Second Countdown to the Realms article up at Wizard's

[CASTLEMIKE]

The first article was pretty popular so here's the second:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20080130a

[Dizlag]

We ninja'd each other!

This article makes me want to look at running a campaign in the Forgotten Realms again.

Dizlag

[Newtkeeper]

Well, it feels like a very promising campaign setting. I just hope that, by the end of this "Time of Troubles Mk II", it still feels like the Realms.

[Saph]

Have to say, I'm not very impressed. The whole catastrophe seems to have been done with no purpose other than to bring FR in line with the new 4E class and spellcasting system. And reading the article, I still don't have a clue what the Spellplague actually is.

It feels painfully obvious that the crunch was written first, and fluff justifications were added on afterwards.

Eh. I'll wait and see, but for the moment I think I'm probably going to stick with FR 3.5.

- Saph

[Fax Celestis]

Two things:

First, I like this a lot. I love torn worlds, and this is no exception.

Second (and this could just be my wishful thinking): does anyone else think that the Spellscarred paragraph sounds like it could have come directly out of Magic of Incarnum?

[Dizlag]

I haven't read Magic of Incarnum, but I have played in the Eberron world. Over on the EN World thread for this article, it was mentioned a couple times that the Spellscarred seem an awful like Abberant Dragonmarks. I can see the similarity, but the actual mechanics of them are yet to be seen.

Dizlag

[Rachel Lorelei]

It feels painfully obvious that the crunch was written first, and fluff justifications were added on afterwards.

There really isn't any other way to make good, unified crunch.

[Rutee]

It feels painfully obvious that the crunch was written first, and fluff justifications were added on afterwards.

Well, yeah, they were. DnD is still setting neutral (I hope and pray), so it makes sense to write the crunch first. I don't think ti's the only way of doing things in general, but it's the only solution /here/

[Saph]

There really isn't any other way to make good, unified crunch.

There's more to a game than crunch. People who like FR generally like it for the fluff, and in this case the fluff changes feel fairly haphazard to me.

It's still early days, but so far I can't see much reason to use the new FR over the old version.

- Saph

[Fax Celestis]

There's more to a game than crunch. People who like FR generally like it for the fluff, and in this case the fluff changes feel fairly haphazard to me.

It's still early days, but so far I can't see much reason to use the new FR over the old version.

- Saph

There never will be any more reason to use the new over the old than to use the old over the new.

[Neo]

yeah, especially if it reads like a fanfic gone awry.

Never read up on dragonmarks, but spellscars just conjure up images of anime to me.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Still setting on the fence since I thought the 4E FRCS setting jump should have been several or more centuries akin to the end of the dark ages but going to need new maps. Didn't like Maztica getting destroyed with several other unknown lands on the Toril world map on page 231 of FRCS must have had lots of scrolls like Halruaa although it seems odd a metropolis like Waterdeep was unscathed.

I thought clarifying having the spell plague affect most of Toril was interesting since it could eventually result in other settings like Shou and Zakhara getting incorporated into the 4E FRCS (Although I won't hold my breath):

This theory holds that the world’s magic was held so long in Mystra’s Weave that when the Weave lost its weaver, magic spontaneously and ruinously burst its bonds. Areas of wild magic, already outside the constraints of the Weave, touched off first when their boundaries misted suddenly away. But eventually, few parts of Toril and the planes beyond were unaffected.

Effects on the Landscape
Where magic was completely loosed, the Spellplague ate through stone and earth as readily as bone and spell. Broad portions of Faerûn’s surface collapsed into the Underdark, partially draining the Sea of Fallen Stars into the Glimmer Sea far below (and leaving behind a continent-sized pit called the Underchasm). The event splintered several of the Old Empires south of the drained sea into a wildscape of towering mesas, bottomless ravines, and cloud-scraping spires (further erasing evidence of the lands and kingdoms once situated there). Historical lands most changed by the Spellplague include Mulhorand, Unther, Chondath, and portions of Aglarond, the Sea of Fallen Stars, and the Shaar. What was once called Halruaa detonated and was destroyed when every inscribed and prepared spell in the nation went off simultaneously. This explosion was partly to blame for destroying the land bridge between Chult and the Shining South—only a scattered archipelago remains.

[Tren]

Hmm, the cosmology is in upheaval and magic has to be relearned? I think I liked it better when it was Dragonlance

That said the world sounds interesting, it just seems really stupid and contrived to force FR's cosmology to change to mirror core. I'm not even a big fan of FR, but it seems pointless to change one of the nice idiosyncracies of the setting. The only reason I can see them justifying this is if they feel things like the Shadowfell and the Feywild are too important to the core mechanics to do without: I don't think they are. There's obviously already fey creatures and necromantic energy in FR prior to 4E; I don't see why those couldn't be the basis for Fey Pacts and the slightly tweaked nature of Undead.

[Rutee]

There's more to a game than crunch. People who like FR generally like it for the fluff, and in this case the fluff changes feel fairly haphazard to me.

It's still early days, but so far I can't see much reason to use the new FR over the old version.

- Saph

The big problem with this thinking is that it presupposes that DnD is made for the Forgotten Realms, rather then the other way around.

[Theli]

Never read up on dragonmarks, but spellscars just conjure up images of anime to me.

Explain. Now.

[Saph]

The big problem with this thinking is that it presupposes that DnD is made for the Forgotten Realms, rather then the other way around.

What a bizarre conclusion. I've no idea how you managed to reach it.

I'm not talking about D&D 4E in general, I'm talking about the Forgotten Realms fluff changes specifically. In which, case, yes, those changes are made for the Forgotten Realms.

- Saph

[Rutee]

I'm not talking about D&D 4E in general, I'm talking about the Forgotten Realms fluff changes specifically. In which, case, yes, those changes are made for the Forgotten Realms.

- Saph

Now, wait am I confused, or did the Forgotten Realms fluff change to match 4e core crunch? Because if they made brand new crunch for the FR, then changed the fluff to match the FR Specific crunch, that could be much worse.

[horseboy]

Now, wait am I confused, or did the Forgotten Realms fluff change to match 4e core crunch? Because if they made brand new crunch for the FR, then changed the fluff to match the FR Specific crunch, that could be much worse.

Looks like they compounded it. In addition to all the other changes they'd been talking about, they added more crunch to "smooth over" the fluff changes. Like those Blood Charms Spellscars.

[SimperingToad]

Ya know, something about this sentence sends alert bells off:

"...magic is more abundant than ever, manifesting not only as inexplicable changes to the landscape, items, and creatures, but even in some of the most fantastic exploits of fighters, rouges, rangers, and other heroes. Magic truly does permeate all things."

So, are we to assume that all classes have or can gain magical abilities of some sort (innate or spell-like if not actual spell use)? And how does this mirror the new Core rules? Will a Core fighter be able to do 'magical' stuff?

Also as a side-note: even WoTC staffers have problems telling a rogue from a rouge.

Regards,
theToad

[Starbuck_II]

Ya know, something about this sentence sends alert bells off:

"...magic is more abundant than ever, manifesting not only as inexplicable changes to the landscape, items, and creatures, but even in some of the most fantastic exploits of fighters, rouges, rangers, and other heroes. Magic truly does permeate all things."

So, are we to assume that all classes have or can gain magical abilities of some sort (innate or spell-like if not actual spell use)? And how does this mirror the new Core rules? Will a Core fighter be able to do 'magical' stuff?

Also as a side-note: even WoTC staffers have problems telling a rogue from a rouge.

Regards,
theToad

I think extraordinary is the new magic. Evasion example: you can survive a bomb the size of a city standing right beside it.

[Orzel]

I think extraordinary is the new magic. Evasion example: you can survive a bomb the size of a city standing right beside it.

Crouching under the radiation is magic?


I think they're going the "magic is easily to learn/get" route in 4e. Before you had to take levels in a class to get their magic. In 4e, you can dabble and do something without throwing your weapon skill in with your whites. Now Joe can teach John a spell or two while in camp since "Mystra ain't holding you back with her rules and laws."

[SimperingToad]

Ugh. Crouching Fighter, Hidden Wizard.

Doesn't smell like dabbling to me, though. Sounds more like it's built in to the class. Has any of that shown up in the pre-releases?

Regards,
theToad

[Fax Celestis]

Doesn't smell like dabbling to me, though. Sounds more like it's built in to the class. Has any of that shown up in the pre-releases?

Nope. The prereleases are startlingly mechanics-free.

[horseboy]

Ugh. Crouching Fighter, Hidden Wizard.

Doesn't smell like dabbling to me, though. Sounds more like it's built in to the class. Has any of that shown up in the pre-releases?

Regards,
theToad

*Sniff, Sniff* Smells like disciplines. Mmmmmmm.

[Orzel]

Ugh. Crouching Fighter, Hidden Wizard.

Doesn't smell like dabbling to me, though. Sounds more like it's built in to the class. Has any of that shown up in the pre-releases?

Regards,
theToad

With this Class training feat talk, spells and weapons might use the same base attack rumor, and the multiple kind of magic available; it seems a fighter or rogue could learn how to shoot fireballs, sneeze force missiles, summon tree monsters, heal, and fly without touching the wizard class. He'll just suck at it.

[horseboy]

With this Class training feat talk, spells and weapons might use the same base attack rumor, and the multiple kind of magic available; it seems a fighter or rogue could learn how to shoot fireballs, sneeze force missiles, summon tree monsters, heal, and fly without touching the wizard class. He'll just suck at it.

Nah, more than likely he'll have his own type of magic, which would probaly include things like/ but not limited to *alt tabs over to Playerscompendium.pdf* Recovery tests based off of their Toughness Constitution stat that can heal themselves of damage so many times per day; Avoid Blow, where they can dodge an attack aimed at them; Tiger Spring, adding your level to your initiative; Lizard Leap, jumping real high; Downward strike, coming down on your enemy to do more damage; Gliding Stride, something kinda like levitation, but with some horizontal movement; Life Check, so if they're dead, they can immediately use one of their recovery checks to keep from dying; Earthskin, oh yeah useful, turn your skin rock hard and give yourself an armour bonus equal to your level; Spirit strike, the ability to hit ethereal creatures. And that's just what would seem useful for most D&D games. I can't wait to see how WotC screws it up.

[SimperingToad]

With this Class training feat talk, spells and weapons might use the same base attack rumor, and the multiple kind of magic available; it seems a fighter or rogue could learn how to shoot fireballs, sneeze force missiles, summon tree monsters, heal, and fly without touching the wizard class. He'll just suck at it.

Sheesh. "Wizards of the Coast. We put a little Wizard in everything..."

Sounds wrong on so many levels.

Hmmm... a method to deal with multi-classing, perhaps? Maybe we're just talking the possibility of magic use. The New Realms magic has become 'the force'. Everyone has it, few can truly utilize it.

Nope. The prereleases are startlingly mechanics-free.

Not surprising actually. I'm sure they are going to dump quite a bit, and revise and add until the release date. No one wants to hear the screams of, "AW! You promised!" from the masses.

Regards,
theToad

[The Professor]

I dislike that they continue to beat around the bush on the Spellplague thing. So far it seems like pure chaos from concentrate from what they've told me. That's not much.

I just don't like how they're doing this; changing a setting around to fit the new mechanics.

[SimperingToad]

I dislike that they continue to beat around the bush on the Spellplague thing. So far it seems like pure chaos from concentrate from what they've told me. That's not much.

I just don't like how they're doing this; changing a setting around to fit the new mechanics.

Unfortunately, the reverse would be worse: fixing the mechanics around the setting. We would need one set of rules for FR, one set for Eberron, one for etc. etc. Jumping from game world to game world could potentially be hazardous to one's cerebral cortex. This way does avoid the problem of, "Oh! Everyone suddenly forgets what he once knew overnight and awakens envigorated with new abilities." A cheap fix, but probably the better option. It does smack of a serious rewrite of rules. I recall someone saying that it would be to 3E what 2E was to 1E. Looks like 1000 miles close to that mark...

Regards,
theToad

[CASTLEMIKE]

Excerpt from the Worlds and Monsters:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20080125a

What “World” Meant to the World Team
—Matthew Sernett
To the World design team, the “world” of the DUNGEONS &DRAGONS game doesn’t refer to a specific setting, such as EBERRON, nor does it refer to a particular planet, such as Toril. For our purposes, the concept encompasses a huge set of shared assumptions for play that Dungeon Masters use when designing adventures or a campaign. The world of D&D is, in business terms, its product identity—how people perceive the game distinguishes it from other fantasythemed hobbies.

The decision to focus on D&D as a product wasn’t made lightly. We had to agree on what that entailed, and what basic assumptions should or should ot be altered. For example, dictating that only elves could become vampires could be a jarring change to players’ expectations. It might be a fine decision for an individual campaign, but it’s not something we’d want to impose on the general D&D audience.

Many times throughout the design process we discussed a “core world” for D&D, a default setting much as the world of GREYHAWK was used for the 3rd Edition rules. Very early on, we seriously considered the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting for this role. In the end, though, we realized that any choice of an existing setting would alienate some of the audience, and all carried years of history, some of which conflicted with how we wanted to improve and change D&D’s identity.

We ultimately decided that D&D’s world doesn’t require a named, well-defined planet to come alive in the minds of its players. We want players like you to use the elements of D&D’s product identity to create your own world, crafting your own characters and stories that explore it. That’s the advantage that DUNGEONS & DRAGONS has over every other game out there, and we do not intend to squander such a treasure.