Where to get into fallout series?

[Quizatzhaderac]

I think I'll start with NV, unless fallout 1 is basically free.

.......The problem is that if you aren't good at the narrative side, the paint flecks off and you see the rust underneath, it's just a sequence of go here commands you are following like a good little puppy.

I have this theory that a good game (or other longform fiction) should essentially "lie" about what it's overall structure will be. Or to put it another way, early expectations should be broken.

The ur example of this is Arabian Nights, which has a framing device where Scheherazade deceives the king about how many stories she will tell. If you haven't read it, the deception is nested, and it's hard to say how many stories are included, even being aware of the central conceit; for example in The fisherman and the Jinn, neither the fisherman or the Jinn appear after the halfway mark; or when Scheherazade's father threatens to beat her, he pauses in the middle to tell a story about a rooster/pimp, and a story about a lazy horse to provide context about the rooster's owner.

A good earlier example is in FFVII where initially you have the goal of blowing up these eight reactors. You blow up two before so much stuff^tm happens you forget about blowing up reactors.

With most good stories you should be a little surprised at where you are and what's happening all the time. All of good videogames will have thier plot dip in and out of being formulaic in order to keep you from between being bored and adrift.

No. I am sorry, no. I disagree fundamentally with this, and the very idea that this is what an "rpg is" has poisoned Bethesda games since Oblivion.

RPG can HAVE that. I do not mind the idea that there can be "go there, kill/loot, come back" as part of an RPG. But it is not the "boiled down to its fundamental". Its not even basic quest design boiled down to its fundamental.

I think maybe a helpfull analogy is that that gameplay loop it like a big concrete slab is to a house.

It's standard practice to build a house with a concrete slab as a foundation, but the foundation is not (by itself) a remotely a house. A tent makes a much better house than a plain concrete slab. But if you're a (very stupid) construction company putting in foundations for houses feels like building houses. Or if you're a little less stupid you figure you'll worry about the first part first, and find you don't have time to figure out roofs before your deadline.

[veti]

I think I'll start with NV, unless fallout 1 is basically free.

Back when games came on discs, I got Fallout 1&2 in a combo pack for, IIRC, $2.99. So I'd be surprised if you can't get 1 for "basically free".

But I'd recommend NV anyway. The only problem with starting there is that it's basically downhill every way. Plus we may have built up your expectations.

I have this theory that a good game (or other longform fiction) should essentially "lie" about what it's overall structure will be. Or to put it another way, early expectations should be broken.

Well, I think plot twists are pretty generally recognised as a key part of good storytelling, and most games have them to some extent. But some work better than others.

[Quizatzhaderac]

Well, I think plot twists are pretty generally recognised as a key part of good storytelling, and most games have them to some extent.

Generally, yes, but I think in this specific circumstances it's not often not recognized.

For instance I was disappointed with Tales of Arise which established early on that there were five lords and a kind to be defeated. There were a bunch of plot twists, but they were all neatly contained in exactly the expected order lord1, lord2, lord3, lord4, lord5, and the king. Each chapter was in it's own completely separate geographic area. You could comfortably forget most everything from the last chapter as it would have no bearing on the plot or setting moving forward.

[Cikomyr2]

Well, I think plot twists are pretty generally recognised as a key part of good storytelling, and most games have them to some extent. But some work better than others.

I don't know about plot twist. But a minimal number of plot misdirection is usually a good thing to avoid your plot being episodic and predictable.

If your players expect to go and collect the 6 McGuffins of the End World, make sure the last one has already been snapped by the bad guys, or broken. Or instead of being a big showdown like all the other 5 pieces, have the bad guy not even contest the final piece, but instead he confess he knows the plot about the McGuffins that is fated to end him, has seen it coming.

I think ultimately, the "misdirection" is meant to allow the reconciliation between what a character wants vs what a character needs.

In New Vegas, the Courier wants to recover the Chip/Revenge on Benny. But what the Courier needs is build a network of partners and allies to help him reshape the face of the Mojave.

The initial "want" is but a mirage thrown in your face, a pretext to adventure informed by your inexperience.

[Errorname]

I think ultimately, the "misdirection" is meant to allow the reconciliation between what a character wants vs what a character needs.

In New Vegas, the Courier wants to recover the Chip/Revenge on Benny. But what the Courier needs is build a network of partners and allies to help him reshape the face of the Mojave.

The initial "want" is but a mirage thrown in your face, a pretext to adventure informed by your inexperience.

I don't really see a conflict between want and need in New Vegas. That's partially because what the Courier actually wants is player determined so maybe you really hate Benny's guts, maybe you're just a professional, hell maybe you didn't actually try to track him down and you just ran into him in Vegas coincidentally, but it's also because there's never a moment where you have to realize "I don't need to get revenge, I need to be the kingmaker in the battle for Hoover Dam".

The way the story is structured, tracking down and dealing with Benny is the thing that puts the courier on the map and makes them a serious player on the field.

[veti]

there's never a moment where you have to realize "I don't need to get revenge, I need to be the kingmaker in the battle for Hoover Dam".

The way the story is structured, tracking down and dealing with Benny is the thing that puts the courier on the map and makes them a serious player on the field.

Sheer dumb luck puts the courier in a unique position to decide the fate of the Mojave. From that position, you kinda do need to pick a winner from the available candidates, self included. It's the condition for completing the game.

[Errorname]

Sheer dumb luck puts the courier in a unique position to decide the fate of the Mojave. From that position, you kinda do need to pick a winner from the available candidates, self included. It's the condition for completing the game.

Right, but it's not "want vs need" in the sense of "I thought I wanted to get revenge, but instead I really needed to singlehandedly win the battle of Hoover Dam for [X]". There's no conflict between these motivations in the game, the revenge story gets resolved and then as a consequence the Courier gets tangled up in the political story. It's not a story about a character realizing what they actually need instead of what they thought they wanted, both because that's not the structure and because the Courier is so player directed that their actual motivations can be variable depending on the player.

[Cikomyr2]

Right, but it's not "want vs need" in the sense of "I thought I wanted to get revenge, but instead I really needed to singlehandedly win the battle of Hoover Dam for [X]". There's no conflict between these motivations in the game, the revenge story gets resolved and then as a consequence the Courier gets tangled up in the political story. It's not a story about a character realizing what they actually need instead of what they thought they wanted, both because that's not the structure and because the Courier is so player directed that their actual motivations can be variable depending on the player.

There is no "conflict", but they go in different directions nevertheless.

You are 100% right that the two objectives are not at odds. But transitioning from the hurt/revenge story to the Power Broker story enacts this transition.

In a way, the Courier also has the choice to simply refuse to engage mentally with the power broker plot. In that case, he simply remains House's loyal little employee who gets paid. Going for the NCR, Legion or Yes-man requires you to take matter in your own hands and actually decide to stake what you believe in.

[Errorname]

There is no "conflict", but they go in different directions nevertheless.

I don't dispute that taking down Benny is a major turning point, I am specifically objecting to describing it through the framework of "want vs need". I think it's a bad lens that doesn't really reflect how the story functions. There is no tension between taking down Benny and the wider faction conflict, and the courier's character isn't solid enough to actually have clear 'wants' or 'needs'

[Cikomyr2]

I don't dispute that taking down Benny is a major turning point, I am specifically objecting to describing it through the framework of "want vs need". I think it's a bad lens that doesn't really reflect how the story functions. There is no tension between taking down Benny and the wider faction conflict, and the courier's character isn't solid enough to actually have clear 'wants' or 'needs'

Well, the thing is, merely killing Benny and delivering the Chip.. does nothing, right?

Nothing is accomplished by this. Hell, there's even a scripted even that allow Benny to escape Caesar's camp. And it has no impact on the plot.

Because the revenge, ultimately, was pointless.

[Errorname]

Because the revenge, ultimately, was pointless.

Foiling Benny's plan and taking the platinum chip is necessary for 3 out of 4 main quest pathways. That the game lets you spare Benny and then didn't have the budget to factor that into the rest of the game (they batted about having him come back and try to kill you or making him a follower, neither panned out) doesn't mean that confronting Benny and obtaining the Platinum Chip is not essential to the main quest.

[Cikomyr2]

Foiling Benny's plan and taking the platinum chip is necessary for 3 out of 4 main quest pathways. That the game lets you spare Benny and then didn't have the budget to factor that into the rest of the game (they batted about having him come back and try to kill you or making him a follower, neither panned out) doesn't mean that confronting Benny and obtaining the Platinum Chip is not essential to the main quest.

Hmm.. is it even possible to complete the game by never even touching the Platinum chip and never accessing the Bunker? Does the NCR make you go to Caesar's camp?

[Mando Knight]

Hmm.. is it even possible to complete the game by never even touching the Platinum chip and never accessing the Bunker? Does the NCR make you go to Caesar's camp?

NCR's main quest doesn't even require you to enter the Tops, you could decide that the ultimate revenge is having Benny live his little NPC life totally oblivious to the fact that the person he thought he killed not only survived but turned into the regional kingmaker.

[Lurkmoar]

NCR's main quest doesn't even require you to enter the Tops, you could decide that the ultimate revenge is having Benny live his little NPC life totally oblivious to the fact that the person he thought he killed not only survived but turned into the regional kingmaker.

Isn't one of Colonel Moore's missions to get rid of Mr. House? I've never ignored Benny personally, so The Platinum Chip always ended up back in my hands. I suppose that's what those random Lucky 38 override cards are for? For players who had Benny escape and had the Legion hostile, so if they balked at going to the fort, they could accomplish removing House another way?

[Mando Knight]

Isn't one of Colonel Moore's missions to get rid of Mr. House? I've never ignored Benny personally, so The Platinum Chip always ended up back in my hands. I suppose that's what those random Lucky 38 override cards are for? For players who had Benny escape and had the Legion hostile, so if they balked at going to the fort, they could accomplish removing House another way?

The Chip is just one of several ways to get into House's inner sanctum. The terminal is a Hard (75 Science) lock, and the Lucky 38 VIP keycards can also provide access.