Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

[Covered In Bees]

Well in that case, of course!
Due to my experience, though, I hardly ever even hint that a monk build of mine uses morph stuff - and once a druid can use it, so should the monk (theoretically).

- Giacomo

If you can't tell the difference between Wild Shape and Polymorph, you may need glasses.

[Stupendous_Man]

fwiw, my dm determines the charges on a partially used wand we get randomly if we kill someone for it, and if we buy it, the shop inventory of used items is determined randomly

[Covered In Bees]

fwiw, my dm determines the charges on a partially used wand we get randomly if we kill someone for it, and if we buy it, the shop inventory of used items is determined randomly

The odds of a DM randomly rolling a 5-charge Wand of Bull's Strength (for example): not good.

[AmberVael]

Well in that case, of course!
Due to my experience, though, I hardly ever even hint that a monk build of mine uses morph stuff - and once a druid can use it, so should the monk (theoretically).

- Giacomo

Well of course, but a Monk doesn't have easy access to it.
Especially in such situations like... you know... not having any equipment, like the situation detailed above.

[Sir Giacomo]

.
Level 20 fighter using club: 1d6 damage.
Level 20 monk using fist: 2d10 damage.

Level 20 fighter using club and power attack and strength in two hands (18): 1d6+16 (damage range: 17-22. Average roll: 19.5)
Level 20 monk using fist strength (18): 2d10+4 (Damage range: 6-24. Average roll: 15)

That's not including any other abilities the fighter may have. Just power attack at -5 to put his attack bonus on par with the monk's. The monk will get more attacks, yes- two at this point, at no penalty, but I'm pretty sure the fighter will have other tricks up his sleeve too, considering the blatant and disgusting number of feats he has.

Just correcting ....:
The level 20 monk STR 18 unarmed damage is 4d8 (improved natural attack). So average 22 damage per hit (and he has +19/+19/+19/+14/+9 for attack). Plus, he can add stunning fist and/or quivering palm on top.
The level 20 fighter STR 18 club damage indeed is average 20 (so it is lower, even with power attack), and the no. of attacks is lower, with lower to hit at only +19/+14/+9/+4(!).
He'll have to have quite a few feats to enhance his club effectiveness in core to make up for being behind the monk so far.

Apart from this, please let us not continue this "who fares best in a capture situation" thing. I took it just as a half-serious excercise of Frost and myself.
- of course casters in situations without items still have their spells (without material components) which they have prepared/can still cast spontaneously. A cleric may have most problems of the casters due to his holy symbole, but a druid of course should also not have many issues in such a situation (once freed, that is).
- of course a monk then in turn is the best among the non-caster classes, since he is built around unarmed and unarmoured fighting.

- Giacomo

[Sir Giacomo]

The odds of a DM randomly rolling a 5-charge Wand of Bull's Strength (for example): not good.

The odds of a DM randomly rolling a ring of freedom of movement, or ring of invisbility: even worse

- Giacomo

[Stupendous_Man]

The odds of a DM randomly rolling a ring of freedom of movement, or ring of invisbility: even worse

- Giacomo

so that's why wizards take crafting feats.

[Kurald Galain]

THIS IS YOUR STRATEGY? THIS is what your entire BUILD depends on?!

HOW DID THIS THREAD LAST THIS LONG?

Because of repetitiveness.

[Kurald Galain]

THIS IS YOUR STRATEGY? THIS is what your entire BUILD depends on?!

HOW DID THIS THREAD LAST THIS LONG?

Because of repetitiveness.


To cive a few examples from the first page of responses, "this is an impractical and backwards attempt at optimisation", "Just try not to include any obvious untruths, like ... you can obviously buy any number of wands in any number of charges", "If only Giacomo's Monks got Black Belt's ability to ignore the rules of the game so long as he wasn't aware of them", "And thus, another round of Sir Giacomo's battle against Logic, Rules and Hard, Cold Facts begins. You can't deny him persistence."

So yeah, because of repetitiveness.

[Caros]

Hello again,

First, @Caros: time stop yields a minimum of 2 rounds. On the rest...hmm, I guess it is really tricky (personally I do not like this non-core celerity stuff for that reason; note also that the joker monk could get that with UMD). My ruling as a DM would be to only take what the foresight spell writes and not allow a casting of the immediate action in the surprise round, since there is not any. The actions of the combat start in round 1, when AMF is already active. An immediate action celerity can interrupt someone else winning initiative (and no-one will get a surprise round against you, due to foresight).
And I also wonder whether mind blank on the monk vs foresight would be of help until AMF is up?
It's a difficult call. But luckily the joker monk guide is based on core rules only.

Alright, at the moment at least, I'm just going to address the stuff directed at me really quickly since I don't have the time to write pages today. ^_^

First, I really need to sleep before posting. Can't believe the timestop error as that is a classic spell. *Smashes head on wall.*

Secondly, Foresight should not be affected by mindblank, at least by my reading. The deciding point on foresight comes in how it acts. Foresight is a sixth sense that affects you and points out things that are going to happen to you. In this case, it doesn't tell me that you are going to appear and brutalize me, it tells me, in vague terms "You are in danger, antimagic field, run away!"

Thirdly, my problem with the "Timestop, teleport etc." arguement, is that you're saying that combat starts in round one, when combat technically starts in round -1 when you start casting spells.

Hell, technically initiative is rolled the second the monk begins to cast, as thus:

Monk: I'm going to cast....
DM: Whoh. You're aware of the mage. The mage's foresight warns him of danger, meaning that he is now aware. True he can't see you or know where you are, but since he knows there is a fight/danger about to happen, roll for initiative.
Wizard: Eat it!

Alright, and last but not least. Guys, keep it civil. Seriously. I know tempers flare, but saying "I don't care about the forum rules"? Yeah... nuff of that.

[Kurald Galain]

Wizard: Eat it!

Those are the vocal components for Otto's Irresistible Dance, are they not?

[Covered In Bees]

The odds of a DM randomly rolling a ring of freedom of movement, or ring of invisbility: even worse

- Giacomo

...no, they're better.
Because those things are actually, you know, in the DMG.

What's more, as nice as a Ring of FoM is to have, there is no class that relies on it.

You, on the other hand, rely COMPLETELY on your partially charged wands. Because otherwise, you'd have to pick one level 2 wand at level 6 or so, one level 3 wand at level 10 or so, etc.

So what do you have to say for yourself? Your entire build is founded on something that is NOT in the rules and does NOT happen in games.



If you KNOW the rules don't say you get partially charged wands except at creation, and you KNOW that this doesn't happen in game, then WHY are you writing a guide so heavily based on these partially charged wands?

[Stupendous_Man]

Those are the vocal components for Otto's Irresistible Dance, are they not?

should be more like

"we're no strangers to looooove
you know the rules, and so do i"

[Covered In Bees]

Those are the vocal components for Otto's Irresistible Dance, are they not?

No, those would be Night fever, night fever...

[AmberVael]

Just correcting ....:
The level 20 monk STR 18 unarmed damage is 4d8 (improved natural attack). So average 22 damage per hit (and he has +19/+19/+19/+14/+9 for attack). Plus, he can add stunning fist and/or quivering palm on top.
The level 20 fighter STR 18 club damage indeed is average 20 (so it is lower, even with power attack), and the no. of attacks is lower, with lower to hit at only +19/+14/+9/+4(!).
He'll have to have quite a few feats to enhance his club effectiveness in core to make up for being behind the monk so far.

Apart from this, please let us not continue this "who fares best in a capture situation" thing.

I will stop, after pointing out a few things:
As many feats as a monk can take to increase his damage, the fighter can also add.
I think "11 fighter bonus feats and 7 regular feats- minus one for having power attack" giving us a total of 17 feats, will allow the fighter to catch up a bit, no?
A fighter can get Improved Grapple, Stunning Fist, Deflect Arrows, Combat expertise, cleave, great cleave, and many, many things to improve his options and/or damage. The Horizon Tripper build that someone posted a while back (completely core, I might add), would still be fairly effective without magic items, just because of the abilities they gain.
Other classes can be effective without equipment. With equipment, they can improve far beyond the capabilities of the monk.

[Signmaker]

Quite the contrary, the joker monk's possessions are widely spread; with few items at each respective level really expensive. Some clasess like the wizard (spellbook(s)), fighters (their main enchanted weapon) etc are more dependent on one single item getting lost, I daresay.
But losing items is bad for all characters, not just the monk.

- Giacomo

Wizard: No. Craft Feats, Extra Spellbooks, Spell Mastery (Hey, it's not too far from the truth). If you go out of core (I apologize), the wizard can pick up Alchemist Savant as a PrC and just by crafting Acid flasks, make hundreds of GP per week. Staying in core, they simply suck up the exp loss and craft magic items for gp. Or, you know, for themselves.

What I find interesting is that by level, Wizards actually have the most wealth. Take it from a previous bard player: Perform checks (which monks have, by the way) have NUTHIN on Alchemy or Magical Crafting in general. Sure, wizards lose EXP by crafting magic items, but that actually increases their by-level wealth. Momentarily? Sure, a wizard might be deprived of an item. But as a nother poster said, teleport-grabbackup-portback is an option that is fully within the wizard's power. Unless they happen to be under an AMF. Which is an entirely different story.

Fighter: You kind of have a point here. Losing your +3 Sword of SlashyAwesome half-way through a campaign does hurt. Of course, they won't be crippled. As usual, the majority of fighter damage comes from two-handed power attack, and not the base damage. However, yes, losing an item worth 18k tends to hurt. You know what else does? 18k worth of consumables, being spent over the course of a campaign. Badumptish.

Etc.: I don't know what you mean by etc classwise, so let's go list sommoar classes!

Barbarian: See above, add rage to the mix, minus the fighter feats.
Bard: Voice still here? Check. Spontaneous buffs still here? Check. Fifth Wheel effectiveness? Checkety Check Check. I only usually see Static Bonus items being tacked on a bard. Losing one or two static bonuses doesn't really hurt
Cleric: Wood symbol is whittleable. Armor can be substituted by buffs, Weapon not required because a cleric can cast. Again, static bonuses ahoy ahoy. Seeing as I've only played low-level clerics, I may easily be wrong here.
Druid: The one class that's hugging trees, being one with nature, needing items? Pshaw.

That's enough for now. The point I'm trying to make is this: while you can argue that a wizard or fighter is more dependant on single items (not really, but it's still arguable), your monk is dependant on a line of one-shot items. You can deny it, and oh you will, but the fact is, to 'wholly' contribute (that is, to be effective in what you do to git er dun), you WILL spend charges. Again, the exact cost is not easily determinable, murky waters and all, but as you've said, you can spend 1000 1st level charges without much impact on your permanant items. That's still 15k you don't have anymore.

[Sir Giacomo]

No, there's a party fighting a group of opponents at level 2. The fighter engages one, trips it, and hits it for 2d4+8.The wizard uses Color Spray to take two more out. The rogue throws a dagger and misses. The cleric either casts bless, or goes over to the creature the fighter tripped, flanks, and swings his mace. What does your monk do?

The monk likely went before one of his team members and grappled one of the opponents, possibly the one that the rogue missed, offering him a sneak attack thusly in round 1 (if the rogue delayed), or round 2. Where is your problem here? And, btw, if you assume the fighter level 2 has improved trip, he'll need an INT of 13, which may be hurting if he is a high STR-build and also needs good DEX, CON and WIS (for higher will save). Just saying.

If you ever play Dungeons & Dragons, you'll see that expecting every encounter to have an Encounter Level equal to your levelis foolish. Characters are expected to regularly deal with enemies a point or two of CR above them (and sometimes even 3 or 4). A CR 6 enemy is supposed to take 20% of the party's resources--or rather, be overcome fairly easily.

No, this is a big fallacy. Characters are expected to have encounters with CR sometimes above, their level, sometimes below, sometimes around their level. But they are not assumed to fight CR above their level most of the time. And EVEN IF they would, then such opponents would not usually outnumber the pc (making grappling once again a viable strategy).

HOW DID THIS THREAD LAST THIS LONG?

Because of posts like yours. Seriously. Why do you oppose it so much? Is it so hard to admit that you are wrong -or that there may be aspects useful to your game that you have so far overlooked?

Okay, let's do this quickly: your entire build is based around PARTIALLY CHARGED WANDS (I can't believe it. So damn ridiculous), even though buying them is, even YOU admit, "not completely RAW"?

Once again: only the part of ongoing campaigns is "not completely RAW". The part for creating higher level pcs is definitely RAW.
And you know what? The only thing that changes if only full charged wands were availabel for sale (the strange logic! Noone in your campaign world would ever sell a wand he has not used up completely) would be the following:
You would get some magical effets at later levels. Most of the key buffs (enlarge, obscuring mist, mage armour) are FIRST LEVEL WANDS. For 750 gp each. Yep, that's completely ridiculous to ever admit as part of a build for a DM, but a multiclass/prestigeclass shapeshifting non-core combo is definitely OK with all DM's? Come on.

First of all, let's go over the point of that rule very quickly. That rule exists because when you create a character at level X, he has a history. He's been adventuring for a while. As a result, he might use a wand, and therefore he might have a wand he's already used part of the way up.
This means that he should have been able to buy the wand at some point in the past. You don't get to buy a 1-charge level 4 wand and have a level 4 spell at level 2. "Black tentacles! We win."

And interestingly, you'll never find any spell in wands or scroll used by the joker monk that would be above the level of a same level caster to cast. Exactly because most DMs would not allow that (like the candle of invocation thing for a low-level group). Plus, normally, it is also simply too inefficient. You shine for one big moment, possibly wasting it against some minions, and the rest of the time you do not have any magic items. Cool.

That aside, let's say some DM follows nothing but the exact letter of the RAW, and lets you have whatever partially charged wands when you make the character.
The rules sure as hell DON'T say you can buy 1-charge, 2-charge, etc wands of whatever you want whenever you want.

No, they simply say, that you can buy partially charged wands and provide linear rule for pricing them. They say nothing about exceptions. Or you would assume that all pcs immediately drop dead in the game because nothing says that they get breathing as racial ability.

The only real way to get partially charged wands is to kill people and take their wands. And you're still limited to the spell/number of charges that they were carrying.
Trying to argue that just because you find a 49-charge wand of Doom (the enemy used a charge in the encounter)and get to sell it, you should be able to buy a wand of any spell you like is so mindbogglingly stupid I'm surprised you're trying it.

I see that you have no idea about how economics work. Simple hint: once you can sell it, you can also buy it.

It's also not in the rules. If you're claiming RAW, then you only get partially charged wands at creation. This fits with the dozens of D&D games I've played in. If you ever play D&D, you'll discover the same thing.

Now I'm just amazed---you have seen this partially charged wand thing in play often...so why do you make such a fuss about it?

So, what it boils down to is that your entire build DEPENDS, desperately, on partially charged wands.
Therefore, it only works if you are creating it at level X. It can't work as part of an actual game.

It does not depend on it.

No, you didn't. You said "well, activate it before combat."
So how do you activate any wands in combat with a +5 modifier? Or even a +9?

I did. Hide. Obscuring Mist (horn of fog provides a safe one). Move (silently) after each activation attempt.

I'll take the guy swinging at +7 for 2d6+6 (or at +5 for 2d6+10) over your +1/+1 flurry any day, especially since you won't always get to flurry, and he doesn't need any buffs to do his thing.

Which is the reason why the monk will simply grapple your guy swinging at +7, because that becomes +3 all of a sudden, his TH weapon is useless in a grapple, as is his high AC/hvy armour, and his damage is reduced to only 1d3 plus X in a grapple. The monk has different combat tactics to that of a fighter or barbarian. Which is what the guide is about (in part).

He gets a swing with a weapon he's not proficient in. He doesn't get two--movement only provokes a single AoO per person. That's not going to help. Swinging a chain at +0 is a desperate attempt, not a reliable strategy.

Not reliable strategy? The monk will be able to disarm someone at level 6 with a +15 bonus, in a range of 20ft, even flat-footed. Twice as an AoO per round. That is not too shabby.

The party usually has a rogue. The rogue scouts. This does not guarantee surprise; far from it. Often, it only serves to prevent the party from *being* surprised.

When the party has a rogue, then the monk will take on more of the fighting - plus provide many sneak opportunities for his rogue buddy (move/tumble/flank, grapple, stun).

Usually, nobody gets a surprise round. This is doubly true for groups who don't want to wait for the rogue to walk slowly far ahead of the group all the time, but even with a constantly active scout, enemies will spot the scout, enemies won't be somewhere the scout sees (opening a closed door makes them notice you) or will be seeing the party (outdoors--open areas).

Too bad then, that you just declared the rogue useless as a scout class. Or you don't, but then the monk can also do it.

Don't get me wrong: scouting is useful. But pretending that you will always have the advantage? Ridiculous. It happens sometimes--but usually, you're on neutral terms.

So you think scouting will be done all the time even though it only "sometimes" provides an advantage? Wow. Just wow.

So why don't you tell me what you do when you AREN'T aware of enemies who haven't you. Other characters can handle this (wizards, clerics, etc have a one-round combat buff time). Stop pretending the situation won't come up. It will. Often. It's the default.

OK, if it's the default in your games that the group gets surprised, then the wizards and unarmoured casters will not survive for long. Plus, the monk, thanks to combat reflexes and the rogue thanks to uncanny dodge, will be the only ones with some chance to react. And the high AC/hp types will have a chance.

So what is?

Hmmm. A monk outnumbered will outrun the opponents and deal with them one at a time (think John Rambo...). At higher levels, the eversmoking bottle/blindfight/listen/movesilently combo is ideal for that.

Not very likely.
How likely is it that one of the orcs chops the monk in half when the monk grapples the orc nearest him? VERY likely. Such a tempting target.

Well, the nature of combat is such that it is highly unpredictable. So said orc will move away from the cleric he fights to make use of this opportunity? He could get hit an AoO by other party members, possbily. And for the cost of one hit against him, the monk has just freed one of his party spellcasters to cast freely against said orc or other opponent. Yep, I'd call that contributing. Grappling basically can mean to act like a true tank: luring/forcing enemies to deal with you instead of the more fragile group members.

The problem is that you've already basically acknowledged that to make it work, you need to use partially charged wands.
If you were to play a game of Dungeons and Dragons, you'd discover that this. Never. Ever. Happens. Oh, you can get a wand with 25 charges when you make a character, sure. But if you honestly expect any DM to let you buy a wand with 5 charges of some spell just because you want it, you're fooling yourself.

If you'd ever play DD 3.5 by the rules as written, you'd be surprised that.this.happens.a.lot. Or should, since I argue that it provides so many benefits.

(PROTIP: If they meant AMF to be a spell cast on non-casters, they'd have made it Touch range.)

Oh, they do not put all in the rules as superobvious. Sometimes you have to search for the hidden gems... But frankly, outside of the box AMF for a spellcaster seems stupid. But then the mind starts to work...how to get it to non-spellcasters to use vs spellcasters? Hmmm....

- Giacomo

[Sir Giacomo]

so that's why wizards take crafting feats.

Provided the DM provides them with the time and safe place to make those items. Not commonplace in all campaigns.

- Giacomo

[Nebo_]

{Scrubbed}

[Stupendous_Man]

Because of posts like yours. Seriously. Why do you oppose it so much? Is it so hard to admit that you are wrong -or that there may be aspects useful to your game that you have so far overlooked?

umm... giacomo, you're opening up a can of worms

[Stupendous_Man]

Provided the DM provides them with the time and safe place to make those items. Not commonplace in all campaigns.

- Giacomo

that's like saying to your monk "only if hte dm allows hte monk time to find a magic shop"


if the dm acitvely works against you, nothings going to get done whatever your class is

[Arakune]

"Monk is so awesome cause he can do stuff without any equipment!"

Sorcerer: I cast X and own.
Yes, when you have relearned and rested, or happen to have some spare spells remaining. And when you cast without material components (remarkably many good spells need those).

No, if there is any feat a sorcerer should pick (since metamagic for then is out), is eschew material components. It even mix well with the 'talent and inner power' aspect of sorcerer.

Fighter: I pick up a club or a sword of a fallen enemy.
Yep, a club. There goes that weapon specialisation bonus. And you still do less damage than the monk, with less attacks. And where is your armour? Oh, you do not have any AC bonus without equipment? Too bad. Ohhh, look - it's creatures with damage reduction/magic. Ooopsy.

If it's level 1-3, power attack will do. If it's level 4+, still power attack will do. He will be still hitting more than you (since he have higher BAB, higher STR), may have as much options as you or more (bonus feats) and be reasonably decent. When he get his equipment back, he will be back at being much more effective than the monk.

Cleric: I'm whittling my Holy symbol.
Material components? Armour? Weapons? And where will you find a holy symbol of your god in the first place in your enemy's camp?

Most of the clerics spells don't have material components, he is proficient with all simple weapons so he can improvise something (a spear?), and maybe he can improvise his holy symbol (DM fiat, but still). Also, depending of the domain the cleric chose, he may have one different tricks. In terms of effectiveness (depending of his build), only marginally criped.

Druid: I transform into a bear and then buff. Later I'll find some mistle toe and be just as good.CHEESE ALARM FOR USING MORPH STUFF!

It's not cheese any more than the fact that he is a FU#$!&* ! DAMN!! DRUID!!!

Barbarian: WAAHG!
1d3 + STR dmg, non-lethal. WHAAG. indeed.

He may get a club (same as a fighter), then go for his 1d6 + STR + PA + RAGE or a greatclub for 1d(how much?) +STR*1,5 + PA + RAGE. Also, he is hitting more often than the monk with his higher BAB and STR (like the fighter).

Wizard: I cast Teleport or use my Teleport SLA and pick up one of my 500 Secret Page copies of my spellbook.
See ya! Meanwhile, your comrades die...

Then you have no problem with the wizard having his Teleport SLA? Okay.

Teleport->Get reinforcements/backup items ->Teleport back.

If can't do anything because he is low level, if he have an familiar he can work out something, but anyone knows a wizard is a commoner with a better will save without his spell book at low levels or when he depleted most of his spells.

Upon freeing themselves, half the PHB classes become better then the Monk within a minute, if not immediately.
Nope, they don't. I would never say they're useless. But they do not get better than the monk.

Debatable. (Just because you are still debating, and non core you can work out something in a build, but most of these only have 4-6 level of monk)

Yes you could say they are level 1 or 5 or whatever to remove some of these options, but nothing changes the fact that a Fighter or Barbarian with a Non-Magic Club is actually a much better fighter than an itemless Monk.
Ah, another one of those "facts".
Please. Look at the damage a club does, and the damage a monk does (including the flurry ability). It even gets worse, the higher the level. In fact, I'd say you only have point at low levels in this - and even then fighter or barbarian would need to find a club in the first place (and what about those other combat needs, like AC?).
- Giacomo

16th level, without any item.

Fighter: BAB 16, Str 18-20, found a "club" (anything with the size of a baseball bat), use it two handed.

Barbarian: BAB 16, Str 20-22, found a "club" (anything with the size of a baseball bat), use it two handed.

Monk: BAB 12, Str 16-18, bare hands.

Now, going for the MIN possible for each class, against AC 30:

Fighter, hit: 16+4 = 20. Need 10+ to hit (55%);
Fighter, damage: 1d6 + 4*1.5 = 10,5;
Barbarian, hit: 16+5 = 21. Need 9+ to hit (60%);
Barbarian, damage: 1d6 + 4*1.5 = 10,5;
Monk, hit: 12+3 = 15. Need 15+ to hit (30-35%)
Monk, damage: 2d8 + 3 = 19,5

The monk hit much less, but does more damage, so it's even out. Full attack? How many chances you have to full attack?


Now, going for the MAX possible for each class, against AC 30:

Fighter, hit: 16+5 = 20. Need 9+ to hit (60%);
Fighter, damage: 1d6 + 5*1.5 = 11;
Barbarian, hit: 16+6 = 22. Need 8+ to hit (65%);
Barbarian, damage: 1d6 + 5*1.5 = 11;
Monk, hit: 12+4 = 16. Need 14+ to hit (35-40%)
Monk, damage: 2d8 + 4 = 20,5

4,5 + 5*15

Your monk is still hitting less and the damage gain is only one point of damage.

What do we learn? That a fighter and a barbarian without any gear deal as much damage as a monk without any gear.

Give the fighter and the barbarian a spear (easiest THD weapon to make) and they can use PA for -1/+2 and hit as much as your monk and deal as much damage as your monk (only 0,5-1 point of difference).

[Worira]

(Bruce Lee, after all, also had great reach and STR and grappling advantage, even though he was not all of a sudden 3 metres tall).

Uh, no.needsmoarwords

[AmberVael]

[The rules] say nothing about exceptions. Or you would assume that all pcs immediately drop dead in the game because nothing says that they get breathing as racial ability.

I just can't help but laugh when picturing this.

DM: None of you can breathe, you all die, roll up new characters.
Player 1: But... but...
Player 2: *sighs and starts rolling up another character*

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

I just can't help but laugh when picturing this.

DM: None of you can breathe, you all die, roll up new characters.
Player 1: But... but...
Player 2: *sighs and starts rolling up another character*

Now, if player two actually starts rolling a new character after that they might deserve what they got.


But it is actually specified that breathing is a trait precisely because, as is pointed out by Signmakerens below, some types do not need to breathe.

Humanoids breathe, eat, and sleep

The point is of course moot, since the DM in question obviously lacks some maturity and will end up ruining the game in any case.

[Signmaker]

I just can't help but laugh when picturing this.

DM: None of you can breathe, you all die, roll up new characters.
Player 1: But... but...
Player 2: *sighs and starts rolling up another character*

Player3: HAH! My race is such that I don't NEED to breathe!

[Morty]

Because of posts like yours. Seriously. Why do you oppose it so much? Is it so hard to admit that you are wrong -or that there may be aspects useful to your game that you have so far overlooked?

Great advice. Why don't you follow it yourself? So far, you're the one who rejects any possibility of being wrong about any aspect of the game. Arrogant remarks are an added bonus.

[Stupendous_Man]

Player3: HAH! My race is such that I don't NEED to breathe!

hey! it doesn't say humans *need* to breath either!

[Worira]

Also, PCs do get breathing as a racial ability, unless they're constructs, elementals, or undead. Every other type has breathing as a racial trait. If you're going to make an example of "rules absurdity", at least pick something that the rules don't actually cover.

[Covered In Bees]

Also, PCs do get breathing as a racial ability, unless they're constructs, elementals, or undead. Every other type has breathing as a racial trait. If you're going to make an example of "rules absurdity", at least pick something that the rules don't actually cover.

It says they DO breathe. It doesn't say they NEED to.