Warmace one-handed, therefore can wield bigger one two-handed...+monkey grip?

[justiceforall]

Hi Playground,

Warmace is a one handed exotic weapon, which means you can use a large warmace as a two handed weapon with a -2 penalty, correct?

Does monkey-grip allow you to use an even bigger one because the warmace is one-handed already?

[Saintheart]

The short answer's 'No' to the second question, 'Yes by RAW' to the first.

Monkey Grip says:

You can use melee weapons one size category larger than you are with a -2 penalty on the attack roll, but the amount of effort it takes you to use the weapon does not change.

A Huge Warmace would be more than one size category larger than Medium. This feat would not apply.


EDIT: Reason it's yes by RAW to the first is because most EWP weapons like the Warmace/bastard sword/maul don't explicitly say that the weapon's considered a two-handed weapon when wielded in two hands as a martial weapon. They're not the same thing - the category of martial vs. exotic weapon is unfortunately more or less transparent to the issue of size.

[Anthrowhale]

...

I agree.

I generally find Greater Mighty Wallop to be a more elegant solution to weapon size.

[justiceforall]

The short answer's 'No' to the second question, 'Yes by RAW' to the first.

Monkey Grip says:



A Huge Warmace would be more than one size category larger than Medium. This feat would not apply.


EDIT: Reason it's yes by RAW to the first is because most EWP weapons like the Warmace/bastard sword/maul don't explicitly say that the weapon's considered a two-handed weapon when wielded in two hands as a martial weapon. They're not the same thing - the category of martial vs. exotic weapon is unfortunately more or less transparent to the issue of size.

Thanks, it's what I thought but I was hoping there was some weird edge RAW case :).

[Saintheart]

Monkey Grip to my mind does have one edge case use: where you want to be the Medium guy wielding a Large Greataxe, paying -4 on every attack roll in return for the kinda-low probability of getting between 13 and 18 on your damage dice instead of maximum 12.

For most weapons M.Grip does absolutely nothing since a Medium guy wielding a Large one-handed weapon is deemed as wielding a two-handed weapon in terms of effort required, i.e. whether it's one-handed or two-handed doesn't matter, you can still swing it at a -2. A greataxe is a two-handed weapon, but a Large greataxe in the hands of a Medium character becomes something other than a two-handed weapon, meaning the Medium character can't actually wield it at all -- unless he has Monkey Grip, in which case that Large greataxe is still deemed a two-handed weapon for a Medium character. But the -2 from wielding a larger weapon and Monkey Grip's -2 apply, I would say cumulatively. Thus a -4 on the attack roll.

But as said, the difference comes down to the potential of rolling 6 more damage than you could roll on your greataxe, because a Large greataxe does 3d6 damage as opposed to the Medium greataxe's 1d12. Most of the time that doesn't mean a lot and often loses out to Power Attack.

(That said, there is one interesting use for a Large greataxe in critical hit territory for Rangers - specifically, if you take Supernatural Blow from MoTW, a 3.0 feat which was unupgraded and therefore remains valid. It basically says "pick a critical-immune favored enemy, e.g. Undead. On critical hits, your weapon doesn't do a normal critical, but you do impose bonus d6s in damage equal to the number of bonus dice you'd otherwise throw on a critical hit. So if we make a kaorti resin Large greataxe, our greataxe does x4 on a critical hit. 12d6 damage on a crit. And against our critical-immune favored enemy, under Supernatural Blow, the greataxe does 3d6 base + 9d6 in bonus crit damage = 12d6 damage, i.e. normal critical damage -- because in a normal critical hit, we'd throw a total of 9 bonus dice thanks to the weapon's multiplier. Especially nice we take Murderous Intent from EoE which allows us to auto-confirm critical hits against a selected favored enemy.)

The simpler approach is Strongarm Bracers (MIC p. 139). These allow a Medium character to take a Large version of a one-handed weapon and wield it with no penalty. But if you wanted to wield a Large Greataxe, you'd still need Monkey Grip as well, since Strongarm Bracers takes away the -2, it's only Monkey Grip that allows that Large Greataxe to remain considered a two-handed weapon for a Medium character. And Monkey Grip would still sweat you for another -2.

[Darg]

Monkey Grip to my mind does have one edge case use: where you want to be the Medium guy wielding a Large Greataxe, paying -4 on every attack roll in return for the kinda-low probability of getting between 13 and 18 on your damage dice instead of maximum 12.

For most weapons M.Grip does absolutely nothing since a Medium guy wielding a Large one-handed weapon is deemed as wielding a two-handed weapon in terms of effort required, i.e. whether it's one-handed or two-handed doesn't matter, you can still swing it at a -2. A greataxe is a two-handed weapon, but a Large greataxe in the hands of a Medium character becomes something other than a two-handed weapon, meaning the Medium character can't actually wield it at all -- unless he has Monkey Grip, in which case that Large greataxe is still deemed a two-handed weapon for a Medium character. But the -2 from wielding a larger weapon and Monkey Grip's -2 apply, I would say cumulatively. Thus a -4 on the attack roll.

But as said, the difference comes down to the potential of rolling 6 more damage than you could roll on your greataxe, because a Large greataxe does 3d6 damage as opposed to the Medium greataxe's 1d12. Most of the time that doesn't mean a lot and often loses out to Power Attack.

(That said, there is one interesting use for a Large greataxe in critical hit territory for Rangers - specifically, if you take Supernatural Blow from MoTW, a 3.0 feat which was unupgraded and therefore remains valid. It basically says "pick a critical-immune favored enemy, e.g. Undead. On critical hits, your weapon doesn't do a normal critical, but you do impose bonus d6s in damage equal to the number of bonus dice you'd otherwise throw on a critical hit. So if we make a kaorti resin Large greataxe, our greataxe does x4 on a critical hit. 12d6 damage on a crit. And against our critical-immune favored enemy, under Supernatural Blow, the greataxe does 3d6 base + 9d6 in bonus crit damage = 12d6 damage, i.e. normal critical damage -- because in a normal critical hit, we'd throw a total of 9 bonus dice thanks to the weapon's multiplier. Especially nice we take Murderous Intent from EoE which allows us to auto-confirm critical hits against a selected favored enemy.)

The simpler approach is Strongarm Bracers (MIC p. 139). These allow a Medium character to take a Large version of a one-handed weapon and wield it with no penalty. But if you wanted to wield a Large Greataxe, you'd still need Monkey Grip as well, since Strongarm Bracers takes away the -2, it's only Monkey Grip that allows that Large Greataxe to remain considered a two-handed weapon for a Medium character. And Monkey Grip would still sweat you for another -2.

Monkey grip was originally designed for the 3.0 rules where weapons were crafted in only one size. So gnomes could only ever use longswords as 2handed weapons and never use greatswords without this feat for example. In the shift to 3.5 the main draw for the feat was taken away.

That said, it does start showing it's value when you stack it with size increases. Using it with Shillelagh increases the 2d6 to 3d6 for +3.5 average damage. A dwarven waraxe combined with enlarge person reaches 3d8 for +4.5 damage. It has more worth when using weapons one handed though. Power attack is just broken.

[ShurikVch]

Note: since Warmace is already an Exotic Weapon - how about to craft it as "Heavy Metal" weapon (i. e. - of Alchemical Gold or Platinum)?

[Saintheart]

Note: since Warmace is already an Exotic Weapon - how about to craft it as "Heavy Metal" weapon (i. e. - of Alchemical Gold or Platinum)?

Unfortunately, Heavy weapons (MoF p. 179) impose the Monkey Grip problem in reverse. You take -4 to your attack rolls with a Heavy weapon unless you have the right EWP feat, and you can only wield a Heavy weapon one size smaller than your own size category in two hands without taking the penalty. A Medium Warmace does 1d12 damage. A Heavy Medium Warmace does 2d8 damage. A Small Warmace does 1d10 damage, therefore a Small Heavy Warmace would do 2d6 damage. Therefore, you could wield a Small Heavy Warmace in two hands with no EWP and no attack penalty for 2d6 damage, i.e. literally no different than if you just wielded a Greatsword, or indeed a regular old Warmace in both hands as a martial weapon.

But yeah, if you're going to take EWP in a weapon anyway, you might as well make it a Heavy weapon for the extra damage dice since it's a EWP either way.

[pabelfly]

(That said, there is one interesting use for a Large greataxe in critical hit territory for Rangers - specifically, if you take Supernatural Blow from MoTW, a 3.0 feat which was unupgraded and therefore remains valid. It basically says "pick a critical-immune favored enemy, e.g. Undead. On critical hits, your weapon doesn't do a normal critical, but you do impose bonus d6s in damage equal to the number of bonus dice you'd otherwise throw on a critical hit. So if we make a kaorti resin Large greataxe, our greataxe does x4 on a critical hit. 12d6 damage on a crit. And against our critical-immune favored enemy, under Supernatural Blow, the greataxe does 3d6 base + 9d6 in bonus crit damage = 12d6 damage, i.e. normal critical damage -- because in a normal critical hit, we'd throw a total of 9 bonus dice thanks to the weapon's multiplier.

I've been wanting to do a critical hit build for a while and been wondering how I'd deal with enemies immune to critical hits, so mentioning this was really handy. Thanks.

[remetagross]

Unfortunately, Heavy weapons (MoF p. 179) impose the Monkey Grip problem in reverse. You take -4 to your attack rolls with a Heavy weapon unless you have the right EWP feat, and you can only wield a Heavy weapon one size smaller than your own size category in two hands without taking the penalty. A Medium Warmace does 1d12 damage. A Heavy Medium Warmace does 2d8 damage. A Small Warmace does 1d10 damage, therefore a Small Heavy Warmace would do 2d6 damage. Therefore, you could wield a Small Heavy Warmace in two hands with no EWP and no attack penalty for 2d6 damage, i.e. literally no different than if you just wielded a Greatsword, or indeed a regular old Warmace in both hands as a martial weapon.

But yeah, if you're going to take EWP in a weapon anyway, you might as well make it a Heavy weapon for the extra damage dice since it's a EWP either way.

...so in the end, doesn't that mean that ShurikVch's point remains valid?

If I take the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Warmace) feat, I get to wield a 1d12 weapon in one hand as a martial weapon (provided I'm Medium).

But if I take the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Heavy warmace) feat, I get to wield a 2d8 weapon in one hand as a martial weapon. Right?

From here on, I could even decide to wield a Large-sized Heavy warmace in two hands, stomaching the -2 penalty on attack rolls, and I'm getting a 3d8 weapon. Is that correct? Then, I will have paid one feat and accepted a -2 penalty on to-hit in exchange for a bonus damage, when compared to a greatsword, equal to 3d8 - 2d6 (that's on average 6.5 extra damage). Since PA with a two-handed weapon gives +4 bonus for a -2 penalty, my net benefit there is 6.5 - 4 = 2.5 bonus damage. For the price of a feat. Meh, it's just at the level of Weapon Specialization.

[Darg]

I think the idea is that the proficiency feat would also allow it to be wielded one-handed. Meaning yes, a large heavy warmace would be 3d8 damage. However, what you have to keep in mind is how it can stack from there. Using Monkey grip or strong arm gauntlets can get you a 4d8 huge weapon. Add enlarge person for a 6d8 weapon. Combine the feat and item and spell for an 8d8 colossal weapon, not that you couldn't have just used greater mighty wallop (a pretty overpowered spell if I'm being honest and totally broken on a monk for 12d8 damage fists) anyways.

[Anthrowhale]

Note that due to some progression oddities, GMW on a small heavy warmace can do 12d6(~=42) damage while GMW on a medium heavy warmace does 8d8 (~=36) damage. Also note that small heavy maul + GMW does 12d6 damage without the warmace penalty.

[Crake]

Monkey Grip to my mind does have one edge case use: where you want to be the Medium guy wielding a Large Greataxe, paying -4 on every attack roll in return for the kinda-low probability of getting between 13 and 18 on your damage dice instead of maximum 12.

I assume you are arriving at the conclusion that the -2 for inappropriate size, and the -2 for using monkey grip are different penalties, and therefore stack, and that's how you are coming to the conclusion of -4 on attack rolls?

But that's not how monkey grip works. The -2 penalty for using monkey grip IS the -2 penalty for inappropriate size. At no point does it ever say that this -2 penalty is an additional penalty, and the fact that it has a "normal" section, means that the rules on using monkey grip are a replacement to the normal rules, not an addition to them.

Also, there's plenty of use cases for monkey grip outside of being able to weild large 2h weapons, namely being able to wield large 1h weapons in one hand and still have your offhand available, either for twf, or to have a shield.

Unfortunately, Heavy weapons (MoF p. 179) impose the Monkey Grip problem in reverse. You take -4 to your attack rolls with a Heavy weapon unless you have the right EWP feat, and you can only wield a Heavy weapon one size smaller than your own size category in two hands without taking the penalty. A Medium Warmace does 1d12 damage. A Heavy Medium Warmace does 2d8 damage. A Small Warmace does 1d10 damage, therefore a Small Heavy Warmace would do 2d6 damage. Therefore, you could wield a Small Heavy Warmace in two hands with no EWP and no attack penalty for 2d6 damage, i.e. literally no different than if you just wielded a Greatsword, or indeed a regular old Warmace in both hands as a martial weapon.

But yeah, if you're going to take EWP in a weapon anyway, you might as well make it a Heavy weapon for the extra damage dice since it's a EWP either way.

Its worth noting that this is again, a holdover from how 3.0 weapon sizes worked. A weapon itself has a size, and 2h weapons are considered the same size as the creature they were made for. When it says "one size category smaller than his own" it means, for example, a medium sized creature can wield a weapon that is a size of small, not one made for a small creature. A medium longsword, being a 1 handed weapon, has a size category of small, while a small sized greatsword has the same size category, however under 3.5 rules, the longsword would have a penalty when wielded by small creatures and the greatsword would have a penalty when wielded by medium creatures, due to them not being made for those creature sizes.

In essence, it increases the weilding category of a weapon by 1 if you lack the exotic weapon proficiency feat for it. This is made clear by the example of a human swinging a light mace made of gold in 2 hands to avoid the penalty. The mace does not need to be sized for a small creature, it merely needs to be of small size itself (which medium 1 handed weapons are).

Yes, it's very confusing, because weapons both have a size category, and a creature size that they were made for, which is why I think the old system (which is now an optional rule in the 3.5 DMG on page 27 "weapon equivalencies") is just the far more superior and intuitive.

[remetagross]

But that's not how monkey grip works. The -2 penalty for using monkey grip IS the -2 penalty for inappropriate size. At no point does it ever say that this -2 penalty is an additional penalty, and the fact that it has a "normal" section, means that the rules on using monkey grip are a replacement to the normal rules, not an addition to them.

Huh. This is a good point. This makes things a little better.

Note that however, Monkey Grip does not say "you can use melee weapons one size category larger than you normally could" but "you can use melee weapons one size category larger than you are". Which means, for one, that it does not stack with Powerful Build, and I don't have the wording of the Strongarm Bracers before the eye, but it might not stack with that item either.

[Saintheart]

...so in the end, doesn't that mean that ShurikVch's point remains valid?

If I take the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Warmace) feat, I get to wield a 1d12 weapon in one hand as a martial weapon (provided I'm Medium).

But if I take the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Heavy warmace) feat, I get to wield a 2d8 weapon in one hand as a martial weapon. Right?

From here on, I could even decide to wield a Large-sized Heavy warmace in two hands, stomaching the -2 penalty on attack rolls, and I'm getting a 3d8 weapon. Is that correct? Then, I will have paid one feat and accepted a -2 penalty on to-hit in exchange for a bonus damage, when compared to a greatsword, equal to 3d8 - 2d6 (that's on average 6.5 extra damage). Since PA with a two-handed weapon gives +4 bonus for a -2 penalty, my net benefit there is 6.5 - 4 = 2.5 bonus damage. For the price of a feat. Meh, it's just at the level of Weapon Specialization.

As said, it comes down to whether you want to spend an EWP on it. Which I was under the impression the OP didn't want to. And which you'd absolutely need to if it was a Heavy weapon, because without EWP - or wielding a small version of the Heavy Warmace in two hands -- you're wearing -4 to the attack rolls all the time.

We can certainly agree about the damage increase. A Large Warmace does 3d6. A Heavy, Large Warmace would do 3d8, because a Heavy weapon increases each of the weapon's original damage dice, i.e. each d6 becomes a d8 in this case. Hence why if you're going for a EWP feat anyway, you might as well make it an EWP in a Heavy version of that exotic weapon for the upgraded damage dice.

That said, even if you have a EWP in the weapon, that doesn't do anything about the penalties for wielding inappropriately sized weapons.

Having EWP in Heavy Warmace doesn't touch on the amount of effort required to wield the weapon. At least not by RAW. If you're wielding a Large weapon as a Medium character, you take a -2 because the weapon isn't appropriately sized for you, and whatever the weapon actually is, it's considered a category bigger: a Large light weapon is deemed a one-handed weapon, a Large one-handed weapon is deemed a two-handed weapon, and a Large two-handed weapon is something other than two-handed for a Medium character, and thus can't be wielded at all.

See the problem? As a Medium character, you can't wield a Large Warmace in one hand even if you have EWP because EWP does nothing about inappropriate weapon sizes. By contrast, Monkey Grip specifically does address this: a Large one-hander is still considered a one-handed weapon even if you're a Medium wielder. Therefore, if you want to wield that Large Warmace in one hand, it requires Monkey Grip as well. And Monkey Grip sweats you for another -2 on the attack roll, at least arguably on top of the -2 from wielding a weapon not optimally sized for you. EWP doesn't touch on those elements, though it wouldn't be a hard ask to say it should given how most "EWP with 1 hand, martial with 2" weapons are worded.

But just to underline: if you wanted to have an EWP in a Heavy, Large Warmace, and wield said Warmace in two hands, you could do that without taking Monkey Grip, and the total attack penalty would be -2 on a 3d8 damage weapon. No penalty from Heavy because you've got the EWP, no Monkey Grip required because even if the Warmace is Large, it is still by category a one-handed weapon, and thus considered a two-handed weapon for you in terms of effort required to wield it.

I think the idea is that the proficiency feat would also allow it to be wielded one-handed. Meaning yes, a large heavy warmace would be 3d8 damage. However, what you have to keep in mind is how it can stack from there. Using Monkey grip or strong arm gauntlets can get you a 4d8 huge weapon. Add enlarge person for a 6d8 weapon. Combine the feat and item and spell for an 8d8 colossal weapon, not that you couldn't have just used greater mighty wallop (a pretty overpowered spell if I'm being honest and totally broken on a monk for 12d8 damage fists) anyways.

The quibble I'd have here is that Monkey Grip explicitly only allows you to wield weapons one size category larger than your own without changing the effort, i.e. a Monkey Grip wouldn't apply to a Medium wielder swinging a Huge weapon around. Strongarm Gauntlets also don't do anything about the 'effective size' of a weapon either, i.e. if something's a two-handed weapon for a Large wielder and you're Medium, Strongarm Gauntlets won't let you wield it, because that weapon would still be something other than a two-handed weapon for a Medium character.

[Saintheart]

I assume you are arriving at the conclusion that the -2 for inappropriate size, and the -2 for using monkey grip are different penalties, and therefore stack, and that's how you are coming to the conclusion of -4 on attack rolls?

Yep, hence why my post said "I would say cumulatively."

But that's not how monkey grip works. The -2 penalty for using monkey grip IS the -2 penalty for inappropriate size. At no point does it ever say that this -2 penalty is an additional penalty, and the fact that it has a "normal" section, means that the rules on using monkey grip are a replacement to the normal rules, not an addition to them.

I don't disagree that's the interpretation we'd all prefer was in place. It's just a case of poor phrasing by WOTC and a lack of a good errata once again. If my reading's conservative and most reasonable DMs see it your way, then happy days.

Also, there's plenty of use cases for monkey grip outside of being able to weild large 2h weapons, namely being able to wield large 1h weapons in one hand and still have your offhand available, either for twf, or to have a shield.

Sure. For which it delivers a modest-ish increase in damage given light weapons tend to bob around the d4 or d6 mark, resulting in a rough +1 or so in expected damage. I don't disagree. That said, given the weapons are only changing in terms of effort used - and not their applicability to things like Power Attack- I just think the main practical use for M.Grip is on Large two-handed weapons.

[Crake]

I don't disagree that's the interpretation we'd all prefer was in place. It's just a case of poor phrasing by WOTC and a lack of a good errata once again. If my reading's conservative and most reasonable DMs see it your way, then happy days.

I mean, you are the first person I've ever seen who's read it that way, in all honesty.

Sure. For which it delivers a modest-ish increase in damage given light weapons tend to bob around the d4 or d6 mark, resulting in a rough +1 or so in expected damage. I don't disagree. That said, given the weapons are only changing in terms of effort used - and not their applicability to things like Power Attack- I just think the main practical use for M.Grip is on Large two-handed weapons.

Right, if you're looking at it from a purely numbers perspective, but some people just like the thematic of being strong enough to wield a 2 handed weapon in one hand, just look at titans grip in world of warcraft, people love it, not because it's necessarily a powerful ability, but because it lets them wield 2 handed weapons in one hand and (at least in their opinion) look cool while doing so.

[Darg]

The quibble I'd have here is that Monkey Grip explicitly only allows you to wield weapons one size category larger than your own without changing the effort, i.e. a Monkey Grip wouldn't apply to a Medium wielder swinging a Huge weapon around. Strongarm Gauntlets also don't do anything about the 'effective size' of a weapon either, i.e. if something's a two-handed weapon for a Large wielder and you're Medium, Strongarm Gauntlets won't let you wield it, because that weapon would still be something other than a two-handed weapon for a Medium character.

It's an ongoing debate that will likely never see a general consensus. Basically the theory is that strongarm gauntlets modify your effective size with respect to the effort required to use a weapon. Monkey grip on the other hand just flat out gives you permission to wield larger weapons than you are. So in effect a medium sized character is for the purposes of wielding an oversized weapon a large creature capable of wielding weapons one size larger than the large creature they are considered as. It's 100% up to interpretation. I just prefer my order of operations to be consistent myself: if a rule doesn't have to conflict, then it doesn't. I apply that to everything because it makes all of the rules consistent with probable RAI. Basically you allow the effects to stack because the only conflict is whether either effect is only based on your base size. No one ever thinks strongarm or monkey grip won't work with enlarge person even though your base size is still medium. If there is an argument against them stacking, it should start with stackers justifying why the "normal" in the strongarm bracer's description wouldn't be using the "normal" term definition in the PHB glossary.

If my reading's conservative and most reasonable DMs see it your way, then happy days.

I use it this way in my games because it makes logical sense. When you have normal text in a feat description, it's there so you can compare what the feat is doing compared to what is normal. Basically the feat is modifying the "normal".

Benefit
You can use melee weapons one size category larger than you are with a -2 penalty on the attack roll, but the amount of effort it takes you to use the weapon does not change.

Normal
You can use a melee weapon one size category larger than you are with a -2 penalty on the attack roll, and the amount of effort it takes to use the weapon increases.

Putting them side by side can make the point clearer. As you can see, the feat is only changing how much effort it takes to wield a larger weapon.