117 The Battle for Gobwin Knob 105

[fendrin]

Well any good schemer in any medium knows to keep their minions out of frame or every reader will guess the secret. However dramatic license aside you both have a point. However going with that theme of having that many atrefacts in one place (I assume you mean the calculater which has yet to be identified empirically as an artefact) could be something titanic.

I was referring to the fact that all three known arkentools are involved in this conflict (though not all at GK).

Time to kill a joke.
I was making a play on words with "titanic". The arkentools are tied to the titans, and there are only 3 known, so having them all involved is either a massive coincidence or the will of the titans. Either way, titanic covers it.

[SteveMB]

I was referring to the fact that all three known arkentools are involved in this conflict (though not all at GK).

Except that there are four known Arkentools.

[Occasional Sage]

Except that there are four known Arkentools.

Is, "Knows everything and has an answer prepared for every situation" part of the MB definition?

[fendrin]

Except that there are four known Arkentools.

heh, oops. That's what I get for trying to make a joke without checking my facts first.

[The Old Hack]

Is, "Knows everything and has an answer prepared for every situation" part of the MB definition?

I think it is at the very least part of the SteveMB definition.

[fendrin]

I think it is at the very least part of the SteveMB definition.

So that's what the MB in his username stands for!

[Mercadier]

Typically the flashbacks that we're shown are accurate (I don't want to say "always" without checking carefully, but...).

The scene showing Saline's fall doesn't show the silhouettes of airline stewardesses, or even females. That rules out Charlie in my mind, since those are the only units he seems to have.

This may be hair-splitting, but 'flashback scenes' tend to show what the character is saying, which may or may not be the whole unvarnished truth. The classic example is Erfworld 111 which shows Archons and Transylvito dance-fighting against dragons, an event that was in the future (and now clearly no longer happening)

So a character saying that Saline was slain by Gobwins is still only as true as far as they know...

[Occasional Sage]

This may be hair-splitting, but 'flashback scenes' tend to show what the character is saying, which may or may not be the whole unvarnished truth. The classic example is Erfworld 111 which shows Archons and Transylvito dance-fighting against dragons, an event that was in the future (and now clearly no longer happening)

So a character saying that Saline was slain by Gobwins is still only as true as far as they know...

That's not a classic example at all, as it's not a flashback. It's artistic license creating a pretty scene, but isn't pretending to actually show anything other than what's in Vinnie's head.

[SteveMB]

That's not a classic example at all, as it's not a flashback. It's artistic license creating a pretty scene, but isn't pretending to actually show anything other than what's in Vinnie's head.

I think Mercadier's implication is that the scene showing the fall of King Saline is depicting Sizemore's mental image of what happened, which may or may not be what actually happened.

[Occasional Sage]

I think Mercadier's implication is that the scene showing the fall of King Saline is depicting Sizemore's mental image of what happened, which may or may not be what actually happened.

Which seems to be the standard, I need to step back generally from my assertion about flashbacks in Erfworld. A quick browse shows not-nearly-as-many flashback SCENES as I thought; many of the discussions are illustrated in the here and now, with only the dialogue reaching back in time. Even the clearest of those is rather ambiguous.

[DCR]

I assume the thing that's taking Gobwin Knob turn after turn to pop is Parson's sword.

I think Stanley would've whined about that when he was complaining to Wanda about Parson not knowing anything.

Upon re-reading the comic, the complete lack of focus on what Gobwin Knob is popping gives a feel of either it's not important or ... um, it's not important. So I kinda derailed myself when I mentioned it earlier. Does function as a good tool for future plot complications, but irrelavant for the current needs of the story and story > all not story, I b'lieve.

[Aquillion]

Upon re-reading the comic, the complete lack of focus on what Gobwin Knob is popping gives a feel of either it's not important or ... um, it's not important. So I kinda derailed myself when I mentioned it earlier. Does function as a good tool for future plot complications, but irrelavant for the current needs of the story and story > all not story, I b'lieve.

We also don't know the timescale on which units pop. It could be that it takes fifty turns or something to pop one twoll.

[Richbin]

I think Stanley would've whined about that when he was complaining to Wanda about Parson not knowing anything.

Upon re-reading the comic, the complete lack of focus on what Gobwin Knob is popping gives a feel of either it's not important or ... um, it's not important. So I kinda derailed myself when I mentioned it earlier. Does function as a good tool for future plot complications, but irrelavant for the current needs of the story and story > all not story, I b'lieve.

I wonder if there will be any way insiide the book (when it gets to print), that we will see some kind of a graphic representation at the bottom or side of the page representing queue completion?

[Occasional Sage]

I wonder if there will be any way insiide the book (when it gets to print), that we will see some kind of a graphic representation at the bottom or side of the page representing queue completion?

That would

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potentially wreck some surprises for people who haven't followed this story online.

Which is kind of redundant.

[multilis]

Get out of my airspace... I am not leaving your airspace...

Rereading that, seems like that may be key phrases. If Charlie is unexpected than Parson will be adapting plans to include him.

We already know that thinkomancy trick on Ansom's group is planned.

[Occasional Sage]

Get out of my airspace... I am not leaving your airspace...

Rereading that, seems like that may be key phrases. If Charlie is unexpected than Parson will be adapting plans to include him.

Combine it with the panel of Ansom looking up the wall at the host of angelsarchons, and I think we can guess what course his plan will follow.

[fendrin]

angelsarchons

I don't want to be rude or anything, but could you stop doing that please?
I think we all get the 'Charlie's Angels' reference (it's been talked about enough).

'Archon' is an ancient greek term meaning, essentially, 'ruler'. Not in the sense of being royalty, more in the sense of a civil servant (they were often elected officials).

'Archon' can also refer to a being from the ancient gnostic cosmology, who serve the demiurgos (an evil non-divine being that assembled the world out of matter that already existed). The gnostic archons would be more like what we would call demons than like angels...

Hmm, if Charlie's archons are like gnostic archons, that would make Charlie the demiurgos (or maybe one of several)... Charlie is a Titan!

[Occasional Sage]

I don't want to be rude or anything, but could you stop doing that please?

Have I done that before? Sorry it twisted your tail.

[dr pepper]

Actually, "archon" is also used in christian heirarchal schemes.

It goes Angel, Archangel, Seraph ... Cherub. What's in the middle varies from list to list, but in english the words Principality, Power, Dominion, and Throne are often used. "Archon", which was a greek term for a governor or sometimes a general, is in the greek versions of some of those lists.

[ishnar]

I think Stanley would've whined about that when he was complaining to Wanda about Parson not knowing anything.

Upon re-reading the comic, the complete lack of focus on what Gobwin Knob is popping gives a feel of either it's not important or ... um, it's not important. So I kinda derailed myself when I mentioned it earlier. Does function as a good tool for future plot complications, but irrelavant for the current needs of the story and story > all not story, I b'lieve.

Everytime I've had a city under seige, what was going to pop next was ALWAYS important.

Then again, in Rome, I know I've mentioned it before, cities under siege can't pop units. So maybe that is it.

[Aquillion]

Another possibility is that Gobwin Knob has been popping units, constantly, all along. (In fact, we know the casters have been making crap golems and undead -- maybe those are items that go in a city's "production queue", but can only be selected when the right caster is there or something.) Or maybe it's just been rolling out a few more gobwins or whatever, and we haven't seen them because, well, it's not important, the same reason we don't usually see the nitty-gritty details of stacks.

I don't think it's even slightly important. If it's mentioned at all, it'll be for another "oh, wow, Erfworld is different from earth" moment as it shows what exactly popping is like.

[Justyn]

Actually, "archon" is also used in christian heirarchal schemes.

It goes Angel, Archangel, Seraph ... Cherub. What's in the middle varies from list to list, but in english the words Principality, Power, Dominion, and Throne are often used. "Archon", which was a greek term for a governor or sometimes a general, is in the greek versions of some of those lists.

I'm going to just link to several wikipedia pages, and say that we should drop this particular discussion before we cross the line into "flame war" and/or "thread lock" territory. And if you are wondering about the last one, I just like guinea pigs.

Everytime I've had a city under seige, what was going to pop next was ALWAYS important.

Then again, in Rome, I know I've mentioned it before, cities under siege can't pop units. So maybe that is it.

I am assuming that you are refering to Rome: Total War, and I have only play Medieval: Total war, so take this as you will.

Part of the reason for that (at least in the one I play) is because the fortress is cut off from the actual territory it watches over: you only control the fortress and not the territory (were to people are). And the reason that you cannot recuit new soldiers is because the enemy is cutting of supply lines, the ability to arm new soldiers from the besieged city, and orders from the commanders in said city.

In Erfworld, things are different. More likely than not, no supply lines are needed, because food magically pops into existance (unless it is additional, superfluous provisions). Units do not need to be called in from the houses around the cities, because people magically pop into existance in cities.

Most strategic wargames take the literal facts of warfare and abastract them so you don't have to bother micromanaging things like merchants and the bathroom scheduals of your troops. Erfworld takes the abstractions presant in strategic wargames and makes them into literal laws of reality, like the assumption that units appear in certain structures after being born, growing up, and either volenteering or being conscripted into military service, being trained and deployed, a mage taking years to learn the most basic of spells before moving onto the spells that will allow them to take control of the battlefield, or a dragon taking years to learn to use its innate abilities of flight and deadly breath; in Erfworld, the unit just magically pops into existance with the knowledge of how to do what it needs to do: a piker knows how to wear armor and use a pike, a caster knows how to use their discipline's spells, and a dwagon knows how to use its breath weapon and fly. Holy run-on sentance Batman!

[fendrin]

Have I done that before? Sorry it twisted your tail.

To be fair, I didn't go back and check who it was the other times. If it wasn't you, sorry. Mea culpa. I tried to make it read like a polite request and not an annoyed demand, but I quite possibly failed utterly.

[The Old Hack]

Everytime I've had a city under seige, what was going to pop next was ALWAYS important.

Then again, in Rome, I know I've mentioned it before, cities under siege can't pop units. So maybe that is it.

As a totally random aside, I once played an ancient DOS computer game named War. Cities could build units ranging from land armies through air units all the way to battleships -- which last took FOREVER. Once one of my battleship building cities came under attack of a major enemy offensive. It was more than half done building a battleship, and in that game changing production would cause the loss of all previous work. So instead I diverted all available forces to defense of the city.

For almost twenty turns I fought one of the most ferocious battles I had ever fought in that game to defend the city. And I was losing. Then, when it finally appeared that I would lose the city on my VERY NEXT TURN, the battleship was finished. Using its guns I shelled the units closest to the city and caused the attack wave to fall apart. This allowed me to switch the city to land armies and bought me time to bring in more reinforcements. Ultimately I turned the tide from there and won the game.

Perhaps unsurprisingly, I named that battleship Seventh Cavalry.

[ishnar]

Yes, I was refering to Rome: Total war, I somehow forgot to type out the entire title. However, I did in the previous two posts I made on this thread.

Most strategic wargames take the literal facts of warfare and abastract them so you don't have to bother micromanaging things like merchants and the bathroom scheduals of your troops. Erfworld takes the abstractions presant in strategic wargames and makes them into literal laws of reality,

Yes, I understand all that. The main point is: in Erfworld, the rules are based on a wargame, or just are just a hodgepodge of wargame rules and coventions. There is no justifying them because, "In Erfworld, things are different. More likely than not, no supply lines are needed, " In Erfworld, things ARE different, but it's not based on need, it's based on Wargame convention. Thus, the need for supply lines is irrelevant. What matters is that another wargame used the convention. Thus it's a valid explanation for an Erfworld rule. The reason a that other war game uses any convention is essentially irrelevant to why Erfworld will as well. Other wargames have "commander" ratings, so Erfworld does as well. Other wargames "pop" units, so Erfworld does too. Wargames are typically turn based, so Erfworld is too. Etc.

[chaoschristian]

In Erfworld, things are different. More likely than not, no supply lines are needed, because food magically pops into existance (unless it is additional, superfluous provisions). Units do not need to be called in from the houses around the cities, because people magically pop into existance in cities.

Or, supply isn't an issue for GK because GK is a major/capital city and as with many war games such cities are their own permanent/full supply source for purposes of unit supply and production.

Supply lines may be a factor in Erfworld, but I don't think we've ever been shown a situation in which a unit(s) has been cut off from supply.

The Tool is currently outside of his capital. We don't know his exact disposition relative to the city or to enemy units, but because of Ansom's plan it seems that Jillian's and Vinny's forces opted to try and cut ahead of him to force a confrontation rather than cut behind him and sever Stanley's supply line. That choice seems to have been driven by the desire to expedite Stanley's demise and so we are left with too little data on whether or not supply lines exist and if they do if it's possible to cut them.

Jillian herself was able to range about with a barbarian force and tells us how she worked to earn cash to support her troops. So, are commander units also sources of supply, or is it because Jillian is technically royalty and head of a faction that her treasury travels with her and it's the treasury itself that is the supply source?

Parson doesn't seem to have even made an inquery into the nature of supply and supply lines. But that could be because he doesn't consider his forces sufficient/capable of cutting supply and is more focused on the immediate need of reducing Ansom's siege capability and defending GK's walls, and so for him it's not even a question at the moment.

Finally we have Charlie's Archons who are currently in contact with two groups of non-allied forces, one before them and one around them (although both are below them). Is the supply status of the Archons effected in any way by this?

And really lastly, we seen what, four turns of Erfword time this far? Perhaps units are considered to be in supply for a set number of turns.

Or perhaps it doesn't matter at all, and the creators of Erfworld decided to eliminate it as a factor for the same reason some game designers eliminate supply as a factor in their games - it's cumbersome and bogs down the gameplay (or in this case, storytelling).

[Dwagon]

Just a question, why are all those archons dressed for dance-fighting? Coming from Charlie I would have expected their normal gear on.

Not that I'm complaining, I like those dresses, just curious ;)

[SteveMB]

Just a question, why are all those archons dressed for dance-fighting? Coming from Charlie I would have expected their normal gear on.

Not that I'm complaining, I like those dresses, just curious ;)

When the air expedition switched to dance-fighting outfits, Vinny commented that "[Stanley's] got those Knights. They're rockers...." GK still has most of the Knights; Charlie is preparing to go up against them if it comes down to taking Parson and the armband by force.

[PePe QuiCoSE]

I assumed it was just to show that from the Archons, some of them were supposed to be on the transylvito express (dance outfit) while others were sent directly from Charlie (stewardess outfit).

[Justyn]

Yes, I was refering to Rome: Total war, I somehow forgot to type out the entire title. However, I did in the previous two posts I made on this thread.

I forgot that you wrote it out fully previously; and in retrospect, my statement there can come off as a little condisending, so sorry.

Yes, I understand all that. The main point is: in Erfworld, the rules are based on a wargame, or just are just a hodgepodge of wargame rules and coventions. There is no justifying them because, "In Erfworld, things are different. More likely than not, no supply lines are needed, " In Erfworld, things ARE different, but it's not based on need, it's based on Wargame convention. Thus, the need for supply lines is irrelevant. What matters is that another wargame used the convention. Thus it's a valid explanation for an Erfworld rule. The reason a that other war game uses any convention is essentially irrelevant to why Erfworld will as well. Other wargames have "commander" ratings, so Erfworld does as well. Other wargames "pop" units, so Erfworld does too. Wargames are typically turn based, so Erfworld is too. Etc.

Not even going to dip into the philosophical crap that can go on, aside from that Erfworld is a world with what we would define as game-like qualities, not a game.

I was noting that while the Total War games are games that abstract things about the real world to make a fun game.

Erfworld is the absolute inverse of this. Erfworld is a universe that has qualities that we define as game-like; this is because we have games that function simular to the way that Erfworld functions. To say that turns and stats are conventions in Erfworld is the same as saying that gravity or the states of matter are conventions here.

And before anyone says anything, apparently, I treat this more philosophically than many of the people on the board; I am assuming* this, becuase many people here are treating Erfworld as if it were some kind of amazingly immersive MMORPG.

*By assuming, I mean: "based on absolutely no facts beyond my gut feeling". So, that means that I am automatically right.

Another quote and responce in the spoiler.

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Or, supply isn't an issue for GK because GK is a major/capital city and as with many war games such cities are their own permanent/full supply source for purposes of unit supply and production.

Supply lines may be a factor in Erfworld, but I don't think we've ever been shown a situation in which a unit(s) has been cut off from supply.

The Tool is currently outside of his capital. We don't know his exact disposition relative to the city or to enemy units, but because of Ansom's plan it seems that Jillian's and Vinny's forces opted to try and cut ahead of him to force a confrontation rather than cut behind him and sever Stanley's supply line. That choice seems to have been driven by the desire to expedite Stanley's demise and so we are left with too little data on whether or not supply lines exist and if they do if it's possible to cut them.

Jillian herself was able to range about with a barbarian force and tells us how she worked to earn cash to support her troops. So, are commander units also sources of supply, or is it because Jillian is technically royalty and head of a faction that her treasury travels with her and it's the treasury itself that is the supply source?

Parson doesn't seem to have even made an inquery into the nature of supply and supply lines. But that could be because he doesn't consider his forces sufficient/capable of cutting supply and is more focused on the immediate need of reducing Ansom's siege capability and defending GK's walls, and so for him it's not even a question at the moment.

Finally we have Charlie's Archons who are currently in contact with two groups of non-allied forces, one before them and one around them (although both are below them). Is the supply status of the Archons effected in any way by this?

And really lastly, we seen what, four turns of Erfword time this far? Perhaps units are considered to be in supply for a set number of turns.

Or perhaps it doesn't matter at all, and the creators of Erfworld decided to eliminate it as a factor for the same reason some game designers eliminate supply as a factor in their games - it's cumbersome and bogs down the gameplay (or in this case, storytelling).

All of this over a part of a sentence that is ment to note the fact that we are pretty booping sure that logistics as we know it does not exist in Erfworld. JEEZ.