Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

[Talic]

First of all, the 1.5 multiplyer only applies to the STR, not the spc. or enhance bonus. The fighter with a TH-weapon will add 1.5 of his STR bonus to the damage.
So at level 15, enlarged, he'll do:
3d6 (base) + 12 (STR bonus damage) + 4 (enhance) +4 (wp. specialisation) = 31 avg

Ok. Let's take this example.

Well, since you added the STR bonus to it, a monk specialised in damage-dealing will have a STR of exactly the same extent (note that your STR item AND the +4 weapon are more expensive than the monk's expense for monk's belt and divine power - to make up the monk adds a lvl 3 pearl of power and rod of lesser extend to receive a +3 enhancement bonus from greater magic weapon casting for 24 hours); plus the monk gets +6 enhancement vs the fighter's +4, so actually he has higher STR than the fighter).

6d8 (base) + 9 (STR bonus damage) +3 (enhance) = 39 average.

See, now this really turns my stomach. Reason being? This deviates from your build listed. You're still using whatever build you find convenient. The build you've listed here is going to have weakened saves, very weakened AC, and the like. This will result in a scenario that I'll pull up in a moment.

So that puts the monk ahead by +8 damage per hit.

If you factor in an improper fighter build and a monk build that sacrifices everything for damage, plus a monk that gets 2 free rounds of buffing. We'll get back to that.

Now, let us see. The fighter is behind in damage output by 8. So he'll need to deduct with power attack already his complete BAB advantage. However, his BAB advantage is gone thanks to divine power of the monk - the only thing remaining, therefore, are the bonuses from +2 greater weapon focus (note that the monk can spend one feat to get weapon focus as well!) and the one better enhancement bonus.
So the monk stays slightly ahead in damage.

Wrong.

NOW factor in that the monk has TWO more attacks from flurry, AND could use feats to have two-weapon-fighting tree (that a TH-Attacking fighter or babarian could not choose), and then the monk actually outdamages the fighter by far.

First factor incorrect, second factor, incorrect. Flawed conclusion based on flawed premise. Two handed Weapon fighters CAN take advantage of Two weapon fighting, and two weapon fighting cannot be used with unarmed strikes alone for extra damage. For that, you'd need monk weapons in your off hand, which would cause you to lose that damage bonus from monk unarmed.

This is counterbalanced by the fact that without the divine power (7 rounds only) buff, the monk is somewhat behind in damage output (though not much, he'll retain TWO more attacks at level 15, and one more for the rest of the non-epic levels).

Do you now start to see what it means to have such a high base damage AND a higher number of attacks?[/quote]Yes. Nothing.

Dissection time.

On Two Weapon fighting. Not a monk feat, so you need to meet prerequisites. Dex 15. If you intend to use that with your 18 strength in your fighter example above, it means that before enlarge, you need a dex of 17. Thus, the 29 point build is:
Str: 18, Dex: 17, Everything else: 8.

That would be IF it worked, which it does not. SRD text:

If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon.

A weapon must be in your hand to benefit. Certain exceptions apply (such as armor spikes, which have specific text overriding this). But an unarmed strike does not qualify.

On your monk's superior damage, let's assume for a second that the numbers you posted are correct.

Round 1: Fighter and monk each get enlarge from friendly mage, fighter charges, dealing his average damage on a charge (33, for a 1 point power attack, to offset the charge bonus). This is done after the trip attack. Monk pulls out his wand, and performs UMD, also successful, luckily, and gets off a divine power.

Monster attacks fighter, hits once. Provokes attack from getting up. 33 more damage.

Round 2: Fighter Full attacks, dealing an average of 31 on his first hit, 31 on his second hit, uses improved trip to knock opponent down.
Monk charges, hits, and deals his average damage. 39.

Monster on fighter hits once, provokes an AoO getting up. 31 more damage for fighter.
Monster on monk hits twice, as the monk's AC is sitting somewhere in the vicinity of 13.

End of round 2: Fighter - 159. Monk - 39. At this level range, the fighter has already dropped his target.

Round 3: Fighter charges trip-resistant monster, deals 33 damage (1 pt power attack).
Monk full attacks original monster, 3 hits, 117 damage, dropping monster.

Round 4: Fighter full attacks, dealing 62 damage in 2 hits.
Monk charges, dealing 39 damage.

Round 5: Fighter attacks once, deals 31 damage, dropping foe, moves to gain position on next foe.
Monk full attacks, dealing 117 damage, dropping foe.

End of round 5, remaining monsters flee. Party successfully overcomes encounter.

This is fighter. Barbarian will outdamage, and by quite a bit. (likely use a +1 Greataxe, Vicious, Flaming, for enlarged damage of 3d6+2d6+1d6+1.5 str + 1). This results in a rather narrow Damage dice margin, and with an 8th level strength easily reaching 30 (let's say 18 base, +2 from levels, +2 enlarge, +4 rage, +4 bull's strength, which is an hour/level long term buff), for an easy +15 from str. That extra str can be put into power attack, on a 1 for 2 basis, maintaining parity with even a divine power'd character after power attacking for 2. (+4 damage). Average damage: 41, easy, and this isn't really even trying. Add in another level to match out your monk, throw on, let's say, a +4 dex item, and two weapon fighting with armor spikes, and we've got another 1d8+5 minimum per off hand, on top of the other stuff.

This also doesn't factor in the added bonus against low ac opponents, where both the fighter and the barbarian have easy access to a 9 point power attack, for a +18 to damage per hit, shooting them both quite high.

This also doesn't factor in outside of core, where the fighter will have the shock trooper tree for massive power attacks, and the barbarian will have pounce, for similar levels of damage.

In short, when you think of your damage, you don't think of the rounds it takes to get that damage. You assume magic weapon, enlarge, and divine power, all available at the start. That's almost never the case, given the duration of the last two.

[Solo]

Yes, continue to maintain that even will all the evidence piled up in front of you. Even Solo admitted it by now.

An unoptimized fighter is beaten by a monk optimized to heck. Congratulations, you've surpassed a low mark.

What exactly makes the monk a less valuable member of the team when he can
- do great damage
- do great combat tactics (grapple, improved disarm, flyby attack, great move)
- be the one to be left standing after devastating spell attacks to save the others?
- have items in his possession that greaty synergise with/benefit also others in the group? (wands, pearls of power)
- can be a great scout?

Excuse me? Your half orc monk can Improved Disarm (Int penalty?), UMD (cha penalty?), Flyby Attack (Where are you getting your base fly speed for that? Do half orcs have wings?) and scout (with only 2 sk/level, you can't UMD and scout at the same time. And even if you could what do you do about traps?)

Or does your monk change race and build every time you level up?

[Solo]

Hmmm...so after you have seen that at level 15 with the usual buffs or wbl stuff the monk is ahead now you wish to create a level 6 scenario where a caster class will get an advantage.

Hmmm.

Letussee.
Half-orc monk.
STR 23 (18 +2 racial, +2 size, +1 stat gain), DEX 10, CON 10, INT 6, WIS 14, CHR 6.
Permanently enlarged at 10th level for 3,100 gp (3,000 for permanency, 100 for enlarge)
2,325 for large magic spiked chain +1. 75 gp for mundane equipment.
AC 12 (-1 size, +2 WIS, +1 monk)
Feats: Improved Unarmed strike, Improved Grapple, ExWpProf-Spiked chain, Combat Reflexes, Blind-Fight, Improved Natural Attack, Improved Trip

Attack (with chain): +11, damage 2d6+10, trip mod: +14
Grapple: +18 (or flurry +17/+17), damage 3d6+6
Skills (maxed): Move silently, listen.

- Giacomo

Why are you investing resources into a spiked chain when we're comparing grapple modifiers?

And why do you have that as your level 6 build?

Weren't you going to use the Joker?

And why does it only have 12 AC?

Plus, are you sure it's 28 point buy?

[Sir Giacomo]

yes, using massive amounts of resources to squeak past a low powered class can generally be considered failing.

Again, "massive amounts"? Where from?

Where's my apology?

Well, you won't get any. Sorry, Solo, but just minutes before that you still were doubting the whole 6d8 damage being enough thing (which strongly suggested to me that you were in that level 15 scenario).
Now that we have cleared the question that, yes, a monk at level 15 will more than keep up with the rest of the damage-dealers in the group, we can turn to level 6.

Skill points into UMD, money into UMD, feats into UMD....

Yep. It's hard to be proven wrong.
UMD is cheap enough and hardly uses up any ressources for the great return it brings, and that has been shown already countless times. Maybe one day you'll accept it.
Here are the hard numbers again for the UMD trick
1/7 of the joker monk's skill points
1/4 of his freely available feats
roughly 1/3 of his wbl for consumable items.
0% of his choosable class abilities.

I have always heard that weapon specialization feats were a waste of time.

Probably not for archery builds. But yes. The fighter trying to keep up in sheer damage output with the monk will tend to get unoptimised (the same if he wants to keep up in the grappling game - and fails, due to less no. of checks and less unarmed damage).

And how does this monk of yours scout and fulfil the other roles you said a monk was good at?

Check that joker monk build posted ages ago. If you wish to compare damage-specialised builds...well, "your" fighter does not fulfill exactly any other role, either. The half-orc specialised build at least still retains all of his other monk abilities (like better defenses, higher move etc.).

[quote[The above levl 15 monk used up around 25% of his wbl to do that great damage output and 1 buff round. Yes, that's truly "a lot of time and resources".

And the fighter only has a +4 weapon.[/QUOTE]

Yep, because with 1 skill point he all of a sudden uses also UMD for a level 3 scroll (which at that level btw he cannot achieve reliably, since it is DC 25 vs a wand's 20).

And as for the buff round difference: this is why that more likely happening surprise round for the monk (due to higher stealth and/or higher move) comes in so handy. Plus, a fighter not being buffed at all at those levels for a round would be quite a rare occurance.

Neither is the fighter.

Good job, after all your work, you are about at good as a run of the mill fighter.

Ach, Solo, is it so hard to change your ways? The monk class is about as good in damage output as a fighter at that level - and look at what else the monk at that level can do and what the fighter with his remaining feats can do! Both can achieve still some remarkable exploits with their remaining stuff, meaning a lot of fun to play.

And where's my apology?

See above. Asking twice in the same post will get you nowhere.
And where's your cleric build?

- Giacomo

[Talic]

Plus, are you sure it's 28 point buy?

It's 30. He neglected to add in the wisdom penalty.

[Sir Giacomo]

OK, guys,

loads of simultaneous posts happening.

Only one thing to point out:
If you wish to compare specialised grapplers or melee damage dealers of the respective classes (cleric, barbarian, fighter, rogue), you'll have to compare that to a monk build that specialises also in grappling or damage dealing. Or you cannot say anything about the viability of a class in that area.

So, yes, a level 15 half-orc monk with STR zillion will have greater weaknesses in other areas, something that the joker monk avoids.

When Solo proposes a fighter with maximum STR and full weapon specialisation for maximum damage output, I feel free to do the same for a monk class.

When Solo proposes a grappling cleric, of course I also focus the monk on grappling.

The joker monk's speciality is to beat batman (or rather: have a good chance doing so), at all levels. Not to outdamage the fighter or outgrapple a grapple-focused cleric of whoever.
Although he certainly is not that far behind in those aspects, either.

- Giacomo

[Nebo_]

- do great damage
- do great combat tactics (grapple, improved disarm, flyby attack, great move)
- be the one to be left standing after devastating spell attacks to save the others?
- have items in his possession that greaty synergise with/benefit also others in the group? (wands, pearls of power)
- can be a great scout?

This list is a case of: Pick one, fail at all the others.

[Talic]

Ach, Solo, is it so hard to change your ways? The monk class is about as good in damage output as a fighter at that level - and look at what else the monk at that level can do and what the fighter with his remaining feats can do!

The monk is as good at damage as a bad fighter.

The fighter has many feats at his disposal, which can open up many other options.

The monk has all his feats tied up in UMD (with that 6 cha, still not getting close to UMD a wand), all his stats tied up in physical damage, and all his skills tied up in UMD (what with that lovely int of 6).

In other words, the monk can do precisely squat other than what you built him to do, while the fighter still has feats at his disposal.

[Solo]

And where's your cleric build?

Heaven forbid I have a life so that I cannot devote my time to making characters on demand.

I shall put my Motorola internship aside for this challenge at once!

Ach, Solo, is it so hard to change your ways? The monk class is about as good in damage output as a fighter at that level

When the monk is buffed up to heck, and the fighter has no buffs.

Neither is the fighter.

Er, Giacomo, that's from someone else's post.

Yep, because with 1 skill point he all of a sudden uses also UMD for a level 3 scroll (which at that level btw he cannot achieve reliably, since it is DC 25 vs a wand's 20).

The fighter has 3 skill points per level, due to being human. Surely he can spare two for UMD? Not like he has anything better to do.

Check that joker monk build posted ages ago. If you wish to compare damage-specialised builds...well, "your" fighter does not fulfill exactly any other role, either.

The fighter was never advertised as anything but a fighter. He's not supposed to fulfill other roles.

Yep. It's hard to be proven wrong.
UMD is cheap enough and hardly uses up any ressources for the great return it brings, and that has been shown already countless times. Maybe one day you'll accept it.
Here are the hard numbers again for the UMD trick
1/7 of the joker monk's skill points
1/4 of his freely available feats
roughly 1/3 of his wbl for consumable items.
0% of his choosable class abilities.

You don't consider 25% of feats to be a lot?

And while UMD takes 1/7th of his skill points, you also spent points in decipher script and k. Arcana.

Plus, when WBL is concerned, you not only spend money on consumables, but also on thins to aid UMD.

Please take it all into account.

Again, "massive amounts"? Where from?

Feats and skill points are valuable resources.

Sorry, Solo, but just minutes before that you still were doubting the whole 6d8 damage being enough thing (which strongly suggested to me that you were in that level 15 scenario).

Given that, unbuffed, you are inferior to a unbuffed, unoptimized fighter and buffed, slightly ahead, I don't think this supports your argument well.

Now that we have cleared the question that, yes, a monk at level 15 will more than keep up with the rest of the damage-dealers in the group, we can turn to level 6.

We have proven that a monk who sweats keeps up with your average fighter.
You call that enough?

Well, you won't get any.

I object. You falsely accused me of something, which was proven to be an incorrect action. You should apologize.

Hmmm...so after you have seen that at level 15 with the usual buffs or wbl stuff the monk is ahead now you wish to create a level 6 scenario where a caster class will get an advantage.

As I posted the level 6 challenge at the same time as your post, thus not seeing the levle 15 monk with the 'usual' buffs, and formulated the plan before posting whilst in a conversation with Nebo_, I think an apology for this mistake on your part is due.

[Sir Giacomo]

It's 30. He neglected to add in the wisdom penalty.

Yep, it's 30 - so best to have a DEX 8 instead of 10. There's no WIS penalty from half-orc

- Giacomo

[Solo]

The joker monk's speciality is to beat beatman (or rather: have a good chance doing so), at all levels. Not to outdamage the fighter or outgrapple a grapple-focused cleric of whoever.
Although he certainly is not that far behind in those aspects, either.

You... wrote a guide to playing monks that produces monks geared towards taking out wizards?

Okay....

[Solo]

Giacomo, one things bugs me.

What exactly makes the monk a less valuable member of the team when he can
- do great damage
- do great combat tactics (grapple, improved disarm, flyby attack, great move)
- be the one to be left standing after devastating spell attacks to save the others?
- have items in his possession that greaty synergise with/benefit also others in the group? (wands, pearls of power)
- can be a great scout?

How does the monk get a base flying speed for flyby attack?

[Talic]

- do great acceptable damage
- do greatmediocre combat tactics (grapple, improved disarm, flyby attack, great move)
- be the one to be left standing after devastating spell attacks to save the others?
- have items in his possession that greaty synergise with/benefit also others in the group? (wands, pearls of power)
- can be a greatmediocre scout? (lacking, of course, trap detection abilities)

This list is a case of: Pick one, fail at all the others.

Edited for correctness.

Also note, there are many classes that can have items in their posession that help others. They include such esteemed classes as commoner and expert.

The defenses cannot be done while maintaining offensive parity. The scouting cannot be done while maintaining offensive parity, and can never be done with the proficiency of the rogue.

Grapple and Improved Disarm are mediocre tactics at best, Improved Flyby can only be qualified for via item, which anyone can do, and movement is not a tactic. At best, it's a mediocre ability, as most combats take place in areas where movement is somewhat restricted.

Next?

[Solo]

Giacomo, I suggest you be patient while I am coming up with my cleric. After all, it took you 6 months to produce us a monk build for scrutiny.

Btw, you seem to have overlooked Nebo_'s post here. I link you to it now.

[Talic]

Yep, it's 30 - so best to have a DEX 8 instead of 10. There's no WIS penalty from half-orc

- Giacomo

So, then, no two weapon fighting, as you suggested?

An enlarged AC of 10? (-2 dex, +2 wis)

No con bonus?

This guy doesn't seem like a front line fighter to me.

He seems like a guy that deals three good hits and dies.

Just sayin.

Oh, and before you go all hide on me, you've got a dex of 6 and a -4 size penalty. At level 10, with max ranks, we're looking at +7. With skill focus AND sneaky, we're looking at +12. Hardly the uber-scout.

[Solo]

Well, as Giacomo said, since I showed him a fighter that could only do one thing, he has decided to show me up with a monk that could do only one thing.

Die.

[Sir Giacomo]

Heaven forbid I have a life so that I cannot devote my time to making characters on demand.
I shall put my Motorola internship aside for this challenge at once!

? Solo, seriously. It was YOU who came up with this idea. And now you backpedal and say, you do not really have the time for it?

When the monk is buffed up to heck, and the fighter has no buffs.

Sure. Enlarge person and +4 greater magic weapon are "no buffs".

Er, Giacomo, that's from someone else's post.

Huh? Just did the "reply" function. Anyhow, let's drop it then.

The fighter has 3 skill points per level, due to being human. Surely he can spare two for UMD? Not like he has anything better to do.

The moment he's human, he's 1 behind in STR. And to get that coveted higher caster level for a scroll for greater magic weapon, he'll need a much higher UMD than even the juker monk (DC 25 vs DC 20).

The fighter was never advertised as anything but a fighter. He's not supposed to fulfill other roles.

Well, that's something for a different thread, I think.
But your whole point to me appears to be:
"Hey, Giacomo, the monk is weak - the fighter outdamages him by far."
***proof shown that it is not so***
"OK, but...the fighter is weak to start with"***

Actually, I am waiting to see put up any kind of batman, of any level (OK, for now the non-9th level spellcasting ones) that would test the joker monk for what he is originally intended to do.
You do remember that I already once showed how easily a monk's defenses and a couple of items could thwart your Solorcerer's spell choices?

Ah, so you admit that you invest resources in the form of valuable feats and skill points into UMD?
Feats and skill points are valuable resources.

Yes, I invest feats. But it is 1) the stuff I get for it and 2) the PROPORTION of what
Similarly, your fighter example's 4 feats spent for +2 to hit and +4 damage are quite a steep cost.

Given that, unbuffed, you are inferior to a unbuffed, unoptimized fighter and buffed, slightly ahead, I don't think this supports your argument well.

Oh, it does. You see - you always need to compare the total outcome. When one key buff is out there that hardly benefits the fighter, but greatly helps the monk, of course I compare the after buff results.
And, btw, even in the unbuffed situation the fighter at level 15 has two attacks less, which tends to hurt his damage output total. With the same STR, and the monk having one weapon focus feat as well, this translates into 5 higher attack bonus for the fighter. And we have already seen that he needs to deduct 5 to get enough from his power attack to equate the monk's higher damage.

We have proven that a monk who sweats keeps up with your average fighter.
You call that enough?

"Sweat"? Average fighter? Well, the fighter you proposed showed the maximum possible damage bonus (full weapon spc, highest possible STR, enlarged greatsword and power attack). That is not "average".

I object. You falsely accused me of something, which was proven to be an incorrect action. Honor demands that you atone for your mistake in the form of an apology.

I apologise.

- Giacomo

[Sir Giacomo]

Why are you investing resources into a spiked chain when we're comparing grapple modifiers?

You'll see...

And why do you have that as your level 6 build?

Against a focused grapple cleric, a focused grapple monk seems fair.

Weren't you going to use the Joker?

See above.

And why does it only have 12 AC?

Because of its combat style. Actually, since I miscalculated the point buy, he has only 11 AC.

Plus, are you sure it's 28 point buy?
Corrected!

- Giacomo

[Kurald Galain]

Well, as Giacomo said, since I showed him a fighter that could only do one thing, he has decided to show me up with a monk that could do only one thing.

Die.

That's actually an awesome build option!!! Giaco-ma'ni finally made me realize something unique you can do when playing a monk that is allowed by no other character class!!!!!

Spoiler

Show

Get your character killed, then whine at your DM to let you play a super-powerful character, since your previous character was so utterly worthless. You know, for play balance.

[Solo]

Solo, seriously. It was YOU who came up with this idea. And now you backpedal and say, you do not really have the time for it?

Didn't it take you six months to give us a concrete character build, despite being asked for one constantly whenever you participated in a monk thread?

I can make a build, I just need time.

My internship with Motorola, you understand, takes priority.

Unless, of course, you were to pay me $150 per week?

Sure. Enlarge person and +4 greater magic weapon are "no buffs".

I only included Enlarge Person for the sake of comparison.

And a +4 sword is an item, not a buff.

Huh? Just did the "reply" function. Anyhow, let's drop it then.

I'll look over my posts, but I'm fairly sure I don't talk like that

"Sweat"? Average fighter? Well, the fighter you proposed showed the maximum possible damage bonus (full weapon spc, highest possible STR, enlarged greatsword and power attack). That is not "average".

First off, I did not factor in power attack.
Second, the average fighter will focus on Str, go the weapon focus tree (What else are you going to do with fighter bonus feats?) and have a greatsword.

Oh, it does. You see - you always need to compare the total outcome. When one key buff is out there that hardly benefits the fighter, but greatly helps the monk, of course I compare the after buff results.

In other words, you fight on terrain favorable to yourself.

And, btw, even in the unbuffed situation the fighter at level 15 has two attacks less, which tends to hurt his damage output total.

If you get Divine Power, I'm getting Haste.

or Uberhaste, if it exists.

Cuts down on the disparity, if that's your focus.

With the same STR, and the monk having one weapon focus feat as well, this translates into 5 higher attack bonus for the fighter. And we have already seen that he needs to deduct 5 to get enough from his power attack to equate the monk's higher damage.]

First off, since you miscalculated the fighter damage by 2 (Greater Weapon Specialization deals the +4 damage, but you forgot to account for Weapon Specialization, which give +2), he needs to PA slightly less.

I apologise.

Accepted. It was just a misunderstanding.

The moment he's human, he's 1 behind in STR. And to get that coveted higher caster level for a scroll for greater magic weapon, he'll need a much higher UMD than even the juker monk (DC 25 vs DC 20).

He gets a high UMD skill through synergy from Decipher Script, K. Arcana, and items such as a Circlet of Persuasion, a scroll of Eagle's Splendor, and a masterwork tool of UMD.

"Hey, Giacomo, the monk is weak - the fighter outdamages him by far."
***proof shown that it is not so***
"OK, but...the fighter is weak to start with"***

Er, Giacomo, you do realize that you monk loses in damage when a) unbuffed, and b)when both are buffed with Enlarge Person.

Actually, I am waiting to see put up any kind of batman, of any level (OK, for now the non-9th level spellcasting ones) that would test the joker monk for what he is originally intended to do.

I could probably guess how it would turn out.

Yes, I invest feats. But it is 1) the stuff I get for it and 2) the PROPORTION of what
Similarly, your fighter example's 4 feats spent for +2 to hit and +4 damage are quite a steep cost.

4 feats a steep cost to a fighter?

I have a few choice words for you, Giacomo.

Fighter Bonus Feats.

[Emperor Tippy]

? Solo, seriously. It was YOU who came up with this idea. And now you backpedal and say, you do not really have the time for it?

No, he is saying that at this exact moment in time (which is around 8 PM local for him IIRC) he doesn't have enough currently available free time to make a cleric build.

And stop adding your name to the end of every post, we know who you are and its just annoying.

[Sir Giacomo]

The monk is as good at damage as a bad fighter.

Wrong statement, as has been shown above. The monk focused on STR and damage is as good at damage or, buffed, even etter than a fighter focused on STR and damage.

The fighter has many feats at his disposal, which can open up many other options.

Whereas the monk has many class abilities and skills to choose from at his disposa, opening up many other options.

The monk has all his feats tied up in UMD (with that 6 cha, still not getting close to UMD a wand), all his stats tied up in physical damage, and all his skills tied up in UMD (what with that lovely int of 6).

Two feats used does not mean "all his feats tied up". I kindly ask to correct that wrong statement.
I am actually not even sure if that half-orc-STR-monk should take UMD at all.

In other words, the monk can do precisely squat other than what you built him to do, while the fighter still has feats at his disposal.

Completely and utterly wrong. Please read the class descriptions again. I could give the monk an INT of 6 and 8 in all other stats, and he'd retain ALL of his many class abilities.

Now, on this two-weapon-fighting thing.
Of course the monk can use his unarmed strike as an off-hand weapon, since SRD: "A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons."
The effects include feats.
And SRD: "An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon."
So, yes, two-weapon fighting feat tree is entirely possible.

So, if the half-orc monk player would go mental, he could do the following at higher levels:
Get the three feats from the two-weapon-fighting tree (he can put one stat gain to his enlarged form and eventually a +6 DEX item to get the 19 DEX)
And do, with boots of speed and divine power the following base attacks in level 16 (before STR, enhancement, haste bonus etc.)
+14/+14/+14/+14/+14/+9/+9/+4/+4/-1
A whopping 10 attacks. With 6d8 base damage each.
Have fun.

- Giacomo

[Solo]

I am actually not even sure if that half-orc-STR-monk should take UMD at all.

Then what does he do? Seems to me the half orc monk will die quickly and horribly.

(he can put one stat gain to his enlarged form and eventually a +6 DEX item to get the 19 DEX)

Can anyone tell me the problem with this idea?

+14/+14/+14/+14/+14/+9/+9/+4/+4/-1
A whopping 10 attacks. With 6d8 base damage each.

Is that enough to hit anything at level 16?

Completely and utterly wrong. Please read the class descriptions again. I could give the monk an INT of 6 and 8 in all other stats, and he'd retain ALL of his many class abilities.

Pitiful skills, and low save DCs for your abilities such as Quivering Palm and Stunning Fist.

But on the bright side, you can still talk with animals.

[Sir Giacomo]

And a +4 sword is an item, not a buff.

and

Not at all. The fighter UMD's a scroll of GMW.

I demand an apology!

Seriously, now. I'll wait for your level 6 grappling cleric build, however long it takes.
And you may note that it might have taken a bit longer to create a full guide, with a level 1-20 build that many demanded, with full equipment, than just post the grapple-relevant stats of a level 6 cleric build.

- Giacomo

[Emperor Tippy]

Actually, I am waiting to see put up any kind of batman, of any level (OK, for now the non-9th level spellcasting ones) that would test the joker monk for what he is originally intended to do.

....
You want to fight Cindy at level 16 (no 9th level spells)? If so I'm remove the house rule stuff from my level 16 build and you can have your challenge.

If you insist on core only (a stupid thing to insist) I can still do it. Moment of Prescience guarantees I go first and once I go I can neutralize the Joker in 1 round.

[Griffin131]

Yep. It's hard to be proven wrong.
UMD is cheap enough and hardly uses up any ressources for the great return it brings, and that has been shown already countless times. Maybe one day you'll accept it.
Here are the hard numbers again for the UMD trick
1/7 of the joker monk's skill points
1/4 of his freely available feats
roughly 1/3 of his wbl for consumable items.
0% of his choosable class abilities.

Stop here. (assuming Human below)
At level 15 your posted build uses 2/6 (33%) feats for UMD, 28/154 skill points (if I added right -- UMD, K:A, Spellcraft) (18%) and 57650gp out of 200k allowed (28.8%) You spent 0% of your class abilities on UMD because, well, you couldn't have spent them on UMD. Out of the 300% possible, you spent ~79%, which translates to ~26% of your available resources on UMD. You don't see literally one quarter of your build devoted to one thing as a massive expenditure? A UMD Rogue build would use 38/198 skill points (19%), 2/6 feats (33%) and if he spent the same amount on consumables+non consumables, that would be ~28%. He would be sitting at ~26% of his build dedicated to UMD, and thats with a UMD focus.

Like it or not, your build has a UMD focus.

Probably not for archery builds. But yes. The fighter trying to keep up in sheer damage output with the monk will tend to get unoptimised (the same if he wants to keep up in the grappling game - and fails, due to less no. of checks and less unarmed damage).

So if you optimize, your monk does better damage than an unoptimized fighter. You also use a pointless special attack better than a fighter. You win?

Check that joker monk build posted ages ago. If you wish to compare damage-specialised builds...well, "your" fighter does not fulfill exactly any other role, either. The half-orc specialised build at least still retains all of his other monk abilities (like better defenses, higher move etc.).

Better defenses is debateable, since.. your stats are so much lower (other than STR) with that build.

Yep, because with 1 skill point he all of a sudden uses also UMD for a level 3 scroll (which at that level btw he cannot achieve reliably, since it is DC 25 vs a wand's 20).

At level 15, your posted Orc build (which uses up far more of its resources for UMD since it has far fewer skill points [77% of skill points, so 46% of overall resources]) has a UMD check of +18 (Your posted lvl 15 build is off btw, should be +20). The Fighter has at least 1 more skill point/level, probably more since he wants to take things like Improved Trip, so devotes less resources and has (holy crap) the same chances of activating a wand (which, since its a level 3 spell, you can do) (or, actually higher since its unlikely that the Fighter would choose to put -2 into CHR).

Ach, Solo, is it so hard to change your ways? The monk class is about as good in damage output as a fighter at that level - and look at what else the monk at that level can do and what the fighter with his remaining feats can do! Both can achieve still some remarkable exploits with their remaining stuff, meaning a lot of fun to play.

Correction: The optimized monk class is about as good in damage output as the unoptimized fighter class at that level. And remember, you're arguing that monks are good, not that they're similar to the worst class in the PHB.

When are you going to admit that BAB != FoBaB?

edit:

And you may note that it might have taken a bit longer to create a full guide, with a level 1-20 build that many demanded, with full equipment, than just post the grapple-relevant stats of a level 6 cleric build.

Actually, you posted 20 builds, one for every level, because of the partial wands. A 1-20 build shows progression. (IE you buy a wand full one level, and the next level you show it having fewer charges).

[Sir Giacomo]

....
You want to fight Cindy at level 16 (no 9th level spells)? If so I'm remove the house rule stuff from my level 16 build and you can have your challenge.

If you insist on core only (a stupid thing to insist) I can still do it. Moment of Prescience guarantees I go first and once I go I can neutralize the Joker in 1 round.

Core only is not stupid to insist, since otherwise the match would be decided by who has more splatbooks and rules expansions, and would not prove whether a class is weak by itself already in the core rules.

And: MoP is not added to an initiative roll.

Could you post your core level 16 wizard as I did my level 16 monk? (though, just as for the joker monk, it would be OK to leave some room open for the wbl for "some nasty surprises"

- Giacomo

[Bearonet]

A monk focusing purely on Strength would never make it past level 1, let alone level 2, let alone beyond 5, let alone to high levels... at which he'd still die. I've seen it tried; the results are messy! Cleaning monk out of your outfit isn't easy, even Prestidigitation doesn't do it.

www.d20srd.org has a monster filter: http://www.penpaperpixel.org/tools/d20monsterfilter/

Looking up CR 16-18 enemies, they have ACs like 30, 32, 29, 35...
They also have damage reduction, which is hell on multiple-attack-reliant characters.

Suffice it to say, a +16 attack bonus is NOT enough at level 16!

[Talic]

Oh, my bad, while the grapple monk with 74 hp at level 10 (assuming 1st 2 hd max, rest 75%) does have an overall AC of 11, he has a touch AC of 10, and abysmal hide abilities.

I forgot the Nat armor bonus and size penalty. I also left off the static monk AC bonus.

However, what this means is that:

A wizard with Maximize spell and scorching ray will be doing 64 damage at level 10, for an average of putting you at death's door.

A strength based CR 10 monster, the Fire Giant, will be able to do an average of 47.5 damage in the opening round of the attack, by power attacking for 11, and will STILL hit on a 2.

If it happens to get a full attack (bear in mind that beefy +25 to grapple),
You are looking at, with a power attack for 8, damage as such:

Hits on a 2 for 41 damage.
Hits on a 4 for 41 damage.
Hits on a 9 for 41 damage.

In other words, you get 2 shotted.

Against a hydra? 11 heads?

Standard attack: 11 bites, all have a 95% hit chance. Average of 11 damage. Result: Monk dead.

Against a Noble Salamander? See fire giant, except this one specializes in grapple, and has a BAB 15, DR, and SLA's.

Let's not even go into the Legendary Tiger, Bebilith, or Monstrous Scorpion (Gargantuan). All will destroy the monk in one round.

In other words, congrats, you get 39 damage for a round, and then an opportunity to roll up a new character.

[Sir Giacomo]

OK, trying again to correct some misunderstandings.

Stop here. (assuming Human below)
At level 15 your posted build uses 2/6 (33%) feats for UMD, 28/154 skill points (if I added right -- UMD, K:A, Spellcraft) (18%) and 57650gp out of 200k allowed (28.8%) You spent 0% of your class abilities on UMD because, well, you couldn't have spent them on UMD. Out of the 300% possible, you spent ~79%, which translates to ~26% of your available resources on UMD. You don't see literally one quarter of your build devoted to one thing as a massive expenditure? A UMD Rogue build would use 38/198 skill points (19%), 2/6 feats (33%) and if he spent the same amount on consumables+non consumables, that would be ~28%. He would be sitting at ~26% of his build dedicated to UMD, and thats with a UMD focus.
Like it or not, your build has a UMD focus.

Like it or not, the build USES UMD, but does it FOCUS on it? (i.e. specialisation which leaves other areas wide open?) I do not think so.
Anyhow, probably that's simply definitions of what we mean.
I would say, yes, what makes the joker monk "new" is his use of UMD as an ADDITIONAL source for his buffs. The other thing that is "new" is the kind of buff he uses to achieve quite remarkable results in SYNERGY with his class abilities.
UMD adds MUCH to his power, although there are strong monk builds possible
without UMD.

So if you optimize, your monk does better damage than an unoptimized fighter. You also use a pointless special attack better than a fighter. You win?

The fighter was optimsed for damage as well. And thanks for bringing it up - yes, the monk then has both stunning fist and quivering palm ON TOP of his damage output that the fighter has not.

Better defenses is debateable, since.. your stats are so much lower (other than STR) with that build.

Both fighter and monk in that contest were assumed to have the same amount of point buy and stat gain going to STR, so there other abilities were actually quite similar (only that the fighter had to overcome MAD to get DEX 15 for being enlarged).

At level 15, your posted Orc build (which uses up far more of its resources for UMD since it has far fewer skill points [77% of skill points, so 46% of overall resources]) has a UMD check of +18 (Your posted lvl 15 build is off btw, should be +20). The Fighter has at least 1 more skill point/level, probably more since he wants to take things like Improved Trip, so devotes less resources and has (holy crap) the same chances of activating a wand (which, since its a level 3 spell, you can do) (or, actually higher since its unlikely that the Fighter would choose to put -2 into CHR).

This assums that the half-orc build version had UMD. I would not see that as an automatic choice, since he's very powerful and ready to play already without it.

Correction: The optimized monk class is about as good in damage output as the unoptimized fighter class at that level. And remember, you're arguing that monks are good, not that they're similar to the worst class in the PHB.

Sigh. The fighter WAS optimised for damage output. And I am not saying taht the monks are better than other classes, only that they are equally strong in their own way.

When are you going to admit that BAB != FoBaB?

As long as both RAW and FAQ are on my side, there's no need to.

- Giacomo