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2010-05-26, 08:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2008
Re: On dragons and the killing thereof
Yes it does! To use the earlier analogy, if an action makes "you have reason to think this person with black belt skills is going to become untied and then go around killing others if you simply leave them alone" then that action certainly is important when attempting to justify your own action toward said black belt person later.
Last edited by Reverent-One; 2010-05-26 at 08:37 PM.
Thanks to Elrond for the Vash avatar.
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2010-05-26, 08:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2006
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Re: On dragons and the killing thereof
No, it doesn't, because there is no proof of "going around" and killing people. Just killing people who invade your home with weapons visibly strapped to their back when your father was killed by just such people.
No one in the town or the bandit camp warned the OOTS about a mean black dragon in the area, did they? Even when they provided a map of the exact area the dragon lived! So why do we assume it was going to leave its lair and suddenly start killing innocent humans if the OOTS didn't do something?
Oh, right, because a sourcebook told us it would.Last edited by SPoD; 2010-05-26 at 08:41 PM.
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2010-05-26, 08:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2008
Re: On dragons and the killing thereof
There's no proof it wouldn't either. And again, they walked into an unmarked cave, they did not "invade the dragon's home".
No one in the town or the bandit camp warned the OOTS about a mean black dragon in the area, did they? So why do we assume it was going to leave its lair and suddenly start killing innocent humans if the OOTS didn't do something?
Oh, right, because a sourcebook told us it would.Thanks to Elrond for the Vash avatar.
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2010-05-26, 08:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2006
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Re: On dragons and the killing thereof
The OOTS may well have known that black dragons are VIRTUALLY always murderers and pillagers, but they did not know that they were ALWAYS murderers and pillagers, and they certainly did not know THIS dragon was a murderer and pillager. So we're right back to judging an individual based on its race.
You seem to think it's OK to kill someone if there's a 90% chance of them having done something at some point that was bad, even if we don't know what it is, because other people of their race have done a lot of bad things. I personally only think it's OK to kill someone when there's a 100% chance of them having done something specific that we know about that was bad, and that race shouldn't even enter into the equation. Which one of us do you think the law agrees with?
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2010-05-26, 08:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2008
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2010-05-26, 08:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2006
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Re: On dragons and the killing thereof
Last edited by SPoD; 2010-05-26 at 08:59 PM.
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2010-05-26, 09:02 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2008
Re: On dragons and the killing thereof
Really? A area of random blackness, a defense mechanism? Looks more like a method to get tasty snacks closer to where they can be more easily caught. If the dragon shouted something like "Leave my home or be consumed/destroyed/obliterated!" or anything while they were in it, then I could agree on it being a reasonable defense mechanism, but if I were an adventurer living in a world in which black dragons are virtually always evil murderers, I'd see it as a attempt to kill me.
Last edited by Reverent-One; 2010-05-26 at 09:03 PM.
Thanks to Elrond for the Vash avatar.
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2010-05-26, 10:02 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2009
Re: On dragons and the killing thereof
I'm not accusing Roy of failing to try to leave. I'm accusing him of failing to try to talk Vaarsuvius into a different course of action. Failing even to think about trying to talk to Vaarsuvius. If he had any reservations about what V might do to the dragon when she was restored, he had every opportunity to say so. He even had a motive to say so, since it would have got him out of playing 'I Spy' with Elan for a few minutes.
But he didn't.
So once again: if V is Evil here, then so is Roy.Last edited by veti; 2010-05-26 at 10:15 PM.
"None of us likes to be hated, none of us likes to be shunned. A natural result of these conditions is, that we consciously or unconsciously pay more attention to tuning our opinions to our neighbor’s pitch and preserving his approval than we do to examining the opinions searchingly and seeing to it that they are right and sound." - Mark Twain
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2010-05-26, 10:14 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2007
Re: On dragons and the killing thereof
We don't know that roy was doing with his 24 hours. My guess is he was still letting his brain recover from the absurdity of the situation.
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2010-05-26, 10:19 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2004
Re: On dragons and the killing thereof
As SPoD said, Roy may have expected that they would discuss what they were going to do with their prisoner. Or he may simply have believed that it was pointless to attempt to argue with someone who had had the dragon threaten to eat anyone who disobeyed him/her. Or he may have never thought to care what happened to the dragon. In any case.
You're making multiple assumptions I won't grant. That Roy knew the duration of Vaarsuvius' Suggestion spell (he was shocked when Vaarsuvius said it was about to expire). That he knew Vaarsuvius planned to kill the dragon any time sooner than Vaarsuvius doing so. That he could actually have any sort of conversation with Vaarsuvius, bearing in mind that the dragon would have had to translate for Vaarsuvius, and that the dragon might well have broken free of the Suggestion had Vaarsuvius said that s/he intended to kill him. That, if Roy could have had a conversation with Vaarsuvius, his not doing so is indicative of a choice not to oppose Vaarsuvius killing the dragon, and not him stupidly not putting the "I can talk to the party member I've been ignoring ever since he got Baleful Polymorphed now" together. Any of those might be true. Any of them might be untrue. I am certainly not willing to take them all for granted.
I suspect you might have a vested interest in reaching a "no member of the Order thought it was wrong to kill monsters at that time" conclusion.Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2010-05-26, 10:45 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2009
Re: On dragons and the killing thereof
My point exactly.
He knew it would have a finite duration. He's an intelligent guy. Is it that unreasonable to assume it might have occurred to him, during eight hours of nigh-terminal boredom, that a more long-term solution would be needed at some point? And having thought that far...
See above. What do you imagine he thought Vaarsuvius was planning to do when she was restored? Loot the dragon's hoard and walk away, leaving its righteous vengeance contained only by a spell that was just about to run out?
He could talk to Vaarsuvius just fine - the dragon would only have to translate V's replies. And for Roy to reason that "the dragon might break free of the suggestion if V mentions that she intends to kill him" - would require Roy to suspect that V, in fact, did intend to kill him. As well as assuming that V was incapable of communicating with him without cluing in the dragon.
"What are we going to do about the dragon?"
"I was thinking along the lines of what Elan did with Dorukan's dungeon."
This one, I have to grant you. But it just brings us back to proposition 1: that Roy didn't really care what happened to the dragon, so long as the OOTS weren't on its menu.
And I suspect you have a vested interest in reaching a "Vaarsuvius's instinctive alignment is Thoughtless Evil" conclusion. But even if we were both right - what difference would that make?"None of us likes to be hated, none of us likes to be shunned. A natural result of these conditions is, that we consciously or unconsciously pay more attention to tuning our opinions to our neighbor’s pitch and preserving his approval than we do to examining the opinions searchingly and seeing to it that they are right and sound." - Mark Twain
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2010-05-26, 10:59 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2004
Re: On dragons and the killing thereof
Oh, make no mistake--that's a starting point at the time this thread went up, not a conclusion. Even if I granted your arguments about Roy (and while I don't, I do think it says something negative about him that his answer to Miko was "its scales weren't all shiny," and not anything about the dragon attacking them), it would only lead me to "and Roy acted nearly as badly in the cave," not anything positive about Vaarsuvius.
Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2010-05-27, 04:11 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2010
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2010-05-27, 04:35 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2007
Re: On dragons and the killing thereof
In Races of the Dragon- it states that kobolds mine lots of treasure- and donate it to dragons, in return for alliance with the dragons.
So "It was all stolen by the dragon" isn't necessarily a valid assumption.Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
New Marut Avatar by Linkele
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2010-05-27, 07:02 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2003
- Location
- The Playground
Re: On dragons and the killing thereof
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