"But I just wanted to be liked!" Charm Person and ethics

[Mewtarthio]

I use Telepathy, and make my voice sound different. Or I use one of those spells that combine Sending with a Suggestion (I think it's Demand). He or she will have no idea who is making the suggestion. And the info is probably good for a while, so I can even wait a few days before the actual seduction.

This is why psionics are superior to magic for most forms of enchantment. Use psionic suggestion instead, and be sure to supress the display so that nobody knows what you're doing. Better yet, just use mind probe.

[Collin152]

Frosty and Collin: It bothers me that you have thought this through so much.

I am surprised at you!

If anybody would have thought this through already, wouldn't it have been me?

[Frosty]

Take a level of Mindbender. Make your suggestion Telepathic.

Note that this is not using the telepathic suggestion class feature, just the telepathy. You only need a new medium to convey your suggestion.
That's why it's a pointless class feature.

Also, it is totally fine to do that. I suggest you go and do that right now. While you are at it, gather up all the girls in the world in the process. Doesn't matter which side of it they're on.

Edit: My worthy foe, your Ninja skills are great, but can you dodge a Mindrape?

What exactly does Mindrape do anyways? Does it have the [vile] descriptor?

[AKA_Bait]

I am surprised at you!

If anybody would have thought this through already, wouldn't it have been me?

Hey, just because I expect something doesn't mean it isn't bothersome.

[Collin152]

What exactly does Mindrape do anyways? Does it have the [vile] descriptor?

Vile? Not sure. Evil, yes.

One, it let's me see every little thought that has ever passed through your mind.
Every memory, every sensory input, everything you thought was a secret, mine.
Next, it lets me modify all of these as I see fit.
Furthermore, you see it all happening. It's qute painful.
And, if I so chose, I remove the memory of the experience, and you are none the wiser.
All in one round.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Vile? Not sure. Evil, yes.

One, it let's me see every little thought that has ever passed through your mind.
Every memory, every sensory input, everything you thought was a secret, mine.
Next, it lets me modify all of these as I see fit.
Furthermore, you see it all happening. It's qute painful.
And, if I so chose, I remove the memory of the experience, and you are none the wiser.
All in one round.

It was mind affecting, correct?

[Frosty]

Do you get a save?

[Illiterate Scribe]

Yes, but, at that level, everyone worth their salt should be mindblanked.

[Azerian Kelimon]

I use Telepathy, and make my voice sound different. Or I use one of those spells that combine Sending with a Suggestion (I think it's Demand). He or she will have no idea who is making the suggestion. And the info is probably good for a while, so I can even wait a few days before the actual seduction.

Y'know, it's much easier to use that potion that forced you to say the truth, then get a Concealed sleep or similar spell off. Once that's done, get a perfect alibi (Possibly contract devils to impersonate people for a while, WITHOUT HARMING THEM) and you're set.

More complex? Yes. Much less likely to be caught? Hell yeah.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Yes, but, at that level, everyone worth their salt should be mindblanked.

My thoughts precisely. And if it DOES allow a save, heh, the opponent's NOT going to fail if we talk about PC's.

[Frosty]

Mindblank can be dispelled, and items of MB can be suppressed, so it's not fool-proof. A sneaky caster can do it without you ever knowing until the MB falls.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Mindblank can be dispelled, and items of MB can be suppressed, so it's not fool-proof. A sneaky caster can do it without you ever knowing until the MB falls.

Hell no, he can't. There is EXACTLY one thing that can pierce MB, and it's Metafaculty, a Telepath level 9 power.

And then there's the problem that wise people carry a Cloak of Resistance +5 or item of Superior Resistance, and they have at least one reroll, and preferably another item that grants a big bonus.

[Collin152]

Mindblank can be dispelled, and items of MB can be suppressed, so it's not fool-proof. A sneaky caster can do it without you ever knowing until the MB falls.

Yes, the shieldsman may be safe from the archer, but he must hold his shield as long as he seeks saftey, while the bowman may lay his arms at rest.

Furthermore, Mindrape is instantaneous, so good luck getting it fixed.
And yes, it offers a save, but that's why we have things like Bestow Greater Curse to hit you with while your mindblank is up. If you make the save? Cast it again, it's fairly expendable.

[Frosty]

Hell no, he can't. There is EXACTLY one thing that can pierce MB, and it's Metafaculty, a Telepath level 9 power.

And then there's the problem that wise people carry a Cloak of Resistance +5 or item of Superior Resistance, and they have at least one reroll, and preferably another item that grants a big bonus.

Of course he can. It's called all the different variants of Dispel Magic. You have no idea it's being cast at you (assuming a sneaky caster who has Sleight of Hand buffed way up) until it finally lands. Then, a wand of Quicken, Greater for the Mindrape. I don't allow Karma beads or whatever, and not everyone is an archmage. I also don't allow Ioun stones of +1 CL to stack. One of the Dispel checks will succeed. If a PC is determined enough to do something, it will happen.

[Collin152]

Of course he can. It's called all the different variants of Dispel Magic. You have no idea it's being cast at you (assuming a sneaky caster who has Sleight of Hand buffed way up) until it finally lands. Then, a wand of Quicken, Greater for the Mindrape. I don't allow Karma beads or whatever, and not everyone is an archmage. I also don't allow Ioun stones of +1 CL to stack. One of the Dispel checks will succeed. If a PC is determined enough to do something, it will happen.

Yes, further my cause, my dear... That's the ticket.

So, Mindblankers, once you're my mindraped slave, would you prefer to keep your magic but perform menial duties, or forget you ever had it and simply become my butler instead?

[MartinHarper]

I have trusted friends. I don't follow them all around like a puppy. I try to stop them doing things I think are wrong.

The "ordering" clause of the spell, as "Save My Game" notes, is subject to DM interpretation. It could be very powerful, or just a side-effect of having a new friend, depending on the DM. This may be part of why people take differing viewpoints.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sg/20050812a

[Starbuck_II]

Shortcuts are a form of cheating.
Cheating is wrong.

Furthermore, normal circumstances become irrelevant when you cast the spell, as you have changed the circumstances. The spell goes down, they might not want to be your friend now.

That's why we have three lovely spells to help us out: Modify Memory, Programmed Amnesia, and Mindrape.

I disagree. Shortcuts are not a type of cheating. Unless you are breaking laid (yes I meant it written this way) out rules: it is not cheating.

I mean, making people want to do something with suggestions is perfectly fine. As long as you aren't forcing them to.


Also:
If you use diplomacy the effects of friendship stay: and the DC is affect them is lower due to their favirable to your words.

[Collin152]

I disagree. Shortcuts are not a type of cheating. Unless you are breaking laid (yes I meant it written this way) out rules: it is not cheating.

Not all rules are written, and those that are not always in stone. Even thoe written in stone... well, I digress.
I think shortcuts are always considered cheating when it involves the unwilling or unwitting consent of another. Or the lack therof but a need of.
Or possibly worse than cheating.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Yes, further my cause, my dear... That's the ticket.

So, Mindblankers, once you're my mindraped slave, would you prefer to keep your magic but perform menial duties, or forget you ever had it and simply become my butler instead?

Breach the spell turning item, which renews itself every two/three rounds, or the at will item if we're feeling merciful. And the insane saves.

The idea of the would-be slaver being enslaved is viciously hilarious.

Frosty: Then, it's gonna be HARDER to breach the spell. Not to mention there was a spell/item that gave you massive boosts to the DC, to the point of being unbreachable. If other PC's are going around the place using mindrape, bet anything you want that I'm going to find an unbreachable counter to one of the game's biggest autolosses.

[Frosty]

You could join them in Mindraping the bad guys into submission

[Azerian Kelimon]

You could join them in Mindraping the bad guys into submission

Not if you prefer innovation to inevitable decay. Mindrapes are sterile, because one day you're going down and you'll bring down everyone with you. Not to mention neverending torment afterwards.

If you're doing that, it's much better to do it a la Corleone, with words instead of swords. There is much to learn from the jesuits.

[Collin152]

You could join them in Mindraping the bad guys into submission

The bad guys?
I thought we were...
Well, it seems we have come to a disagreement.

[Azerian Kelimon]

The bad guys?
I thought we were...
Well, it seems we have come to a disagreement.

Indeed.

Now, question is, how are you going to escape the great mindrape that's going to come once you bite the dust?

No, Lich is not an answer, neither is Vampire. Those bite the dust too.

[Collin152]

Indeed.

Now, question is, how are you going to escape the great mindrape that's going to come once you bite the dust?

No, Lich is not an answer, neither is Vampire. Those bite the dust too.

Lich is an answer, and it's far too late to go back on that one.

But the real answer is, Mindrape myself before I die. Or Mindrape the cosmos into doing as I will.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Lich is an answer, and it's far too late to go back on that one.

But the real answer is, Mindrape myself before I die. Or Mindrape the cosmos into doing as I will.

Why, though? You gain nothing from mindraping yourself, except a total coma as you await a command that is not going to come.

And nope, the multiverse can't be mindraped. That's going to get epic "'ruts" (Like Kolyaruts or Maruts) on you.

[Collin152]

Why, though? You gain nothing from mindraping yourself, except a total coma as you await a command that is not going to come.

And nope, the multiverse can't be mindraped. That's going to get epic "'ruts" (Like Kolyaruts or Maruts) on you.

I Mindrape myself, letting me rearange my thoughts, memories, and alignment however I want. I adjust my alignment through this manipulation so as to fit into whatever afterlife I want. I'm good to go.

And Inevitables will inevitably be weaker than me by the time I can Mindrape. And if I succeded in Mindraping the cosmos, I may as well undo them anyways.

[Azerian Kelimon]

I Mindrape myself, letting me rearange my thoughts, memories, and alignment however I want. I adjust my alignment through this manipulation so as to fit into whatever afterlife I want. I'm good to go.

And Inevitables will inevitably be weaker than me by the time I can Mindrape. And if I succeded in Mindraping the cosmos, I may as well undo them anyways.

If it doesn't explicitly say that you can modify your alignment, and that that will get you through the trials of actions souls undergo, tough luck, because you're going to end a lemure.

Not to mention, as I said, you'd get epic Inevitables sent at you if you try to mindrape the multiverse. Doubt you can beat that laundry list of immunities they have before being beaten into a pulp.

[GoC]

Why is seducing someone using the Diplomacy skill ok but Charm Person is not?
In both cases the subject has no freedom to avoid.

btw: Suppose there are a race of people who expel pheromones that make others sexually attracted to them. One of them decides to magically increase his natural pheromone release rate. Has he done something wrong?

[Solo]

Why is seducing someone using the Diplomacy skill ok but Charm Person is not?
In both cases the subject has no freedom to avoid.

What you talkin' bout GoC?

I'm pretty sure Diplomacy doesn't work that way.

[SolkaTruesilver]

You all know that, IRL, they have invented female pheromones that girl can put on and guys (any guy) will act.. quite irrationnaly around them? Will want to help them, talk to them, etc...

The product itself is quite costly, if I remember. Is it immoral to use such device?