narutooo!!!!!

[geez3r]

Naruto... has potential. On a scale of 1-10 I'd rate it about a 7. Shippuden (or however you spell it) is a bit better than the older stuff but... I don't know it just feels lacking. If just a few changes were made, even subtly over time, it would be a much better series.

And because we've mentioned other series

Bleach is about an 8, it would more "legitimate" in my mind if someone eventually died. Everytime someone gets a "fatal" wound they'll lay facedown in the dirt for a few hours until help arrives with no down side.

One Piece is either a 5 or a 9. It's a 5 if you read it as a serious series, it's a 9 if you read it as a self parodying series

Tengen Toppa Gurren-Lagann is an 11. If you haven't seen this series, you are missing out; it's fantastic.

[Nerd-o-rama]

geez3r: Yes! It goes beyond the impossible, and kicks reason to the curb! Yet is still more comprehensible than anything else by that studio!

For now, I rate Avatar over Naruto because it's has pretty much has everything I expected from the plot of Naruto but condensed into a smaller series, so it doesn't feels like its been stuck in a rut for so long. The fights are less flashier, though better choreographed, and aren't prolonged by lame 'Let's hammer the power of friendship/dreaming into our viewers heads again' speeches or unnecessarily long flashbacks and the mystical abilities at least have something to do with the history of the world and shows some of the structure of their world (Bleach does this too) rather than just being there to abuse. If Naruto's story picks up, I'll change my mind. Bleach also started off good, but seems too have slowed down in the current arc, so I ony watch it for fights.

Avatar's main strength is that, as an American cartoon that knows it's never going to get more than three seasons* , it doesn't go for "decompressed" (read: unnecessarily drawn out) storytelling. The best action/adventure shows, Western or Eastern, animated or non, tend to be ones that are focused, written with a beginning, middle, and end in mind from the start. Otherwise things just drag out into 400 continuous episodes of filler when the writers run out of ideas/the manga its based on falls behind schedule (nowhere was this done more famously than Dragonball, which just kept getting renewed every time the writer tried to kill it).

*not counting spinoffs and barring massive Kim Possible-style petitioning.

[sune]

It's about some dude trying to be a ninja while wearing an orange jumpsuit.
That's bad enough.
Also, the voice acting and catchphrase suck. Ugh.

the voices are waaayy better in the japaniese

[Poison_Fish]

Thinks of a way to defend shounen action shows........fails miserably
Current Shounen Shows I am watching:
Minami-ke
Spice and Wolf
Zoku Sayonara Zetsubo Sensei
Clannad
and of course
Shakugan no Shana

Best shows are the ones that only last one to two season at max
(anime season is 12 episdoes)

Uh, quick point on at least two of those, and maybe 3.

Zetsubo Sensei is not shounen, it's comedy, much more an adult comedy in fact. Spice and Wolf isn't quite shounen either. I don't think Minami-ke is, but it's the only one I haven't seen. But as far as I know, it's a harem comedy.

Also, I happen to like shounen fights. But even then, I've lost my interest in Naruto.

[WarriorTribble]

Why is everyone insisting on comparing shonen anime in this thread, but no one's brought up Tengen Toppa Gurren-Lagann yet?

GL is a series where willpower directly alters reality. It's more comparable to Sailor Moon than Naruto. Hell, I'd go as far as saying Gurren Lagann is the male version of Sailor Moon.

6. Azula is FAR more evil than anything Naruto's universe can come up with.

Azula's villany comes from her sciopathic desire to be the best and most powerful, which is a trait shared by many villains. However since Avatar is an American children's show, she loses out on the ruthlessness, and manipulative aspects of villainy. As others have mentioned a Naruto villain has forced hundreds to kill just so he could find a worthy vessel for his spirit, and has controlled thousands using every emotion humans are capable of feeling. It's trivial to use someone via fear and anger, but it takes a special kind to control someone with love (platonic this is a kids show).

Ultimately Azula's singleminded nature makes her badass, but only circumstance makes her a villain. It's easy to think of scenarios where she's a benign force (her talents lie in... cooking), or even a protagonist (she's born an earth kingdom citizen). I don't mean to say that she's a bad character of course, just that as villians go... she's a declawed cat. Still one of my favorite characters nevertheless.

[EvilElitest]

*Activating flame shield.*

Spoiler

Show

Spoiler

Show

Oh no, i admit there are very similer characters, the differences is that Avatar is well written while still being so similar. I dislike Aang, but i don't dispise him and i don't spend every ep regreting the main character
Zuko is an angsty wanna be anti hero, but he comes out being a lot more easy to feel for than lord emo


from
EE

[Nerd-o-rama]

GL is a series where willpower directly alters reality. It's more comparable to Sailor Moon than Naruto. Hell, I'd go as far as saying Gurren Lagann is the male version of Sailor Moon.

Well, I was drawing the comparison because they both fall into the broad category of shounen (Japanese: "for young men"). Everyone else was bringing up Dragon Ball Z, Bleach, One Piece, Death Note, etc. which are also shounen (although all but the last are more traditional Action-Adventure/Martial Arts shows, as opposed to TTGL which is the superest of Super Robot shows).

But the masculine Sailor Moon comparison is valid too, as that show is shoujo (Japanese: "for young women"), and also kinda over-the-top ridiculous, though obviously much less so than Gurren-Lagann.

[Tengu]

No thread about Naruto can be complete without these:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=juaN-auM05Y&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkcGkRY5gWw&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAVhAPCusrE

Spoiler

Show

Notice how there's progressively fewer actual Naruto intro and more other stuff as it progresses. I wonder how will the fourth one look like... though it will probably be about an intro from the time when I stopped watching.

[tyckspoon]

No thread about Naruto can be complete without these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAVhAPCusrE

WTF Gaara. I've been involved in the fandom for... too long, how did I not ever encounter those until now?

[Tengu]

WTF Gaara. I've been involved in the fandom for... too long, how did I not ever encounter those until now?

From what I know these movies are made somewhere in Russia. Which makes sense, since this style is Eastern European Flash at its finest. Trust me, I know... I live here, after all.

[WarriorTribble]

Well, I was drawing the comparison because they both fall into the broad category of shounen (Japanese: "for young men"). Everyone else was bringing up Dragon Ball Z, Bleach, One Piece, Death Note, etc. which are also shounen (although all but the last are more traditional Action-Adventure/Martial Arts shows, as opposed to TTGL which is the superest of Super Robot shows).

But the masculine Sailor Moon comparison is valid too, as that show is shoujo (Japanese: "for young women"), and also kinda over-the-top ridiculous, though obviously much less so than Gurren-Lagann.

It's true GL can be categorized as shounen (maybe shounen parody?), but imo the trait that makes it somewhat unique is the aforementioned concept of spiral energy. To the best of my knowledge Sailor Moon is the only other series to revolve around a similar concept with their wish fulfilling Silver Crystal.

[EvilElitest]

lol! not really... have you even seen more then 5 naruto episodes? (avater sucks)

yet again, i'm going to assume that your being sarcastic again, but for the record, Nautro is horrible written, with bad charactization, uninteresting plots, illogical storyline, uninteresting conflicts and badly thought out cast, all of which Avatar has, dispite its flaws. I mean, i dislike Aang, but as i said before, i can tolerate him, i don't hate him the way i hate mr. Orange jumpsuit

6-Orochmaru kidnaps, tortures and kills little children for his pleasure. He forced hundreds of his own minions to fight each other to the death so he could see wich one was the strongest. He dreams only with increasing his own power and corrupting or killing all those around him. He tried to destroy his home village for fun. He respects no one, and he will do and sacrifice anything to achieve his objectives. How can you be more evil?

While he is my favorite character
1. he is badly written, i never feel like he is accully scary, i don't smpathize with him, and he is unbielivabel
2. on the other hand, our Genre savy villianess is more scary as she is more beliveable as well as being well written enough that i accully can understand her motives
3. In both shows, i want the villians to win. However their is an importance differences. I like Azula because she is well written and interesting, and i like the way she thinks, i root for Orochmaru because i think he deserves to win more because of the total useless of the main cast
from
EE

[Ozymandias]

Oh and Ozymandias, I order you to read Berserk, NOW.

Can do.

yet again, i'm going to assume that your being sarcastic again, but for the record, Nautro is horrible written, with bad charactization, uninteresting plots, illogical storyline, uninteresting conflicts and badly thought out cast, all of which Avatar has, dispite its flaws. I mean, i dislike Aang, but as i said before, i can tolerate him, i don't hate him the way i hate mr. Orange jumpsuit

Just because you don't like the series doesn't mean you have to be so negative all the time. You could say "I don't like this" instead of "This is horribly written garbage". Seriously. I mean, it's completely subjective, so you really needn't be so vehement.

[thorgrim29]

Can do.

Do it, NOW. I've read it 2 times to date, and it's made of pure awesome with a generous helping of badass. Pretty muck like Hellsing actually, though hellsing has a big advantage: the protagonist is the single most powerfull being in the world, ergo it evades the endless spiral of ever-increasing power most fighting manga go through. But Berserk is still awesome. And Naruto? Read it, watched the anime untill the filler of DOOM, and arrived to the conclusion that it started losing steam when Zabuza died, and is progressively being drained of its coolness.

[WarriorTribble]

While he is my favorite character
1. he is badly written, i never feel like he is accully scary, i don't smpathize with him, and he is unbielivabel
2. on the other hand, our Genre savy villianess is more scary as she is more beliveable as well as being well written enough that i accully can understand her motives
3. In both shows, i want the villians to win. However their is an importance differences. I like Azula because she is well written and interesting, and i like the way she thinks, i root for Orochmaru because i think he deserves to win more because of the total useless of the main cast

1. Strange, both Azula and Orochimaru are highly charismatic and skilled fighters who let nothing stop them from their goals, yet only one of them is unbelievable... I'd argue Azula is the less believable one after she managed to take over the Dai Li, overriding decades of hatred and nationalism. To be fair, Orochimaru did something similar when he became leader of the Sound Village, but that universe is known for it's political instability, and respect of power over most anything else (hence why the Leaf Village's notion of loyalty to one's group is considered novel and absurd).

2. Being genre savvy isn't that impressive actually. We're capable of it and so are the writers.

3. Why do you think the main cast of Naruto is useless? Well, except Sakura I know the why for her.

[Lizardfolk Lich]

The things I hate most about Naruto are the main character, and the fanboys. They get called Narutards for a reason...

[EvilElitest]

Just because you don't like the series doesn't mean you have to be so negative all the time. You could say "I don't like this" instead of "This is horribly written garbage". Seriously. I mean, it's completely subjective, so you really needn't be so vehement.

Really, that would be more warranted if i attacked the fans, or people who just like it, but in context, i like Avatar and hate Nautro because i only winch at the formers writing, while i actively gag at the latter. Quite honestly, i find the writing of Naurto horrible, just like a find the writing of Eragon horrible, and the movie 300 horrible. I don't think everyone who likes those things are awful tasteless people, nor that my option should prevent you from enjoying them, but i still stand by my option on the bad writing, i really just find it ungodly.

1. Strange, both Azula and Orochimaru are highly charismatic and skilled fighters who let nothing stop them from their goals, yet only one of them is unbelievable... I'd argue Azula is less believable one actually after she managed to take over the Dai Li, overriding decades of hatred and nationalism. To be fair, Orochimaru did something similar when he became leader of the Sound Village, but that universe is known for it's political instability, and respect of power over most anything else (hence why the Leaf Village's notion of loyalty to one's group is considered novel and absurd).

Azula is more believable, as i know people like her in real life. People like Orochimaru are just over the top in terms of evilness i don't feel at all scared as they never acknowledge that, the idea of a sicko like that existing is never really addressed, uninteresting. Azula is more believable as she is an egomaniacal sociopath with a god complex, but you can understand her. I can sympathize with that driving need for perfection and control, i can't really sympathize with snake man in any ways.
As for the coup, while i am not the most knowledgeable, but i think the take over of the Dai Li wouldn't be that hard as they aren't that nationalistic at all, just corrupt and power hungry, they want control of their nation and are willing to work with Azula to get it.

2. Being genre savvy isn't that impressive actually. We're capable of it and so are the writers.

Right, then why is everything in Naurto totally genre clueless

3. Why do you think the main cast of Naruto is useless? Well, except Sakura I know the why for her.

Other than Sakura being "generic useless female character" nautro is an emotionally crippled, hyper, annoying character with the intelligence of a suger high 8 year old. Lord Emo is just that, uninteresting, whiny, and foolish ineffective loner.
from
EE

[Alex Kidd]

One Piece is either a 5 or a 9. It's a 5 if you read it as a serious series, it's a 9 if you read it as a self parodying series

You seen the sub? It's really a lot better, I'd say it's a 8 just taken as is. Bleach would be a 7 and Naruto would be a 5. I also agree on your point with Bleach, it fails becuase there is no dramatic tension due to there being no threat of death(It's also completely breaking the suspension of disbelief, I mean what Nemu just survived in the manga...). And unlike One Piece where that kind of drama isn't important to the atmosphere, Bleach sets itself up as serious enough that it is needed.

yet again, i'm going to assume that your being sarcastic again, but for the record, Nautro is horrible written, with bad charactization, uninteresting plots, illogical storyline, uninteresting conflicts and badly thought out cast, all of which Avatar has, dispite its flaws. I mean, i dislike Aang, but as i said before, i can tolerate him, i don't hate him the way i hate mr. Orange jumpsuit

So you're saying Avatar has all the same problems as Naruto, or that Avatar doesn't have all the same problems as Naruto? Cause if it's the latter I agree. Except that I'd say mediocre is a better adjective for most of Naruto's problems, it's still watchable and most of the characters are initially interesting the later characterisation just fails utterly.

1. he is badly written, i never feel like he is accully scary, i don't smpathize with him, and he is unbielivabel
2. on the other hand, our Genre savy villianess is more scary as she is more beliveable as well as being well written enough that i accully can understand her motives
3. In both shows, i want the villians to win. However their is an importance differences. I like Azula because she is well written and interesting, and i like the way she thinks, i root for Orochmaru because i think he deserves to win more because of the total useless of the main cast
from
EE

Fully agree. Azula's one of the more realistic and interesting monsters on TV.

[WarriorTribble]

Azula is more believable, as i know people like her in real life. People like Orochimaru are just over the top in terms of evilness i don't feel at all scared as they never acknowledge that, the idea of a sicko like that existing is never really addressed, uninteresting. Azula is more believable as she is an egomaniacal sociopath with a god complex, but you can understand her. I can sympathize with that driving need for perfection and control, i can't really sympathize with snake man in any ways.
As for the coup, while i am not the most knowledgeable, but i think the take over of the Dai Li wouldn't be that hard as they aren't that nationalistic at all, just corrupt and power hungry, they want control of their nation and are willing to work with Azula to get it.

Fair enough, personally I find Azula to be a literal kiddie villian in a kiddie version of a world torn asunder. The Dai Li were unbelivable and I'm surprised you accepted their actions so easily. They're the force (or part of the force) that fought with the Fire Nation for decades, and have a fierce loyalty to the stability of their nation. It's downright impossible they'd accept a barbaric Fire Nationalist as their leader, especially with all the instability and fear it would cause. I'm somewhat tempted to think Nick did this since concepts like nationalism, and racism were considered too complex.

Right, then why is everything in Naurto totally genre clueless

They're not to the best of my knowledge. Please give some examples.

Other than Sakura being "generic useless female character" nautro is an emotionally crippled, hyper, annoying character with the intelligence of a suger high 8 year old. Lord Emo is just that, uninteresting, whiny, and foolish ineffective loner.

Well Sakura is useful now, but it's too little too late imo. Naruto (mostly) got over his emotional problems rather early in the series, and like many shounen protagonists, show brains under extreme pressure. Can't really defend Sasuke though, but "ineffecive"? Er... I'll just say he is highly effictive at what he does, and leave Princess Bride alone. In any case those three are far from the main cast.

Eh then again I'm the guy who doesn't like "The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya" just cause of the main characer.

[averagejoe]

Fair enough, personally I find Azula to be a literal kiddie villian in a kiddie version of a world torn asunder. The Dai Li were unbelivable and I'm surprised you accepted their actions so easily. They're the force (or part of the force) that fought with the Fire Nation for decades, and have a fierce loyalty to the stability of their nation. It's downright impossible they'd accept a barbaric Fire Nationalist as their leader, especially with all the instability and fear it would cause. I'm somewhat tempted to think Nick did this since concepts like nationalism, and racism were considered too complex.They're not to the best of my knowledge. Please give some examples.

You keep dwelling on this one point, but there's more to Azula than being able to inspire large amounts of unlikely loyalty. I mean, that was in just the one episode. Yes, it was unlikely, but it is arguably a flaw in the plot, or a flaw in the Dai Li, and not in the character of Azula herself.

Orochimaru, on the other hand, is constantly kicking the dog, raping the dog, and killing the dog's family in front of the dog. His evil is so over the top that it is very obvious that much of what he does is simply to make him seem more evil, and it becomes very hard to take him seriously after that, almost degenerating into narm much of the time. And he keeps doing it, over and over.

[EvilElitest]

Fair enough, personally I find Azula to be a literal kiddie villian in a kiddie version of a world torn asunder. The Dai Li were unbelivable and I'm surprised you accepted their actions so easily. They're the force (or part of the force) that fought with the Fire Nation for decades, and have a fierce loyalty to the stability of their nation. It's downright impossible they'd accept a barbaric Fire Nationalist as their leader, especially with all the instability and fear it would cause. I'm somewhat tempted to think Nick did this since concepts like nationalism, and racism were considered too complex.

1. Azula would be much better if Avatar was PG 13, but even so
2. The Dai Li weren't even fighting the fire nation. They only wanted their own power. It was like the USSR, it wasn't interested in the cause so much as its own power. Also they don't seem very racist, they just want power for themselves, and they don't have nationalism, that is why the main character don't like them, the don't care about the war, just preserving their own power

They're not to the best of my knowledge. Please give some examples.Well Sakura is useful now, but it's too little too late imo. Naruto (mostly) got over his emotional problems rather early in the series, and like many shounen protagonists, show brains under extreme pressure.

1. The fact they don't seem to live in their world so much as wander through it. The fact that they are gullible and simplistic? They don't adept very much throughout the story and still blunder through. Though to be fair, the world revolves around them, so they don't need to adept. Though if they were genre savvy, wouldn't one of them say
"wait, if we have computers, why do we fight with knives?"
2. According to my friends who still watch the show, he gets over his problems after the massive filler arch. Over 80 episodes. Yeah, ok early in the series?
3. Like most shounen protagonists, they are only as smart as the plot needs them to be, and nothing more. A sign of bad writing commonly.

Can't really defend Sasuke though, but "ineffecive"? Er... I'll just say he is highly effictive at what he does, and leave Princess Bride alone. In any case those three are far from the main cast.

Ineffective loner
What he is good at is pretending to be a bad ass anti hero
from
EE

[WarriorTribble]

You keep dwelling on this one point, but there's more to Azula than being able to inspire large amounts of unlikely loyalty. I mean, that was in just the one episode. Yes, it was unlikely, but it is arguably a flaw in the plot, or a flaw in the Dai Li, and not in the character of Azula herself.

Orochimaru, on the other hand, is constantly kicking the dog, raping the dog, and killing the dog's family in front of the dog. His evil is so over the top that it is very obvious that much of what he does is simply to make him seem more evil, and it becomes very hard to take him seriously after that, almost degenerating into narm much of the time. And he keeps doing it, over and over.

Yes, it's cause I've nothing bad to say about the character herself, just that she's essentially the one eyed person in a blind world. I did say I liked her.

You'll have to elaborate your point on Oro a bit I'm afraid. The way I see him while he's ruthless and does horrific things, he knows when to stop. For example; there's the scene where he gets hundreds of people to kill each other to find a new host body. After he finds a suitable candidate, he agrees to release the man's village as a final boon of shorts. You don't inspire love and loyalty via Xykon like actions after all...

[Gurumon]

The only thing about naruto that bugs me is the 5 minute staring competitions they have in the middle of the episodes. The anime is far too drawn out for my liking. I wish Berserk never got canceled, that anime was the best anime i've ever seen in my life.

[EvilElitest]

Yes, it's cause I've nothing bad to say about the character herself, just that she's essentially the one eyed person in a blind world. I did say I liked her.

You'll have to elaborate your point on Oro a bit I'm afraid. The way I see him while he's ruthless and does horrific things, he knows when to stop. For example; there's the scene where he gets hundreds of people to kill each other to find a new host body. After he finds a suitable candidate, he agrees to release the man's village as a final boon of shorts. You don't inspire love and loyalty via Xykon like actions after all...

his point was that in the writers attempt to make him evil, he has taken away every one of his human elements. And in doing so, the ability to sympathize with him. Azula is more scary because i know people like her exist, Oro just doesn't, his kinda of evil is so dark it is no longer scary
from
EE

[Nerd-o-rama]

It's true GL can be categorized as shounen (maybe shounen parody?), but imo the trait that makes it somewhat unique is the aforementioned concept of spiral energy. To the best of my knowledge Sailor Moon is the only other series to revolve around a similar concept with their wish fulfilling Silver Crystal.

Really, I'd file any kind of non-practical magic (things that are obviously "A Wizard Did It" without well-established rules and utility) under the same category. There's a number of stories where Willpower Makes It So, just not as obviously as in Gurren-Lagann (since Gurren-Lagann is just every Super Robot trope dialed up to 11 30): the majority of Disney films work like this on a less mature level, Neon Genesis Evangelion had all kinds of stuff happen just due to peoples' emotions (too bad they were all suicidal), hell, throw in anything that has magic happening Just Because instead of through intentional effort and classification by humans.

Anyway, all that argument aside, Spiral Energy's just a quirk of the plot, not a defining aspect of "what genre is it in", and certainly not "what demographic is it in", which is all I was talking about in the first place. I'm not saying Gurren-Lagann and Naruto are the same show. They're very different. About as different as, say, Naruto and Death Note. It's still a valid comparison, because they're marketed to the same people for the same reason.

[TheEmerged]

/humor on
Orochimaru exists in the real world. His name is Michael Jackson. There's a video out there (can't link, that whole "at work" thing) of him singing "Smooth Criminal".
/humor off

Whoever does the voice for him in the American version is soooooo channeling Deslok (of StarBlazers) it's not even funny.

======================

Speaking for myself, I got into Naruto at probably the only point in the series that would have resulted in my becoming a fan. The first episodes I saw were during the Forest test. The first episode I saw in its entirety was "Hinata Grows Bold". I started watching regularly right when the Pervy Sage joins the show. I didn't like the Wave Country arc, and feel that the series has gone downhill since the Chunin/Invasion arc.

I find that I'm a bigger fan of the manga than the anime these days. The pacing in the anime of late is horrible; it's a good thing Cartoon Network is double stacking the "Chasing Emoboy... er, Sasuke" episodes. I absolutely *loved* the Kakashi Gaiden story.

Also...

Spoiler

Show

I personally am glad we're finally learning bits and pieces about Naruto's Mom. And that the Foruth Hokage was Naruto's father has been so obvious from the beginning you had to be a contrarian to argue otherwise, IMO

[WarriorTribble]

1. Azula would be much better if Avatar was PG 13, but even so
2. The Dai Li weren't even fighting the fire nation. They only wanted their own power. It was like the USSR, it wasn't interested in the cause so much as its own power. Also they don't seem very racist, they just want power for themselves, and they don't have nationalism, that is why the main character don't like them, the don't care about the war, just preserving their own power

1. Totally agree.

2. Um... who do you think defended the city when Iroh placed the area in a seige for several months? There's also the drill situation, and the Fire Nation has admitted to trying to take the city for quite some time.

1. The fact they don't seem to live in their world so much as wander through it. The fact that they are gullible and simplistic? They don't adept very much throughout the story and still blunder through. Though to be fair, the world revolves around them, so they don't need to adept. Though if they were genre savvy, wouldn't one of them say
"wait, if we have computers, why do we fight with knives?"
2. According to my friends who still watch the show, he gets over his problems after the massive filler arch. Over 80 episodes. Yeah, ok early in the series?
3. Like most shounen protagonists, they are only as smart as the plot needs them to be, and nothing more. A sign of bad writing commonly.

1. Do you mean the characters don't have much effect on their world? How is this bad?

Please give examples of the characters doing something especially gullible.

Adapt to what exactly? There's the increase in physical power all shounen titles have, and so far there doesn't seem to be any real need for anything else. The series doesn't have computers... where'd you get that?

2. Well I don't watch the episodes so the 80 episodes, when was that the chase Sasuke arc, or the fillers before Shippūden? Anyways he lost his major neurosis of being a loner, and being afraid of fighting in the first few episode. What else is there?

3. There's a fine line between grace under pressure, and an idiot becoming a genius. So, what instance was this line crossed? From what I remember Naruto always used rather simplistic tactics, and his nine-tails trump card to win. Digging a hole to escape an attack in the Chunin exam arc for example.

[averagejoe]

Yes, it's cause I've nothing bad to say about the character herself, just that she's essentially the one eyed person in a blind world. I did say I liked her.

You'll have to elaborate your point on Oro a bit I'm afraid. The way I see him while he's ruthless and does horrific things, he knows when to stop. For example; there's the scene where he gets hundreds of people to kill each other to find a new host body. After he finds a suitable candidate, he agrees to release the man's village as a final boon of shorts. You don't inspire love and loyalty via Xykon like actions after all...

Your first point is fair. As for the second, I must confess that I haven't seen a lot of the series, but there's a difference between "knowing when to stop," and, "Taking excessive pleasure in excessive cruelty that in no way hurts you." He isn't stupid, he doesn't kill people just 'cause, no matter what the consequences, but they do put in an excessive amount of moments that are supposed to shock us with his evilness, was my point. It's even down to the smaller things, like how he always seems to hide out in spooky places, or how his minions all seem to be deformed in some way (with some exceptions.) Even many of his techniques are supposed to seem somewhat horrific, like pulling his face skin off. None of this stuff is that bad on its own, and some of it is even kind of cool, but it piles up until it's just like, "Okay, he's evil, we get it already."

[Gungnir]

I think everyone who is discussing Azula's evilness is overlooking one key factor: As a child, she threw rocks at baby turtleducks.

Also, Azula really is extremely limited by Nick as far as evilness goes. I would not be surprised to see her rip out her own father's heart and throw it at Zuzu just to cause mental illness, or to perhaps deny Aang the chance to take him down. Oh, and it being Azula, there would probably be about 10 other pluses to doing it, but we wouldn't find out about for several episodes.

[EvilElitest]

2. Um... who do you think defended the city when Iroh placed the place in a seige for several months? There's also the drill situation, and the Fire Nation has admitted to trying to take the city for quite some time.

But the secret agents were only defending their city to protect their power, not out of real hatred or nationalism. They care only about their own cause, not anybody else's

1. Do you mean the characters don't have much effect on their world? How is this bad?

Noe, they just seem to get by in blundering foward relying on the power of friendship and love.

Please give examples of the characters doing something especially gullible.

Your kidding me right?

Adapt to what exactly? There's the increase in physical power all shounen titles have, and so far there doesn't seem to be any real need for anything else. The series doesn't have computers... where'd you get that?

Well considering they spend so much time together, don't you think they'd think of a plan maybe? Or try to guess at their enemies' plans. Or really any sort of tatical mindset.
As for computors http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrGKN...eature=related
around 1:33

2. Well I don't watch the episodes so the 80 episodes, when was that the chase Sasuke arc, or the fillers before Shippūden? Either was he lost his major neurosis of being a loner, and being afraid of fighting in the first few episode. What else is there?

what?

3. There's a fine line between grace under pressure, and an idiot becoming a genius. So, what instance was this line crossed? From what I remember Naruto always used rather simplistic tactics, and his nine-tails trump card to win. Digging a hole to escape an attack in the Chunin exam arc for example.

1. That sort of simplistic tatics is what made him a boring character
2. Naruto wins, well, because he is naurto. Not because he is good or deserves it, he just wins because otherwise their would be no plot.
from
EE