Arena Tournament, Round 38: Mike C Hammer vs. Chile V

[Kyeudo]

GM Kyeudo

Mavian raises a good point. Either we consider the DFA's breath weapon to have a recharge time or we don't. I'm going to suspend my previous ruling for the moment and get some other refs in here for a consult. I think I may be somewhat biased towards the combo.

[chilepepper]

I don't see why there's such a big deal about making me wait 1 round to use it again. It really seems like you're overcomplicating it by saying since there isn't a recharge time so you can't add a round to it. If you really want to argue that "since there is no recharge time, you can't add a round to it" that still doesn't stop me from using it on a DFA breath.

This feat only works on a breath weapon that has instantaneous
duration and that deals some kind of damage, such
as energy damage (acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic), ability
damage, or negative levels.

Check

When you use this feat, add +1 to the number of rounds
you must wait before using your breath weapon again.

It doesn't say, "to use this feat, you must add +1 to the recharge time." That would keep me from using it if the above arguement is true. Instead it says 'when you use it.' Adding a round is a result of the feat being used, not a condition that must be met to use the feat. Okay, you win the arguement, you can't add +1 to nothing, I now get to use the metabreath on my DFA breath for free, every round.

[chilepepper]

And, I'll even back that up. I'll repeat the wording for clarity.

When you use this feat, add +1 to the number of rounds
you must wait before using your breath weapon again.

Now let's look at another feat.

When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities.

Now, does it make any sense at all to say, 'since you don't have any extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities to forfeit, you can't use whirlwind attack'?

[Bayar]

Ref Bayar

Without the feat, you wait for 0 rounds to use it again. With the feat, you wait 1 round to use it again. Simple really.

And if you want to say "Hey, there is no wait time for the DFA breath weapon" then you probably cant use the feat in the first place

[Talic]

High Ref Talic

It seems against the wording of the metabreath feats to allow you to change the wording of the delay. Relevant wording:

To take a metabreath feat, a creature must have a breath weapon whose time between breaths is expressed in rounds. Therefore, a hell hound (which can breathe once every 2d4 rounds) can take metabreath feats, whereas a behir (breath weapon usable 1/minute) cannot.

Now, it's possible to rephrase the behir's delay (much as Chile and Bayar are suggesting with replacing "no delay" with "0 round delay") from "1/minute" to "once every 10 rounds". However, the feat says that behir is not allowed. This shows that converting breath weapon to rounds from non-round delay timings is not allowed, per the feats.

The feat's description states,

When you use this feat, add +1 to the number of rounds you must wait before using your breath weapon again.

There's some wiggle room here. Either the wait time doesn't apply at all (which is the technical interpretation, as there is no wait time, and I've shown that the feat set is designed with the concept of being unable to convert "no wait time" to "a wait time of 0 rounds"), or the feat is unusable, since you cannot add to the time you must wait. This is based on whether or not we rule that increasing the wait time is a requirement of the feat, or an effect.

Implications of the first ruling: Players could apply any metabreath feat as often as they liked, without penalty, and without delays in the usability of the breath weapon. In effect, circumventing the wait time restriction.

Implications of the second ruling: Not technically RAW, by the strictest interpretation, breath weapon unusable if it doesn't have a wait time.

The first ruling is obviously unbalancing. There's no problem with going with it, but, if we do, an additional errata for the purposes of arena combat will likely be required, to mitigate this. Either we establish the wait time, in contradiction with the general metabreath guidelines, or we limit the player to not stacking metabreath, in contradiction of the specific feat.

If we rule the 2nd, it's also not RAW, but there is no balanced RAW answer.

If we were playing this ability strict RAW, no modifications, in all likelihood, it would need to be on the proposed ban list, for evaluation.

[chilepepper]

Well, I think the first part isn't in debate anymore.

To take a metabreath feat, a creature must have a breath weapon whose time between breaths is expressed in rounds. Therefore, a hell hound (which can breathe once every 2d4 rounds) can take metabreath feats, whereas a behir (breath weapon usable 1/minute) cannot.

That's a prereq which I meet. Prereqs don't have anything to do with the usage of a feat, only the qualification to take the feat. I've taken the feat using a 1d4 round wait breath. There's no debate there. Taking the feat is legal.

If you want to rule that the DFA breath has no recharge as opposed to 0 recharge, I'm am now in agreement with my opponent. I'm fine with the monk's movement bonus analogy. Monk gets +10' movement. He doesn't have a fly speed. Not having a fly speed does not equal 0' fly speed. The +10' can't be applied to fly speed because of that. DFA breath = no recharge time. DFA breath does not equal 0 round recharge. Done.

If you want to say, whether there's a wait time or not, you now have to wait 1 round. I'm cool with that. My opponent seems content to argue that into the ground though, so if that's the ruling, please set some limit on how long he can prattle on about that before he earns a DQ.

If my opponent truly will not concede to just letting me wait a round to use it, and you want to rule that way, then my last argument still stands. There's nothing that prevents me from using metabreath feats on a non-recharge breath.

You want super strict RAW, I get to use it every round no matter how METAed up a make it. Round one, I move and engulf nearly the entire arena in fire. Round two, I move again and cover the entire arena in fire that last a billion rounds. Every round after that, I'll start stacking it up so high, no potion of resist energy will help. But congratulations, you won the debate.

You want balanced, house rule it to add a round whether there's a recharge or not. Simple.

[Talic]

The point is, in order to balance it, we need to depart from RAW. If we need to depart from RAW, then:

Not allowing it to apply to breath weapons that don't have a delay expressed in rounds is a valid house ruling.

So is adding rounds, regardless of recharge.

So is preventing metabreath feats from stacking on breath weapons without a delay expressed in rounds.

All three would solve the problem. All three would establish balance. The question is, which one DO we go with?

[FlyMolo]

My two cents.

The first option seems fairly arbitrary, but reinforces with the 'no metabreath for a behir' clause under metabreath feats.

Adding rounds regardless of recharge is the option I personally support. It balances the feat, while allowing players more options. Also, it's just less annoying than the others. There's no IC reason that behirs can't take metabreath feats, other than that they're intended for dragons and their ilk.

Option three is also good, but more limiting than the second.

[Kyeudo]

GM Kyeudo

Not allowing it to apply to breath weapons that don't have a delay expressed in rounds is a valid house ruling.

So is adding rounds, regardless of recharge.

I believe these are the best two options. Mavian wants the first, Chile wants the second. Which would be best for future rounds? I don't have Dragon Magic, so I can't see how these could possibly interact in the future. Any suggestions?

[SamTheCleric]

Nevermind, Mavian already pointed to the sage advice.

[chilepepper]

I don't like the 'it doesn't work on non-recharge breaths.' The feat has a section limiting is usage (must be instantaneous and deal damage). Prereqs and aftereffects don't affect is usage, other feats support that directly. To house rule that way goes against the flow.

Now, going by the assumption that it creates a wait time no matter what is better, IMO. The assuption that you can't make me wait a round because I don't have a wait time to begin with is arrived at from a derivation of the monks bonus speed. It's nowhere near as much of a stretch to say these feats and that classial ability don't relate.

As far as balance and interaction in the future... since we're debating the interaction of separate components and not the components themselves, and we're talking about houseruleing and not banning outright, I'll assume the individual components are okay. Breath weapons with recharge times, all by themselves, are balanced. The effect of the metabreath is balanced by the addition of the +1 round. The DFA breath, by itself, is balanced. If both breaths are balanced, and the positive of the meta balances with the negative of +1 round, then they should mesh just fine.

As far as interactions with other rules from Dragon Magic and Draconomicon and every other book out there...

1 blueberry + 1 blueberry = 2 berries
1 blueberry + 1 raspberry = 2 berries

If somewhere down the line someone throws in a hollyberry, we can deal with the fact hollyberries are poisonous at that time. There's no reason to harsh on the raspberry because hollyberries might be out there somewhere.

[KCiemir]

High Ref KC

My two cents:

I don't have the books involved, but it seems the relevant text has been posted numerous times. My opinion is that metabreath should NOT be allowed to be used on a breath weapon with no delay expressly stated in rounds. My reasoning is as follows:

First, it seems to me that the intention is fairly clear. I know we DO work based off RAW, but when RAW is unclear, and creates this debate, it seems logical to move on to RAI. RAI clearly supports Mavian's points.

Further, the fact is that the adding of one round to a delay time is part of the 'activation cost', if you will, of the feat. In order to use the feat, you must pay this cost. It is similar with metamagic feats: if you can't prepare the spell at a certain level higher, then you can't use the feat. With Metabreath, if you can't add a round to the delay time (which it seems pretty clear you cannot do, see the quote Mav. posted from the 'simple Q&A' a few posts back) than you cannot use the feat.

Moreover, this seems to be the most balanced way to rule. It stops things from getting out of hand with little or no delay between metabreath enhanced breath weapons, and I think THAT is one of the most important points. The key to the success of the tourney is that we use BALANCED RULES. When one build gets too powerful, everyone either plays it or loses to it, and then the people who lose to it because they don't have the books leave, and the tourney fails.

In conclusion, I would rule in favor of no metabreath feats on DFA breath weapon.

EDIT: and, chile, while you are correct we are debating the interaction of two components that are themselves balanced, the question is in what way should the combination be interpreted. In relation to your berry example, I think the best analogy is: It may be two berries, but the question is not what if a poisonous berry was added in the future, but rather is it fair to say that 1 blueberry +1 Blueberry = 1 blueberry + 1 strawberry.

[Talic]

My point, Chile, is that when I'm trying to form an opinion, based on the power level of the ruling, is that I have to see how this can be currently used. In essence, I have to look for the holly berry, and see how this rule affects it.

As is, I've already stated that I feel both the main options Kyeudo believed best are balanced. I think both will create minimal impact on the balance level of the game, especially considering the resources that must be invested in getting this (class that can't start with its primary goal of winning, using a specific template to get the prereq's for the feats, attaining its first win with one of two feat selections (either 15 dex feats, such as Two weapon fighting, or 13 dex feats, like Dodge, Mobility, and Evasive Reflexes) to gain the ability to switch them all out with the conversion, and then focusing those three feats into the character...

Well, the benefit of three feats, usable with 1 class only? The power level for three feats with good synergy is usually pretty high. Other examples used in this arena are Fell Drain Sonic Snap, Spiked chain with 20 feet of reach, and the like. The ability does allow reflex saves still, and thus isn't along the lines of some of the more unbalanced spells.

Based on that, I see no reason why not to allow the breath weapon to be usable, with round wait addition. Bear in mind, if the wait is one round, it does mean that on your next turn, you may not use the breath, if this is the ruling.

That would be my opinion, after analyzing it as objectively as I possibly can.

[chilepepper]

High Ref KC

Further, the fact is that the adding of one round to a delay time is part of the 'activation cost', if you will, of the feat.

Actually, I don't see how you could arrive at that conclusion. (I realize you don't have the book, so you might not have seen the actual wording.) Adding a round is specifically a result of using the feat. Once you have used the feat, you add a round to the wait time. Adding a round happens after you've actually use the feat. If you can't add a round, you've already used the feat.

Based on that, I see no reason why not to allow the breath weapon to be usable, with round wait addition. Bear in mind, if the wait is one round, it does mean that on your next turn, you may not use the breath, if this is the ruling.

Yeah, that would be my assumption. The flavor text of the feat says using a metabreath is more draining and it takes longer to recover. Translated to DFA breath, I have to wait 1 round before I can use it again. I don't know if you thought something was getting through the debate under the table that I could use a regular breath on the off round? I'm assuming 'wait one round' means the ability is unavailable during that time.



I guess the point I'm trying to make is, if we're departing from RAW (which we'd have to because by the the literal wording, it's usable without cost to a DFA and that's hella broken) and we're forced into the realm of RAI then this is how I see it.

RAI: The metabreath causes whatever breath is used to be unusable for 1 round as a result of it's use. If a breath already has a wait, then add 1 round to it.

IMO, anything more than that is tweaking how feats work in general. Prereqs are just that, something you have to have to take a feat, not something you have to use everytime you use a feat.

[chilepepper]

I just noticed something, and I'm going to throw it out in case it's relevant. Clinging breath was reprinted in MM4. It's no longer a [ Metabreath ] feat, so nothing in that section applies (the behir can't use, etc.). In place of that, they've added to the prereq entry in the feat. It says, "Prereq: Con13, breath weapon with recharge time expressed in rounds."

IMO, I think that supports my side of the debate as far as the DFA breath not be excluded because like other feats, you just have to meet the prereq to take the feat, not use it to use the feat. (sorry if that sounds like a broken record)

[Kyeudo]

GM Kyeudo

Alright, it seems we've covered every possible issue so far, and I think I'll reinstate my origional ruling. Chile's prerequisite wrangling allows him to qualify for the feat, so he can apply it to his DFA breath weapon, so long as he abides by the delay increases.

Unless someone has more to add, let's get this show on the road.

[Mavian]

That doesn't make a lick of sense...

The Sage agrees with me, and explictily states that you can't apply Metabreath feats to the DFA's breath weapon because they have a prerequisite the breath doesn't meet. The fact that he has a breath weapon from another source is immaterial to the arguement.

@edit
Acttually, with the reprint in MM4, Chile's argument becomes even more impotent, because we can no see that the increased recharge time in the feat is explicitly linked to to a breath weapon with a recharge time.

[chilepepper]

A: I don't see how the reprint changes anything. There isn't anything different other than how the text is formatted and it's no longer a [ Metabreath ] feat.

B: Kyeudo already pointed out that the Sage gives advice based on RAI for long term campaigns. This is hack and slash RAW. While the Sage can be helpful in some instances, this is not one of them.

C: Kyeudo has now ruled three times that this works. Please respect he authority in this situation and take your first turn or forfeit. This is getting ridiculous.

[Mavian]

Let it be know that this match will be done under protest. And that they way the ruling has been worded, that something that doesn't have a listed value now has a value of 0, My monk can now fly, burrow and swim, and I will debate as such in the next match he's entered in, and expect the same ruling to stand.

For this match, no purchases.

Mike - Round 1.

Starting in B13, with 3 Javelins in hand
Standard Action: Throw Javelin at partition
Attack: (1d20)[2]
Damage: (1d6+4)[9]

For Refs:

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Originally, I had planned to full attack, but as the rules stat, I don't actually have to decide that until after my first attack roll, so these rolls are no longer valid.
2nd:
Attack: (1d20)[10]
Damage: (1d6+2)[8]
3rd:
Attack: (1d20)[1]
Damage: (1d6+2)[7]

Move Action: B13 to B21

End of Turn

[chilepepper]

I don't think the ruling was "anything that "is not" is actually a 0". I think the ruling was, metabreaths cause nonrecharge breaths to delay. I'm sure if Kyeudo ruled the other way, that the breath isn't usable because it doesn't meet the prereq, that wouldn't apply to all feats, because that would screw the entire game up, just as what you're proposing will. I just hope I'm not in the match that you delay for a week arguing that point futilely.

Round 1

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Move to V18, ready to use DB breath on LoE. (I'm assuming I have to choose which breath since they're different abilities, DB for dragonborn, DFA for the other.) I'll throw some stats up later.

Done.

[Mavian]

Mike - Round 2

Move Action: B21 to somewhere

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Move Action: B21 to N25, switching out my two remaining Javelins for 3 hammers during my move, and hiding.
Hide: (1d20+3)[14] - Only moved 70 feet, so no negatives.
also, since my opponent has also hidden, a reactive spot check to notice him, if its needed.
Reactive Spot: (1d20-1)[9]

End of Turn

[chilepepper]

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Move to V19, hide (1d20)[15]. Ready to breath DB breath on LoE.

[chilepepper]

stats for refs

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HP: 15
AC: 18 T14 F14
Breath Delays- DB: 0 DFA: 0
Position: V19, hiding, readied action

Done

[Talic]

LOS:

@Administrative Ref only spoiler for players that may or may not have forgotten their reactive sense rolls in their post. Refs only:

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Chile: Spot:(1d20+6)[10]
Listen(DC 10 + Distance (16)): (1d20-2)[7]
Hammer:
Listen(DC 10 + Distance (16)):(1d20-1)[9]

@Mavian:

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First, for hide checks:

Your Hide check is opposed by the Spot check of anyone who might see you. You can move up to one-half your normal speed and hide at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than one-half but less than your normal speed, you take a -5 penalty. It’s practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging.

A double move of 70 feet qualifies in the bolded area.

No LOS. You hear nothing.

@Chile:

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No LOS. You hear nothing.

[Mavian]

Mike - Round 3

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Move Action: N25 to Q25, switching from hammers back to javelins
Hide Check: (1d20+3)[11]
Standard Action:Ready an Action

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Ready an action to move if I spot Chile and he breathes

Reactive Spot Check:
(1d20-1)[9]

End of Turn: May require LoS Checks.

[FlyMolo]

Initiate Ref FlyMolo

Chile!

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no los.

Mavian!

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No LoS!

Good karma generated.

[chilepepper]

Bottom of the 3rd, two men on base

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Hrmm. Time to spark up a doobie. Breath of the Night focused at W23/X24. I'll move to Z23 and hide (1d20-5)[10].

FYI - A creature within 5 feet has concealment (attacks have a
20% miss chance).
Creatures farther away have total concealment (50% miss
chance, and the attacker can’t use sight to locate the target).

stats for refs

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HP: 15
AC: 18 T14 F14
Breath Delays- DB: 0 DFA: 0
Position: Z23, hiding
Fog areas (start round):
U21 to Z26 and W/X20 and T23/24 (3)

Done, calling for a ref to give you info based on where you're at.

[SamTheCleric]

Initiate Ref Sam

@Chilepepper:

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How big of an area does your Breath of the Night cover? I assume its a visual effect and I want to describe it without giving away your position

EDIT: Nevermind, it's in your stats block

Need a clarification on something real quick before the LoS is complete. I'm really terrible at using my Line of Sight wand.

Ignore me or the bad man will get you.

[SamTheCleric]

Initiate Ref Sam

@Mavian:

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No line of sight

@Chilepepper

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No line of sight. Breath of Night is a 20ft radius spread? I'd like to update your map with all the darkness, but I'm not sure where it goes

[chilepepper]

@sam, refs

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I know I don't have LoS because I can't see anything more than 5' away and Mike wasn't where I am now. I mainly needed a ref to tell him he sees the smoke because I'm pretty sure he's on the south side of the map. You can copy/paste the area of the smoke from my stat block. I just can't be sure Mike is on the south side, if he isn't, he wouldn't see it.