Ok, so what's so bad about.....

[HamsterOfTheGod]

For instance, Vinny's "Yeah, he's bad news." comment is an example of the former -- Vinny recognizes that, yes, there are good reasons to fight Stanley, but still questions why it's such a big deal that a marginally involved side like Jetstone would put forth a great effort and lead a coalition against him.

My take on that is not that Vinny questions the great effort against Stanley itself, not even by Jetstone itself. He puts out a great effort himself even to the point of being happy with his effort on what he thought was his possible last turn on Erf...er I'm talking about the effort he put out before he left with Charlie's Archons

My take on that convo is that Vinny is doing his street-philosopher bit with Ansom and asking him what's his motivation in the matter. Vinny does that again when he asks Ansom if he trusts Jillian and again when they talk about the Titans and again when Vinny asks for the 2 cask talk after Ansom's blow up.

The latter, more intense, reaction seems to be particular to Ansom and Jillian, for various reasons (some of them clearly established, and possibly others that can be read between the lines -- see previous posts this thread).

Well there are really not that many main characters to go by. If you break them down

Stanley is a monster...Ansom, Jillian
Stanley has to go...Vinny (and presumably other coalition warlords)
Hates and fears Stanley...Misty, Bogroll, the Foolamancer
Hates but is forced to work for Stanley...Parson, Sizemore, Maggie
Hates but likes to work for for Stanley...Wanda ("evil")
Seem eager to work for Stanley...Dwagons and other "evil" troops
Couldn't care less...Charlie, the Magic Kingdom, the uncroaked

Given the above, all I'm saying is that I don't see why Jillian and Ansom's reactions seem so unreasonable. They seem pretty much in the camp of "hate Stanley" which is where pretty all the "good" characters are.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

Not necessarily. Remember WWI. The reason it got to the 'World' status was because of a series of alliances.

All true but there's no need to assume this since we are told over and over again by Ansom, Vinny and Jillian that Stanley was the aggressor against several other tribes.

I'm pretty sure not everybody is there because they want to squash stanley. Probably just because they want to show support for their ally.

Fair enough. That could be. But it is an assumption on your part.

Also, since Stanley became king, I don't remember the comic showing him winning any battles.

Stanley did not become King. He's not royal. He became Overlord. And Wanda tells him at the very beginning that since the arkentool search/war started, Stanley has lost every battle including 11 cities, the last one before Gobwin Knob being Warchalking.

I know attacking somebody and still losing is still an act of war. But nothing like a rampaging monster who can't be stopped.

Are we arguing semantics here? Do you just object to Jillian's use of the term 'monster'? 'cause I'm arguing that the character of Stanley is the Big Bad Evil Guy, the guy who is the source of all the conflict. And in-story that means that he is evil, big, evil like attacking other kingdoms at will, not caring about his own underlings, not caring about the methods used, not caring about anyone but himself and having no sense of doubt about his actions, evil like that. Now if you say that is still not 'monstrous' evil like say real-world evil like Hitler than OK sure. But then what are we arguing?

True, he won alot of battles during the reign of Saline, but shouldn't they tribes he hit be more upset at saline for either ordering the attack or letting it go?

Again this is an assumption on your part. Though there is no definitive time line, the implication in the comic, at least to me, is that Stanley started the war after Saline croaked.

Page 5...Wanda implies that Stanley started loosing battles...11 cities in all...after he began questing for the other Arkentools...the implicatin is that Saline did not start the battles.

Page 34...Vinny implies that Stanley "rubbed out the Milquetoast clan"...that is that Saline did not. In the same convo Vinny implies that Ansom is not after Stanley because of his aggression but because of how he came to power. Again the implications is that the aggression started after Stanley came to power.

Page 92...Jillian only comes to the conlusion that Stanley attacked Faq only after she runs into other tribes mad at him, Stanley...again the implication is that the leader is Stanley at that point not Saline.

Yes, however Vinny is either just very much more level-headed than Ansom or he just knows he has a job that needs to get done. Remember war is everywhere in Erf. It may be that there's never been a period of peace. The same sentiment could apply to anybody who's at war with somebody else, not because he's a 'monster'

Can't that logic be used on Earth not Erf? Isn't it used by some to call us monsters? But what does it matter? I just don't get that argument. Yes, Erf is like a wargame. But if you don't buy that the world is more than just a game, or a figment of Parson's mind, you can't really care what happens in this fictional world, or can you?

Actually I think for Stanley's troops, it's more like, "OBEY ME, THEN DIE, THEN GET UNCROAKED SO I DON'T HAVE TO PAY AS MUCH FOR UPKEEP!"

And yet he's not "monstrous".

Agreed, it depends on what you're willing to call an 'evil' act. and whether or not you believe in aboslutes.

Well at least we agree on something. But the "absolutes" things always gets me.

What get's me is this. Almost everyone in this thread and forum makes at least some absolute judgements on some things on Erf. For ex, you might, or might not, think or feel any of the following

-Ansom is wrong to think being royal is inherently better than being not royal

-Wanda was wrong to mind control Jillian

-Stanley was wrong for breaking the link, killing Misty, and abondoning Gobwin Knob

Yet this is a story and it is OK, even necessary emotionally, to make these judgements because you are reading a story.

Now there are real-world arguments that can be made about whether there exists good and evil and other absolutes. Why argue that here?

My point is simply that, again, functionally and in-story, Stanley is the big bad. He is the Xykon of Erf. He is a literary evil, not a real one. And literary evil can exist in Erfworld just as surely as dwagons and unicorns.

[Twisted Otaku]

I apologize if some of this seems a little scatterbrained, I wrote it early this morning but couldn't post it due to forum trouble. So I saved it to Word and am posting it now ^_^

Stanley did not become King.

Right, sorry. His function as overlord is the same though right? That's assumedly what Ansom's 'stick' is all about

Are we arguing semantics here? Do you just object to Jillian's use of the term 'monster'? 'cause I'm arguing that the character of Stanley is the Big Bad Evil Guy, the guy who is the source of all the conflict. And in-story that means that he is evil, big, evil like attacking other kingdoms at will, not caring about his own underlings, not caring about the methods used, not caring about anyone but himself and having no sense of doubt about his actions, evil like that. Now if you say that is still not 'monstrous' evil like say real-world evil like Hitler than OK sure. But then what are we arguing?

I suppose what I'm getting at is that Stanley seems a bit too incompetent to be the super bad person. Don't get me wrong, you don't have to be smart or shrewd or focused to be dagnasty evil (see Xyklon). Stanley seems more the type to be manipulated, in fact we’ve seen that he already has been, and that apparently it’s not that hard to do. I know it's a presumption but that just seems more plausible than having him win x number of battles (alot apparently) and then lose every one after becoming the leader. I know, he may have won earlier because he had an armada of dwagons and he himself was actually fighting, but something just isn't right ^_^;;; I can't say anything past that.

Again this is an assumption on your part. Though there is no definitive time line, the implication in the comic, at least to me, is that Stanley started the war after Saline croaked.

He might have started the 'Big' war that we're seeing being played out now but there is a little bit of timeline here http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0087.html 3rd to last panel

Stanley was fighting and winning battles for Saline. But who was Saline at war with, and why? If there were implications of Stanleys actions such as 'He attacked my ally without my orders' I don't think a king would turn around and say 'but he kicked their ass so I'm promoting him' . Although who knows right? Saline could have been off of his rocker

Page 34...Vinny implies that Stanley "rubbed out the Milquetoast clan"...that is that Saline did not. In the same convo Vinny implies that Ansom is not after Stanley because of his aggression but because of how he came to power. Again the implications is that the aggression started after Stanley came to power.

The problem is, that AFTER Stanely came to power, he started losing battles. How do you rub out an entire clan of elves by losing? Even if it is the Milquetoast clan...

Page 92...Jillian only comes to the conlusion that Stanley attacked Faq only after she runs into other tribes mad at him, Stanley...again the implication is that the leader is Stanley at that point not Saline.

The only problem I have with this part is that Stanley attacked Faq (or was ordered to) while Saline was still alive (I think). So, either Saline ordered the attack on Faq or Stanley went of on his own and Saline was fine with that. Given what's happened already in the strip (as far as loyalty and folloing orders *coughJilliancough*) it's not hard to see Stanley going off on his own if he has nothing better to do. Jillian can be mad at Stanley because he was there, not necessarily because he was the faction ruler, because he wasn't at the time.

Can't that logic be usedon Earth not Erf? Isn't it used by some to call us monsters? But what does it matter? I just don't get that argument. Yes, Erf is like a wargame. But if you don't buy that the world is more than just a game, or a figment of Parson's mind, you can't really care what happens in this fictional world, or can you?

Well, I certainly do care... or at the very least am interested in what happens. Sorry, I'm not sure how to respond to this, it is 3 am and for today and the last 2 two days I've worked doubles. ^_^;;;

And yet he's not "monstrous".

Heh, I really just said that to lighten the mood. Actually... hmm I don't know if you've ever heard of or played the game Rome Total War? Pretty cool game. Anyways, in this game you control cities, build buildings in them make troops, use dimplomacy etc etc etc... One thing that I kinda exploited in the game is the fact that cities can become plagued, and important characters in them (generals, spies, diplomats) can become plague bearers. So, what I would do is when a city of mine became plagued, I'd produce a lot of spies from that city so that they would all be plague bearers, and I'd send these spies out into my enemies (and a few allies *wink*) towns, thereby spreading the plague, and seriously hurting my opposition.

Now, I'm sure somebody like Ansom would call me more than just a monster for doing something like that. But I'm also sure Parson would motion for a high five or give me a slap on the back or something. He's monstrous to Ansom because of how he came to power. Vinnie even asks why Jetstone is fighting, they killed a few feild units. And yeah, while that can serve as justification for 'ending a great evil' as Ansom puts it, that doesn't mean that Stanley has done anything horrible. It's hard to say since the whole king saline think is a little murky. (sorry for the long reply)[/QUOTE]

Yet this is a story and it is OK, even necessary emotionally, to make these judgements because you are reading a story.

Absolutely! Stories exist to elicit emotion and intellectual judgements.

Now there are real-world arguments that can be made about whether there exists good and evil and other absolutes. Why argue that here?

I suppose the only reason I have for this is that, just because a lot of people think that Stanley is some huge evil threat that is second only to Sauron, doesn't mean that he is. There are alot of half truths that we know in this story. Everything everybody has told us is from their perspective (except the intro, with the titans) It's like looking at alot of puzzle peices and trying to figure out what the picture is without being able to put them all together. People see different things.

My point is simply that, again, functionally and in-story, Stanley is the big bad. He is the Xykon of Erf. He is a literary evil, not a real one. And literary evil can exist in Erfworld just as surely as dwagons and unicorns.

For what's been shown to us yes, Stanley is the main instigator of the war, not exactly a pleasant person to be around, and has utter disregard for his troops. Whether that makes him the super villan, I can't say, there is much more we need to know, that's why I hypothesize about the future though. I don't claim that I'm right, I'm just trying to find the best answer (for me) ^_^ and now... good night *zzzzzzzzz*

[SteveMB]

Focusing on one section of that post where I thought of a few possibly interesting side points:

The only problem I have with this part is that Stanley attacked Faq (or was ordered to) while Saline was still alive (I think). So, either Saline ordered the attack on Faq or Stanley went of on his own and Saline was fine with that.

Well, the Big Cheese office seems to have had the same old "Evil Overlord" decor back when it belonged to King Saline IV....

Given what's happened already in the strip (as far as loyalty and folloing orders *coughJilliancough*) it's not hard to see Stanley going off on his own if he has nothing better to do. Jillian can be mad at Stanley because he was there, not necessarily because he was the faction ruler, because he wasn't at the time.

We don't know whether the fall of Faq was before or after Stanley became Overlord. My guess would be "after" because of the odd fact that the cities of Faq weren't rebuilt. Normally, a conquering ruler would want to rebuild conquered cities so that they produce income and units. However, we know of a potential reason why Stanley wouldn't necessarily do the normal thing -- his priority is getting the Arkentools. If he attacked Faq out of a belief that there was an Arkentool hidden away there, and found that there wasn't, he might have not cared about it any more (and perhaps deliberately wanted to put the whole disappointing subject out of mind).

Even if Saline was still ruler when Faq was attacked, Jillian would still have an obvious reason to focus her ire on Stanley -- he's available to take revenge against, Saline isn't. If Stanley wants to be "holy", Jillian will gladly oblige him, and throw in an extra "e" between the "l" and "y".

[Twisted Otaku]

Focusing on one section of that post where I thought of a few possibly interesting side points:



Well, the Big Cheese office seems to have had the same old "Evil Overlord" decor back when it belonged to King Saline IV....

Not to mention the fact that he was allied with gobwins

We don't know whether the fall of Faq was before or after Stanley became Overlord. My guess would be "after" because of the odd fact that the cities of Faq weren't rebuilt. Normally, a conquering ruler would want to rebuild conquered cities so that they produce income and units. However, we know of a potential reason why Stanley wouldn't necessarily do the normal thing -- his priority is getting the Arkentools. If he attacked Faq out of a belief that there was an Arkentool hidden away there, and found that there wasn't, he might have not cared about it any more (and perhaps deliberately wanted to put the whole disappointing subject out of mind).

Here's how I see it. Stanley leaves for Faq, Saline gets the axe, Stanley hits Faq, returns and takes back GK. The only thing that can really be interchanged there are the middle two. We don't really know because our only source of info on this, Sizemore, was with Stanley during the Faq raid and so couldn't have known which happened first. I'm not sure it matters entirely either. Also, It says that Stanley became overlord AFTER he took back GK. That's why Jillian isn't an overlord, or queen or whatever, because she has no capitol city. Unless a new city is called your capital if your original falls, Stanley would be an heir without a capital, just as Jillian alleged herself to be. So how does that work? So many questions : p

Even if Saline was still ruler when Faq was attacked, Jillian would still have an obvious reason to focus her ire on Stanley -- he's available to take revenge against, Saline isn't.

Exactly, I think I said that somewhere in that crazy, sleepdeprived rant : p

If Stanley wants to be "holy", Jillian will gladly oblige him, and throw in an extra "e" between the "l" and "y".

ow... just... *sigh* ow....

[SteveMB]

Here's how I see it. Stanley leaves for Faq, Saline gets the axe, Stanley hits Faq, returns and takes back GK. The only thing that can really be interchanged there are the middle two. We don't really know because our only source of info on this, Sizemore, was with Stanley during the Faq raid and so couldn't have known which happened first.

There's no reason to think the raid Stanley was on when the gobwins rebelled and the attack on Faq were the same event. In fact, there's a good reason they probably aren't -- the "Smurf village" look of the former doesn't at all resemble the "Asian" flavor of the latter.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

I suppose what I'm getting at is that Stanley seems a bit too incompetent to be the super bad person. Don't get me wrong, you don't have to be smart or shrewd or focused to be dagnasty evil (see Xyklon).

Our lovable tyrant is not the smartest tool in the shed but he can be crafty when he needs to be. He's only comically incompetent.

Stanley seems more the type to be manipulated, in fact we’ve seen that he already has been, and that apparently it’s not that hard to do.

It's not easy either

I know it's a presumption but that just seems more plausible than having him win x number of battles (alot apparently) and then lose every one after becoming the leader. I know, he may have won earlier because he had an armada of dwagons and he himself was actually fighting, but something just isn't right ^_^;;; I can't say anything past that.

Stanley can kick boop. I kind of wanted him to dress up in full regalia with the dwagons and go fight Ansom and Jillian but he didn't

But there's a good in-story reason for him not to do it. And I've bough the backstory too. Stanley is the typical unsuccessful evil boss.

Although who knows right? Saline could have been off of his rocker

Or our crafty villian wasn't giving him the full Stanley in all his Toolness.

The problem is, that AFTER Stanely came to power, he started losing battles. How do you rub out an entire clan of elves by losing? Even if it is the Milquetoast clan...

Well Wanda only said he lost every battle after he started questing for the Arkentools...and you can destroy something even if you lose a battle....the problem is that we don't have a definite timeline but I kind of like it that way...so many questions...

Actually... hmm I don't know if you've ever heard of or played the game Rome Total War? Pretty cool game. Anyways, in this game you control cities, build buildings in them make troops, use dimplomacy etc etc etc... One thing that I kinda exploited in the game is the fact that cities can become plagued, and important characters in them (generals, spies, diplomats) can become plague bearers. So, what I would do is when a city of mine became plagued, I'd produce a lot of spies from that city so that they would all be plague bearers, and I'd send these spies out into my enemies (and a few allies *wink*) towns, thereby spreading the plague, and seriously hurting my opposition.

Cool

Now, I'm sure somebody like Ansom would call me more than just a monster for doing something like that.

Paladin...stick...

Absolutely! Stories exist to elicit emotion and intellectual judgements.

And webcomic forums exist to elicit?

I suppose the only reason I have for this is that, just because a lot of people think that Stanley is some huge evil threat that is second only to Sauron, doesn't mean that he is.

No, no Stanley is not as evil as Sauran. He doesn't have enough pretension and boring backstory to be that evil.

For what's been shown to us yes, Stanley is the main instigator of the war, not exactly a pleasant person to be around, and has utter disregard for his troops. Whether that makes him the super villan, I can't say, there is much more we need to know, that's why I hypothesize about the future though. I don't claim that I'm right, I'm just trying to find the best answer (for me) ^_^ and now... good night *zzzzzzzzz*

If it quacks like an evil duck...

[Twisted Otaku]

There's no reason to think the raid Stanley was on when the gobwins rebelled and the attack on Faq were the same event. In fact, there's a good reason they probably aren't -- the "Smurf village" look of the former doesn't at all resemble the "Asian" flavor of the latter.

hmmm good point ^_^;;; I'm not so sure when everything happened then

[Twisted Otaku]

Stanley can kick boop. I kind of wanted him to dress up in full regalia with the dwagons and go fight Ansom and Jillian but he didn't

But there's a good in-story reason for him not to do it. And I've bough the backstory too. Stanley is the typical unsuccessful evil boss.

Yeah, that would be too climactic. Besides, I'm sure Stanley thinks that he'd have much better chances with another arkentool.

Well Wanda only said he lost every battle after he started questing for the Arkentools...and you can destroy something even if you lose a battle....the problem is that we don't have a definite timeline but I kind of like it that way...so many questions...

I agree, and it's the 'questions' that always raise such heated debate. I suppose we'd have to know when this quest for the arkentools would have started though, I couldn't fathom it being too long after he found the hammer. Which had to be a while, since he won so many battles with it. I mean, if you had found an artifact left over by the gods that gave you supernatural powers, how long would you just sit on it?

And webcomic forums exist to elicit?

Well, in theory just to discuss. In practice, nobody likes to be wrong, or even think that they are wrong, but we have to be able to try to step outside ourselves.

No, no Stanley is not as evil as Sauran. He doesn't have enough pretension and boring backstory to be that evil.

ZING!

If it quacks like an evil duck...[/QUOTE]


It might just be somebody doing a great evil duck impression

[rosebud]

do we have any idea what makes Stanley a monster?

Well, he presumably has stats and can be attacked. He's also the enemy and not a diety or demigod, so monster seems a reasonable enough class to put him in.

You're not implying monster is inherently bad, right?