117 The Battle for Gobwin Knob 105

[fendrin]

I think it was SteveMB who mentionned that unit popping whould/will be trivial in the resolution of the story, and I rather agree.

I would say that the significance varies wildly depending on the type of unit and when precisely it pops.

I could see it being very significant if Parson has destroyed most of Ansom's troops, but a few made it through and were about to slaughter Parson and his immediate guards/allies, then a dwagon popping unexpectedly could make a huge difference.

I will say however, that I hope things don't happen that way. It would be a deus ex machina, which would only weaken the story.

[DarkNewton]

I don't know if this has already been mentioned, but the RCC has made an assumption that FAQ is where Stanley is going, and at the moment, the only clue as to what he is doing, is a brief comment Stanley made before he left 'I'm going to have to do this on my own' or a similar statement. I initially took that to mean, 'ok he's going to go out and hunt down Ansom and just take the pliers in a hit-run engagement' now that didn't happen, but who's to say that's not what Stanley's doing, having been frustrated with city/army management, he just takes it on himself to pick up a bunch of powerful units and just beeline to where the other tools are, the closest one being wrapped in a big army, and the dish being trapped in a fortress of solitude.. makes me wonder where that fourth tool one is. It also highlights another fact, Charlie has something that Stanley is questing for, so Stanley has to have it in his mind that Charlie is someone he has to tackle sooner/later.

[fendrin]

It also highlights another fact, Charlie has something that Stanley is questing for, so Stanley has to have it in his mind that Charlie is someone he has to tackle sooner/later.

Hmm... It makes me wonder... looking at the storyline as a whole from a big picture, Stanley's quest makes a good structure to hang story arcs on.

It seems like there is a good (or at least not ridiculously low) chance that Parson & co will acquire the 'pliers in this battle (not necessarily this turn). Further, it is not out of the question for Charlie to have his force of Archons creamed (especially if Stanley unexpectedly returns to GK). The obvious next step for Stanley would then be to attack Charlie while he is weak.

It would be nice to see Parson waging an offensive campaign for once.

This is of course wild speculation...

[SteveMB]

I don't know if this has already been mentioned, but the RCC has made an assumption that FAQ is where Stanley is going

We know that Stanley was moving west as of last turn, and that the expeditionary force knows that. That implies that his course is consistent with the Coalition's assumption (Vinny specifically cites it as a reason Jillian's story "holds together").

Admittedly, it doesn't absolutely rule out the possibility that Stanley is headed for some other goal in the same general direction, but it makes it more likely that the obvious explanation (he's headed for Faq) is the correct one.

[DarkNewton]

Very true, but if his goal was to rebuild and restart, rather then burn a line to a tool, I'd have thought he'd have brought along his valuable casters, sure he was angry with Wanda, but to leave other resources like his other casters that would make it allot easier to rebuild? I mean sure if he's heading to faq he'll want to again build a lightbright-gameboard for battle overview.. so why not bring the think-a-mancer along as well at the very least. Instead he went with a no fat, stealth war-party.

[jtheory]

Very true, but if his goal was to rebuild and restart, rather then burn a line to a tool, I'd have thought he'd have brought along his valuable casters, sure he was angry with Wanda, but to leave other resources like his other casters that would make it allot easier to rebuild? I mean sure if he's heading to faq he'll want to again build a lightbright-gameboard for battle overview.. so why not bring the think-a-mancer along as well at the very least. Instead he went with a no fat, stealth war-party.

He does bring one caster with him, though he probably wishes his war party could be even leaner.

Remember, that's exactly how he started, and when he was at his most powerful -- he was a warlord with unquestioning warriors and dwagons that he could control (hence trust) absolutely. He's not the brightest guy, so I kind of think the vast majority of the other folks working with him were (from his POV) a necessary evil to handle running the aspects of Goblin Knob that were beyond him. He already hated being forced to trust others, and the disaster with Jillian breaking her suggestion spell was possibly his chance to set himself free of all that crap and start over... that makes sense psychologically to me. He was fleeing to the formula he knew worked.

I think he would have brought Wanda along if he could have -- but that was the worst part of the failure of that plan... he'd trusted Wanda with the heart of the defense of Goblin Knob, really, and she'd failed him and probably betrayed him (again, he doesn't understand the details... but it's hard for him to swallow that his master spellcaster somehow couldn't manage a seemingly straightforward mind-control spell...).

[EvilDoom]

Does it seem likely that Parson has actually set the dirtomancer's primary task to collapse the ground along the outer ring of the castle and thus crush the siege army and not just the underground army? The underground feint Parson setup to draw troops underground and then have the diromancer collapse tunnels on them is just too obvious and wouldn't win the battle on its own.

That would explain why Parson needs Ansom to get all his troops in position around the outer walls before he starts killing ground and would explain the dirtomancer's moral trepidations.

This would also explain why Parson was eager to make an alliance with Charlie earlier...Charlie's troops are all fliers.

Maybe I imagine too much..

[fendrin]

Remember, that's exactly how he started, and when he was at his most powerful -- he was a warlord with unquestioning warriors and dwagons that he could control (hence trust) absolutely.

Actually he started as a piker. He was a soldier with little choice but to follow orders.

[Mercadier]

Actually he started as a piker. He was a soldier with little choice but to follow orders.

That brings up something that's been nagging at me for a while. One of the many intriguing things about erfworld is real human dynamics in an "artificial" wargame universe. Thus people betray, love, feel guilt, torture and seduce while being popped in cities, food appears at the beginning of the turn, everyone has stats etc. The juxtaposition is startling and really quite effective.

And Stanley is a self-made man, rising up from being a Piker to Warlord to Heir Designate to Overlord.

Except he doesn't have ANY typical characteristics of a successful bootstrapper/entrepreneur. He is ruled by his emotions, poor people skills, jumps to conclusions, and is uninterested in planning and details. In fact his behavior in the strip so far is FAR more reminiscent of a spoiled only-child Prince who has had the Arkenhammer from birth. Certainly he is not an strong effective commander who quested for the Arkenhammer and won many victories for Gobwin Knob before a coalition of Royals started hammering away at him.

Any thoughts on this? Or am I getting overly worked up on minor backstory?

[fendrin]

He may have found the 'hammer and gotten spoiled because of the power it gave him. Especially seeing he was attuned to it, it wouldn't be nearly effective to force him to give it up to an existing warlord.

[SteveMB]

And Stanley is a self-made man, rising up from being a Piker to Warlord to Heir Designate to Overlord.

Except he doesn't have ANY typical characteristics of a successful bootstrapper/entrepreneur. He is ruled by his emotions, poor people skills, jumps to conclusions, and is uninterested in planning and details.

Another thought occurs to me. If units pop with their basic abilities already in place, perhaps that's another inherent advantage royals and nobles have over commoner Overlords -- the latter have to figure out things that the former just know from the beginning.

[Occasional Sage]

Another thought occurs to me. If units pop with their basic abilities already in place, perhaps that's another inherent advantage royals and nobles have over commoner Overlords -- the latter have to figure out things that the former just know from the beginning.

I'm assuming you're talking about commoners learning these things as they move up the rungs; wouldn't those upgraded knowledges and skills be part of the promotion?

Given this (which seems very reasonable), Erfers likely have a couple of stats to model these things, in which Stanley in particular seems particularly deficient.

ETA: I'd be surprised if units can "learn" outside of leveling up. There might be some discretionary points when leveling, which a unit can allocate to things like "tactics" or "leadership" or other things on a master list the Titans made; heck, even Sizemore's studying with the Hippiemancers might just be the fluff for spending lots of hoarded points on a new set of magical skills.

Re-edit: also, Mercadier, my impression is that he just sorta stumbled on the 'Hammer rather than deliberately questing for it.

[Fuzzypaws]

Does it seem likely that Parson has actually set the dirtomancer's primary task to collapse the ground along the outer ring of the castle and thus crush the siege army and not just the underground army? The underground feint Parson setup to draw troops underground and then have the diromancer collapse tunnels on them is just too obvious and wouldn't win the battle on its own.

That would explain why Parson needs Ansom to get all his troops in position around the outer walls before he starts killing ground and would explain the dirtomancer's moral trepidations.

This would also explain why Parson was eager to make an alliance with Charlie earlier...Charlie's troops are all fliers.

Maybe I imagine too much..

I hadn't even considered the possibility of collapsing the ground outside the walls under the main forces. That would certainly be an awesome ploy, especially if combined with a crushing blow to the forces already in the tunnels like flooding them with lava.

[fendrin]

...like flooding them with lava.

Gobwin Knob is Chekhov's Volcano.

Or at least that seems to be the prevailing opinion. I would not be surprised by it, but I'm also not convinced it will happen.

[Aquillion]

That brings up something that's been nagging at me for a while. One of the many intriguing things about erfworld is real human dynamics in an "artificial" wargame universe. Thus people betray, love, feel guilt, torture and seduce while being popped in cities, food appears at the beginning of the turn, everyone has stats etc. The juxtaposition is startling and really quite effective.

And Stanley is a self-made man, rising up from being a Piker to Warlord to Heir Designate to Overlord.

Except he doesn't have ANY typical characteristics of a successful bootstrapper/entrepreneur. He is ruled by his emotions, poor people skills, jumps to conclusions, and is uninterested in planning and details. In fact his behavior in the strip so far is FAR more reminiscent of a spoiled only-child Prince who has had the Arkenhammer from birth. Certainly he is not an strong effective commander who quested for the Arkenhammer and won many victories for Gobwin Knob before a coalition of Royals started hammering away at him.

Any thoughts on this? Or am I getting overly worked up on minor backstory?

Honestly, you're making faulty assumptions. These aren't the movies or a cheap self-help book; there's lots of wildly successful people in real life who aren't any better than Stanley.

First of all, we don't know what he was like before. Maybe he's really, really good at sucking up, and he just doesn't see any reason to do it at this point.

Second, the Arkenhammer makes him strong. Realize that the coalition outnumbers him something like 25-to-1, and he's still a threat. Yes, everyone's ganging up on him and beating him down now, but the sheer fact that they have to is an indicator that he's someone to worry about.

Third, there's a good chance he simply stumbled across the Arkenhammer by total luck (although he would consider it fate). In that respect, he's pretty much a spoiled guy who succeeded almost entirely based on luck and not any other factor.

But fourth, remember that Erfworld is not supposed to be an upwardly-mobile society. If Stanley had been an honest, hardworking unit, he would have stayed a chief warlord at the highest. He got where he is by being a sneaky, conniving, backstabbing runt who was also fantastically lucky, not by being a strong effective commander.

That's you're self-made man for you right there. Hard work and natural skill helps people succeed sometimes, of course, but sometimes sheer luck combined with treachery helps a lot more, especially in a world where you're not supposed to be able to advance the way Stanley has anyway.

(And also, we've never really seen Stanley himself fight. He might be a terror on the battlefield and a natural genius at 'battlefield-level' tactics, even if he sucks at the big picture.)

[Wender]

Third, there's a good chance he simply stumbled across the Arkenhammer by total luck (although he would consider it fate). In that respect, he's pretty much a spoiled guy who succeeded almost entirely based on luck and not any other factor.

(And also, we've never really seen Stanley himself fight. He might be a terror on the battlefield and a natural genius at 'battlefield-level' tactics, even if he sucks at the big picture.)

I think Wanda handed us the key here: Stanley was a in fact terror on the battlefield and his side was a force to be reckoned with--until he got fat-headed and started questing for Arkentools. Since he started to believe that his destiny was fated he stopped trying to create it himself. "The odds don't matter. Strategy doesn't matter. Those are details. That's your job." That attitude may get you somewhere in this complex and endlessly variable world if you're lucky and you play it right, but it won't get you anywhere in a wargame.

[Aquillion]

I would say that the significance varies wildly depending on the type of unit and when precisely it pops.

I could see it being very significant if Parson has destroyed most of Ansom's troops, but a few made it through and were about to slaughter Parson and his immediate guards/allies, then a dwagon popping unexpectedly could make a huge difference.

I will say however, that I hope things don't happen that way. It would be a deus ex machina, which would only weaken the story.

I really doubt units pop at any point other than the start of a turn (or, possibly, the end, or maybe a special 'maintenance phase' at some point.) I mean, that's sort of basic to strategy games of this sort... having one just pop at random in the middle of a battle would be really, really strange.

[Shadowdweller]

Stanley was a in fact terror on the battlefield and his side was a force to be reckoned with--until he got fat-headed and started questing for Arkentools. Since he started to believe that his destiny was fated he stopped trying to create it himself.

Or maybe the rest of the erfworld was simply unprepared to deal with a horde of dwagons, and he was able to conquer 10 cities (possibly fewer depending on how many Saline IV held) before they managed to ally and mount an effective defense.

[fendrin]

I really doubt units pop at any point other than the start of a turn (or, possibly, the end, or maybe a special 'maintenance phase' at some point.) I mean, that's sort of basic to strategy games of this sort... having one just pop at random in the middle of a battle would be really, really strange.

Oh, I absolutely agree. I was imagining Parson &co in a bad spot at the end of Ansom's turn, then have a dwagon pop at the start of theirs.

[Nargrakhan]

Stanley was a in fact terror on the battlefield and his side was a force to be reckoned with--until he got fat-headed and started questing for Arkentools. Since he started to believe that his destiny was fated he stopped trying to create it himself.

Or maybe the rest of the erfworld was simply unprepared to deal with a horde of dwagons, and he was able to conquer 10 cities (possibly fewer depending on how many Saline IV held) before they managed to ally and mount an effective defense.

Why not both? The theories are not incompatible, and they actually accommodate each other from a "big picture" prospective.

Stanley was a military terror and Erf was not ready for the war he brought to them. After Stanley became insanely single minded for the Tools, throwing away good battle sense, it was around the timeframe his opposition caught a second wind and rallied against their common enemy. The combination rapidly resulted in the situation we have now.

[Mercadier]

Honestly, you're making faulty assumptions. These aren't the movies or a cheap self-help book; there's lots of wildly successful people in real life who aren't any better than Stanley.

...

Second, the Arkenhammer makes him strong. Realize that the coalition outnumbers him something like 25-to-1, and he's still a threat. Yes, everyone's ganging up on him and beating him down now, but the sheer fact that they have to is an indicator that he's someone to worry about.

...

But fourth, remember that Erfworld is not supposed to be an upwardly-mobile society. If Stanley had been an honest, hardworking unit, he would have stayed a chief warlord at the highest. He got where he is by being a sneaky, conniving, backstabbing runt who was also fantastically lucky, not by being a strong effective commander.

I'm definitely making a lot of assumptions, and of course there are lots of different personality types of 'self made' individuals. But from what we've seen of Stanley so far it was extremely surprising that he rose from a Piker to Warlord. Especially since Erfworld is not a upwardly mobile society. You'd expect only driven, gifted, cunning, and/or charismatic individuals to be able to buck the odds and rise through the ranks. Stanley just seems to be lots of standard deviations away from a typical "successful" military/business/&c individual.

Obviously once he found the Arkenhammer the Dwagons can fill in any weaknesses. But he found the Arkenhammer while already Warlord (unclear if he was Chief Warlord or not) and it's earlier rise from Piker to Warlord, sans Arkenhammer, that I find intriguing.

[SteveMB]

Why not both? The theories are not incompatible, and they actually accommodate each other from a "big picture" prospective.

Stanley was a military terror and Erf was not ready for the war he brought to them. After Stanley became insanely single minded for the Tools, throwing away good battle sense, it was around the timeframe his opposition caught a second wind and rallied against their common enemy. The combination rapidly resulted in the situation we have now.

There's no reason the quest for the Arkentools would affect Stanley's tactical sense, but it probably led him into a strategic quagmire of making too many enemies -- attacking everybody who got in his way (wouldn't give him information he wanted, wouldn't let him pass through their territories, wouldn't ally with him against somebody who did the above, whatever).

[Zolem]

Typically the flashbacks that we're shown are accurate (I don't want to say "always" without checking carefully, but...).

The scene showing Saline's fall doesn't show the silhouettes of airline stewardesses, or even females. That rules out Charlie in my mind, since those are the only units he seems to have.

Also, Stanley is pretty direct; if he wasn't embarassed about the reason he hates Charlie, the whole world would know about it.

Ah yes, because you always have your highly recodnisable units at a coup you staged to make Stanly a barbarian so that it's easier to get his Arkentool for yourelf (as you don't know he's Heir Designate) and also making you easier to identify so people know how you opperate and puting the other two Arkentool wielders on guard.

I admit that Stanly would probably broadcast WHY he hates Charlie, but the problem is, who would beleive him? Certanly not Ansom.

[Wender]

There's no reason the quest for the Arkentools would affect Stanley's tactical sense, but it probably led him into a strategic quagmire of making too many enemies -- attacking everybody who got in his way (wouldn't give him information he wanted, wouldn't let him pass through their territories, wouldn't ally with him against somebody who did the above, whatever).

The questing did disable his tactical or strategic sense (to the extent that he's ever been good at strategy) for the simple reason that he stopped depending on them because he had "fate" instead. "That's your job" is fatal, especially since he has proven himself to be more or less worthless on defense.

And Nargrakhan is basically right, in that Stanley's fearsomeness on the battlefield definitely came from the Arkenhammer and the dwagons. But it's quite possible for a bad tactician to squander a superior force. He had to have some facility in wielding his power. Then he got his head all puffed up just as Ansom put together a massive coalition to unseat him.

Spoiler

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I'm interested to see what Ansom makes of Charlescomm forces arrayed around GK. First, he may realize that the plan with Transylvito fell through. He has no idea why, of course. Second, he may realize simply by their positioning that Charlescomm is not allied with Stanley. That may make him wonder if Charlie is thinking of taking GK for his own (which he is, if necessary), and wondering what will happen to the air force that he doesn't have to answer Charlie at GK and which may not have Charlie's help against Stanley. And there's nothing he can do about it.

By the time he will have something to do about it, Parson will have struck. It will be interesting to see what remains of the Alliance afterward. I have a feeling that Charlie will attempt to soak Ansom for as much as he can to seize GK. Ansom just might be enraged enough to do it, especially if the coalition disintegrates and he has no choice. Then the question is, what does Parson do? Stanley?

[fendrin]

And Nargrakhan is basically right, in that Stanley's fearsomeness on the battlefield definitely came from the Arkenhammer and the dwagons.

1) I don't think that's quite what Nargrakhan said...
2) Stanley had to have some battlefield skill without the 'hammer or he wouldn't have been promoted to Warlord, which we know happened before he found the 'hammer.

[Aquillion]

I'm definitely making a lot of assumptions, and of course there are lots of different personality types of 'self made' individuals. But from what we've seen of Stanley so far it was extremely surprising that he rose from a Piker to Warlord. Especially since Erfworld is not a upwardly mobile society. You'd expect only driven, gifted, cunning, and/or charismatic individuals to be able to buck the odds and rise through the ranks. Stanley just seems to be lots of standard deviations away from a typical "successful" military/business/&c individual.

Obviously once he found the Arkenhammer the Dwagons can fill in any weaknesses. But he found the Arkenhammer while already Warlord (unclear if he was Chief Warlord or not) and it's earlier rise from Piker to Warlord, sans Arkenhammer, that I find intriguing.

I dunno. My vision of a 'successful' businessman differs a lot from yours. I would probably say that the most important factor -- more important than cunning, more important than any natural gift or talent, more important than anything like that -- is ambition, and Stanley has that in spades. Working hard is more important than being naturally gifted, and there's no doubt that Stanley worked hard at rising in rank (which is, probably, unusual in Erfworld given how impossible a prospect it normally is.)

Anyone who has dealt with management a lot at any large business knows that talent is certainly not a perquisite! It doesn't hurt, sure, but drive is much more important -- a highly capable person with no ambition can hold the same basic job with a few pay raises for their whole life, while a merely competent shmoe with sharp ambition can advance very quickly.

(You did mention "driven" in the list of things necessary; he might not have the others, but he certainly has that.)

Additionally, contrary to what D&D teaches you, 'charisma' is not some magical quality that some people have, always, and other people lack, no matter what. For all we know, Stanley could be the greatest ass-kisser that ever kissed an ass; he just might feel he no longer has to stoop to that (or he got several lifetimes worth of it sucking up to King Saline IV, which explains why he's so nasty and aggressive now that he finally doesn't have to do it anymore.)

Finally, of course, Stanley is not advancing in a large company (where you have to, at least in theory, convince various people you have the necessary skills for a higher post) -- he's advancing through treachery, deceit, ambition, and (presumably) his ability to make one man in particular like him in one way or another. He's good at hoodwinking senile old farts, at backstabbing, and at everything else that helps you seize control of a faction. Most of these things don't help you actually lead a faction (maybe backstabbing a little, but I get the sense he relied on it too much), but so what? Saline IV obviously didn't have a very good sense of what sort of person he was anyway, and Stanley's "faction leadership attributes" never mattered a lick at any point in his rise aside from that.

[dr pepper]

In real world wargame terms, i can see a player moving a force to a previously unexplored hex. What's there? Draw a Terrain card. It says Desert/Forest/Mountain or whatever, and it also says "Special: draw 1 Fate Card", Fate Card says "Major Artifact: Arkenhammer. Dwagon Control, Pigeon Making. Owner becomes Level Capable. Must also draw a Quirk Card". Quirk Card says "Overconfident: -2 Planning, -2 Caution". These condiitons automatically apply to the stack leader, so the player puts them with the Stanley Card, which previously said "Piker: Off 2. Def 3 (4 in grp), Mov 4 (2 in grp).

[fendrin]

In real world wargame terms, i can see a player moving a force to a previously unexplored hex. What's there? Draw a Terrain card. It says Desert/Forest/Mountain or whatever, and it also says "Special: draw 1 Fate Card", Fate Card says "Major Artifact: Arkenhammer. Dwagon Control, Pigeon Making. Owner becomes Level Capable. Must also draw a Quirk Card". Quirk Card says "Overconfident: -2 Planning, -2 Caution". These condiitons automatically apply to the stack leader, so the player puts them with the Stanley Card, which previously said "Piker: Off 2. Def 3 (4 in grp), Mov 4 (2 in grp).

Heh, nice.

Taking the same idea in the complete opposite direction, Stanley could have been a nice guy before the the 'hammer twisted his mind and darkened his soul. I mean, fantasy literature is rife with artifacts changing the people who have them. The One Ring, anyone?

For that matter, we all know that power corrupts. Consider the lives of people who win the lottery or otherwise suddenly become rich (like some pro sports players, pop stars, and movie actors). Often times their lives become horrid tragedies, because of the way their personality changes.

[teratorn]

For that matter, we all know that power corrupts.

Not really, it is more a question of power attracting the corruptible.

[fendrin]

Not really, it is more a question of power attracting the corruptible.

Let's just agree to disagree, lest we drag this thread into an unwinnable philosophical debate.

Even though I really like those...