amusing Vow of Peace idea

[Godna]

If i recall correctly with vow of peace allows you to have any manufactored weapon that strikes roll a DC or be shattered at the cost of being inable to deal leathal damage so i came up with an amusing character concept. You have a character that is basically hulk hogan that goes around beating the tar out of people with nonlethal damage and breaking weapons on his chest and i want to know if there are any rules that such a character would be breaking and if not how to optimize the weapon breaking chance.

[Mephit]

No, that's perfectly legal. Problems though:

- You can't kill things, nor let your party do it for you. This could make you more unloved than the paladin. (At least he lets you kill the really evil ones)

- Some things are simply immune to nonlethal damage.

It's not gamebreaking at all. After all, there are spells, arrows, etc to take you down.

Oh, and don't forget: Anyone who nears you is affected by the calm emotions spell. Max out the DC, let them get close, watch them get their guard down...And then bear the snot out of them.

[Glimbur]

bear the snot out of them.

You'll need some levels in Druid or Primeval or some such.

[Godna]

I don't think i would have to much of a problem with that stuff. the not letting my party kill stuff for me isn't a problem since as long as they arent helpless or defenseless i don't have a problem and they wont hate me as long as they can still rob the unconscious baddies blind. Anyway since we have the legality confirmed how can i max the chance that weapons will break on contact?


Imaging the incharacter fun

Vow taker:Who said Im violent I'll ****ing kill you
Team mate: Actually you cant kill me what with your Vows
Vow taker: Than i'll beat the bloody hell outta ya

[Animefunkmaster]

Vow of Peace= Wet Blanket + lots of hassle with your party.

[kamikasei]

I don't think i would have to much of a problem with that stuff. the not letting my party kill stuff for me isn't a problem since as long as they arent helpless or defenseless i don't have a problem and they wont hate me as long as they can still rob the unconscious baddies blind.

I'm not quite sure what you mean here but if you're saying that you're okay with the party killing enemies so long as those enemies aren't helpless at the time, It Doesn't Work That Way. The Vows are supposed to be powerful bonuses balanced out by the strict requirements they place on your character. I'm AFB and can't check the exact wording, but if it says you can't kill or let your party kill then you can't weasel out of or around that by arguing that it's okay so long as the bad guy's fighting back - you've taken a sacred vow of such potency that the gods themselves give you blessings to aid its furtherance, it doesn't really allow for legalism or letter-not-spirit nonsense. Such is basically getting the benefit without the cost.

- Some things are simply immune to nonlethal damage.

For most such things, you can deal lethal damage, though, right? I mean, Vow of Peace will still let you beat up a construct or zombie? Not sure how it interacts with intelligent undead and the like, though.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Ability Focus, for one. Increase the DC by two.

For build, might I suggest making a Neandrathal Paladin with the feat that lets you convert smite damage into nonlethal damage? Then take, a sugliin, the Sugliin Mastery feat, and add the Merciful enchantment. Deal 2d8+1d6 nonlethal damage per round.

EDIT: That would actually be a pretty fun character to play. I would probably restrict it to Vow of Nonviolence, though, so it's less of a hassle on the party.

[Person_Man]

It's a great concept. But it basically only works if everyone in the party takes Vow of Peace, because everyone else in the party is basically held to your standard of non-lethalness.

If your DM is nice, they'll let you take the Vow, play a dedicated healer/protector or something similar that never attacks, and have you hand wave the "my party must be pusses" away. "I'm a pacifist, but I can't let my friends die in their pursuit of destruction against the Ultimate Evil..." That way you get to play what you want, focus on Skills and roleplaying and protection, and not be a Lawful Stupid "you have to do this because it's what my character would do" player.

[Mr.Bookworm]

It's a great concept. But it basically only works if everyone in the party takes Vow of Peace, because everyone else in the party is basically held to your standard of non-lethalness.

If your DM is nice, they'll let you take the Vow, play a dedicated healer/protector or something similar that never attacks, and have you hand wave the "my party must be pusses" away. "I'm a pacifist, but I can't let my friends die in their pursuit of destruction against the Ultimate Evil..." That way you get to play what you want, focus on Skills and roleplaying and protection, and not be a Lawful Stupid "you have to do this because it's what my character would do" player.

Hence why in my build you stick to Vow of Nonviolence.

Much less restrictive. I mean, you can't let your comrades execute enemies, but I doubt most Good parties are going to have a problem with that.

[jcsw]

This build requires some DM intervention in that Justicar's ability to deal strength damage is intended to keep the target alive...

(actually the build is better off without the vow anyway...)

Ranger of Mystra 6/Justicar 2/Arcane Duelist 10/Kensai 2

Arcane Duelist Located Here.
Rangers of Mystra have access to the Sword of the Arcane order feat (Champions of Valor) which lets them cast arcane spells.

At level 20, your attack routine is
Main: +13/+8/+3
Off: +11/+6

With both Haste and Arcane Duelist's "Flurry", it becomes
Main: +12/+12/+12/+7/+2
Off: +10/+5

Both Kensai and Arcane Duelist can provide an enchantment bonus to your weapon, totalling a +6. Lets assume you have another +4 enchantment bonus.
Assuming your dex (finesse) score has reached epic levels of +12
And with an arcane duelist, you actually get a net bonus for using oversized weapons. Since the nonlethal damage is actually less valuable than the strength damage, lets subtract the entire damage potential except 1 of a colossal +10 longsword. (6d6+10) for a +45 to hit and a -8 for size.

Our attack bonuses suddenly become
Main: +71/+71/+71/+66/+61
Off: +69/+64

And while you're using arcane duelist's flurry, you create a minimum of four clones and a maximum of seven, who have the same attack routine as you.
Assuming minimum clones, and assuming all attacks hit, you deal 28 strength damage.

[Mystral]

Actually, where does it say that your party members have to adhere to the same vow as you do? Because of the vow of nonviolence, they are forbidden to kill helpless or subdued foes and get a moral penality if they do so. You even break your vow if you let them kill a helpless foe.

But there isn't anything like that in the "vow of peace" feat.

[overduegalaxy]

There's always the Reaping Mauler PrC from CWar. While it's not very good, it does fit the fluff well here.

[Aergoth]

Mystral, you can't let others be killed. That means that you in fact can't let your party members kill it for you, because it breaks the oath.

Oathbreaker [General]
Wow. You broke a sacred promise. To a god. What kind of stupid are you?
Effect: You take a -2 punishment bonus for breaking your oath.
Anyone with a claim on your oath can command you do do anything. Without payment other than releasing you from your (now broken) oath.
Special: You gain this feat automatically when you break an oath.

[Aergoth]

Mystral, you can't let others be harmed. It's kind of the point. Others. That means everything. Including that goblin trying to kill you. (Just go hug it) That means that you in fact can't let your party members kill it for you, because it breaks the oath, because you let it come to harm. If I understood that correctly. Inaction is the same as evil if you're lawful good.

Oathbreaker [General]
Wow. You broke a sacred promise. To a god. What kind of stupid are you?
Effect: You take a -2 punishment penalty to everything for breaking your oath. Yes. It's all your fault.
Anyone with a claim on your oath can command you do do anything. Without payment other than releasing you from your (now broken) oath.
Special: You gain this feat automatically when you break a sacred oath.

[Frerezar]

go for Goliath monk justiciar. Defensive throw + hog tie + karmic strike (or robillars gambit) works quite nicely for subduing oponents quickly. Take improved grapple of course as well

[Mystral]

Nope. You can't let your party members kill the Goblin after they restrained and questioned them. If they killed him in the heat of battle, it might be regretfull, but nothing that will break your oath.

Note that in the description of the Vow of Peace, not one word is written about your party, and in the description of the Vow of Nonviolence, only helpless foes are mentioned. Or am I using the wrong version of the BOED?

[Person_Man]

Interestingly enough, if you hand wave the alignment restriction (or take the April Fool's Day Avenger variant), then Assassin actually makes a good Vow of Peace build. You can paralyze with Death Attack. Many of the Assassin spells are stealth or toolbox oriented. And Sneak Attack can be non-lethal damage if you use a sap or take the Merciful enhancement or feat.

[Godna]

in the two feats descriptions there isn't anything stopping them from getting away with killing the enemy as long as they aren't helpless or anything.

VOW OF PEACE [EXALTED]
You have taken a sacred vow to abstain from harming any living
creature.
Prerequisites: Sacred Vow, Vow of Nonviolence.
Benefit: This sacred vow grants significant supernatural
benefits, but its cost is high.
First, you are constantly surrounded by a calming aura to a
radius of 20 feet. Creatures within the aura must make a successful
Will save (DC 10 + one-half your character level + your
Cha modifier) or be affected as by the calm emotions spell. Creatures
who leave the aura and reenter it receive new saving
throws. A creature that makes a successful saving throw and
remains in the aura is unaffected until it leaves the aura and
reenters. The aura is a mind-affecting, supernatural compulsion.
Second, you gain a +2 natural armor bonus to your AC, a +2
deflection bonus to your AC, and a +2 exalted bonus to your AC.
This exalted bonus does not apply to touch attacks and does not
hinder incorporeal touch attacks. Brilliant energy weapons,
however, do not ignore it. It does not stack with an armor bonus.
If you also have the Vow of Poverty feat, the natural armor,
deflection, and exalted Armor Class bonuses granted by that feat
all increase by +2. If a creature strikes you with a manufactured
weapon, the weapon must immediately make a successful Fortitude
save (DC 10 + one-half your character level + your Con
modifier) or shatter against your skin, leaving you unharmed.
Finally, you gain a +4 exalted bonus on all Diplomacy checks.
Special: To fulfill your vow, you must not cause harm to any
living creature (constructs and undead are not included in this
prohibition). You may not deal real damage or ability damage to
such creatures through spells or weapons, though you may deal
nonlethal damage. You may not target them with death effects,
disintegrate, or other spells that have the immediate potential to
cause death or great harm. You also may not use nondamaging
spells to incapacitate or weaken living foes so that your allies can
kill them—if you incapacitate a foe, you must take him prisoner.
If you intentionally break your vow, you immediately and
irrevocably lose the benefit of this feat. You may not take another
feat to replace it. If you break your vow as a result of magical compulsion
or otherwise unwittingly, you lose the benefit of this feat
until you perform a suitable penance and receive an atonement
spell. (Characters who have taken a Vow of Peace are known to
drink water through a strainer in order to avoid accidentally swallowing,
and thereby causing harm to, a small insect.)

Nothing about stopping the party from killing in battle as long as the enemy aren't helpless and nonviolence is the same

[Tokiko Mima]

Interestingly enough, if you hand wave the alignment restriction (or take the April Fool's Day Avenger variant), then Assassin actually makes a good Vow of Peace build. You can paralyze with Death Attack. Many of the Assassin spells are stealth or toolbox oriented. And Sneak Attack can be non-lethal damage if you use a sap or take the Merciful enhancement or feat.

You could also become an Assassin first, then repent your evil ways and take up the epic art of Basketweaving.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

You also may not use nondamaging spells to incapacitate or weaken living foes so that your allies can kill them—if you incapacitate a foe, you must take him prisoner.

If you hinder an opponent at all and they die at the hands of your allies, you fall. Yeah.

[Mewtarthio]

Well, you could argue that anyone you attack has been "weakened," so your allies violoate your vow if they kill them. Given how nonlethal damage works, however, if the allies bring an enemy from conscious to dead in a single blow, you probably didn't make a difference. It's only a problem if your allies deal lethal damage to somebody under the effects of some sort of status ailment (eg stunned) that you've caused. If they kill someone you haven't touched, there's no argument: Your vow is safe.

[Tacoma]

Perfect example of how you simply cannot appeal to RAW and expect that to solve your problems.

This could be interpreted as "if you deal even a single point of nonlethal to an orc who is then killed, it's your fault because you weakened him,"

but also "you can punch him to the brink of unconsciousness then move on to the next opponent so someone can knock him out by causing a couple points of lethal damage, then slit his throat after the fight,"

or perhaps "you could buy a weapon with a Merciful power that's slightly nerfed such that it cannot knock him out, thus giving your friends an enemy with just one HP left before unconsciousness and a quick coup de grace."

The water strainer thing is just stupid. You couldn't receive a Cure Disease spell because it would kill the thousands of virii or bacteria in your body. And if you ever got a cold, when your immune system (which is a part of you) killed the virii you'd lose your vow benefits until you atoned.

And what about eating meat? How could you eat a quail egg knowing that you're contributing to the death of future quail as a result of your support for the quail egg market? Of more directly, how could you eat a turkey dinner knowing someone just killed that turkey for you to eat?

If a gnat in your water is worthy of breaking your vow, then all the gnats you swallow in your sleep would immediately cause you to break it. What about that time when you were walking through the forest and you stepped on a caterpillar? O NOES!

And just how far do you have to go to keep your friends from killing a goblin they captured? And why is it okay for you to sit back and do nothing while they slaughter it so long as it has weapons in its hands, but as soon as it's knocked out it's a treasured innocent who must be protected at all costs?

What about the goblin you meet hunting in the wintertime? Let's say you tie him up and leave him - but wait, he will surely die of exposure if you leave him!

Paradoxically, since starvation causes nonlethal damage, it's perfectly fine for a Vow of Peace holder to torture a goblin, breaking its fingers, tearing off fingernails, smacking him nonlethally to unconsciousness and waiting for him to wake up again, starving him for months (remember, you can't die from nonlethal damage), perhaps even putting a Necklace of Regeneration on the goblin and letting his friends cut off body parts until he's just a full-HP goblin torso and head.

Technically you can deal lethal damage without weapons or spells. You could lay him on the ground and lay a board on him, and crush him under the combined weight of your party. If you were a Monk, able to cause lethal damage unarmed, you could just punch people to death as normal. The feat describes what you can and can't do with spells and weapons, but not poisons, diseased blankets, psionic powers, Warlock Invocations, non-weapon magic items, traps, drowning, psychological torture, economic exploitation, use of animals to trample or otherwise kill, etc.

Vow of Peace is better used as a purely roleplaying mechanic. They just got on a roll with these vows and didn't know when their brainstorming results outstripped their game balancing abilities.

[Jack2000]

This thread is very relevant to my interests.
Especially the smite pally type. with the holy subdual feat.

[Godna]

You also may not use nondamaging spells to incapacitate or weaken living foes so that your allies can kill them—if you incapacitate a foe, you must take him prisoner.

What does the bold part say?

SPELLS as in magic

and it doesn't say i cant use non damaging magic to incapacitiate them. It says i cant use it to incapacitiate them so that my allies can kill them.

On top of that nothing it says stops me from waltzing over than a pile driving the victim into every table in the country side and wailing on him until it stops being funny

[Person_Man]

How far must a pacifist go?

There are several Eastern religions that believe that every living thing has a soul (or spiritual value equal to or above humans). Therefore they are strict ascetic pacifists. This often includes a vegetarian or vegan diet, non-violence in thought, word, and deed towards all living beings, walking barefoot to avoid killing tiny creatures, wearing special masks to avoid breathing in insects, and other similar practices.

Western pacifist religions get around this problem because they don't believe that non-humans have souls. Their god has granted us dominion over the earth.

Non-pacifist religions usually get around the "do not kill" rules written into their religions by writing in exceptions. Just War, non-believers forfeit their soul, its ok to kill as long as you're upholding a higher law, etc.

Its reasonable to assume that a PC can sit down with his DM and come up with a set of workable religious tenets somewhere in the vaguely Western pacifist tradition. For example, you could pledge not to kill or purposefully take part in the killing of any intelligent being that has a moral choice about its life (not "Always Evil") As you suggest, just following RAW is ridiculous in this instance. No one would fault you for killing micororganisms or insects, unless they just want to be jerks or intellectual snobs about it.

[Godna]

So can i get some assistance in maxing the chance weapons will break on me. Also where can i find the rules for how a weapon rolls its saving DC?

[Epinephrine]

You'll need some levels in Druid or Primeval or some such.

Or just Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bear. If you swing them fluff side out they probably deal subdual.

[monty]

So can i get some assistance in maxing the chance weapons will break on me. Also where can i find the rules for how a weapon rolls its saving DC?

From the SRD, under Spell Descriptions:

The spell can be cast on objects, which receive saving throws only if they are magical or if they are attended (held, worn, grasped, or the like) by a creature resisting the spell, in which case the object uses the creature’s saving throw bonus unless its own bonus is greater. (This notation does not mean that a spell can be cast only on objects. Some spells of this sort can be cast on creatures or objects.) A magic item’s saving throw bonuses are each equal to 2 + one-half the item’s caster level.

In other words, the wielder's saves for a nonmagical weapon, or either the wielder's saves or 2+CL/2 for magic items.

[Godna]

So there isnt a lot i can do to increase the chance for it to work?

[Tacoma]

This often includes a vegetarian or vegan diet ...

Yet more pro-mobile propaganda. Do plants not deserve, as living things, our peace and love? How can you eat a carrot knowing without your intervention it would have grown into a ... slightly larger and more delicious carrot? One with hopes and dreams?! A Venus Flytrap is a carnivore, and yet would you eat it? What of a Treant?

Note that the Vow of Peace says you can kill Undead and Constructs, but you cannot kill Plants. This obviously means you must adapt and learn to enjoy eating bones, ectoplasm, and formaldehyde-soaked necrotizing flesh.

But I agree with all the text you typed. I think the Vow of Peace could be more like a stricter Paladin's Oath and still be balanced.

The DM could give you a DC bonus for the weapon breakage depending on how well you've been roleplaying the Vow recently.