[Magic System Replacement] The Paradigm Project (VERY much in progress)

[FireSpark]

THANK YOU!

This project /will/ get rolling again!

Also, wouldja mind taking a look at the Angel of Death PrC? If you act quickly, it'll still be on the front page (only other thread made by me that is).

Of course. I love poking holes in critiquing others hard work.

But I appear to be having trouble finding it. Any chance you could provide a link?

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Here you go.

[Lord_Gareth]

I'm thinking that it'll be similar to designing a ritual, actually - something you use set "seeds" for. The Blueprints themselves have limits, and supertechnology can't break those, but there should definitely be space for "WHAT HAS SCIENCE DOOOOONE?" here.

For example - the Weaponry blueprint deals in explosives, "mundane" weaponry, weaponmaking techniques, and weapon modification. It creates guns.

Mad Science, on the other hand, runs the gamut from disintegration rays to half-mechanical, half-flesh monstrosities.

See Girl Genius Online for TONS of inspiration ^_^

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Hmmm...well, in that case, I think you probably need a list of effects. A fairly comprehensive list.

That's gonna be irritating to do...

[FireSpark]

By the gods, what have I done?

Okay, so maybe my estimates of working up a summary-type-thing in a single weekend were a bit, uniformed.

After gathering together everything I suppose to be pertinent (excluding the two entirely seperate threads created by DiT), I have gathered over 30+ pages of raw data. 0_o!!

This may take a little more time to format than I had originally planned.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Heh...sorry about that. The Ritualist alone (if included) counts for about...oh...14 of those.

[Moff Chumley]

Wow. This is AWSOME. Great job, Gareth and Djinn (I haven't seen you in ages). I am not at all good with crunch, but I am good at bizarre ideas and fluff. Heres an idea I've been toying with for a while: The Imaginer.

The Imaginer
How do you know there's no rhinoceros in the room? Of course there is, and I can prove it. *Rhino appears*[/I] What do you mean, thats impossible? Wait, what rhinoceros?[/I]
Magic stems from will. In almost all cases, this will is channeled through the mind. However, some strong willed individuals who have received some kind of trauma, or other mind shattering or life altering event cast spells not from their mind, but from their imagination. From the traumatic event in their past, there bonds to reality are weakened. Their mind is dominated by their imagination, and within their mind, the only truth is what they envision. As their will grows, and as they learn the art, the are capable of manifesting their will in the material world. If an Imaginer believes that he is holding a fireball, who's to say that he isn't? If an Imaginer denies that he's been stabbed through the heart, what's to stop his body from believing him? The only thing that can stop an Imaginer from manifesting his will unto the world is his belief in himself. Or his sanity.

Please feel free to embellish, criticize, or otherwise improve. I am glad to be a part of this project.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Hmmm...since that has the potential to be quite powerful, it would probably be best at conjuration and illusions, since it could otherwise do almost everything.

An interesting concept though, and one that would be a lot of fun to work with.

[Moff Chumley]

It really kind of got away from me. Originally, I had planned it to be a mage that deluded himself into thinking that whatever he's doing is possible, but it mutated as I wrote and revised. The way I imagine the class working is that the character has a limited amount of "delusion points" that fluctuate based on certain factors, and whenever he casts a spell, he must check against the Delusion DC or risk losing magical ability for a while. Obviously very imperfect, but it's a start.

[Lord_Gareth]

It's too pure.

Allow me to explain. The Paradigms are very similar to those from Mage: The Ascension. The power comes from this aboslute belief in something. A mage can't exist without being totally and completely aware of themselves because they know something that no one else does. Their minds simply aren't strong enough to handle the knowledge that it's THEM doing this and not the object of their obsession (that's for an epic level PrC). The Delusionist you just described isn't possible because it's too pure. It's absolute, raw belief, and the 1-20 power scale just isn't ready for that.

However, a Mind-based fastcaster /would/ be nice...

[tarkisflux]

Finished reading through the mountains of work you've already put into this (which I imagine will be a lovely continental mountain range when it gets completed), and I like what you're doing with it.

Had a thought about your Technomancer problem, but I wanted to see if it's even relevant first... and just in case it needs to be said, feel free to ignore/disregard/mock any of my suggestions.

It looks like you're trying to make a class that crafts it's magical abilities, using science and whatnot to augment the magical force that they're (unknowingly) pouring into their creations. If that's true and you're really stuck, might want to take a look at the Gnomish Artificer PrC in Magic of Faerun (nothing to do with Eberron's Artificer). It won't work at all as written, but it does deal with non-magical magical items that require recharging, and it does so in a way that made sense to me back when I read it. The device powers the class got might also make sense as starting points for device seeds for the tech classes. Or it could be a big waste of your time, cause nothing's easy when you're reworking magic

(Full disclosure: a pc in one of my games took that class a while back, and subsequently made a featherfall cape (neck/belt slots) that choked you a bit while it was in use, joybuzzer gauntlets, and eventually lightning bolt firing rods attached to a backpack {he liked Ghostbusters} for everyone in the party. Point is, my memory of it might be a bit rosier than the reality )

But even if that's not what you're going for, I think GIT's right and you might be best served by listing abilities out, or at least listing generic seeds for them and filing the various levels later. Your longsword example looks like a good example of a final item, but starting with a list of those would kill the openness foster creativity of the class.

To me, it sounds like a group of classes that would be well served with bludgeoning, piercing, or force direct damage effects, direct transmutations, maybe some personal conjurations like teleport, some aoe sonic or elemental stuff (burst explosions, line electricity, spray/cones of acid, etc), and the ability to tie them all together into something monstrous. As long as the seed levels are fairly constant, adding up the levels of seed stuff going into an item should provide a fair idea of the power of the item, it's subsequent cost, and an easy way to cap creations.

Example: Explosion I does 2d6 fire/bludgeoning damage in a 10' radius; Delay I makes any effect happen the round after it was triggered; Hurl Object I makes launches something a predetermined range. So, using a "Hurl Object" seed, "Delay" seed, and an "Explosion" seed, you could make a mortar that fired grenades into combat indirectly and exploded at the start of next round. If you are making them craft this, add in the 3 lvl 1 seeds and you have a lvl 3 device that costs whatever that costs, and is hopefully balanced against every other level 3 device they could make. Or make them craft the ammunition (a lvl 2 device) seperately from the firing mechanism (a lvl 1). If you wanted to restrict access to stuff, giving seeds the tech levels you mentioned works well. Not sure where power sources fits into a picture like this though...

As to balance, the nice thing about craft classes is that they can't make what they can't afford in time or gold. The big things that they do make are all limited resources, and in making them they take time away from making a larger number of less powerful devices that would give them more uses. Since you said you wanted them to hit hard and less often, I think that's about right in line.

Of course, if you're not actually thinking of a craft class, this is all moot.

[Moff Chumley]

It's too pure.

Allow me to explain. The Paradigms are very similar to those from Mage: The Ascension. The power comes from this aboslute belief in something. A mage can't exist without being totally and completely aware of themselves because they know something that no one else does. Their minds simply aren't strong enough to handle the knowledge that it's THEM doing this and not the object of their obsession (that's for an epic level PrC). The Delusionist you just described isn't possible because it's too pure. It's absolute, raw belief, and the 1-20 power scale just isn't ready for that.

However, a Mind-based fastcaster /would/ be nice...

Alright. With that in mind, perhaps have them not be aware of what they're doing? Or possibly have them be a weaker version of some martial class that once in a while use some odd, reality bending ability. Any fluffy changes you can think of in this direction might be a good substitute if any of your subsequent ideas don't work?

[Lord_Gareth]

@Tarkis - Yeah, they're crafters, to the point where I'm going to write up the stats for using a wrench as a weapon. Any ideas on that line are TOTALLY welcome ^_^

@Moff - I'll suggest some alterations later.

Now, to school!

[Lord_Gareth]

Actually, what you want, Moff, is for them to know exactly what they're doing.

Channelers, if you remember, use their power spontaenously. Their belief in something is directed, or channeled, through something quick-and-dirty that gets them results right damn now. So, what I'm thinking for your idea would be a Chaneler subparadigm like this -

Grayminds
"You think, therefore I am."

It's all fake. You know it, your friend knows it, and even the beasts know it. The reality in front of your eyes is no more or less real than the phantasmal threads of dreaming or the fleeting touch of hope. The multiverse is a projection of sentient thought - and the Grayminds know it.

Grayminds believe with a terrifying intensity that everything you see, hear, touch, taste, smell, and feel is a projection of your own mind, and they prove it by warping perceptions around them. Illusionists without peer and mind benders extraordinaire, Grayminds seek to free people of their preconcived notions of "real" and unreal.

At their best, Grayminds can enlighten people, allowing them to think about the true nature of "real" and their own existence. Their paradigm of conceptual reality often encourages cooperation and kindness for a better "real" than the one that the Graymind lives in. At their worst, Grayminds are horrid monstrosities, capable of shattering minds and leaving behind entire regions so thickly coated in illusion and misperception that they become uninhabitable to intelligent life.

In the cracks of the mind, the Grayminds wait, with wonders such as you could never imagine - and horrors, as well.

[Nonanonymous]

As for the technomancers, a few things that might serve as seeds to begin with are:
Simple/direct weapons: Things that work like basically everything else in the weapons categories of equipment lists in books, some with energy damage, and some with special status inflicting abilities, others with nothing more than shoving pointy objects at people.
Spray guns: Things that squirt cones of acid damage, contact poisons, and even healing salves.
Constructs/steam-powered mecha: Basically just constructs that can have any of the other inventions attached if you've already built the other items, as well as a 'cockpit' area to let you control it directly and use it like a mount.
Bombs/rockets: Imitation fireballs, probably with variable energy damages.
Status effect guns: Reduce person guns, anyone?

A few other things I thought of were things that acted like dominate person, view thoughts, and darkvision that had to be worn to get any effects from them.

I can see why you're in a snag about this, where to begin as far as how these should cost and be written rules-wise is really difficult.

EDIT: Hmm, I guess those things were all covered by blueprints weren't they?

Another EDIT: D20 Past has a Scientist advanced class that's somewhat similar, they make a certain number of 'discoveries' from one level to the next, which duplicate spell effects of various kinds. They have an XP cost of (discovery level x scientist level x 30) and spend (discovery level x scientist level x 5) days to create the item to use it. It doesn't really have anything relevant to the actual cost needed to make an item though.

[tarkisflux]

Been staring at the subpardigms for the technomancer on and off for the last week, specifically the blueprint parts, and I think they're unreasonably seperated. It strikes me as an artificial barrier that's going to limit/eliminate any interesting cross-over devices and cause the designers (us) to do a LOT more work to make the various options feel fully fleshed out.

So I suggest making them more like specialist wizards than seperate classes. In long, I suggest the following

Spoiler

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Boost skill points to 4 + int
Add Disable Device to their class list {This is really a personal preference, but it seems fitting and they can handle it with more skill points. Open lock seems like a stretch though; also note that it won't put the thief out of a job since they don't get the trapfinding class ability}
Remove Craft (Technological Device) {To allow cross subparadigm dipping while retaining primary focus, this needs to be split up into a skill for each sub-para... hopefully this makes more sense in a second...}
Add Craft (Combustion Device) to the Black Powder Master class list
Add Craft (Electrical Device) to the Madboy class list
Add Craft (Cosmic Device) to the Ethernaught class list

Don't give them free ranks in anything anymore, the bonus skill points will take care of that and allow them to keep their skills up.

Just like with Alchemy, require anyone who takes ranks in one of those Craft skills to have at least one level of technomancer. That'll keep the uninitiated out of the field. If you require each blueprint group to require one of the craft skills above, you're not going to see lots of abuse on that, and it opens up lots of inceresting crafting options...

Which brings me to blueprints. Give each subparadigm a set of 3 primary blueprint groups like we have now, but also give them one from each of the other sub-paras and allow them to research new blueprints from them (never gained for free or at level up). Maybe create a feat that allows them access to another group.

What we've got now is a system that does sort of damage the distinct flavor of each subgroup in terms of craftables (not substantially I'd argue, but it's still there), without touching the flavor still retained in their subpara abilities (which I think also need tweaking, but one thing at a time...). You can add in effects from outside your focus, but the mods to the skills you need to do it won't be great except at high levels (where it shouldn't matter much). Et voila, expanded crafting horrizon without sacrificing much flavor. This setup sort of benefits the Madboy, since their int bonus will allow them to keep up with 3 craft skills more easily, but that seems rather in line with my image of the madboy.

As to the Blueprint groups, I wanted to define them a little more clearly, since I can't find that anywhere else...

Spoiler

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Blueprints:
Explosives (Pri: Black Powder Master): The explosives group of blueprints deals primarily with explosions. Big, small, firey, concussive, and occasionally even sticky or smelly burst effects are contained herein. Creating devices from blueprints in the explosives group requires Craft (Combustion Device) checks.

Clank (Pri: Madboy): The clank group of blueprints holds wonderful designs and additions for a Madboy's best friend. Creating devices from blueprints in the clank group requires Craft (Electrical Device) checks. {I think the Clank is intended to be like a familiar or an eberron artificer's homonculus, but I'm unsure, hence the fuzziness here}

Mad Science (Pri: Madboy): The mad science group of blueprints is often associated with maniacal laughter. Among those who actually utilize these blueprints, it is associated with effects that turn things into rather different things, alter the minds of the living, animate the dead, and create other interesting effects. Creating devices from blueprints in the mad science group requires Craft (Electrical Device) checks. {This category probably needs to be toned down a bit, cause it's a big undefined catchall for everything that doesn't nicely fit in the others. That might be intentional, but a bit of clarification/critique would be helpful}

Mechanical Walkers (Pri: Black Powder Master): The mechanical walker group of blueprints are intended for the Technomancer on the go (or under military contract). The blueprints here show how to create mecahnical devices to carry your supplies, your larger weapons, or even yourself. Creating devices from blueprints in the mechanical walkers group requires Craft (Combustion Device) checks.

Portal (Pri: Ethernaught): The portal group of blueprints are intended for those who wish to visit strange and exotic locales, even those that aren't on the same world. Devices in this category generally transport someone or something from one point to another, though they can also be used to call aid from afar. Creating devices from blueprints in the mechanical walkers group requires Craft (Cosmic Device) checks.

Projection (Pri: Ethernaught): The blueprints in the projection group deal with invisible force effects. Created by utilizing planar energies, these effects can insulate a user from physical harm, protect from heat or other energy, or be sent forth to pierce enemies. Creating a device using blueprints from the projection group requires Craft (Cosmic Device) checks. {Formerly Protection, hope it's clear why I renamed it.}

Steampunk (Pri: Madboy): The steampunk set of blueprints concern themselves with the taming of lightning. Devices in this group utilize lightning to hurl at enemies, or as power for a more arcane purpose. Creating a device using blueprints from the steampunk group requires Craft (Electrical Device) checks.

Warp (Pri: Ethernaught): The warp group of blueprints show how to create devices that warp the rules or reality. Poisonous substances or undead creatures in a radius might start to radiate light, a persons eyes might attune themselves to darkness, time might run faster or slower, even gravity could be redirected with help from these blueprints. Crafting a device using blueprints from the warp group requires Craft (Cosmic Device) checks. {Sorta extended the warp group so it wouldn't tread on the portal group}

Weaponry (Pri: Black Powder Master): The weaponry group of blueprints contains a wide assortment of impliments of personal destruction, for your enemies at any rate. Generally propelled objects, this group includes a wide assortment of firearms, mortars, and more exotic devices for hurling death at those who oppose you from a safe distance. Creating devices from blueprints in the weaponry group requires Craft (Combustion Device) checks.

I've got some ideas on how to do Craft (Tech Stuff) in general, I'll toss them up later. Enough typing for now...

[Moff Chumley]

Lord Gareth, that's perfect. Much more refined than my idea, but where did the name come from? And if you can point me in the right direction, I can probably do a bit of homebrew.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Just for the record, I haven't given up on the Ritualist (despite the G6 project I've got underway). It's just that I still haven't found a good system to balance ritual creation. As soon as I've found one, things will start to appear.

[Lord_Gareth]

Tarkis, I love you and want you for my 'netwife.

(Kidding - my girlfriend would kill me anyway).

Seriously, though, that idea works for the Subparadigms, which are likely going to be picked up and edited by someone eventually. My first drafts tend to be full of great ideas that are cripplingly flawed.

@Moff - If the entire world is fake, good and evil don't exist, just shades of gray. Hence, Grayminds.

[Nonanonymous]

So, which blueprints and sub-paradigms would work best for unleashing this on a fantasy setting?


And as much as I like your ideas Tarkis, I'm seeing the specification of everything being either based on combustion, electricity, or cosmic powers a bit lacking, it needs something in the way of hydraulics, methinks.

[tarkisflux]

Those would be some combination of Mechanized Walker and Weapon blueprints. On top of creating them, you'd need to pay for fuel and ammunition and all that other fun stuff. It'd be expensive, but so completely worth it to siege a castle all by yourself.

And as much as I like your ideas Tarkis, I'm seeing the specification of everything being either based on combustion, electricity, or cosmic powers a bit lacking, it needs something in the way of hydraulics, methinks.

Yeah, I thought the same thing when I was writing it up before. I decided against it for a couple reasons:

1) I sorta rolled everything that they needed into the craft skills, then gave them names that represented the power sources they'd be using for most of their devices. I suppose I could have been less specific and used Craft (Ethernaught Device), but I didn't like the feel of it. It might be a good idea to rename them though, because the skills really do embody a lot.

I don't imagine that the Weapons group of blueprints and the Craft (Combustion Device) skill makes a BPMaster a very competant metalsmith and wood worker. But it does give them the ability to construct guns, ones that don't foul every time they're fired because the barrel isn't perfect and whose grips/stocks don't break/splinter under the recoil stress. I figure they just know what they need, and they have the materials made to their specifications by someone who knows how to make those things, just like a normal crafter mage goes out and buys all of his components. If the skill does allow them to craft these things, so much the better, but it doesn't need to. It just needs to allow them to source parts and put them together properly.

2) I can really only see the Mech Walker group needing it, though maybe Clank and Mad Science would use it to. It's an entirely seperate skill that would only be useful for maybe three groups. They already have to invest skill points in one skill, and have to invest points in others if they want to make cross paradigm devices (like an intelligent version of your pics by mixing in Clank). I thought it unreasonable to add yet another skill for them that would only be necessary for some of their work. Plus, the Ethernauts would get a clear advantage in that case, since none of their primaries need it.

I guess we could do a seperate skill for each blueprint group (which I did not consider when I thought up the changes), but they'd need 2 more skill points per level to keep up and things might get a bit obnoxious. It would severely limit cross subpara work though, and might differentiate characters in the same subparadigm a bit more... it's something to think about anyway...

[tarkisflux]

^Bump^

This had fallen to page 3, and that's not cool .

So no thoughts on separate craft skills for the different blueprint groups? Anyone?

I've done some more work to clean up the technomancer's sub para abilities and have some examples for the craft(tech stuff) mechanics, but I got distracted by 4E 'review' copies and Paizo's Pathfinder RPG. I'll get it up in the next few days,[crossfingers] I promise [/crossfingers].

[Lord_Gareth]

I think that the Black Powder Master's craft skill can be summed up by Craft (Heavy Weaponry), which covers the walkers, the guns, and the big, big booms.

I think we'll have more suggestions and ideas once your fix is up ^_^

Is anyone else disturbed that whatever I put up needs to be cleaned up and redone by someone else?

[Lord_Gareth]

Bump ^_^

And someone unstreatch my page!

[Lord_Gareth]

I'm here to announce that I'm more or less retreating from the GitP forums. However, this project, contrary to any evidence, isn't dead - it's just been moved to here, on Plothook.net. Look me up as DM Prince of Knives!

[thevorpalbunny]

I might have to sign up for those forums so I can contribute. . .

But what's wrong with these forums, anyway?

[Lord_Gareth]

Nothing, actually, but Plothook has greater coding utility, a larger community, and I've become a firmly entrenched member of said community. GitP's base tends to be...infrequent, at best, and necroing threads here is rather difficult; doing so is unnecessary on Plothook.