Giarillas in the Mist

[Sir Giacomo]

Ah, I see, not in the compromise mood... Will not wish to discuss further after this post, hence I continue with your scenario in which the dire lion can attack THE FOG.

On that fog horn issue, and after that no more comments of mine on that here:

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Read again what the description says.
Horn of Fog is activated, creating an effect similar to the obscuring mist spell. Check (20ft radius; the sentence ends after this first description)
Then, the fog would spread at 10ft adjacant to the player for every round that the user CONTINUES (notice the wording here!) to play the horn.
Then, even with your interpretation, the dire lion would not have had line of sight at first, doing a move to locate the monk on the one side (where the monk was not present, then trying to scent where the monk is (a move equivalent action). So no attack would have been possible.
Finally, I clearly outlined how I understood the horn of fog would work. Accepting that and then saying on the dire lion's turn "neenah, neenah, you read the item wrong" is completely useless for what we wish to finde out here. Heck, you even said after I outlined the 20ft radius and where the joker monk would be positioned: "Use of horn of fog, combined with free action drop - Legal."
And now you change your mind? Very odd.

OK, in round 1 the dire lion attacks. Doing so means he leaves a square threatened by THE FOG.
Attack of opportunity (a grapple touch attack)
grapple touch attack AoO - (1d20+10)[15]
grapple check AoO - (1d20+18)[20]

If successful (opposing grapple check pls), THE FOG has now grappled the Dire lion before it could bite. The Dire Lion of course could still try to bite at -4.

- Giacomo

[Talic]

Horn of Fog:

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It does NOT state it creates an "effect similar to an Obscuing mist." It states that it creates "a thick cloud of heavy fog similar to that of an obscuring mist spell."
Thus, the properties of the fog are identical to an obscuring mist spell, except as noted (properties such as visibility, concealment chance, and the like). The item then goes on to outline the Area of Effect. "The fog covers a 10-foot square next to the horn blower each round that the user continues to blow the horn", and then any additional properties of the effect "fog clouds travel 10 feet each round in a straight line from the emanation point unless blocked by something substantial such as a wall."

Thus, it creates a 10 foot square of fog adjacent to you on any round that you blow it. From that point, the cloud moves 10 feet away from the point of origin any round that it can. It's simple, it's straightforward. Nowhere in the item does it suggest that the fog spreads. If you blow the horn, you make a 10 foot square cube of fog. That's it.

Correct on the other issue. An AoO is provoked. Touch attack hits. Lion opposed grapple check to resist being grappled:

(1d20+17)[22]

EDIT: Lion is not grappled. Remainder of lion's action stands as posted. 1 hit with a bite attack, for a total of 4 damage, and a required roll by you, opposed grapple check, DC20. As long as you don't roll a 1, you're fine.

[Sir Giacomo]

Round 1 opposed grapple vs lion attack - (1d20+18)[23]

In case that's successful let me see...

[Sir Giacomo]

OK,

ROUND 2
THE FOG is at 38 hp.
He tumbles (auto-success) away to avoid AoO, moving into the edge of the remaining fog to prevent line of sight to the dire lion and get concealment vs it on its turn (not total concealment; taking into account the fog's drift) and drinks the potion of bull's strength (STR is now 26; grapple check +20 /flurried +19/+19; damage is now 3d6+8). He then drops both empty bottles, signaling his position to the dire lion.

[Talic]

As you stated intent is to block LOS, I'd like to point out that LOS from the lion to your square must pass through 2 fog squares (not including lion's square, including your square). 1 square only provides concealment.

Based on that:

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Position as I see it: (M = Monk, L = Lion, F = Fog, x = empty square)

MMLLxFF
MMLLxFF

Tumbling will allow you to do the following:

xxLLxFMM
xxLLxFMM

With you occupying the fog with the left most side of your character. This seems most in keeping with moving into the edge of the fog. Lion will lose LOS of you as you move fully behind the fog.

Based on the above, the lion will take its turn. As you have LOS, albeit with concealment, turn is below. (you have los because the fog you're standing in does not count for your LOS. It does not because the square you're standing in DOES count for its.)

Lion takes a move action to note direction of foe. It now knows you are to the east, within 30 feet. It assumes you cannot see it, as it cannot see you.

Lion then readies an action: Action and Conditions are spoilered, for later verification. This spoiler off limits to Giacomo until after his next turn is posted.

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Attack if opponent moves within 10 feet and then does anything else. This will be combined with a 5 foot step, per SRD entry on readied actions, as the lion has made no movement this round.

Lion turn complete.

[Sir Giacomo]

OK, if I interpret it correctly, THE FOG is currently 10ft away from the dire lion. In that case...(depending also on readied action of dire lion)

ROUND 3 actions
Flurried grapple from 10ft away.
Touch attack to establish grapple 1 - (1d20+10)[14]
Grapple check 1 - (1d20+19)[27]
[roll=Grapple damage 1]3d6+8[(roll]
Then, in case first touch attack and/or grapple check missed:
Touch attack to establish grapple 2a - (1d20+10)[11]
Grapple check 2a - (1d20+19)[22]
[roll=Grapple damage 2a]3d6+8[(roll]
Or, first grappling was successful, then a pin is attempted
Grapple check to pin 2b - (1d20+19)[27]

[Sir Giacomo]

Ah, after reading spoiled text - OK.
Saw also that I mistyped the grapple damage. Will wait to see whether grapple check is successful at all, then re-roll.
Also, noticed that if THE FOG has concealment from the dire lion, so could have the dire lion from attacks from THE FOG. Is that correct? Then I'd roll a miss chance (twice, for blind-fight).

EDIT3: forget my confusion. THE FOG was notwithin 10ft of dire lion, so he steps 5ft ahead of his full flurry attack (5ft in direction of the fog drift); triggering the readied action of the dire lion.

[Talic]

Correct. Monk was 15 feet from Dire Lion. Fog moves 10 feet forward, establishing LOS for the lion. Monk takes a 5 foot step towards lion. Monk attacks. Attack triggers lion's readied action.

Before the attack, lion takes a 5 foot step towards the monk, and attacks.

Lion Attack (claw): (1d20+13)[17]
If Hit: (1d6+7)[8]
If threat: (1d20+13)[21]
If Crit: (1d6+7)[11]

From there, your attacks go off as listed.

Roll 1, to resist grapple: (1d20+17)[24]

Note: as the fog cloud moves at the start of the monk's turn (technically, on the initiative count before it, but the timing makes no difference in this case), it moves past the monk, which means that the monk has no concealment from the attack.

EDIT: Grapple was not resisted. Lion takes Grapple damage. Your grapple damage is a broken roll. Please repost.

[Talic]

Grapple check to resist being pinned: (1d20+17)[21]

Let's see if something decent rolls. I think the lion's average d20 roll this combat has been 4, heh. Not that you're complaining, I'm sure.

EDIT: Lion is pinned. Awaiting Damage roll repost prior to taking lion turn.

[Sir Giacomo]

Ah, I see the dire lion got similarly uninspiring single-digit rolls.

OK, I'll reroll the round 3 grapple damage:
grapple damage round 3 - (3d6+8)[15]

The dire lion can now try to escape the pin at the beginning of round four (its new initiative count, since it readied in round 2).

[Talic]

Yup. Here goes.

Lion has a Rake ability, which grants it 2 additional natural weapon attacks. These attacks are only usable while in a grapple, but are at full base attack bonus. As the lion is currently in a grapple, it has access to these extra attacks.

Relevant Text:

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A creature with this special attack gains extra natural attacks when it grapples its foe. Normally, a monster can attack with only one of its natural weapons while grappling, but a monster with the rake ability usually gains two additional claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe. Rake attacks are not subject to the usual -4 penalty for attacking with a natural weapon in a grapple.

A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn grappling to use its rake—it can’t begin a grapple and rake in the same turn.

When an opponent has pinned you, you are held immobile (but not helpless) for 1 round. While you’re pinned, you take a -4 penalty to your AC against opponents other than the one pinning you. At your opponent’s option, you may also be unable to speak. On your turn, you can try to escape the pin by making an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. You can make an Escape Artist check in place of your grapple check if you want, but this requires a standard action. If you win, you escape the pin, but you’re still grappling.

As the lion is entitled to a total of 3 attacks while in grapple, I will be using them as necessary to escape pin.

Format is as follows. Lion will attempt to break pin until it succeeds. Once it succeeds, it will use the remainder of its attacks on the foe that pinned it.

Grapple attempt to break pin: (1d20+17)[31]
Grapple attempt 2, to break pin (if necessary): (1d20+17)[21]
Grapple attempt 3, to break pin (if necessary): (1d20+17)[32]

1st attack lion is entitled to in the round (rake): (1d20+12)[25]
If Hit: (1d6+3)[7]
If threat: (1d20+12)[18]
If Crit: (1d6+3)[6]

2nd attack lion is entitled to in the round (rake): (1d20+12)[30]
If Hit: (1d6+3)[4]
If threat: (1d20+12)[14]
If Crit: (1d6+3)[5]

Note: If lion breaks pin on 1st attempt, both attacks above are valid. If lion breaks pin on 2nd attempt, only the 1st roll is valid. If lion fails to break pin, or breaks pin on 3rd attempt, no attacks are made against you.

[Sir Giacomo]

Ah, interesting.

Several issues, one good for the lion, two bad.
The good:
-If the lion wins the first grapple check to escape the pin, it can then do a claw attack in addition to the rakes (grapple checks are done instead of attacks; see als 3.5 FAQ p. 92).
The bad
- grapple checks are based on BAB (modified or plain BAB) The dire lion's BAB of 6 only allows it 2 grapple checks, not three (check out 3.5 FAQ, p. 92)
- Of course the grapple checks it can make to escape then also are at a successively lower BAB; so at +17/+12. (also FAQ, same page)

Having said that, the monk's two opposed grapple checks to keep up the pin until his turn in round 4 are:
oppose 1 - (1d20+19)[21]
oppose 2 - (1d20+19)[23]

[Sir Giacomo]

Oh great, rolled a 2 and a 4. Massive luck here Also, I would only have needed to roll the first one, anyhow (the lion pin escape attempt was too low). And then no rakes would have been possible, since you need to be grappling, not being pinned at the start of your round to be able to rake (SRD). Oh well...

OK, this puts THE FOG at 19 hits. If your claw attack hits THE FOG is really starting to get into trouble... (note that the claw attack is at -4 for being in a grapple, and at only +1 BAB, so at -9, since a grappling monster can only use one of its natural weapons while in a grapple).

Curse bad luck and rakes!

OK, here are the 4th round THE FOG actions
Again trying to pin in a flurry. Also with second grapple in case first fails, otherwise if pin successful on first check, deal damage in second grapple check.
grapple 1 to pin - (1d20+19)[35]
grapple 2 to pin or deal damage - (1d20+19)[27]
possible grapple 2 damage - (3d6+8)[23]

[Talic]

Ah, interesting.

Several issues, one good for the lion, two bad.
The good:
-If the lion wins the first grapple check to escape the pin, it can then do a claw attack in addition to the rakes (grapple checks are done instead of attacks; see als 3.5 FAQ p. 92).
The bad
- grapple checks are based on BAB (modified or plain BAB) The dire lion's BAB of 6 only allows it 2 grapple checks, not three (check out 3.5 FAQ, p. 92)
- Of course the grapple checks it can make to escape then also are at a successively lower BAB; so at +17/+12. (also FAQ, same page)

Having said that, the monk's two opposed grapple checks to keep up the pin until his turn in round 4 are:
(1d20+17)[28]
(1d20+17)[37]

Bear in mind, when someone is pinned, they are still grappled. That's like saying that someone gets on a plane. When they go to the bathroom, they're not on the plane anymore, they're in the bathroom. Both are true.

That said, resist checks:

Grapple roll 1: (1d20+17)[28]
Grapple roll 2: (1d20+17)[37]

[Talic]

Ok, Lion is pinned. No damage however.

On Lion attacks:

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Lion has 2 attack progressions.
1) Natural attack: 2 claws (full BAB), 1 bite (BAB -5), 2 Rakes (Full BAB, only usable on a charge or while grappled).

2) BAB Progression: 2 Unarmed strikes (Full BAB, and BAB -5)

When in grapple, these progressions are as follows, and the lion may freely choose between them:

1) Natural attack: 1 claw (Full BAB), 2 Rakes (Full BAB)
2) BAB progression: 2 unarmed strikes (Full BAB, and BAB -5)

When pinned, the lion is still grappled (SRD, pinning is under the grapple listing), with the additional restrictions of having less options available. The creature still has full attacks, they are just only usable for certain things. For example, if your monk were pinned, he would be able to flurry, even if he cannot attack, and take a -1 to his checks to gain an additional grapple attempts. Similarly, even if the lion cannot make any direct attacks, it still has them, and may still make checks in place of them.

For verification, I am submitting the Question to Silvanos, as he's guaranteed to be impartial on it. Link to question is here.

Lion Turn:
Using Natural attack progression:
Escape pin attempt 1, in place of claw attack: (1d20+17)[29]
Escape pin 2, if needed (in place of rake attack): (1d20+17)[34]
If pinned at this point, forfeit attack 3. If Silvanos answers in favor of not considering rakes usable at pin, then subtract 5 from pin attempt 2.

As before, Lion will rake, as soon as it is free from grapple. 2nd one doesn't apply if pin escape 1 fails. 1st one doesn't apply if pin escape 2 fails.

1st rake in the round: (1d20+12)[23]
If hit: (1d6+3)[5]
If threat: [roll]1d20 +12[/roll]
If crit: (1d6+3)[6]

2nd rake in the round: (1d20+12)[28]
If hit: (1d6+3)[8]
If threat: [roll]1d20 +12[/roll]
If crit: (1d6+3)[7]

EDIT: Need 2 grapple checks, DCs listed above.

[Sir Giacomo]

Hmm. Confused a bit. I though you still had one extra claw attack (at -9) when making that first escape from pin attempt.
And also, I think you are wrong on that rake attack being still available even after having started the round in a pin. The point is that you first have to overcome the grapple, and after having won that, you are "still considered grappling". So being pinned appears to be one higher rung in the chain.
Will ask Lord Silvanos also in the Q&A about it.

Anyhow, for the time being we proceed as before (we can deduct the rake damage afterwards).

Opposed grapple checks to escape pin (and both are vs 29, since the lion gets -5 on its second escape attempt, as per iterative BAB bonus).

oppose pin break 1 - (1d20+19)[20]
oppose pin break 2 - (1d20+19)[37]

[Sir Giacomo]

This is simply incredible. First a 2, now a 1 for the decisive roll.

OK.
5th round actions for THE FOG, now at 6 hp
Again, as before...flurry etc.
grapple for pin 1 - (1d20+19)[24]
grapple for pin 2 or damage - (1d20+19)[21]
possible damage in grapple 2 - (3d6+8)[19]

[Sir Giacomo]

OK, another row of abysmal single-digit rolls.

Lord Silvanos provided the ruling: it is possible to rake after breaking free from a pin in the same round, since pinning is considered grappling.

OK, let's see whether THE FOG survives one more round. I must say I underestimated the rake stuff which I though would apply only on a charge with pouncing (at least the double rake kind, also without the -4 penalty and no iterative BAB malus).

- Giacomo

[Talic]

OK, we're going with his interpretation.

That means when Pinned, I have 2 shots at breaking free. If I do break free, I can make 2 rakes. I deny myself any claw attacks when I have to break pin, as I don't get my standard attack routine when using iterative BAB, which I'm using to break pin.

Opposed Grapple checks:

Grapple 1: (1d20+17)[25]
Grapple 2: (1d20+17)[32]

Edit: Not pinned.

[Talic]

Attack Routine for Lion:

Attack 1: Claw attack at -4 penalty: (1d20+9)[16]
If Hit: (1d6+7)[9]
If threat: (1d20+9)[22]
If crit: (1d6+7)[13]

Attack 2: Rake: (1d20+12)[17]
If hit: (1d6+3)[9]
If threat: (1d20+12)[13]
If crit: (1d6+3)[6]

Attack 3: Rake: (1d20+12)[22]
If hit: (1d6+3)[5]
If threat: (1d20+12)[21]
If crit: (1d6+3)[7]

Edit: Even with attack rolls of 7,5, and 10, I think that's match.

Factors:

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Lion's abysmal rolls at beginning.
Monk's Abysmal rolls at end.
Sub-par AC from monk made creature able to hit very reliably in grapple with the attack at -4 option. More reliably than player was able to damage or pin. Also, shows that pinning is a less than fully effective strategy prior to gaining 3 attacks. The tradeoff in loss of damage dealt is too great, especially if the foe has a similar grapple mod and equal or more attacks.

[Sir Giacomo]

Wow, a raking creature IS tough to grapple - even the full plate contestants would have stood no chance. (THE FOG would have been best advised to just use his spiked chain, dancing around the fog created by the horn, or a cheap hide from animals effect in a real adventure - but hey, this is a grappling contest).

Thanks for putting in a lot of effort here, and providing many discussions, where really a lot was learned on grappling (for all involved). Will give a (possibly final?) comment in the main thread.

- Giacomo

[Talic]

Full plate contestants would have lasted longer in grapple. Higher AC would have helped. Provided you have a character with +1 full plate, an item of nat armor +1, and a dex mod of +1, it's an AC 21, which would have resulted in many of the above hits being misses. Choosing to fight defensively may further enhance that.

[Sir Giacomo]

They would have lasted longer in case the grapple would have been similarly higher AND if they had two grapple attempts to pin (otherwise the lion would have always been able to to 5 attack routine in a grapple, eventually overcoming even AC 21 quite fast).

Overall, I guestimated the chances of both THE FOG and the dire lion. On his turn, THE FOG had around a 90% chance to establish a pin vs the dire lion. This imo resulted in a overall winning chance of 50:50 - so the monk got unlucky. But it definitely was not THAT unlucky.

An interpretation of the horn of fog according to what I still see in the item (creating an effect similar to an obscuring mist when first activated, then when continuing to play doing the different effects to that of the original spell) would have resulted in 20% less damage output of the dire lion (miss chance), so likely have tilted the balance in favour of THE FOG.

I wonder what contestant will be able to overcome the three foes in a grapple with a good chance. Great barbarians will have a low will save, likely losing vs the cloaker will attacks in the first combat.
There is noone there with higher grapple damage than the monk, so vs the troll all will take longer to take it down vs its regenerating ability.
Vs the lion then a good AC helps vs the rakes, in case you have a good enough chance to get a pin up to avoid full attacks with 2 rakes, 2 claws and 1 bite.

- Giacomo

[Talic]

They would have lasted longer in case the grapple would have been similarly higher AND if they had two grapple attempts to pin (otherwise the lion would have always been able to to 5 attack routine in a grapple, eventually overcoming even AC 21 quite fast).

Overall, I guestimated the chances of both THE FOG and the dire lion. On his turn, THE FOG had around a 90% chance to establish a pin vs the dire lion. This imo resulted in a overall winning chance of 50:50 - so the monk got unlucky. But it definitely was not THAT unlucky.

An interpretation of the horn of fog according to what I still see in the item (creating an effect similar to an obscuring mist when first activated, then when continuing to play doing the different effects to that of the original spell) would have resulted in 20% less damage output of the dire lion (miss chance), so likely have tilted the balance in favour of THE FOG.

I wonder what contestant will be able to overcome the three foes in a grapple with a good chance. Great barbarians will have a low will save, likely losing vs the cloaker will attacks in the first combat.
There is noone there with higher grapple damage than the monk, so vs the troll all will take longer to take it down vs its regenerating ability.
Vs the lion then a good AC helps vs the rakes, in case you have a good enough chance to get a pin up to avoid full attacks with 2 rakes, 2 claws and 1 bite.

- Giacomo

Nope. Rules for grapple. A creature may use only 1 natural weapon in a grapple, and natural attacks do not use iterative attack bonus (i.e. +11/+6/+1). Rake is a specifically listed exemption from that, however, If the lion does 1 claw, it may not use the other, or the bite.

[Fenix_of_Doom]

Wow, a raking creature IS tough to grapple - even the full plate contestants would have stood no chance.

I do plan on finishing that one and my goals have just shifting to beating this damn lion, so we'll see about that.

I wonder what contestant will be able to overcome the three foes in a grapple with a good chance. Great barbarians will have a low will save, likely losing vs the cloaker will attacks in the first combat.
There is noone there with higher grapple damage than the monk, so vs the troll all will take longer to take it down vs its regenerating ability.
Vs the lion then a good AC helps vs the rakes, in case you have a good enough chance to get a pin up to avoid full attacks with 2 rakes, 2 claws and 1 bite.

Well. the fighter/barb I posted had a will save of 6(with Items), then I do have to admit I was considering scrapping a few point of WIS in favour of DEX, but it still isn't that bad, your was 7 IIRC.
also on damage output:

Barb/Fight(no rage):
1d6+1d8+2=10 at +6, +1

Monk:
3d6=10.5 at +4 or +3, +3 if you're allowed to flurry

Note: both get an additional +6 str damage on a successful hit.
So I don't think the f/b is that far behind on you.