Erfworld 119, page 107

[Earendill]

I also loved the Jack & Jill reference - kinda like Manpower the Temporary and Stanley the Tool....

Anyway - I am also surprised (and a bit scared) that Parsons found out the name after he become "ruthless"....He did talk with Wanda many times before. Finding the Foolamancer's name was a priority (according to Duty) both to him and to her. Yet it is only now that he managed to find the name .... HOW? What did he do to Wanda to get this info? I'm scared for her....

[Requiem_Jeer]

Gamebird, the reason for the Foolamancer going crazy, and Misty croaking had the same reason: The link broke. Maggie said as much.

[OnDroid]

Anyway - I am also surprised (and a bit scared) that Parsons found out the name after he become "ruthless"....He did talk with Wanda many times before. Finding the Foolamancer's name was a priority (according to Duty) both to him and to her. Yet it is only now that he managed to find the name .... HOW? What did he do to Wanda to get this info? I'm scared for her....

Might not be that way. He might knew before, but Maggie can only send Thinkagrams in GK turn (which was over when Wanda recovered her ability to speak) , so there probably was just "storytelling pause" on the name.

[MattR]

Would i be safe suggesting that 'Capital Site' Implies that only certain places/cities can be capitals?... rather then just elevating any city you feel like.

[SteveMB]

Anyway - I am also surprised (and a bit scared) that Parsons found out the name after he become "ruthless"....He did talk with Wanda many times before. Finding the Foolamancer's name was a priority (according to Duty) both to him and to her. Yet it is only now that he managed to find the name .... HOW? What did he do to Wanda to get this info? I'm scared for her....

When Parson first found out that the Foolamancer's name was important, Wanda and The Universe Outside Wanda's Head were not on speaking terms. When he first encountered Wanda after she came around, she was headed down to the courtyard for the "important" job of uncroaking the flying units she'd brought down with the tower defenses, and continued "boopin' around with her toys" into the following night. When Parson finally decided to interrupt and talk to her, it was about the more pressing issue of whether she was planning to fly to Stanley's rescue. Apparently, Parson remembered to ask if Wanda knew the Foolamancer's name after that issue was cleared up -- until then, he'd either had no opportunity to talk to Wanda, or his attention was focused on more immediate concerns.

[Daedalus73]

Varia, I think you may have hit the nail on the head as to what happens next. Also, I'm assuming that "Jack" is a pop culture reference; can anyone enlighten me?

The "Jack" that keeps popping into my mind at this point is schizo Jack from Fight Club.

"I am Jack's smirking revenge."
"I am Jack's medulla oblongata."
"I am Jack's complete lack of surprise."

etc etc.

[fendrin]

Holy boop.

Boop the booping holy boop.

I thought a while ago that perhaps Wanda was not originally popped as a croakamancer. Now I believe it even more.

If Wanda is not the predictamancer, where is the predictamancer now? Sure, maybe the predictamancer croaked in the battle, but I have a feeling not... why would Stanley capture the foolamancer but not hte predictamancer?

Who could have allowed Stanley to find Faq? Only the foolamancer or the predictamancer.

The summoning spell is joint findamancy and predictamancy, yet Wanda makes a point of saying they need a findamancer (twice), not mentioning the predictamancy part. Skirting around the truth because of Duty, perhaps?

[Dr. Simon]

I hadn't thought of the Jack Napier reference, but that's great too.

It probably works, like much of Erfworld, on many levels. The Foolamancer=The Joker is not an absolute so your other ideas fit nicely too.

When Stanley calls the Foolamancer "a joker", the picture of the Foolamancer looks like The Joker. When Stanley calls him "a fool" he quotes The Fool from King Lear. When Stanley calls him "a clown" he quotes Pennywise the Clown from Stephen King's "It".

[SnowballMan]

He's not trying to funnel enemies anywhere. They can't move, remember? It's not their turn!

There are a number of turn based games which allow a unit to move on the opponent's turn under specific situations. One of the most common being to avoid an area effect, such as jumping away from a grenade.

[John Campbell]

Fairly early on, Wanda comments that she has skills beyond Croakamancy; they're just not where her interest lies.

[PePe QuiCoSE]

Who could have allowed Stanley to find Faq? Only the foolamancer or the predictamancer.

The summoning spell is joint findamancy and predictamancy, yet Wanda makes a point of saying they need a findamancer (twice), not mentioning the predictamancy part.

You know what? I'm sold. Initially i thought that the conversation she had with Sizemore in the beginning indicated that she was a Croakamancy, but it only implies it.
Also, if true, it fits so fine that all this is orchestrated by her (so much for Charlie being the Magnifcient Bastard). The fall of FAQ, allying with Stanley, summoning Parson... i wonder what did she actually predicted for herself...

[tomaO2]

Holy boop.


I thought a while ago that perhaps Wanda was not originally popped as a croakamancer. Now I believe it even more.

If Wanda is not the predictamancer, where is the predictamancer now? Sure, maybe the predictamancer croaked in the battle, but I have a feeling not... why would Stanley capture the foolamancer but not hte predictamancer?

It's pretty obvious to me what has happened to the predicomancer. She's dead.

Recall back when Sizemore was explaining that Stanly took "a number" of the casters with him on his expedition while the king got killed? That implies at least one caster remained or else Sizemore would have said "all the casters". Since all but 2 of the casters we know about are from FAQ you can't have "a number" if it was just 1 or 2 (that would be "a caster" or "a couple of casters", at best) "A number" is something you use for 4 or more, typically.

Casters are also rare. The most sensible idea is that they captured the predicamancer, Wanda and Jack when they wiped out FAQ. Then, later, when Stanly took Sizemore, Wanda, Misty and Jack away for his little mission, the Gobwins killed the king. The Predicamancer was also probably left in the castle and died in the coup. Why? Who knows but it fits with what we know.

After that is done, Stanly comes back, asserts his control and begins his quest for the Arkentools.

I've been considering this possibility ever since we first learned of FAQ but this latest page makes it a near certainty.

[MattR]

I concur, it does fit neatly that shes the predicamancer. Living life always knowing whats going to happen would be fairly awful, i can under stand why she woudlnt want to continue doing that. Anyone who argues that her fumble recently with Jillian implies she cant be the predictamancer should keep that in mind.

The problem i originally had with Wanda somehow manipulating Stanley into attacking FAQ was marred by the fact that because it was a bubble kingdom she would lack the ability to contact him without outside help like Maggie. Being a Predicamancer she didnt need to contact him.. just screw up the defenses at the right moment and he'd swoop right in.

[MattR]

''It's pretty obvious to me what has happened to the predicomancer. She's dead.

Recall back when Sizemore was explaining that Stanly took most of the casters with him on his expedition while the king got killed? That implies at least one caster remained. Casters are also rare. The most sensible idea is that they captured the predicomancer and then Stanly left her to die in his coup.

I've been considering this possibility ever since we first learned of FAQ but this latest page makes it a near certainty. ''

As usual youve confused the issue. So what if Stanley left a caster with the King Saline who then died? even if said caster was croaked too it has nothing to do with a predictamancer in FAQ.. which is a different side then the one where the gobwin 'rebellion' happened.

We don't know when Stanley is supposed to have attacked FAQ.. but i'm fairly certain it was after Saline was croaked otherwise Saline would be getting the blame for the attack not Stanley.

Why is it a sensible idea that Stanley would abandon a valuable Predictamancer?

[PePe QuiCoSE]

It might not be important, but it's interesting that the predictamancer (if it's actually Wanda) predicted that Faq would fall and that the consequence of that was that Jillian was popped, which so far has been the wild car in these events and has a really close relation with Wanda.

[kreszantas]

"Order Sizemore" to start the traps does not have a very good tone to "the friendship" they appeared to have so Parson basically took the "I have to hate you" seriously otherwise he would have just asked him to do so. I see Sizemore possibly being the one that "breaks" mentally and Maggie will have to fix him up to get through the turn.

The veil being able to be restored will make or break Stanley going directly to FAQ or have some other distraction to get by Cesar and the gang.

Jack Napier is the Joker's name and was stated a few times in earlier threads but was largely discounted.

Wanda being the predictamancer could be plauseable and she does state she has practiced many schools of magic, just none that she was interested in but Croakamancy. This could be merely a "phase" of life for a predictamancer to change ways to "survive"

So this is a fitting filler strip prior to the action!

[Olibarro]

Wanda states very clearly that she is a Croakamancer.

The spell was forged by Findamancers and Predictamancers, and she states that it needs to be cast by a Findamancer. She doesn't say it also requires a Predictamancer for the casting, only that Predictamancers helped in its creation.

We know that casters can cast spells not of their specialty. Some are better at it than others. We've yet to see any indication that casters can or do ever change their specialty outright. FAQ had a Predictamancer. Wanda is a Croakamancer. Based on everything we know, it is unlikely that they are the same person.

[PePe QuiCoSE]

Wanda states very clearly that she is a Croakamancer.

Well, looking things in the perspective as to see the supposition true, Stanley may not know that she is a Predictamancer. She may have never told him... maybe only Jillian knows she was a Predictamancer (the only time she refers as of Wanda is 'A caster')

[fendrin]

It's pretty obvious to me what has happened to the predicomancer. She's dead.

Recall back when Sizemore was explaining that Stanly took most of the casters with him on his expedition while the king got killed? That implies at least one caster remained. Casters are also rare. The most sensible idea is that they captured the predicamancer, Wanda and Jack when they wiped out FAQ. Then, later, when Stanly took Sizemore, Wanda and Jack away for his little mission, the Gobwins killed the king. The Predicamancer was also probably left in the castle and died in the coup. Why? Who knows but it fits with what we know.

After that is done, Stanly comes back, asserts his control and begins his quest for the Arkentools.

I've been considering this possibility ever since we first learned of FAQ but this latest page makes it a near certainty.

The only way a predictamancer-protected overlord can fall unexpectedly is if the is if the predictamancer turns traitor (or is no good, which we know is not the case with Faq's predictamancer).

Banhammer's demise was a surprise to Jillian (or at least, the timing of it). We know that the predictamancer knew about it ahead of time (otherwise Banhammer wouldn;t have popped Jillian). If the predictamancer wanted to prevent it, Jillian would have been there to fight. Thus the predictamancer had to have turned (and for that mattter, needed Jillian to exist for some reason... maybe Banhammer was croaked before Stanley captured the 'casters).

If the croaking of Saline IV predated the fall of Faq (extremely unlikely, in my opinion), then the predictamancer also would have had to turn against Saline, for the same reason. If the predictamancer told Saline, Saline would not have let Stanley go... preventing the uprising.

Wanda states very clearly that she is a Croakamancer.

Have you considered that a) she might be lying or b) she considers herself a croakamancer, and despite having originally been a predictamancer, calls herself a corakamancer? For that matter, we know her occupation is 'Chief Croakamancy Officer', so despite her casting specialty, she can call herself a croakamancer without lying.

EDIT: For that matter, although we have no evidence that they can change their specialty, we also have no evidence that they can't, either.

... maybe only Jillian knows she was a Predictamancer (the only time she refers as of Wanda is 'A caster')

Jack must know. In fact, It wouldn't surprise me if he reveals it sometime soon...

[St.Sinner]

Spoiler

Show

--50 ways to leave your lover

Strange, that's exactly the first thing I thought of too when I saw the name. I like that song. Only after reading this thread did I realise the multiple significances of 'Jack'.

[Earendill]

King Banhammer has a Predictamancer. The Predictamancer is essential for the veiling of the kingdom. As long as the Predictamancer/Foolamancer team works well the kingdom of FAQ is indetectable so he/she was probably pretty good.

The Predictamancer predicts that king Banhammer needs an heir. He/she does not predict though the actual conquest by Stanley (or we would have seen the troops called back to defend). First mistake after years of effectiveness ? or plain treason?

My favourite thesis - Wanda was a traitor to king Banhammer. Now bonified with - she was popped as predictamancer and was good at it but never liked it - she liked croakamancy instead but could not use it in FAQ (where she was also treated like crap). Bad popping issues - the personality does not fit the assigned function - also see the cases of Jillian, Sizemore, Stanley etc...

It seems very easy for the predictamancer in charge with assisting the veiling to let Stanley see the kingdom of FAQ and attack it - Stanley would not even know it was her action.

Jillian assumes Stanley is controlling Wanda through a spell - not true says the (now dead) Jaclyn.

It does make some sense

[Gamebird]

The only way a predictamancer-protected overlord can fall unexpectedly is if the is if the predictamancer turns traitor (or is no good, which we know is not the case with Faq's predictamancer).

I don't think that's necessarily so. I don't know enough about predictamancy to say.

- Perhaps predictamancy only answers specific questions cast during long and difficult spells, answered by the whim of the Titans. Like Commune in D&D.

- Perhaps predictamancy has a failure rate and the caster is not informed of whether the spell failed (and generated a false prophecy) or succeeded (and revealed the future). Like Augury and Divination in D&D.

- Perhaps something else happened to interrupt the regular cycle of learning about the future: romantic entanglement, other duties, a fickle ruler, etc. Like real life.

Or maybe all three.

[SteveMB]

If the croaking of Saline IV predated the fall of Faq (extremely unlikely, in my opinion), then the predictamancer also would have had to turn against Saline, for the same reason. If the predictamancer told Saline, Saline would not have let Stanley go... preventing the uprising.

Er, you lost me with this part.

[AngryAngel]

It's pretty obvious to me what has happened to the predicomancer. She's dead.

Recall back when Sizemore was explaining that Stanly took "a number" of the casters with him on his expedition while the king got killed? That implies at least one caster remained or else Sizemore would have said "all the casters". Since all but 2 of the casters we know about are from FAQ you can't have "a number" if it was just 1 or 2 (that would be "a caster" or "a couple of casters", at best) "A number" is something you use for 4 or more, typically.

Casters are also rare. The most sensible idea is that they captured the predicamancer, Wanda and Jack when they wiped out FAQ. Then, later, when Stanly took Sizemore, Wanda, Misty and Jack away for his little mission, the Gobwins killed the king. The Predicamancer was also probably left in the castle and died in the coup. Why? Who knows but it fits with what we know.

After that is done, Stanly comes back, asserts his control and begins his quest for the Arkentools.

I've been considering this possibility ever since we first learned of FAQ but this latest page makes it a near certainty.

I have no problem with this notion. If Stanley was plotting the overthrow of the old King, it would make sense for him to be elsewhere when the King was killed. And depending on how indiscriminate gobwins are when they're in a killing mood, it might make sense to take most (but not all) of the realm's most valuable units with you while you are 'elsewhere'. Plausible deniability, and all.

Why is it a sensible idea that Stanley would abandon a valuable Predictamancer?

Because he's shrewd (sometimes) but not smart? Because he had to sacrifice one of them, so he picked the one he personally disliked the most? Who knows, it's just an idea.

[AngryAngel]

The only way a predictamancer-protected overlord can fall unexpectedly is if the is if the predictamancer turns traitor (or is no good, which we know is not the case with Faq's predictamancer).

Or if they are simply wrong, or unlucky. I may predict a ninety percent chance that our city won't fall this turn, based on all available data, and if our data are wrong, or incomplete, we're booped. Or our enemies may nail that other ten percent today.

[fendrin]

I don't think that's necessarily so. I don't know enough about predictamancy to say.

- Perhaps predictamancy only answers specific questions cast during long and difficult spells, answered by the whim of the Titans. Like Commune in D&D.

- Perhaps predictamancy has a failure rate and the caster is not informed of whether the spell failed (and generated a false prophecy) or succeeded (and revealed the future). Like Augury and Divination in D&D.

- Perhaps something else happened to interrupt the regular cycle of learning about the future: romantic entanglement, other duties, a fickle ruler, etc. Like real life.

Or maybe all three.

We know that predictamancy is reliable enough to allow the predictamancer to guide the Foolamancer reliably for a significant length of time (It would have to be as long as Faq existed, really). Thus predictamancy, however it works, is pretty darn consistent and accurate.

If the predictamancer knew Banhammer was going to fall, they would be forced (by Duty) to do whatever they could to prevent it (such as do they're best to find out when it would happen and notify Jillian so that the troops can be around to prevent it). Thus, as Jillian (if we believe her) did not know about it ahead of time, the predictamancer did not tell her, which means the predictamancer did not do their Duty...

...and we know that there is only one way for a unit to not do their Duty.

Er, you lost me with this part.

Perhaps that's because I wrote it backwards and left bits out. Let me try again.

1. If the predictamancer was croaked by the Gobwin uprising (as suggested by tomaO2), then the p-mancer had to have been captured prior to the fall of Saline (otherwise the p-mancer wouldn't have been there to be croaked).

2. If the p-mancer had already been captured, then the p-mancer's Duty would have compelled them to alert Saline about the impending uprising.

3. If Saline knew about the uprising, he would have made sure Stanley was around to stop it.

4. Thefore by applying modus tollens a few times and closing out the assumed premise, we know that if the predictamancer was captured before the fall of Saline, then the predictamancer must have betrayed Saline.

Basically, it's the same logic as to why the p-mancer must have betrayed Banhammer.

Or if they are simply wrong, or unlucky. I may predict a ninety percent chance that our city won't fall this turn, based on all available data, and if our data are wrong, or incomplete, we're booped. Or our enemies may nail that other ten percent today.

See my response to GameBird above. Basically, if what you were saying was correct, then every one in ten groups flying near Faq would have seen it. With those odds, Faq's bubble would have burst long ago.

[Laurentio II]

2. If the p-mancer had already been captured, then the p-mancer's Duty would have compelled them to alert Saline about the impending uprising.

Captured or turned units have very low Loyal, and therefore Duty. I don't want to say that you are wrong, but could be.

[Balance]

It probably works, like much of Erfworld, on many levels. The Foolamancer=The Joker is not an absolute so your other ideas fit nicely too.

When Stanley calls the Foolamancer "a joker", the picture of the Foolamancer looks like The Joker. When Stanley calls him "a fool" he quotes The Fool from King Lear. When Stanley calls him "a clown" he quotes Pennywise the Clown from Stephen King's "It".

You can pull in all sorts of references with a name like Jack, probably including some the authors never intended. I've made a list of some I've seen just in this thread, along with a couple of my own.

The Many References of Foolamancer Jack:

Jack Nicholson as Jack Napier/The Joker

Jack and Jill

jackanapes--a: an impudent or conceited fellow b: a saucy or mischievous child. Derived from "Jack Napis", which may also have inspired the name Jack Napier. Also the title of a Victorian children's story, I believe.

MPD Jack of Fight Club

Jack Point, the jester in Gilbert and Sullivan's The Yeomen of the Guard. (A rather tragic fool.)

The Fool on the Hill (indirect, "Jack and Jill went up the hill....")

[fendrin]

Captured or turned units have very low Loyal, and therefore Duty. I don't want to say that you are wrong, but could be.

Duty is not a stat, it is a Natural Thinkamancy.
You do your Duty, or you do not.

Failing to do your Duty is a betrayal.
A betrayal is more likely with a low loyalty.
Being captured lowers a units loyalty.
Therefore a captured unit is more likely to fail to do it's Duty.

This is not in any way contradictory to what I said.

[Lord Quintus]

I've read the whole thread and I don't believe that anyone else has brought this up. Jillian actually says "One city at a time, as determined by Predictamancer." Not "...as determined by the Predictamancer." This could be a typo or it could imply that there were several Predictamancers. If not one for each city, than at least more than just King Banhammer's personal one.

Just food for thought.