122 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 110

[The Old Hack]

Word to the wise folks:
If you can't master basic observation, don't expect the big boys to play nice when you stick your foot in your mouth.

Why use your foot when mixing metaphors will do?

[Aquillion]

We know from Parson's dragon attack on the siege that the attacker can choose to withdraw from a battle, and from Vinny's suggestions in the donut that attackers can go through a hex without having to kill all enemy units in the hex, so I'm guessing the Warlords have split up ahead & behind Stanley so that it will be harder for him to do either of those things.
Plus it'll be a more interesting fight to watch :P

It doesn't seem like a very good strategy to use against highly-mobile, high-HP, high-attack units to me, though. Reminds me of a certain scene from early in Legend of the Galactic Heroes, in fact...

Stanley can just bust up one half of their forces with his dwagons, break through and outrun the other half, then turn around next turn when he's healed and kill the survivors. Assuming he cares about finishing them off, that is.

Not saying it's what will happen, but breaking your forces in half against dwagons seems like a spectacularly bad idea.

[Saladman]

I'm more interested in Transylvito battle tactics here. Why does each warlord have a swarm of bats around them? Why bother with this "outflanking" maneuver? Do they even have a chance to kill Stanley?

I don't think this is any great mystery. Stacks up to eight units get a warlord bonus. If you've got weak but cheap units and warlords with good command bonuses you can do some damage and afford the losses. We've seen that Vinnie is willing to spend bats when he needs to. In fact, this is bringing back fond memories of Warlords II. Get a hero with an item bonus to leadership and round out his stack with bats or scouts.

Further, we see in panel four here that Caesar Borgata came out personally to provide "leadership." I'm assuming that's game-mechanics leadership, not only tactical or intangible leadership. So that looks like a Chief Warlord's bonus on top of the basic warlord stack bonus. They'll lose bats, but "bats we got." So we're looking partly at number-crunching here, a long tradition in war games, not only pure tactics.

The flank is tactics, but its not totally inconceivable that a real-life wargame would have rules for being out-flanked or hit in the rear. The comic even starts with a succesful breaching of Stanley the Plaid's right flank at Warchalking. Which would explain why they would bother.

Plus however hard Caesar Borgata, Vinnie and the rest can hit in their own right. (And I'm guessing Borgata is pretty high level and/or bad-assed. I had vaguely assumed, without evidence, that Vinnie might be his side's chief warlord, but apparently not.)

First, there are special rules surrounding Transylvito bats. We can see here that they can be picked up and carried like items! Next, Vinnie says that he is only packin' eight bats. That suggests that they are also used as some form of weapon. Furthermore, they seem to provide more information than a standard scout, giving the warlord the ability to see through there eyes as evidenced here. Finally, bats can be used defensively as seen here.

Clearly the bats are excellent scouts (some sort of natural -mancy built into that unit or that side). It is possible they're not thinking or free-willed units to the same degree that most other units are. I don't follow you on the rest. "Only packin' eight bats" could just be a loose description of commanding a common, possibly non-sentient unit. And the defensive use proposed doesn't mean they're weapons not units, it could have been as simple as ordering the bats to engage first, giving the named characters enough tactical time to move past the dwagons. Now Stanley is the one who wants to punch through, so just feeding bats to dwagons to buy time won't be sufficient for Transylvito.

[Aquillion]

Clearly the bats are excellent scouts (some sort of natural -mancy built into that unit or that side). It is possible they're not thinking or free-willed units to the same degree that most other units are. I don't follow you on the rest. "Only packin' eight bats" could just be a loose description of commanding a common, possibly non-sentient unit. And the defensive use proposed doesn't mean they're weapons not units, it could have been as simple as ordering the bats to engage first, giving the named characters enough tactical time to move past the dwagons. Now Stanley is the one who wants to punch through, so just feeding bats to dwagons to buy time won't be sufficient for Transylvito.

The bats could be used by the group he's trying to punch through to try and slow him down enough to 'close the trap' on him when the other side hits. (Like I mentioned before, it could be catastrophic for the Don's forces if Stanley just rushes one side, kills a warlord or two, then breaks through before the other side can arrive.)

I'd also like to point out that (Foolamancer aside for a moment), Stanley's decision to break through looks, at least from what we know at the moment, to be exactly the right choice; and he made it instantly, which was also extremely important given how little time he had. This would seem to support the theory that while he sucks at large-scale leadership and planning, he's actually a very effective warlord when he gets into combat personally.

[ReccaSquirrel]

Again, I want to point this out because people seem to have forgotten this fact.


1) It is Stanley's turn. That means it is his move only. VInny and company cannot move but they can engage.
2) Ansom's group has no veiling abilities at all.
3) The images show a group of units behind and in front of Stanley. The only way the group of units behind Stanley could have gotten there is if they were either veiled, moved into position this turn, or are actually illusions. As we have established that they cannot have moved and Ansom can't veil, we must conclude it is an illusion.

[fendrin]

Again, I want to point this out because people seem to have forgotten this fact.


1) It is Stanley's turn. That means it is his move only. VInny and company cannot move but they can engage.
2) Ansom's group has no veiling abilities at all.
3) The images show a group of units behind and in front of Stanley. The only way the group of units behind Stanley could have gotten there is if they were either veiled, moved into position this turn, or are actually illusions. As we have established that they cannot have moved and Ansom can't veil, we must conclude it is an illusion.

We know they cannot move from one hex to another, but we also know (or at least strongly suspect) that they can move around within their current hex freely.

[shamelessmerc]

The only way the group of units behind Stanley could have gotten there is if they were either veiled, moved into position this turn, or are actually illusions. As we have established that they cannot have moved and Ansom can't veil, we must conclude it is an illusion.

WARNING: faulty assumption underpining an incorrect conclusion.

People haven't forgotten, they are just not using the same assumptions as you are.

By 'assumption' I mean like in engineering ie. Pi=3.14, g=9.81m/s/s

your assumption is that the stack behind Stanley couldn't remain hidden without a veil, I disagree as do some others on this thread.

[shamelessmerc]

Why use your foot when mixing metaphors will do?

Sorry, you've lost me there.

I really enjoy mixed metaphors as the imagry is often surreal. I use them in conversation all the time as they lend a grandiloquent air to my petty and smallminded opinions.

<deadpan>
<deadpan>
<deadpan>
<deadpan>
<deadpan>

<grin>

[Freederick]

Lastly, an aside related to all the speculation about the Foolamancer's actions: I note that Parson's last instruction to him was that he should try to convince Stanley to return to Gobwin Knob. Given that we are dealing with a master Foolamancer here, the term 'convince' suddenly takes on far more meaning than mere persuasion. And if Jack has decided that this is an order that should be obeyed... well.

I'd like to note that from Stanley's current position, the shortest route to GK goes over FAQ and through the tunnel*. Now, Stanley is unaware of the tunnel; but it is quite likely that Jack knows of it.

I'd also like to point out that (Foolamancer aside for a moment), Stanley's decision to break through looks, at least from what we know at the moment, to be exactly the right choice; and he made it instantly, which was also extremely important given how little time he had.

Spot-on; let me just add that it is also the correct decision in view of the above. The shortest way to GK leads over enemy corpses.
_______________
* I am reposting the ASCII map here, for convenience. For a detailed explanation, see this post.

 
     ^^^^^
    ^^^^^^^                  Legend:
   ^^     ^^             
  ==  FAQ  --   GK           ^^ impassable mountains
   ^^     ^^                 == mountain pass
    ^^^^^^^                  -- tunnel
     ^^^^^

[shamelessmerc]

I wouldn't make much of an extra unit in one of these images where no detail is present. The only important thing is that the transylvitians are sort of equally split between the two groups.

I still remember making some simple assumptions when Parson inspected his troops and estimating GK had between 10,000 e 30,000 units.

Yeah, I don't make much of it either, but some people really, really do. They build these elegant hypothesies (spelling?) on a misinterpreted image and then bang on about them when all along the bottom card is missing from their ivory tower.

mixed metaphor again, that one is a bit of a reach, not one of my best

[Richbin]

I'd like to note that from Stanley's current position, the shortest route to GK goes over FAQ and through the tunnel*. Now, Stanley is unaware of the tunnel; but it is quite likely that Jack knows of it.



Spot-on; let me just add that it is also the correct decision in view of the above. The shortest way to GK leads over enemy corpses.
_______________
* I am reposting the ASCII map here, for convenience. For a detailed explanation, see this post.

 
     ^^^^^
    ^^^^^^^                  Legend:
   ^^     ^^             
  ==  FAQ  --   GK           ^^ impassable mountains
   ^^     ^^                 == mountain pass
    ^^^^^^^                  -- tunnel
     ^^^^^

Thank you for the map posting.
Although I had always surmised there might be tunnel access, I never figured that the pass was on the opposite side from GK.
This would explain the lengthy travel time.
Thank you for that.

However, I suspect that there are other passes besides only one in the area, and that those were used instead

[ReccaSquirrel]

WARNING: faulty assumption underpining an incorrect conclusion.

People haven't forgotten, they are just not using the same assumptions as you are.

By 'assumption' I mean like in engineering ie. Pi=3.14, g=9.81m/s/s

your assumption is that the stack behind Stanley couldn't remain hidden without a veil, I disagree as do some others on this thread.

Okay so its:
1) Ansom Can't Veil Units
2) Stanley Didn't See The Units
3) Units Are Behind Stanley That Weren't Before
.: Either the units "hid" by some unknown game mechanic or they are illusions

I'm fine with that.

That said, if there were a way to hide units without veiling, I wonder why Parson didn't use that method with the dwagons. Okay, I find it it unlikely for a couple of reasons. But I'm not ruling it out either. It would seem that if terrain got a cover bonus, we would have seen it in use with the Gobwins or SOMETHING else by now. But again, this could all be wrong.

[ReccaSquirrel]

We know they cannot move from one hex to another, but we also know (or at least strongly suspect) that they can move around within their current hex freely.

I'm wondering if when you enter a hex that has a defending enemy or an ambusing army, if it automatically gives them the ability to "relay" their defenses. But we don't know if that's possible, if they are in one hex right now, or really anything.

[DariusAPB]

Speculation: Parson didn't try a method of hiding other than veiling because at the time he didn't know about it, if he even does now. When he pulled the tricks with the dragons he was going only off what he knew.(Quite little).

It is possible that units have certain states, for example "take a turn to dig in" or "take a turn to hide" which can be activated only in certain terrain. It's also entirely possibly that i'm talking out of my backside, personally I still want to know what happens when a factions supreme commander/king/overlord is captured. For what it's worth, I think that the units ahead and behind stanley are genuine. This said, I can't see how the ones behind him can be genuine without illusion or other state effects having previously concealed them.

In terms of battle, i believe it's a warlord + eight bats / warlord + small number of peeps per stack? I would think that a warlord + three knights + dragons can punch through any one of those, and then punch through perhaps another two. Thus I believe Stanny boy will push through, but he may have problems after.

My prediction therefore is this: Stanny boy will push through, just possibly even getting to FAQ and come Jetstones turn Blondie, Blondie and Vinny will want to persue him and finish the job. However circumstances at GK will cause Ansom to request their air support for numerous reasons (ease of taking the walls, risk of Charlies Archons) distracting them from their mission.

Alternately, after pushing through, Jack will veil Stanny boy.
Alternately Stanny boy will be captured, not croaked.

Ah who am I kidding, it's impossible to predict this... I wonder of there will be a spinoff featuring some survivors of an air crash stuck on a mysterious island...

[Richbin]

Okay so its:
1) Ansom Can't Veil Units
2) Stanley Didn't See The Units
3) Units Are Behind Stanley That Weren't Before
.: Either the units "hid" by some unknown game mechanic or they are illusions

I'm fine with that.

That said, if there were a way to hide units without veiling, I wonder why Parson didn't use that method with the dwagons. Okay, I find it it unlikely for a couple of reasons. But I'm not ruling it out either. It would seem that if terrain got a cover bonus, we would have seen it in use with the Gobwins or SOMETHING else by now. But again, this could all be wrong.

We know Ansom cannot veil units, but we do not know if Vampires cannt veil themselves and their bats, or at least use 'stealth'.
I suspect they can be sneaky, and require perception checks to be made at negatives to notice them. BUT we do not know that forsooth.

There have been 'ambush' rules used before - by Sizemore's Golems.
When encountering a scout stack (presumably on Scout move), they are able to move by 'splorching' under falling stones set up by marbits, and 'Washing-ing' away boulders, all while the marbits are trying frantically to dig their way away, on THEIR turn.

Therefore, the troups 'behind' Stanley, would have had to have been hiding in the clouds (unlikely, as then the passes then become meaningless), have the ability to 'stealth' as scouting vampires might, or flew up from the ground while hiding, waiting for the dwagons to pass overhead.

[ReccaSquirrel]

We know Ansom cannot veil units, but we do not know if Vampires cannt veil themselves and their bats, or at least use 'stealth'.
I suspect they can be sneaky, and require perception checks to be made at negatives to notice them. BUT we do not know that forsooth.

There have been 'ambush' rules used before - by Sizemore's Golems.
When encountering a scout stack (presumably on Scout move), they are able to move by 'splorching' under falling stones set up by marbits, and 'Washing-ing' away boulders, all while the marbits are trying frantically to dig their way away, on THEIR turn.

Therefore, the troups 'behind' Stanley, would have had to have been hiding in the clouds (unlikely, as then the passes then become meaningless), have the ability to 'stealth' as scouting vampires might, or flew up from the ground while hiding, waiting for the dwagons to pass overhead.

That would make some sense there. Jackie and the non-vampire units were all in the group ahead of Stanley, not behind him. From what we can tell, the group behind Stanley was nothing but bats and vampires.

[Richbin]

I'm wondering if when you enter a hex that has a defending enemy or an ambusing army, if it automatically gives them the ability to "relay" their defenses. But we don't know if that's possible, if they are in one hex right now, or really anything.

I beleive there was a mention somewhere that you could not see into adjacent hexes - you ghad to enter the hex to see the unit, which is why everyone is assuming that they are all in the same hex now

[Freederick]

However, I suspect that there are other passes besides only one in the area, and that those were used instead

Actually, Vinny says emphatically in Erf 99, panel 7 that there is only one pass. On the other hand, Jillian refers to "air and tunnel access" so we know there is a tunnel. Still, assuming that Jillian's "shortcut" is a hidden pass rather than a tunnel does not substantially alter the argument (although Occam might have objected--why presume an unconfirmed pass, when the confirmed tunnel will suffice?)

[shamelessmerc]

That said, if there were a way to hide units without veiling, I wonder why Parson didn't use that method with the dwagons.

The dragons in the donut were not under warlord control to stop them auto-attacking. If they had been MAYBE they would have gone undetected by the bats if the forest was thick enough.

Several simple mechanics have been suggested of ways the vamps could use the terrain to hide.

I just think it is a very poor war sim that does not take teraain into account as camoflage.

[CaptC]

I have played several very enjoyable and realistic aerial battles games, with very few terrain rules or ambush scenarios.

[shamelessmerc]

I have played several very enjoyable and realistic aerial battles games, with very few terrain rules or ambush scenarios.

I said 'war' not 'aerial' and for the entire history of 'earthworld' air combat terrain and ambush have been central, not peripheral, to the mechanics of engagment.

I don't doubt enjoyable, and I don't doubt the portions that were modeled were realistic, but absence of terrain and observational limitation is the preserve of space warfare.

[CaptC]

I said 'war' not 'aerial' and for the entire history of 'earthworld' air combat terrain and ambush have been central, not peripheral, to the mechanics of engagment.

I don't doubt enjoyable, and I don't doubt the portions that were modeled were realistic, but absence of terrain and observational limitation is the preserve of space warfare.

And I've played many a space game with lots of terrain via planets, stars and Hollywood terrain like asteroid belts, space stations and radioactive clouds of mysterious energy.

*MY* point was that when you paint with a very broad brush, you miss the corners.

[tahu88810]

I have an observation:
Jack is actually sane, sort of. The things hes saying could possibly foreshadow something...or even be a hint.
Hes just demonstrated that he CAN in fact communicate, and that he knows whats going on...for the most part. Perhaps he will turn out to be more useful than he looks?

[LogicsFate]

Registered to say this.

Spoiler

Show

Captured units have a notoriously low loyalty.

If the link up got around this... and now that's gone...

[Vreejack]

Has anyone pointed this out already? I got tired of reading the same silly argument over and over so I skipped ahead, but all those units in panels ten and eleven are in the same hex, or else they would be too far away to see. It looks like all the Transylvito units are spread about before and after Stanley, iow, Stanley is in the middle of the ambush. Whether that ambush is real or an illusion is another matter, but in either case it may be that Jack is about to lead his master home. Or not.

[dr pepper]

New idea:

Jack only needs to use a minor spell, Projected Image. Most of the TV units will swarm where they think Stanley is, so not enough hits to croak him. Stanley and Jack fly out of the ambush hex, followed by the others. They reach FAQ and dig in. Meanwhile, Webinar goes 404 and the marbits get reduced to smores.

Jetstone's turn. Something happens, at best Ansom doesn't lose much more.

Charley's turn. Charley agrees to a nonagression pact in return for more math options.

TV's turn. Ansom's out of it, continue on our own? Don says Fugeddaboutit.

GK's turn. Wanda appointed governor of New FAQ. Parson's new orders: figure out where the other Arkentools are. Stanley and KISS are off on his quest.

End Chapter.

Revise for printing.

Printed comic goes #1 on NYT list.

Movie tops box office for 18 weeks.

As the fans wait breathlessly for Chapter 2, the authors announce their intention to take some time off. Two years later they are found dead in their chateau on St. Kitts, under a pile of Johnny Walker bottles, Wii controlers, and naked women.

Every webcomic on the planet goes black for a week as a tribute.

The price of memorabilia skyrockets. Ebay is forced to set up a separate category.

A dozen grad students dedicate their theses to deconstructing Erf. At least 3 call it "trite and derivative".

[shamelessmerc]

Has anyone pointed this out already? I got tired of reading the same silly argument over and over so I skipped ahead, but all those units in panels ten and eleven are in the same hex, or else they would be too far away to see. It looks like all the Transylvito units are spread about before and after Stanley, iow, Stanley is in the middle of the ambush. Whether that ambush is real or an illusion is another matter, but in either case it may be that Jack is about to lead his master home. Or not.

In a way it is kind of depressing to see 7 pages of empassioned debate summed up in a single paragraph :-)

Yep, you've covered it, all this is just a three way snipe shoot between the 'It's an illusion!' camp, the 'It's not necessarily an illusion!' camp, and the 'Both camps are obssesive idots!' camp.

[shamelessmerc]

[QUOTE=CaptC;4950396
*MY* point was that when you paint with a very broad brush, you miss the corners.[/QUOTE]

Sorry, I don't understand. Please explain.

my *original* point was that the TV units did not neccesarily need veiling to spring an ambush, and that people should stop asserting that they did.

[shamelessmerc]

I have played several very enjoyable and realistic

Worked out what you were getting at...

You tied the words enjoyable and realistic together in that sentence.

I love CnC for example: it's not realistic but it is great fun. It is however a 'poor' war sim because things do not behave in a realistic way.

In the context of the original argument I was making, I felt people were placing unrealistic constraints on Erfworld not from canon, but because THEY could not concieve of a more imaginative solution.

[CaptC]

Worked out what you were getting at...

You tied the words enjoyable and realistic together in that sentence.

I love CnC for example: it's not realistic but it is great fun. It is however a 'poor' war sim because things do not behave in a realistic way.

In the context of the original argument I was making, I felt people were placing unrealistic constraints on Erfworld not from canon, but because THEY could not concieve of a more imaginative solution.

There ya go! :)

I'm don't think Erfworld qualifies as a realistic war sim, by any definition. So I wouldn't appeal to the authority of what a realistic war sim would do. (One of the most feared weapons in the game is apparently a squeaky kid's toy that makes pigeons. I think I rest my case right there.)