Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

[Kurald Galain]

- a crossbow bolt is 1d8 damage, 2d6 enlarged. And be warned to use a phantom steed (superior move) to evade combat and come back with a vengeance - Kurald Galain does not approve of such tactics...

Do not presume to speak for me. It is generally considered very rude and condescending to put words into somebody's mouth.

[Sir Giacomo]

Medium BAB and nonproficiency... you're not gonna hit much with that crossbow.

The phantom steed's AC is 18. That's a good chance to hit with the +9 crossbow attack bonus of the enlarged monk at level 10.

- Giacomo

[Sir Giacomo]

Do not presume to speak for me. It is generally considered very rude and condescending to put words into somebody's mouth.

So you approve of tactics to evade an opponent with a higher movement?

- Giacomo

[Solo]

UNARMED ATTACK: +10 (+10/+10/+5); Damage 2d8 +3, 3d8+4 enlarged

This is at level 10, pre buffed.

+3 from Str, +7 from BaB. Divine Power gets you +13 total by giving you better BaB.

A melee build will generally have more than that: Barbarians with 20 STR and maybe a item of +4 will have 10+5+2+2(raging)=19.

A Fighter might have the Weapon Focus tree, giving him roughly the same attack bonus.

6 points of difference. You're outclassed.

[Solo]

The phantom steed's AC is 18. That's a good chance to hit with the +9 crossbow attack bonus of the enlarged monk at level 10.

- Giacomo

Of course, you'll be about 50-200 feet away from it, so I'd factor that into your calculations.

And while you're plinking at it with roughly a 50% chance of hitting, I'll be casting Baleful Polymorph on you.

Yep, do that. Outcome uncertain, though.

I have a 70% chance of turning you into a squirrel.

[SamTheCleric]

The phantom steed's AC is 18. That's a good chance to hit with the +9 crossbow attack bonus of the enlarged monk at level 10.

- Giacomo

60% is not a "good chance"

[Sir Giacomo]

You can't rely on fighting casters all the time, Gia, that's the trouble, and that's why people don't play spellthieves.

Actually the build does not "rely" on that. It is in addition to filling the party role of a monk as outlined by the PHB.

And with that, at long last, I conclude for today.

- Giacomo

[Sir Giacomo]

Only Solo can raise me back from the dea...er work.

This is at level 10, pre buffed.

+3 from Str, +7 from BaB. Divine Power gets you +13 total by giving you better BaB.

A melee build will generally have more than that: Barbarians with 20 STR and maybe a item of +4 will have 10+5+2+2(raging)=19.

A Fighter might have the Weapon Focus tree, giving him roughly the same attack bonus.

6 points of difference. You're outclassed.

Yes. At level 10, when I said in the build and guide that the monk will rely on stealth tactics instead of full combat.

Again:
Level 1-8 Grapple tactics for combat
Levels 9-10 Stealth/scout tactics with occasional fighting
Levels 11& up: Back in business with monk's belt for combat (though not better than the other non-casters, would be strange if it were so), and still good for scout/stealth/fighting casters.

- Giacomo

[Spiryt]

+3 from Str, +7 from BaB. Divine Power gets you +13 total by giving you better BaB.

The main thing I do not understand in that all, is Divine Power:

1 - Why monk should have it casted on himself?
2- Why Fighter/Ranger/Commoner13/Halfling Emu Raider 9 can't have it too, thus making no difference ?

[SamTheCleric]

Wait, that's not +9.

7 [BAB] + 2 [Dex] - 1 [Size] - = +8 to hit an 18 AC. 10-20 hits, 55% chance.

There goes your "good chance" to hit with that crossbow.

EDIT: Oops, I guess monks are proficient with crossbows. Fixed

[Tengu]

By the way, isn't it a bit ironic that the guide both lists Divine Power under great spells and with one breath says that monks don't need full BAB?

A point someone might have made before. I haven't read the whole thread thoroughly.

[Arbitrarity]

And, despite rumors to the contrary, phantom steed can take some blows. And when you have to use a full-round action to do 7 damage (50% of the time), it worries less.

Also, monks are proficient with crossbows.
3-4 hits to down the steed at level 14. No. That's 6 rounds of firing. There is no way you can pull that off. However, it's also round your party can use to dispatch the thing efficiently, if applicable.

Assuming it doesn't, y'know, USE that 240 ft speed. I mean, 1 round of RUN will get it out of your range, and the range of any spells with ranges less than or equal to Long, immediately, no way for you to chase and fire.

[Solo]

And with that, at long last, I conclude for today.

I've heard that one before.

Edit: Ouch, Giacomo... looks like your idea of plinking is taking a beating.

Levels 9-10 Stealth/scout tactics with occasional fighting

Problem is, your AB is going to be subpar when compared with melee characters below and above level 10 as well. The problem of not having enough weight in the field of AB is an albatross that hangs around your neck for your entire career. You mitigate it at higher levels, with enough items maybe, but at mid to lower levels? Ouch.

[SamTheCleric]

Also, monks are proficient with crossbows.

Wow, I have -never- noticed that. No monk every carries one... I wonder why not.

Also, if we want to be nitpicky... Your level 10 build didnt buy any crossbow bolts.

Maybe you can shoot some wands out of it?

And now an honest question... Why are you saying that your wand budget is cumulative with previous levels? Wealth By Level does not work that way. You use WBL to create a PC of that level using THAT amount of gold. You don't "get" that much money every level as you make a 20th level build. Your "total" wealth is that much... no cumulativeness to it.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Actually the build does not "rely" on that. It is in addition to filling the party role of a monk as outlined by the PHB.

And with that, at long last, I conclude for today.

- Giacomo

Giacomo. Your essay is 151 cm long (I checked).

52 cm of those are not comparing Monks, in some form, to casters.

If you want, we can run the end of all the above campaigns against your Monk.

He'll die.

ALSO:I'm taking bets for how long it will be before Gia returns. Ten minutes? Half an hour? Several weeks?

[Solo]

Monk: Hey guys! Guess what? I can be awesome if I plan my character build out in great detail, buy lots of expensive magical items and consumables, get my caster buddies to help out with spells, and powergame my way to heck by exploiting broken game features like Leadership and Polymorph.

Wizard: Really? I just prepare spells.

[Arbitrarity]

Monk: Hey guys! Guess what? I can be awesome if I plan my character build out in great detail, buy lots of expensive magical items and consumables, get my caster buddies to help out with spells, and powergame my way to heck by exploiting broken game features like Leadership and Polymorph.

Wizard: Really? I just prepare spells.

In all fairness, he's not using polymorph and leadership, this time. UMD is a pretty powerful skill investment, admittedly.

[Quirinus_Obsidian]

Giacomo; Thank you for taking the time and effort into making a guide for the Monk. You insight is appreciated for those of us in a hardcore campaign that does not have cheezy flying spellslingers at 5th level, spellcasting bears, and Shock Troop'ing barbarians at 6th level. Built correctly, the Monk is one of the better support characters there is.

[Solo]

a hardcore campaign that does not have cheezy flying spellslingers at 5th level

Your wizard never took Flight or Phantom Steed?

[Arbitrarity]

There are druids who aren't spellslinging bears?

Now, leap attack, pouncing, shock trooper Spirit Lion Totem barbarian/frenzied berserkers, Ok.

Also, how is it NOT a hardcore game with cheese if the monk is UMD'ing, buffing, and 3-way optimizing punching his way to victory?
You think clerics are cheesy for self-buffing with divine power? Wait...

[Nebo_]

Pretty much everything Giacomo has said to date

D&D DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY!

[Solo]

Built correctly, the Monk is one of the better support characters there is.

What's he going to do, support the enemy to death?

"Here, let me catch your fall.... not! Suck it, gramps!"

[Kurald Galain]

D&D DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY!

Precisely.

Didn't SG eventually admit in one of the earlier threads that he doesn't play this kind of character either? How, then, is this different from the proverbial virgin giving advise on the kama sutra?

[Tengu]

What's he going to do, support the enemy to death?

"Here, let me catch your fall.... not! Suck it, gramps!"

Throw potions at your friends, thus using his action and not theirs? Works in Final Fantasy, and since we know DND is becoming more like FF, than should work for DND too!

[Kurald Galain]

This is a very low magic campaign. no spellcasting bears (hell there are no druids) and very low level magic.

Two words: oberoni fallacy.

[Ne0]

What's he going to do, support the enemy to death?

"Here, let me catch your fall.... not! Suck it, gramps!"

Darn, he's right! Whatever the hell was WotC thinking when they put a cure spell in the game?!
Seriously Solo, get over yourself. We see you disagree with Giacomo. That doesn't mean you have to make annoying remarks that don't even add anything to the discussion whenever people agree with him.

Everyone here obviously likes to discuss the Monk class. So why are we trying to get this thread locked?

[Arbitrarity]

Darn, he's right! Whatever the hell was WotC thinking when they put a cure spell in the game?!
Seriously Solo, get over yourself. We see you disagree with Giacomo. That doesn't mean you have to make annoying remarks that don't even add anything to the discussion whenever people agree with him.

Everyone here obviously likes to discuss the Monk class. So why are we trying to get this thread locked?

First: *blinks* Monk... cure... *non sequitur*
Second: I would strongly disagree with that third paragraph. We could do a poll, but I bet a majority of people on this thread are tired of rehashing the same arguments over, and over, and over again (Though I do give props to Giamoco for actually statting something out, over a 20 level progression. That takes work)

[Nebo_]

Darn, he's right! Whatever the hell was WotC thinking when they put a cure spell in the game?!
Seriously Solo, get over yourself. We see you disagree with Giacomo. That doesn't mean you have to make annoying remarks that don't even add anything to the discussion whenever people agree with him.

That was just a comment on the futility of playing a support character that doesn't support very well. If you're going to do that, either play something that doesn't need to be supported to function in a game, or play something that actually does the job well. What's the problem with expressing that in a humourous way?

[Solo]

Darn, he's right! Whatever the hell was WotC thinking when they put a cure spell in the game?!
Seriously Solo, get over yourself. We see you disagree with Giacomo. That doesn't mean you have to make annoying remarks that don't even add anything to the discussion whenever people agree with him.

Actually, it does.

If you haven't noticed, it's what I do.

Furthermore, if you haven't noticed, that was a joke, and not meant to be taken seriously. That you do so only means that you do not get to share in the humor and fun.

Everyone here obviously likes to discuss the Monk class. So why are we trying to get this thread locked?

I have remained civil and entertaining. Everyone else has been polite, or at least not rude enough to warrant modding.

[Ne0]

I would strongly disagree with that third paragraph. We could do a poll, but I bet a majority of people on this thread are tired of rehashing the same arguments over, and over, and over again (Though I do give props to Giamoco for actually statting something out, over a 20 level progression. That takes work)

So then why the hell have we reached 9 pages in a day? If people

That was just a comment on the futility of playing a support character that doesn't support very well. If you're going to do that, either play something that doesn't need to be supported to function in a game, or play something that actually does the job well. What's the problem with expressing that in a humourous way?

1. You deducted that all one sentence?
2. The problem? That it doesn't really add anything at all, because essentially, Solo's saying "No, he's not a good supportive character". And the fact that he's been doing that for the last 9 pages, as well as changing his avatar specifically to mock Giacomo. There are boundaries. I can think of a whole lot of things to put what I say in a humourous way. Except that, eventually, that kind of attitude will lead to flaming and a lock.
It's a special something that I call 'Mutual Respect'.