Flames of War: Diplomacy

[thewamp]

I'm very sorry about the delay, I was flying to LA today and once I got there, partying commenced and... well anyway, I'm back at a computer.

Builds!
just look at the map

[Shular]

Out of curiosity, I notice in the last season that Germany had two orders for Gas...one for Bre and one for Par. Did you adjudicate those orders based on the most recent received?

[thewamp]

Out of curiosity, I notice in the last season that Germany had two orders for Gas...one for Bre and one for Par. Did you adjudicate those orders based on the most recent received?

Oops! I actually didn't even notice... jdip would have adjudicated the second one to come in, but properly, I probably should have made it a hold order. Anyway, if people have a problem with what happened (since I did make a mistake there, though it would have been better if it was caught before builds happened), let me know. I'm not sure what the proper thing to do here is. Rules gurus? Is there anything in there?

[Moody the Wise]

Ah. Well, I can give you my perspective on it, which is this: I had no idea that first order was still there. I'm usually meticulous about checking my orders, making sure they're grammatically correct and there are no duplicates. I can say that the Gas-Par order is the one I meant - Gas-Bre was a relic of an older set of orders that included support to Brest from the English Channel.

If the judgment of my peers is that the unit should hold, I'll accept that with dignity. However, I'd rather that not be the case.

[Shular]

Well, fortunately it ends up not making a difference (though had the Gas - Bre order held I would have kept both and Gas would have had to disband), as the unit holding in Gas would have had the option to retreat to Par.

Going forward, though, you'll want to have a set rule for these situations. Use the order that comes last (as the software does) or the unit holds. Either is acceptable to me.

[thewamp]

Well, fortunately it ends up not making a difference (though had the Gas - Bre order held I would have kept both and Gas would have had to disband), as the unit holding in Gas would have had the option to retreat to Par.

Going forward, though, you'll want to have a set rule for these situations. Use the order that comes last (as the software does) or the unit holds. Either is acceptable to me.

Honestly, I just didn't notice the first one. It was a mistake. But, because apparently I'm susceptible to this mistake, I'm going to, from here on out, use the last order (on a line by line basis) for each army/fleet.

[thewamp]

And I gave no warning.
This is your "you are late" warning
Turn it in within 24 hours

Sorry to those who turned their orders in on time. Internet will remain flaky until the 18th and then get better.

[thewamp]

Alright, apologies for the delay... here we are:
Spring 1909


France - Shular
A Gas - Bur
A Mar S A Gas - Bur
A Ven S A Tyr H
F MAO S Par - Bre
F Spa - Gas
F Wes S F MAO H

Germany - Moody the Wise
A Mos-Sev
A Ber-Sil
A Boh-Tyr
A Mun S A Boh-Tyr
A Vie-Gal
A War S A Vie-Gal
F Kie-Hol
F Den-Nth
A Bel-Bur
A Par S A Bel-Bur
A Lvp-Pic
F Iri C A Lvp-Pic
F Eng C A Lvp-Pic
A Edi-Lvp

Italy - Shishnarfne
F Naf S F Wes-MaO
F Tys-GoL

Turkey - Maldiem
A Tyr - Boh
A Tri - Vie
A Bud Supports A Tri - Vie
A Rum - Gal
A Sev - Ukr
A Con - Sev
F Bla Convoys A Con - Sev
A Ser - Tri
F Gre - Alb
F Aeg - Gre

Retreats!
Turkey A tyr may disband or retreat to pie

Retreat due ASAP
Fall 1909 Orders due Monday at 2300

[Maldiem]

I'll take the retreat.

[thewamp]

This is your 11 Hour Warning

[Moody the Wise]

I was just drawing up my orders, and I noticed that by my count I have 16 SCs and 14 units. I couldn't have built more anyway last season, I just want to point out ahead of time that I have two builds in reserve, not one. Unless someone can correct my counting, that is.

[thewamp]

I was just drawing up my orders, and I noticed that by my count I have 16 SCs and 14 units. I couldn't have built more anyway last season, I just want to point out ahead of time that I have two builds in reserve, not one. Unless someone can correct my counting, that is.

As I'm using jdip to count, I don't think you have to worry about inaccurate counting, though it's always good to double check.

[thewamp]

Fall 1909


France - Shular
F MAO H
F Spa S F MAO H
F Wes S F MAO
A Gas - Bur
A Mar S A Gas - Bur
A Ven S Pie - Tyr

Germany - Moody the Wise
A Mos S A Gal-Ukr
A Gal-Ukr
A War-Lvn
A Sil-War
A Tyr-Boh
A Bel S A Mun-Bur
A Pic S A Mun-Bur
A Mun-Bur
F Nth-Nwg
F Hol-Nth
A Lvp-Bre
F Iri C A Lvp-Bre
F Eng C A Lvp-Bre
A Par S A Lvp-Bre

Italy - Shishnarfne
F Naf S F MaO
F Lyo S mar

Turkey - Maldiem
A Pie - Tyr
A Tri Supports A Pie - Tyr
A Vie - Boh
F Alb - Adr
F Gre - Alb
A Ukr - Gal
A Bud Supports A Ukr - Gal
A Rum Supports A Ukr - Gal
F Bla - Sev
A Con - Ank

Retreats!
German A tyr may disband or retreat to mun
German A gal may disband or retreat to sil

Adjustment - assuming retreats are taken
France: Remove 1
Germany: Build 2
Turkey: Build 1

Retreats due ASAP
Builds due Wednesday at 2300
Spring 1910 Orders due Friday at 2300

[Shular]

Retreats!
German A mun may disband or retreat to tyr

I think that may be backward...A Tyr may retreat to Mun.

[Moody the Wise]

First, I'll take both retreats - A Tyr-Mun and A Gal-Sil.

Second, I smell a stalemate. It should be easy to see how it forms in the West; while perhaps not quite so painfully obvious, trust me, it's there in the East too.

Are we all willing to call this game a 16-11-5-2 draw? Unless you three want to quibble amongst yourselves, nothing is going to change that breakdown. We'd have to call this strictly a draw - I don't want to hear any talk of an "allied victory." It would be impossible for one of you to reach 18 supply centers without the stalemate breaking in my favor, so the notion of an allied victory is about as absurd as Russia, Turkey, Austria, and Italy calling a four-way allied victory in Spring 1901, just because they hold a majority of the SCs. However, neither would I seek to claim victory.

[Shular]

I know I'm willing...indeed, that was my goal once you attacked me.

So my vote is to call it a 4-way draw.

[Moody the Wise]

Yes, and congratulations for accomplishing that, Shular et al.

Who knows, I might have pulled it off if I had been crazier early on, but then again, there's an equal or greater chance that I'd just be dead now if I hadn't been so methodical in my moves.

All in all, a result I can live with. I thought this was an excellent game. Definitely the best Diplomacy I've played in a while.

Of course, if Italy feels like throwing me a bone here and selling France down the river ...

Anyway, I look forward to the EoGs, although we still have to hear from Maldiem that he doesn't want to try to absorb you and Italy, and from Italy that he doesn't want to hand me the game, so I won't start revealing my sinister inner workings just yet.

[thewamp]

Yes, and congratulations for accomplishing that, Shular et al.

Who knows, I might have pulled it off if I had been crazier early on, but then again, there's an equal or greater chance that I'd just be dead now if I hadn't been so methodical in my moves.

All in all, a result I can live with. I thought this was an excellent game. Definitely the best Diplomacy I've played in a while.

Of course, if Italy feels like throwing me a bone here and selling France down the river ...

Anyway, I look forward to the EoGs, although we still have to hear from Maldiem that he doesn't want to try to absorb you and Italy, and from Italy that he doesn't want to hand me the game, so I won't start revealing my sinister inner workings just yet.

Before the end of the game is formally called, I'd like to have a consensus from all four of the remaining survivors.

[Shishnarfne]

I won't argue with the draw.

That means that it's up to Maldiem.

[thewamp]

In case people weren't clear, I'd like to extend orders until Maldiem responds.

[Moody the Wise]

He admitted to the draw in conversation with me the other day ... I wonder why he hasn't posted that here yet. Well, in case anyone is wondering, A Kie, A Ber.

[Shular]

I'd sent in my disband order a couple days ago... A Gas

[Maldiem]

Yeah, its definitely a draw. Sorry I was MIA, the forums were spotty and I was busy.

[thewamp]

War Ends in Draw!!!
Germany, France, Turkey and Italy end the game in a 4-way draw.

Well, we've reached the end. I'd like to congratulate you all. It was an interesting game to watch.

Anyway, write End of Game reports. For this one, you all should actually be able to remember ;)

[Vexen]

This game was a comedy of Errors for me. I was extra busy at the time it started and then the holidays were a bit much for me. I probably shouldn't have played, sorry if I ruined the game for anyone by being slightly better than neutral country. It is amazing that I only NMR once in this game, and then I sincerely thought that I had posted orders.

Anyway here is my point of view from the game. I thought about trying something new for this game. So I thought about trying to go all out after Italy at the start of the game. However, from the start of the game Turkey ignored all my letters. Russia was talking crazy about having me team up with him against Turkey and attacking England at the same time. So first season I got indecisive. I kept bouncing back and forth between an all out attack on Italy, or standard starting moves. In the end i mixed my order sets on accident and did a mix of the two succeding at neither.

After the first year of getting nowhere, I tried to ally with Italy so I could deal with Turkey. This didn't work well, as Italy did not coordinate moves well. He kept bouncing with me in suicidal manners. Keeping us both from expanding.

Then came the holidays and I was barely able to get online enough to send in moves. And those were poorly thought out and definitely uncoordinated.

[Shular]

EOG: France
This was an odd game for me. I was somewhat disappointed by the low levels of communications that occured with most of the players, the primary exception being Moody.

At the start I wasn't sure who I would ally with. My preference, tactically, was Germany, since a strong England poses more of a threat. However, supported units in Bre and MAO would be sufficient to keep a line with England.

Then an interesting thing happened. Both England (Viggo) AND Germany asked me to open with the same moves: Bre - Pic, Par - Bur. This, of course, kind of freaked me out. Should England and Germany be working together, they could easily reduce me to one build (none if Italy chose to move against me).

However, Italy assured me he had no interest in attacking me, since he wanted to go after Austria, so I took the chance, and things went smoothly. At this point, because they'd both wanted me to make the moves, I hadn't had to decide who I would be attacking.

The fall, however, was the decision time. England wanted me to attack Germany, and Germany wanted me to move my fleet into the English channel, and in exchange he offered to support me into Belgium. This was the crucial point for me. Two things strongly influenced my decision to work with Germany.

First, I was not pleased with the brevity of Viggo's messages. He did not go into detail discussing his strategies, and most of his messages consisted of one or two sentences. The prospect of this over the course of a full game was not appealing. On the other hand, Moody's messages were well-written, and discussed strategy and tactics in a manner similar to how I think. In other words, it was just more fun corresponding with Moody.

The second issue was that Viggo insisted on me supporting him into Belgium, arguing that I could take Munich and still get two builds. I pointed out that, if Moody moved back to Mun, I'd only get one build, but he didn't care. While the correspondance styles were important, this was the deal breaker. Had he assured me that he would support himself into Norway, then I would have ordered Pic - Bel, and Bur - Mun, and he would have had a solid ally to his south. As it was, he supported himself into Norway anyway (even though I'd lied and agreed to support him into Bel...heck, if I'm going to war with him, I may as well as try to trick him into not getting a build), so it turns out he was just playing me. I still don't see the point though.

From that point forward, it was just a matter of Moody and I taking out England while hoping that nobody would grow too strong in the east. In that we were completely successful. Moody's offensive on Russia prevented Meklor from gaining momentum and dominating in the south, allowing Turkey and Austria to drive back Italy.

With the fall of England, I swung my forces around to the Med with the intention of moving against Italy, and that's where I made my (nearly) fatal error. In seeing the danger of Turkey busting fleets into the Ion, I chose to try to work with the new Italy. Unfortunately, Italy's first set of orders were miswritten (supporting Ion - Tys instead of Tys - Ion). At this point, Moody strongly urged me to attack Italy. I chose not to, mainly because Turkey and Austria would have been in positions to strongly benefit from a collapsing Italy. Had I chosen to attack Italy, the builds I would have gotten would, I believe, have been sufficient to dissuade Germany from attacking me. But I didn't, so Moody did.

Fortunately, I analyzed the map, and determined that, should we work together, we could force the draw. Maldiem was not convinced that we could succeed but, not seeing any better alternative, agreed to try. Shishnarfe, of course, was quite game. Only Vexen didn't respond to my message for teamwork. So, not knowing what his plans were, I decided it would be best to support Turkey against Austria to get him out of the game. After that, it was not difficult to set up the stalemate.

With school set to resume soon, I knew I was getting to the point where I wouldn't have much time to play, and so I chose to end it there. It did occur to me that we could continue the game were I to offer to Moody that, if he withdrew from France and allowed me to get Bre, Par, and Bel back, then I would agree to resume our offensive against Italy and Turkey.

I suspect he might have accepted, since he would still have a good shot at the win. However, after he attacked me we stopped corresponding (my bad, I was too busy pushing for the draw), and, honestly, I didn't feel like prolonging the game.

The good: The alliance with Moody worked well from the beginning until mid-game. We came up with some fun strategies (I especially liked him convoying my army into England). I wasn't overly upset at the stab, mainly because I was somewhat expecting it. I WAS disappointed, though, because I thought there was still so much more we could do. Of course, more builds would have allowed me to reinforce my homeland, so it made sense to move while I was vulnerable.

The bad: The low levels of communications with the other players. Meklor wasn't too bad...I'd hoped to better work out a deal to go after Germany once England was out, but Germany attacked Russia before I was expecting it, and I found myself out of position to try to take advantage of it (at least, without letting England off the hood). Once Shishnarfe took over Italy we had some okay correspondance, but it was mostly just confirming orders. Maldiem and I talked little, except at the end where we coordinated moves to deal with Moody.

The ugly: The Italian connundrum. We hardly talk, then I get ready to attack him and a new player takes over. I agree to work with him and his orders mess me up. I'm unsure of his motivations, but then he supports me back. We work together, then he doesn't respond. Suspecting Germany's about to attack me, I attack him to get some necessary centres. Then he agrees to work with me to hold off Germany. I don't think I've ever flip-flopped so much in my dealings with another country, but I guess it's fortunate I didn't end up taking him out...he proved necessary for the draw.

Thanks, thewump, for running this game. While the delays in getting the maps up would sometimes get to me, I appreciated the effort and commitment you made to the game. It was fun, and definitely a learning experience for me.

[Shishnarfne]

Okay, so I was trying to fill in for a previous player partway through, with a strong France knocking on my doorstep.

I figured, if France had any shot at a solo victory, the road went either through me in Italy, or by stabbing Germany hard. Or both.

So I decided my best bet was to ride a dangerous road of trying to "assist" France sufficiently that he decided not to take me out, while keeping his progress slow enough that he felt obliged to stab Germany. That didn't work out nearly as well as I'd hoped.

The "misorder" was intentional. I was trying to use Turkey to help prop me up against France, so that I could try to live a dangerous road on the fence until the F-G alliance broke up.

My NMR didn't help much. My apologies. Fortunately for me, that was about the time that Germany stabbed France, which led to France calling for my assistance in holding the Med. Which, of course, I was more than happy to provide.

I'd say, given my initial situation, a piece of a draw wasn't a bad result. France couldn't've won without stabbing me, so I had to try to convince Shular I was worth more alive than dead, while simultaneously trying to convince him that his road to victory had to run through Germany... By giving him few advances in the Med. A longshot, but I didn't think I was going to find many short odds.

Actually, I wasn't communicating sufficiently with anyone except France to keep things running smoothly... It just seemed hard to jump in and try to take over.

Thanks for letting me stand in for a few years!

[Moody the Wise]

Heh, I suppose it's time I reflected on this game. My EoG could practically just be a PM to Shular, as most of my interaction in this game was with him.

I started off the game with a few preconceptions. I knew Shular had soloed a game on the forums a while back, although I had never played with or "met" him. I knew viggo very well through multiple games we've played together, although I would agree with everything Shular said about his styles of play and diplomacy. I assumed I could talk viggo around to pretty much anything, which can be a useful asset. On the other hand, our alliance would have been anything but subtle, and would have probably set us up as a target. The deciding factor, though, was that I thought it would just be more fun to play the challenge with Shular. Shular knew I knew viggo, and I had to spend a lot of effort trying to convince him that I wasn't going to ally with viggo. Reading Shular's EoG, I guess I never really convinced him; viggo did.

From my perspective, I had a three-way alliance with France and Russia against England. Again, from my perspective, Russia was the third wheel there. You never want to be the second person invited into a three-way alliance, and at least from where I stood, Russia was that person. Russia was also someone I didn't want to work long-term with at all, and was only really useful as a temporary ally against England. Once England was taken care of - by which I mean not really a threat anymore, although it would be a while before we took all his centers - I knew I needed another target. I went after Russia, because I knew I needed a fleet in the long run, and I needed Russia to not have a Northern fleet. C'est la vie. I don't think I consulted Shular about this beforehand; you know how they say that it's easier to ask forgiveness than to ask permission? Yeah. Well, they do.

After Russia was dealt with, I had another choice to make. It was a very difficult choice, and I went back and forth on it quite a few times. In the end, I decided I'd stab France hard, briefly align with and then stab Turkey, and make my run for the solo. I knew I wouldn't have a better opportunity to catch France off balance, and that Turkey didn't really have the manpower to cause me serious trouble in the East.

The rest is history, really. I played a mostly offensive defense with Turkey, which was really just an attempt to buy me time to deal with France, where I threw most of my strength. I think the tactics employed were pretty solid, and a lot of fun to come up with for the most part. If I had focused more on the East, tried to achieve deeper penetration of Turkey's lines, or been more aggressive with France, who knows what could have happened. I think that this result is just about the best I could have achieved, though, and I'm pleased with the outcome.

Shish, I hardly knew ya. If you had behaved differently, I probably would have succeeded in my solo attempt, but eh, I guess you did what you had to do.

Meklor, if you're still around, sorry man, I just couldn't let you have those fleets.

Vexen, I'm not sure we exchanged more than 10 words the whole game.

Viggo, sorry for cornering you the way I did, but these things happen.

Maldiem, I would have loved to have worked with you had we been closer geographically, but by the time we met, the book was pretty much written.

And Shular ... I really had a lot of fun working with you this game, and then later against you. I hope that if we ever find ourselves in another game together, your experience with me in this one won't color me in an unfavorable light.

And most of all, thewamp, many, many thanks. You are the best GM I've ever seen on these boards, and your continued service to this community is amazing.

If anyone has any questions about the game, I'll do my best to answer them.

[Shular]

Nobody else has an eog? This is kind of what I was getting at in mine. There seemed to be a genral malaise in this game, where people played, but didn't seem really into it.