[Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

[Eighth_Seraph]

I like your reasoning behind all of this, Jagad.

Rapid shot makes sense as well. The problem with iterative attacks is how many attacks something can make accurately, with skill, not how many they can churn out per second. I could see a low level earth bender throwing a dozen rocks in a round, but it's unlikely any of them would be even close to accurate.

Situations like that is exactly why I began developing the seed/form system. A low-level bender could do that, but it would be a form whose details would have to be worked out with the DM, rather than a fluffed-up blast.



It has become increasingly clear from the minor quibbles that we're obsessing over that the bending system is pretty effectively representing what we see in the Avatar show. Because of this, I think that now would be a good time to start the groundwork for the 4e conversion of the system, since enough has been released about the what types of actions will be available to us and how powers operate to lay down a rough skeleton that will be easily built upon and revised when the PHB, and maybe an SRD become available .

The first thing that comes to mind is a small revamp of how seeds are used in relation to forms. Rather than have seeds that can be used as-is, the 4e system as I'm currently envisioning it would have the basic class progression we're using now, but each bender would make custom at-will powers for herself using different aspects of the seeds available to her. Of course, there would be a supply of pre-designed at-will forms for benders to use. In story terms, these would be the basic techniques that any worthwhile bending master teaches his students; much like Tae Kwon Do has the six basic kicks and four basic blocks that every practitioner must know before even being given a uniform.

Encounter and per-day forms are trickier. I'm thinking about whether we should even make per-day forms (It pretty much defeats the purpose of bending as we've characterized it in 3e), so we'll discuss that as it comes up, assuming anyone else is still enthusiastic enough to buckle down and get creative again. I'm thinking that per-encounter forms could be decided by the Bending DC of the form. For example; if the base DC of a form is more than half of the bender's modifier (using only ranks and mental attribute), then it is limited by the bender's per-encounter number. It should be pretty easy to avoid abuse because of 4e's more standardized skill system and our setting's lack of magical items.

Of course we have a serious problem in that 4e has not released any sort of martial artist class, so we'll be making a monk-flavored caster class without any monk to mirror. Now, if anyone's up for starting this branch of project, let me know this thread or through PM. If there's enough support then we can begin the conversion.

[jagadaishio]

I'm going to hold off on providing my input on the 4e conversion until I get my books in two weeks, read them cover to cover, read the PHB another two or three times, make two characters for each class, and run two test battles of the D&D 4e system. You know, wait until I really understand it.

[dman11235]

Yes, wait until after 4e comes out and then some before starting on that. Also, wait until we get 3.5 perfect first.

[Eighth_Seraph]

Alright, fair enough. I'm a bit worried that not enough people will have access to 4e materials. Any word on the creation of an SRD?

Also, wait until we get 3.5 perfect first.

Nonononononono. Bad idea. The problem with trying to get a project 'perfect' is that our system of "leadership" for guiding this project is highly democratic and relies upon the opinions of at least a dozen people. We'll never agree on when the project is perfect.

However, the I guess we can get it as close as possible, and that means resolving this unarmed strike issue. For the purposes of this project, any bonus given to unarmed strikes applies to all attacks made with physical extensions of the character's body. If for some reason a character were to be given the effects of Magic Fang in this non-magical world, then all unarmed attacks will be given the appropriate bonus. Further, number of unarmed strikes has no bearing on iterative attacks. It is what it is. Here is my reasoning.

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I am a martial artist myself, and I know that my left hand and right hand are very different types of weapons in my arsenal. They are, however, both parts of the same whole. I interpret unarmed strikes as a bit of an ambiguity in the rules. What this means to me is that yes, a character may have several unarmed strikes, but only as many as he is competent with. To a non-martial artist without Improved Unarmed Strike, this means effectively that he has no unarmed strikes, but we'll give him one in case of emergency. Martial artists in general (including benders) have four unarmed strikes (two hands, two feet). Some martial arts may have as many as eight or nine (elbows, knees, head), but these are to be specifically pointed out by the fighting style of the class or by the player to the DM ahead of time. No matter how many unarmed strikes one has, however, there is no impact on iterative attacks. The wizards FAQ laid down a hard-and-fast rule that you CAN apply two-weapon fighting to unarmed strikes, as if they are two weapons. For our purposes, a martial artist could use two-weapon fighting with his hands and his feet, but still only get bonus attacks as if he were using two weapons. So no qualifications for multiattack, etc.

Broken? Idiotic? Maybe, maybe not. But it's there. You don't have to like it, but let's stop fighting over it. If you have an amazing revelation and have a new argument to present; PM me, or Meph if I'm inactive again at that point. Playtest it and prove that it's broken, and we'll talk.

However, Meph was very clear in this write-up when he mentioned that there would be no Flurrying or two-weapon fighting with blasts, though he made the concession for Rapid Shot.

Now, back to other issues at hand. Apparently Water Whip is a useless seed. I'd like to see an argument presented before we begin trying to "fix" this issue. I knew when I made the seed that it was statistically inferior to, well, everything else. Nevertheless, the point of the seed was not to do damage. It is a seed that was made for the express purpose of being incorporated into forms. Sure, we gave it some bonuses to trip and disarm so that the uncreative can get some use out of it; but the whip is a general range-extension and contact-making aspect of a form. The Capture ability that we attached to the seed is basically a pre-made Water Whip/Manipulate form. I would not consider Water Whip to be useless, but it does require a certain amount of creativity to use effectively. Remember that the whole point of this project is the individual creation of new abilities from non-statistical and outright fluff parts of the seeds we've provided. Just because the water whip only deals a single die of damage does not make it useless. That's my assertion. What's the counterpoint?

[Guyr Adamantine]

I see the original philosophy behind Water Whip, but I don't agree. I think that even if the seed is meant to encourage creativity, it shouldn't suck.

It's like claiming a class isn't broken because the DM can fix it, its just a bad argument.

I suggest giving it a boost, as no given options should suck in a good system.

[Ceiling009]

In the vein, Ice Shards is still better, cause then you can add all the seeds and the like to make it better, from capture, freeze, tidal wave, and more. In fact, Ice Shards lets' you make weapons of ice, and if you have proficiency (lets say you had a fighter level) you could make Ice Great swords and be completely proficient (not about the current ice shards, and if it doesn't, it should). The only downside would be that as a ranged attack, you can't threaten squares.
And in fact, by the time Katara gets to being rather useful on the battlefield, she's no longer using Water whip as outlined, but rather a really interesting take on tentacle. Looking at the both of them, it would seem that Tentacle and water whip could be the same seed, with just different levels of proficiency; the whip being the lowest, and tentacles being something much higher.

[dman11235]

By "perfect" I meant as good as humanly possible.

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So, with regards to TWF, where is this FAQ ruling? In the last FAQ I didn't see anything pertaining to that. I saw that you can TWF with the unarmed strike as the off-hand, and that you can TWF and flurry at the same time. I did not see that you can TWF using an unarmed strike as both weapons. In fact, the FAQ ruling saying that you can TWF using an US as the off-hand had nothing to do with TWF, it was in regards to the monk description, clarifying that a monk may make an unarmed strike with any part of his/her body without additional penalty.

These are the problems I see with allowing TWF using only your unarmed strikes. The first paragraph will deal with the explanation of TWF and only one unarmed strike, the second with you have multiple unarmed strikes.

If you only have one unarmed strike (which is supported by the rules in that nowhere does it ever indicate that each character has more than one unarmed strike, which is something they would probably include, much like how every double weapon states that it is more than one weapon, yet the unarmed strike description is lacking this clause), you run afoul of a few problems, balance and flavor wise. One, how do you adjudicate the casting of Greater Magic Fang on the character if they TWF? Does the single casting of the spell (or other buffs, like a Necklace of Natural Attacks and other spells) effectively boost two weapons, the off- and on-hands? Two, how do you justify using TWF with only one weapon? This goes for both flavor and balance wise, your body is a weapon as a whole, how is it also two?

If you have multiple unarmed strike, you run into even more issues. First off, how do you determine which limb gets what bonus at what time, if you have a buff spell cast on you, like GMW? Does it just change each time you strike with that limb as an on- or off-hand? Second, how do you determine how many unarmed strike a character has? This may seem like a simple answer, your hands, but a monk can strike with any part of their body, so is it not separate parts of the body, and thus separate weapons, and thus an arbitrarily high number of attacks that can be made? This issue is exacerbated by creatures with more than two hands, thus capable of taking Multi-Weapon Fighting, primary culprit: the Diopsid (Dragon Compendium). A weaker Thri-Kreen, it has four arms, but normally can only wield two weapons (two of the arms are very weak), but gets massive bonuses to those two weapons, primarily in the form of dual-wielding greatswords (and getting 1.5xstr to damage, and 2x pw attack since it's 2-handed). So even with the limit of your hands, the Diopsid gets an overpowering boost with this. Thirdly, this argument is based heavily on the interpretation of "off-hand". Note how those are just words. The definition of an off-hand attack is NOT something wielded in your off-hand. They did away with that in the switch to 3.5. It is the weapon that takes bigger penalties while TWF or MWF, notably the 1/2 str to damage. Hence the need for an FAQ ruling that an unarmed strike is capable of being an off-hand attack, due to the poor wording of the monk's ability.

Finally, my argument. It will be overpowering to allow TWF with just unarmed strikes, due to a) the abuses I presented in the other two paragraphs, and b) the fact that it's not just the lowly monk that would get this boost, the unarmed swordsage and every other unarmed build would get this boost. And this is a really big boost. This doubles your damage output at the cost of three feats, and barely misses doubling it at the cost of one feat (the lower itteratives are not likely to hit). This doubling does not come at the additional cost of money like normal TWF does (they have to enchant more than one weapon, which is 400,000 gp for two +10 weapons, more than half of the wealth of a level 20 character), or is more than a doubling (MWF+arbitrarily high number of attacks). Also, there are ways to make your unarmed strikes deal MUCH more damage than normal attacks (record is 34d8 base, +wis, str, and dex, +more from weapon enchantments+miscellaneous, +wisx2 to attack+weapon enhancements+BAB+miscellaneous). I'd like to see your rogue pull that off. No where do the rules state that it is possible to TWF using only unarmed strikes, and I this means that it is not possible. This is something that rulebooks will say if it is possible, else they would be relying on inference using other rules, which is also not present. As for the realism argument, I know of no one who is capable of TWF using only their unarmed strikes. I know only of people who use FoB and Snap Kick, and the normal flailing attacks that have no chance of hitting, hence don't have an attack roll associated with them.

The problem isn't that it does no (re: little enough to not matter much) damage (though if I go this route I need to deal SOME damage). I'm fine with that. The problem is that it doesn't do damage AND the other way it is supposed to work doesn't work. You do not threaten an area while wielding it. Therefore: no battlefield control (which is what this seed SCREAMS). Also, you provoke attacks of opportunity while using it. Something else not very good.

[Pirate_King]

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this thing just goes on forever, don't it? I just don't think the PH would bother state that the unarmed strike counts as a light weapon for purposes of TWF if you couldn't TWF with unarmed strike. it's right there in the SRD:

If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a -6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a -10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way. You can reduce these penalties in two ways:

* If your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. (An unarmed strike is always considered light.)

Does this mean that you can only use unarmed strike in TWF if it's your off-hand, and the first attack is made with a weapon? if so, that is just plain ridiculous.

personally, I'd only allow someone to do that if they had improved unarmed strike, though it would be stupid to do it otherwise, as you'd provoke an AoO for both attacks.

Personally, I never understood why whips provoked AoO. I mean, if you're using the weapon to trip, isn't using a weapon to trip generally a viable way to avoid the AoO? I could be wrong.

although, it kind of makes sense. I mean, if you're using the range of the whip properly, no one can get an AoO on you, because they don't threaten you.

I still sort of support the whip seeds threatening, though. Indiana Jones has definitely taken attacks of opportunity with his whip.

A thing I've been thinking about, though, may sort of mess with the whole basis of the system, that is a system that has a handful of dead levels where the only way a bender is becoming a better bender is a single skill point. this has just sort of been nagging me.

[dman11235]

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You're missing some logical connections there. Of course you can TWF with an unarmed strike. You just need something else as well. You can use the US as either the off- or on-hand, but not as both.

It's because they require large motions to use. If you've ever watched someone actually use a whip (not like lion tamers and animal riders and such, like, actual weapon uses) it requires lavish motions. Though one possible reason to not include the AoO: you don't actually hold it. That time in the North Pole, she used Ice Shards and Manipulate to form a whip of water. This is just the controlling of the whip with bending, more like the single water whip. This provides a more clear distinction between the two seeds, and a couple different benefits: Ice Shards deals more damage (and has a few other goodies), Water Whip threatens an area, doesn't provoke, and uses wisdom instead of a physical stat.

And I agree on the dead levels, though I've been having trouble figuring out what should go at them, since adding abilities just to fill dead levels is a BAD idea.

[Pirate_King]

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[QUOTE=dman11235;4370432]

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You're missing some logical connections there. Of course you can TWF with an unarmed strike. You just need something else as well. You can use the US as either the off- or on-hand, but not as both.

this just doesn't make sense to me, especially if one has taken a feat to have their unarmed strikes considered weapons. I also still don't really get how this is terribly game-breaking. it's certainly less game-breaking than a number of combinations of spells. It's really only effective if you're a monk, and it's one more attack with stacking penalties. going further in the TWF chain would be a waste of feats for an unarmed monk.

Though one possible reason to not include the AoO: you don't actually hold it. Water Whip threatens an area, doesn't provoke, and uses wisdom instead of a physical stat.

italics mine. don't try to bring up another argument that was settled way back. sneaky.

Last time this came up, meph provided a pick that had katara holding it, and all bending seeds have heavy somatic qualities. that's why forms provoke AoO. I think it should still provoke (it doesnt provoke to create the thing, so it's not too big a deal, I think, and if you're using it right, you won't be in a threatened square anyway), but it should also threaten squares in its range.

I was thinking the bending skill could be based on a level check of some kind instead of a skill, though the DC's would have to be altered considerably, and skill focus wouldn't be applicable. Knowledge bending could still provide a bonus, and would still work as a prerequisite for feats. maybe something as simple as bender level + wis or something. changing the DC's could be a tough one, though. that way, even on dead levels, a bender is by necessity a better bender, instead of only a better bender if she continues to max her skill out. This is coming from the line of thought that spell casters always get more spells every level, and fighters always get a higher BAB every level, and every other class always gets better at whatever role that class fills every level, no matter how they decide to improve the character.

[dman11235]

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I'm pointing out that it is far from RAW that you either have more than one unarmed strike or you can TWF with one weapon.

I know I'm sneaky. But you have to admit that it would differentiate it from Ice Shards more (see previous post on argument that it wasn't Water Whip she used there, it was Ice Shards+Manipulate to form a whip minus the ice), and the Single Water Whip from those early episodes is not well represented yet. I'm seriously staining my brain to figure out a way to do it and failing. Unless it's just a blast? That can trip? Also on the topic of provoking, we don't really have any place that shows an enemy threatening Katara when she uses any possible water whip form, so that can't really be settled except by guesses. My guess is that it either would provoke as a ranged attack or it would provoke and you can use it defensively (like a spell/power/etc).

...simple as binder level + cha or something.

Note the simple changes, and you have something that already exists. I'm in favor of this...maybe. Your skill based system isn't broken like truenamers. Since there's nothing auto-win there's not much you can abuse, and since you actually work well without heavy optimization (i.e., a competence ring +30) it's well balanced without it. The one biggest advantage of changing to a mere level based system is that in non-canon settings you won't be shoehorned into buying that ring and forsaking a possible VoPov. The other is that you can give boosts throughout the levels, at perceived dead levels, something like a +3 every couple levels, totaling a +15. That should do it. Note how by level 20 in this setting this will get you an average of +41, barring any way to boost wisdom. This is still not auto-succeed on the bigger ones. And introducing templates is still pretty dang harmful to the DC. Also, if you feel that is too much you can either lower the number of times they get it or raise some of the DCs. If it's too little, increase the number of times they get it. Also, don't go below +2 each time, so that the ability is actually worth something.

[Eighth_Seraph]

I'm perfectly alright with allowing Water Whip to threaten. One thing is, though, that it should not threaten adjacent squares. I seriously don't think that a whip can be used effectively at such close range. Of course, that would still not put it on par with the standard use of Tentacle if taken alone. I think that the main source of that is that we don't have a clause that allows for this technique, or others like it.

I get the feeling that the wording for that ability would be like walking through a valley full of spiky, animated rocks. What do you guys think?

[Guyr Adamantine]

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Go check the latest FAQ. It is, just like the Sage, ok with it.

Skill-boosting magic items wouldn't break the system, as just everyone is so heavily dependant on them that the system takes it into account.

[Pirate_King]

I think that the main source of that is that we don't have a clause that allows for this technique, or others like it.

I get the feeling that the wording for that ability would be like walking through a valley full of spiky, animated rocks. What do you guys think?

that actually seems pretty simple; just add a clause to increase the DC to grant a whirlwind attack that does trips instead of damage. anyone threatened by the water whip is subject to the improved tripping abilities the water whip grants. this would follow with allowing the water whip to threaten. (I imagine firewhip would threaten, too,even if it isn't so much with the mass tripping)

[Eighth_Seraph]

Skill-boosting magic items wouldn't break the system, as just everyone is so heavily dependant on them that the system takes it into account.

It's not the idea of it being broken or not that even matters here. Remember, this is a setting. There has been no evidence of any sort of item that would grant bonuses to bending skills, and I figure that by this point, if there were such items, we would have at least heard of them.

Also, on the topic of the Ice Shards moment at the North Pole (which I think is referring to this scene), I would have to say that that is not an application of the Ice Shards seed. Rather, it's just Katara making a Water Whip using available water. Remember, a waterbender only needs to use Manipulate to get her water if there isn't a water source within 5 feet.

I like the idea of a whirlwind attack with Water Whip, but I think that should be left as "clever application" of a simpler concept. For that simpler concept, I think it may be best to make good use of the Whip's clearly laid-out stats for length. By this I mean that a waterbender can use the whip to lash out in a 15-foot horizontal swath if she has a 15-foot whip.That takes care of situations like this, which we could interpret as Katara creating a 25-foot long whip and using its trip ability on the five adjacent enemies (there's a fifth opponent blocked out by Katara's head). Of course, there's clearly some sort of knockback included here, which we'll have to take care of.

[Pirate_King]

I like the idea of a whirlwind attack with Water Whip, but I think that should be left as "clever application" of a simpler concept. For that simpler concept, I think it may be best to make good use of the Whip's clearly laid-out stats for length. By this I mean that a waterbender can use the whip to lash out in a 15-foot horizontal swath if she has a 15-foot whip.That takes care of situations like this, which we could interpret as Katara creating a 25-foot long whip and using its trip ability on the five adjacent enemies (there's a fifth opponent blocked out by Katara's head). Of course, there's clearly some sort of knockback included here, which we'll have to take care of.

maybe a bull rush of sorts? and the whirlwind trip (or bull rush or whatever) goes well with the whip if it threatens its whole range, since the feat grants an attack on everyone opponent within reach. aang does a similar thing the first time he goes into the avatar state in the first episode, though it wasn't with a whip, really...

[Ceiling009]

What Katara does with in the Earth King, could have been tentacle + pressure, and something more that allows a whirlwind attack; or actually, it'd be Tentacle + Pressure + Ice shards to allow the multiple targets. Water whip is barely used.

[Pirate_King]

What Katara does with in the Earth King, could have been tentacle + pressure, and something more that allows a whirlwind attack; or actually, it'd be Tentacle + Pressure + Ice shards to allow the multiple targets. Water whip is barely used.

generally, when we see the tentacle seed, it comes directly from the water source and is based in the ground. I think we can attribute anything that's consistently floating around her, like how she wears it like a shawl of awesome later on, to the whip seed.

[Eighth_Seraph]

or actually, it'd be Tentacle + Pressure + Ice shards to allow the multiple targets. Water whip is barely used.

Emphasis mine. Why Ice Shards? I saw no shards of ice involved in this form at all. Remember that is not so much the statistics of a seed that matter towards making the form, but rather the general concept of it. What Katara did there was definitely an extension of her previous uses of Water Whip; though it may well have been a simple application of Pressure that allowed the knockback.

Let's do some number crunching, then. Base DC 10 + 20 (10-foot extension in order to hit 5 people) + 10 (Pressure) = DC 40 form. That's kinda tough, but the concept seems right. What this most clearly means is that the Water Whip seed does not limit forms to be held in the hand, but can be used within the bender's bending range, as normal for forms. This could have some interesting repercussions. I, for one, would like to propose lowering the DC increase for range extension on the whip from +10 to +5 per 5 feet. Thoughts?

[Ceiling009]

actually, my bad, it would have tentacle + pressure + wave, not ice shards. Instead using a wave, she instead uses a very large tentacle that's been significantly hardened, and now it can bull rush, then with the wave application, using the floating amount of water in the tentacle it now targets any thing in it's path and bull rushes that. It's more of a work around with the actual seeds than in pure concept. Unless of course Katara has like whirlwind attack or something... but why would she?

[dman11235]

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Nowhere in the FAQ is this addressed. You are thinking of the monk entries for FoB and TWF, correct? Well, read them again. Carefully. Note how nowhere in those paragraphs does it even hint at even addressing this issue

Hmm, me thinks we have multiple ways of achieving the same thing. Also, adding in Ice Shards+Melt/Freeze to form the whip that you hold. Not Manipulate as I previously said, that's my bad. So how is Water Whip different than this combo? My suggestion was the whole threaten an area thing and use wis as the stat for controlling it (since you aren't holding it, at least, in my interpretation, see Single Water Whip). Other suggestions I've seen are just letting it threaten its area (something I'll go for, as long as there is a reason to take this and not just have it be a combo Ice Shards+Melt/Freeze, minus the Melt/Freeze for something even more powerful, which this is), and, well, nothing else really. One change to the current mechanics suggested is the reduction of the DC hike for increased reach.

[Pirate_King]

I'd concede to wis bonus for the attack on that, but not to the damage, based on previous arguments on the philosophy behind waterbending.

[dman11235]

I wasn't arguing for that. In fact, there is no evidence that any time while waterbending anyone received any bonus to damage other than just the normal damage dice. Only possible time was that time Katara used that whip of water at the North Pole that didn't do any damage (immune due to armor bonus? Something else?). At least, iirc. So yeah, Firebending Study for waterbenders has no canon roots iirc. Most of the bending study feats don't really.

[Darkkwalker]

Well. Might as well throw my 2 cents in.

How do you get Ice Shards+Freeze/Melt to equal Water Whip?

Ice shards, and water being thrown for that matter, spread out in uneven distribution. If you've ever played with a hose and waved it back and forth you know what I'm talking about. What Katara is doing is nothing that is thrown. What it is is a controlled, expanding, circular movement of water. Basically Water Whip as seen in the Waterbending Scroll but around her whole body.

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and on the issue of unarmed strikes. My other 2 cents.
Also, a strike is one hit, with one object. My fists are two different objects. However they are both my fists and are very similar to each other. Not to mention they are a part of my own body. For purposes of fine motorskills proficiency is unequal, but for puposes of hitting I am just as proficient with one as the other. Sure being right handed my right punch is stronger than my left but is not really enough to make a difference.

Not entirely sure where I was going with this. But for the purposes of this project, I am with Eighth Seraph and PirateKing

[dman11235]

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It is not a punch! It is not your fist. It is an unarmed strike, and it can happen with any part of your body. Also, off-hand does not mean it's made with a hand

Use the Ice Shards part about creating a weapon, and create a whip. Now use Melt/Freeze to make it not ice.

[Pirate_King]

Okay, this conversation in the spoilers? I think it needs to stop. I had a response to the last one, but nothing new to say to the actual topic, so my reply would have been an unproductive part of a side conversation. The [spoiler] tag shouldn't be a valid way to carry on a topic that is completely separate from the current one. As for TWF and unarmed strikes, we needn't write any rules about it, let each DM run it in the way he or she sees best, since we've just about got to the point where we're repeating the same arguments and it just boils down to mindless contradiction. It really only greatly affects firebenders, anyway, since only they can channel their blasts in unarmed strikes.

EDIT: I have a productive addition: something I pointed out a while back, can't remember what people thought of it, but I thought it made more sense if we only let the weapon creation seeds make daggers, since that's all we see in the show, and it's really the only thing thats feasible. A sword made of ice? It would start to chip and shatter the minute it came into contact with a real weapon. and a spiked chain made of fire? silly.

[Ceiling009]

No. I like that the weapon seeds can make any weapon they're familiar with; why restrict the possibilities and the freedom of the player? And yes, if you can make supernaturally cold anything, and not be affected by it; why not make ice great swords? or Spiked chain whips? In fact, how does a whip of fire work anyway? It's energy, it's not tangible in the same effect water, earth, or even air is; it's just pure energy. If Zuko can make daggers and whips, why can't he make a spiked chain? I'd rather allow benders to do that.

[Darkkwalker]

In the show, I'm pretty sure she learns waterwhip before we ever see ice shards. I haven't watched it in a while though. Also, waterwhip was learned with a base substance of liquid water to begin with. ice doesn't ever come into play.

The weapons thing, think feasability. you could make an ice spiked chain. but you'd have to make each link individually. as far as I recall bending isn't really all that good at intricate work.
What needs to be understood is the nature of the medium. Ice isn't good for fluidity or sturdyness.

back on Ice Shards. Basically what it is is throwing water and freezing it at the sametime in a specific shape. Again with the hose analogy. Also, IIRC liquid water is always in play. of course it needs to be frozen.

I dunno. I'm probably rambling at this point and defeating myself. I'm of the firm opinion that waterwhip should be it's own seed.

On fire whip spiked chains. The reason a spiked chain does the damage it does is because it is tangible and spiked. The spikes puncture, rip, and tear. Fire doesn't work like that. Not in real life, and not in the show.

[Ceiling009]

Actually it does; at least in the show. Zuko's fire whips tore a rock out of the carven in the fight during crossroads of destiny. In fact, Azula's blue streams of fire work more like blades able to slice through buildings, shown in the Chase. Now that I think about it, Water Whip should be a template added to blasts and ice shards; and let it allow to do more, at least threaten squares.

[dman11235]

I like that idea ceiling. As it stands waterbenders don't have many templates. Though one question, how will it react with forms other than Ice Shards?