very specific tasks, but he wasn't going to fight along with the dwarves.

That said, the type of campaign where an Assassin rogue would be incredibly valuable is obvious to me - Leverage. You probably know what I'm talking about if you've seen it. A campaign could be made with four rogues and a monk - Nate as a Mastermind, Parker as a Thief, Hardison as an Arcane Trickster, Eliot as Open Hand monk, and Sophie as an Assassin. The show is about the group conning bad guys out of their money to help out good guys. If a campaign were made that had that general idea of criminals working to help the little guys, an Assassin would be critical to the group because of that 9th level ability.

An episode of the show could make for an arc of the campaign. They hear about someone bad that needs to be taken down. Let's say it's a wealthy baron taking some freeholders' lands. They hear about this, and want to come up with a way to save their lands, while taking down the baron. First, they do some investigation to see what is up. Everyone has a role here to learn what they can, then get together and make a plan. Once a plan is made, it's time for a week or two of prep - the mastermind gets places where they can observe the people they may face, gathering info on their stats and levels; the assassin makes a few identities, including letters patent and other things to support who they are, all flawless; the thief cases the various sites; the arcane trickster does what they can to set up future contingencies; the monk is doing protection work. This is downtime and happens in a moment, with the DM telling them what they have found, maybe giving some opportunity for rolls to see if anything goes wrong. Then, the mission really begins. The assassin would be the lead grifter, with a bulletproof identity that no one has any reason to suspect. Say the assassin has given themselves an identity as the king's investigator, complete with appropriate introductions from the king that will stand up to any scrutiny short of actually talking to the king (but they would have no reason to unless given a reason - they'd accept the assassin is who they claim). As that investigator, they can bring in their entourage of people to do their investigating - the monk is their bodyguard, the mastermind is their personal aide, and the thief is a subordinate investigator. Maybe the AT is an investigator, maybe they are support outside, communicating over a telepathic link. But the one ability carries all of them they need inside, inside. From there, they carry out whatever plan they came up with. It may be that they are all doing independent stuff a lot, but that isn't as big of a deal IMO.

Let's say AT is in the control center, telepathically coordinating. They have a crystal ball that they use to scry on various things, so they can talk to everyone over the link (and that gives you a 1-hour limit before communications go down) and give them information about what is around them. They are involved in everything, although their character is not actually there. The Assassin will be the face - they will be talking to people at whatever they are at - a party, a private meeting with the Baron, a council meeting, whatever. They will be keeping the Baron distracted, fishing for information, giving them bad information, whatever. The mastermind can be watching everyone in the room, learning what they can and feeding that to everyone through the link. Maybe give them a medallion of thoughts so they can get even more. The thief can be doing their "investigation", with the bodyguard along for protection. All of this can be done simultaneously - the AT is chiming in on any point, and you just go around to the other three groups to get what they are doing every couple of minutes.

I can see a very entertaining campaign doing that, although it would be a very low combat campaign if I ran it. Maybe pretty much only the monk gets in fights, ever, while everyone else works on sneaking or talking their way through things. Not a normal D&D campaign, to be sure, but it would work just fine and those rogue roles would all shine.

Now, I do think that the Assassin is not the right choice for that ability. The phantom is a better "assassin", from what I can see. Give them the assassin attack and everything else they normally have and make that the Assassin subclass. Alternately, keep Phantom as is and rewrite Assassin, making them into a poisoner or something. Replace the current Assassin with the Grifter. Drop infiltration expertise and the imposter to lower levels, give them some additional ways to fit like maybe at will disguise self at higher levels, maybe advantage on social interactions while paying a role, things like that. But Assassin is the current spot for the grifter abilities, so it is what it is.

[Keltest]

I just think these use cases are getting increasingly more convoluted.

As I see it, this ability kind of helps you do something you'd almost never want to do in a real game, that you can probably do anyway without a special ability. Like if a soulknife tells a DM "I want to spend a week making a fake persona and developing a cover story" would you say they couldn't do that?

Probably, yeah. A week isn't a lot of time for that sort of thing, especially making an identity up whole cloth. By comparison, spending a workweek of downtime to build some contacts gets you maybe one or two people. Three if youre really good at it. And actually creating an unquestionable identity is absolutely more complex than just making a couple friends at the bar.

[Psyren]

As I see it, this ability kind of helps you do something you'd almost never want to do in a real game, that you can probably do anyway without a special ability. Like if a soulknife tells a DM "I want to spend a week making a fake persona and developing a cover story" would you say they couldn't do that?

Sure they can! But you see, they might have to roll a die or two at some point, so clearly the one that can do this horribly niche activity without rolling* is justified in that being the entirety of their 9th-level subclass features.

Some restrictions apply. Jot down every NPC in the world so you don't pick an existing person as your cover story, and don't do literally anything that might make your cover obvious. Anything like what you ask? Good luck!

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Maybe I'm just getting the wrong end of the stick, but I'm getting increasingly perplexed as to what this ability is supposed to represent.

It apparently doesn't require any sort of disguise. Nor does it require the ability to act, talk, or behave any differently to how you normally would.

I present - the flawless and varied personas of an expert assassin:

Spoiler

Show

I'm thinking of it as Gene Parmesan.

[Dr.Samurai]

You're doing that thing, again, where you're just stating that you'll win.
Why?

These arguments are riddled with contrary claims and double standards.

Note, the assassin's unquestionable identity will fail because the assassin is a bumbling idiot that doesn't know they're making the identity of someone that exists or doesn't know the particulars of the story they are putting together, despite the investment of time and money.

And on the flip side, non-assassins auto-succeed because the DM will definitely allow for Expertise in Deception to be an infinite Get Out of Jail Free card for every interaction you have.

The feature is flipped on its head. Anyone else auto-succeeds, but if an Assassin uses this auto-succeed feature, chances are you fail. Brilliant.

I was chatting with a buddy about a game he's in right now and one of the group antagonists has a Passive Perception of 31.
How does your non-Assassin infiltrator do against that?

They use Deception to fabricate an explanation, and the DM allows it because the DM treats Deception as you can lie your way out of any situation. It begs the question why even bother with a disguise in the first place. Or why even bother with anything if you can just lie your way through anything because you have Expertise.

Probably, yeah. A week isn't a lot of time for that sort of thing, especially making an identity up whole cloth. By comparison, spending a workweek of downtime to build some contacts gets you maybe one or two people. Three if youre really good at it. And actually creating an unquestionable identity is absolutely more complex than just making a couple friends at the bar.

Yeah, I don't know where the assumption comes from that this would be such an easy thing to do, except that some people just don't have time for downtime and judge everything accordingly. And they think they should have their cake and eat it too, so if it's something that can be done, it should be done quickly and conveniently.

I'm thinking of it as Gene Parmesan.

LOL, I love that bit!

@Darth Credence: I generally agree that the disguise features seem a little out of place for the assassin. I know with Hitman this ability is a staple, but a grifter/con does make more sense for that sort of thing.

[Psyren]

These arguments are riddled with contrary claims and double standards.

You mean like the last "contrary claim" where you forgot Forger's Kit is on the Tool list?

Note, the assassin's unquestionable identity will fail because the assassin is a bumbling idiot that doesn't know they're making the identity of someone that exists or doesn't know the particulars of the story they are putting together, despite the investment of time and money.

The designers wouldn't have written that clause into the ability if they didn't intend it to be a potential failstate for the Assassin. They would have left it at "unfailing" without any caveats, if they truly intended it to be unable to fail. They didn't; take it up with Mearls, not me.

[Dr.Samurai]

You mean like the last "contrary claim" where you forgot Forger's Kit is on the Tool list?

No, that's just an accidental omission because you were making claims about disguises and I forgot to cover Forgeries. That's an easy thing to correct because you're still skipping a step, so there's really nowhere for us to go from here. The forgery can help your deception, but nothing is helping your actual forgery. Like... your forgery has to pass scrutiny. NOTHING in Xanathar's is helping with that. You're just assuming it works and jumping to step 2.

You are performing a tremendous amount of hand-waiving to assert that you can create these unfailing personas just to devalue Infiltration Expertise. But it's clear that you're saying you'll succeed because you're saying you'll succeed. You're just assuming your success.

"Don't worry, the disguise and forged documents aren't really that important to creating a living unquestionable false identity. It's just the deception check!" Sure, have fun playing easy mode lol.

The designers wouldn't have written that clause into the ability if they didn't intend it to be a potential failstate for the Assassin. They would have left it at "unfailing" without any caveats, if they truly intended it to be unable to fail. They didn't; take it up with Mearls, not me.

Me: Hi Mearls, let's talk Assassin.
Mearls: Sure.
Me: So, in Infiltration Expertise, when it says you can't establish a false identity of someone that already exists, does that mean that you can and you might?
Mearls: No, it means you can't.
Me: Right but this guy on the internet keeps saying that you can, and if you do, you'll automatically fail. So what do you think about that?
Mearls: But the feature literally tells you that you can't do that.
Me: Yeah but there's this guy on the internet you see that is really insisting that this is how the feature will work, that even though it says you can't do this thing, it actually means you can and will.
Mearls: Take it up with him.
Me: Oh, he told me to take it up with you...

[Theodoxus]

I mean, 'unfailingly' and 'caveats' are a paradox. It's like asking an omnipotent being to do something that demonstrates its lack of omnipotence. So, with any paradox, you have to pick a side. I choose unfailingly, so that the ability works. Others pick caveats, so the ability is the stink and then they talk about how grossly underwhelming it is... gee, I wonder why...

[Psyren]

I mean, 'unfailingly' and 'caveats' are a paradox. It's like asking an omnipotent being to do something that demonstrates its lack of omnipotence. So, with any paradox, you have to pick a side. I choose unfailingly, so that the ability works. Others pick caveats, so the ability is the stink and then they talk about how grossly underwhelming it is... gee, I wonder why...

So you chose the side that houserules out the excpetion clauses the designers wrote into the ability. If that works for your table that's completely fine.

Me: Hi Mearls, let's talk Assassin.
Mearls: Sure.
Me: So, in Infiltration Expertise, when it says you can't establish a false identity of someone that already exists, does that mean that you can and you might?
Mearls: No, it means you can't.
Me: Right but this guy on the internet keeps saying that you can, and if you do, you'll automatically fail. So what do you think about that?
Mearls: But the feature literally tells you that you can't do that.
Me: Yeah but there's this guy on the internet you see that is really insisting that this is how the feature will work, that even though it says you can't do this thing, it actually means you can and will.
Mearls: Take it up with him.
Me: Oh, he told me to take it up with you...

So your reading of "can't" is that they physically can't? Like your Assassin decides to invent the persona of Wulbren Bongle, and the moment they write the final letter of that name on their party invitation, Garl Glittergold shows up on their doorstep and is like "hey I know you were super excited about this fake ID you spent a week on but that guy actually sort of exists, mind picking a different name?"

[Keltest]

So your reading of "can't" is that they physically can't? Like your Assassin decides to invent the persona of Wulbren Bongle, and the moment they write the final letter of that name on their party invitation, Garl Glittergold shows up on their doorstep and is like "hey I know you were super excited about this fake ID you spent a week on but that guy actually sort of exists, mind picking a different name?"

Are you trying to imply that somebody would accidentally make the life story of an existing person, completely randomly?

[Theodoxus]

So you chose the side that houserules out the excpetion clauses the designers wrote into the ability. If that works for your table that's completely fine.

Yeah, mostly because I think the clause is pretty lame. I mean, outside of your humorous example below, it's exceedingly gamist. You mean to tell me, as popular as Elminster is, no one has thought to name their son Elminster? Or their daughter Tasha? There is exactly 1 Kelben, 1 Melf, 1 Bigby. Now, if you're using IE to pass as Elminster, the wizard of the Dales - sure, that's not going to work unless you're an Assassin 9/Illusionist 11 and dealing with country bumpkins in the wilds of Anauroch or something. But how many people know who Wulbren Bongle is in Silverymoon or Phandelver? Creating the persona of the King of Waterdeep when you're out in The Vast - you're probably going to be ok - if ballsy.

So your reading of "can't" is that they physically can't? Like your Assassin decides to invent the persona of Wulbren Bongle, and the moment they write the final letter of that name on their party invitation, Garl Glittergold shows up on their doorstep and is like "hey I know you were super excited about this fake ID you spent a week on but that guy actually sort of exists, mind picking a different name?"

[LudicSavant]

Infiltration Expertise may have you unfailingly create the identity for yourself, but it only makes someone believe you are that person until they are given sufficient reason to disbelieve the ruse, as specifically noted in the ability description.

It also has various practical factors that limit its use cases. It takes a full week of casting time, and it only helps you create false credentials for yourself for some reason (not the high level heroes of renown you're traveling with). And it doesn't particularly help you with things like knowing the local language or countering divinations or gaining skills relevant to assuming more exotic identities (see for instance the experience a poster above had with trying to infiltrate in a Descent to Avernus style campaign). You would have to make such investments separately if you want them. And the ability to create false identities is not exclusive to the feature.

Does this mean the ability is 'useless'? No, of course not. It has use, just like almost all features do. But it would take an enormous feature to pull the Assassin out of the lower end of the scale, and this just isn't an enormous feature.

[Keltest]

Yeah, mostly because I think the clause is pretty lame. I mean, outside of your humorous example below, it's exceedingly gamist. You mean to tell me, as popular as Elminster is, no one has thought to name their son Elminster? Or their daughter Tasha? There is exactly 1 Kelben, 1 Melf, 1 Bigby. Now, if you're using IE to pass as Elminster, the wizard of the Dales - sure, that's not going to work unless you're an Assassin 9/Illusionist 11 and dealing with country bumpkins in the wilds of Anauroch or something. But how many people know who Wulbren Bongle is in Silverymoon or Phandelver? Creating the persona of the King of Waterdeep when you're out in The Vast - you're probably going to be ok - if ballsy.

Im not sure why you wouldnt be able to have the same name as someone for your identity if you aren't specifically imitating them? It doesn't stop you from doing that.

Unrelated, there are actually two Khelbens. The wizard was the older one, assuming the identity of the younger one, his.... great grandson? as part of subterfuge.

[strangebloke]

Probably, yeah. A week isn't a lot of time for that sort of thing, especially making an identity up whole cloth. By comparison, spending a workweek of downtime to build some contacts gets you maybe one or two people. Three if youre really good at it. And actually creating an unquestionable identity is absolutely more complex than just making a couple friends at the bar.

Now you're making it do something that it doesn't do at all.

The feature is very clear about what it does:

establish the history, profession, and affiliations for an identity... you might acquire appropriate clothing, letters of introduction, and official- looking certification to establish yourself as a member of a trading house from a remote city so you can insinuate yourself into the company of other wealthy merchants.

It does not give you contacts. It does not by itself give you bonds with the people you're trying to infiltrate. This ability establishes the false ID's history, but it doesn't change the past. It establishes affiliations for the false identity but it doesn't create a network of operatives pretending to be these affiliates. If John Doe has a wife on paper, this ability does not create a wife for you.

compare the language to the charlatan background feature, which is similar but is less strong:

You have created a second identity that includes documentation, established acquaintances, and disguises that allow you to assume that persona. Additionally, you can forge documents including official papers and personal letters, as long as you have seen an example of the kind of document or the handwriting you are trying to copy.

The only difference between these features is that expertise lets you do this 'unfailingly.' You essentially get to auto-pass on all forgery checks and disguise checks related to your alternate persona. Maybe you can also argue that it lets you auto-succeed on deception checks related to pretending to be your persona.

That's useful if your persona is well-chosen. You can pretend to be a member of a powerful rival faction, for example. But your alternate personality, credentials aside, is just some guy. You can show up pretending to be duke of some land that doesn't exist, sure, but how much trust is going to be extended to such a person? If you REALLY spend a lot of time investing in your alternate identity they could BECOME trusted by the BBEG and do useful things for the party, but....

That's a major time investment on the part of the party as a whole. How often do they want to watch you sleuthing around and infiltrating?

[Kane0]

I present - the flawless and varied personas of an expert assassin:

Spoiler

Show

Aw c'mon man, Wang and Sapphire Fyre did it way better.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Are you trying to imply that somebody would accidentally make the life story of an existing person, completely randomly?

Not only that, but the third person they meet in the course of their infiltration is that specific person.

I mean, I think it's just kind of badly-written. The rogue can create false identities that are very convincing because they fit into the world. They can pass as A Stormtrooper, but not necessarily as TK-421. Passing as A Particular Stormtrooper means waiting another four class levels for a different feature that should probably happen at, like, level 6 anyway.

That's useful if your persona is well-chosen. You can pretend to be a member of a powerful rival faction, for example. But your alternate personality, credentials aside, is just some guy. You can show up pretending to be duke of some land that doesn't exist, sure, but how much trust is going to be extended to such a person? If you REALLY spend a lot of time investing in your alternate identity they could BECOME trusted by the BBEG and do useful things for the party, but....

It's definitely tailored towards a very particular kind of campaign. I don't think it's a bad thing, though, putting the onus on the player and the character to choose their persona well. Personally, I'd hope that the DM would help out here, making the players have enough knowledge to make good decisions. You gotta get into a vault, the vault is owned by a high-ranking Zhent, that guy knows all the other Zhents of equally high rank or higher so bluffing that you're a Zhentish capo or whatever probably won't work, maybe you're an agent in Bregan Daerthe sent to turn him by means of an enormous(ly fake) bribe. Or maybe you're a disgruntled Harper and you want to sell him a key to a treasure room. Or whatever! The point is that using this feature should be a key to a lock rather than an invitation for the DM to find reasons that it doesn't work, in my view.

[Schwann145]

The designers wouldn't have written that clause into the ability if they didn't intend it to be a potential failstate for the Assassin. They would have left it at "unfailing" without any caveats, if they truly intended it to be unable to fail. They didn't; take it up with Mearls, not me.

What ridiculous standard have you set in your mind for how an ability like this should/would be written?
Of course there's a clause that lets the ability fail - it'd be really stupid to leave that out. Then you'd have Assassins running around who couldn't convince their marks that they've been lying the whole time, even if they wanted to; their disguise was so good even the truth won't break it!

Thereafter, if you adopt the new identity as a disguise, other creatures believe you to be that person until given an obvious reason not to.

The ability says, "until given an obvious reason." It doesn't say, "until given just any old reason." If your DM is making Infiltration Expertise fail for small, easily avoided, stupid reasons, then they're actively antagonizing their player and that'd be a table worth walking away from.

[strangebloke]

It's definitely tailored towards a very particular kind of campaign. I don't think it's a bad thing, though, putting the onus on the player and the character to choose their persona well. Personally, I'd hope that the DM would help out here, making the players have enough knowledge to make good decisions. You gotta get into a vault, the vault is owned by a high-ranking Zhent, that guy knows all the other Zhents of equally high rank or higher so bluffing that you're a Zhentish capo or whatever probably won't work, maybe you're an agent in Bregan Daerthe sent to turn him by means of an enormous(ly fake) bribe. Or maybe you're a disgruntled Harper and you want to sell him a key to a treasure room. Or whatever! The point is that using this feature should be a key to a lock rather than an invitation for the DM to find reasons that it doesn't work, in my view.

I mean this is all true, but this is why the week-long setup is so punishing.

A normal rogue can bluff the Zhent into thinking they're one of those people on the fly. They can't do so unfailingly but they can do it, and reliable talent plus some magic really gets you pretty close to 'unfailing' on most checks of this kind, even at level 11.

So its obviously good to be able to do such things unfailingly. Obviously. And as a DM I'd not have their identity get pierced unless there's some clear contradiction. But having the right identity picked for the mission a full week in advance, is like. Pretty tough to pull off and functionally will not do anything a lot of the time since you'd have succeeded anyway. And if you're really trying to get a big benefit out of your cover identity, you will need to separate yourself from you very famous companions, which brings us back to antisocial behavior.

[LudicSavant]

Speaking of the Zhents, Manshoon himself is only CR13 in WDH.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

I mean this is all true, but this is why the week-long setup is so punishing.

A normal rogue can bluff the Zhent into thinking they're one of those people on the fly. They can't do so unfailingly but they can do it, and reliable talent plus some magic really gets you pretty close to 'unfailing' on most checks of this kind, even at level 11.

So its obviously good to be able to do such things unfailingly. Obviously. And as a DM I'd not have their identity get pierced unless there's some clear contradiction. But having the right identity picked for the mission a full week in advance, is like. Pretty tough to pull off and functionally will not do anything a lot of the time since you'd have succeeded anyway. And if you're really trying to get a big benefit out of your cover identity, you will need to separate yourself from you very famous companions, which brings us back to antisocial behavior.

Believe me, I'm not arguing that it's good or useful in most campaigns. And honestly it runs into some issues surrounding communication; fantasy games require magic and spent resources to be able to do things that are replicable with radios and binoculars in modern or sci-fi games. Heist structures are a little rough at fantasy tables because they've got to solve for the split-second timing and communication problems while also doing them at a level where one cleric, one druid and two wizards isn't the optimal stealing composition.

I think this should probably be something that comes online at level 3, along with the level 11 mimicry feature. Like, the published adventure where I want this feature -- the only published adventure where I want this feature, I think -- is Dragon Heist, and that ends at 5.

[Psyren]

What ridiculous standard have you set in your mind for how an ability like this should/would be written?
Of course there's a clause that lets the ability fail - it'd be really stupid to leave that out. Then you'd have Assassins running around who couldn't convince their marks that they've been lying the whole time, even if they wanted to; their disguise was so good even the truth won't break it!

Hey, I'm not the one going "unfailing means unfailing! How dare you imply my persona has any potential flaws ever??"

The ability says, "until given an obvious reason." It doesn't say, "until given just any old reason." If your DM is making Infiltration Expertise fail for small, easily avoided, stupid reasons, then they're actively antagonizing their player and that'd be a table worth walking away from.

I agree, but there's a line there somewhere is my point.

[Dr.Samurai]

I mean, 'unfailingly' and 'caveats' are a paradox. It's like asking an omnipotent being to do something that demonstrates its lack of omnipotence. So, with any paradox, you have to pick a side. I choose unfailingly, so that the ability works. Others pick caveats, so the ability is the stink and then they talk about how grossly underwhelming it is... gee, I wonder why...

I think it means what it says it does; people accept that you are the person you're claiming to be, unless there is some obvious reason to suspect something.

Psyren is choosing to put forth that these obvious reasons will be trivial, and therefore the feature doesn't do anything above and beyond normal checks.

So you chose the side that houserules out the excpetion clauses the designers wrote into the ability. If that works for your table that's completely fine.

The exception is not meant to be common, which is how you are treating it. You are basically saying that because there is an exception (which obviously there would have to be one for the sake of the game) then the ability isn't an auto-success the majority of the time.

This is a common framing for online commentary on a lot of mechanics. Because there is some sort of fail-state, the feature is no good. The only proper test of a feature is if you can guarantee that the enemy will fail a contested check. Give us a DC, we'll crank our modifier as high as possible, and then say anything else sucks.

So your reading of "can't" is that they physically can't? Like your Assassin decides to invent the persona of Wulbren Bongle, and the moment they write the final letter of that name on their party invitation, Garl Glittergold shows up on their doorstep and is like "hey I know you were super excited about this fake ID you spent a week on but that guy actually sort of exists, mind picking a different name?"

I love the mocking tone, meanwhile your big argument is "You spontaneously created the exact persona, history, profession, and affiliations of a real life person you didn't even know existed". Oh and also "I don't have to make checks for Disguises and Forgeries, but I get to use those Disguises and Forgeries for Advantage on Deception".

So your DM goes out of their way to screw over assassins, and lets you play on easy mode.

Are you trying to imply that somebody would accidentally make the life story of an existing person, completely randomly?

He's not implying it, this is exactly what he is putting forth might happen.

What ridiculous standard have you set in your mind for how an ability like this should/would be written?
Of course there's a clause that lets the ability fail - it'd be really stupid to leave that out. Then you'd have Assassins running around who couldn't convince their marks that they've been lying the whole time, even if they wanted to; their disguise was so good even the truth won't break it!

There has to be a clause, otherwise you could literally do whatever you wanted and no matter how strange/contradictory/etc it is everyone would still believe you.

The ability says, "until given an obvious reason." It doesn't say, "until given just any old reason." If your DM is making Infiltration Expertise fail for small, easily avoided, stupid reasons, then they're actively antagonizing their player and that'd be a table worth walking away from.

Exactly.