General Exalted Discussion V: Our Armies are Pants

[Tavar]

Normally? It's a way to avoid Unnatural mental Influence.

[Gensh]

This is like doubting that the Great Curse isn't responsible for Sidereal idiocy in groups. No, dude, it really is. Read CoCD: The Underworld for a reminder. On the Eve after the Usurpation, the Solars reminded everyone why they liked them by doing something actually heroic; free of the Great Curse, 287 Solars either floated to oblivion in utter shame at their actions in life, or risked their souls again as lesser beings to save Creation from a massive invasion by the forces of the Neverborn. Again. For no gain to themselves. It made a *lot* of siddies and Dragonbloodeds think "Oh hell, were we wrong" for a reason, and that reason was seeing the Solars without the Great Curse. And many of those Solars were free enough of the Great Curse to understand and consider the Usurpation a good option in the face of their growing madness.

The other 13 Solar Ghosts were the ones who became Deathlords. Those guys? Yeah, monsters. But 13 people does not a horrifically corrupt system and existence make. I doubt Creation would be perfect with fixed Solar (And Lunar, and Sidereal) Shards, but the canon clearly states where the problems originate.

Actually, that's not quite correct. What happened is more along the lines of most of the Solars being completely satisfied with their glorious tomb-palaces and passing into Lethe within five minutes. A small fraction of the total decided to go for a walk outside first and saw there was this totally awesome war going on then decided to get in some last-minute gratuitous violence before losing all their power forever. After a while, they realized they had been terrible people in life, but generally speaking, these were the Solars who weren't so glutted on power that they were satisfied with nothing more than a gaudy tomb.

I thought that was part of the deal for demonstrating the process of abyssalization, but I've been wrong before.

Nope. They still have the Curse; it's just jury-rigged through the Torment mechanism. That's why Devil-Tigers still have it. I mean, it's not like all of them would have a theme of supernaturally flogging themselves whenever they do things they don't like.

[Kellhus]

Great Curse is kinda a funny thing isn't it? We already know from human nature that people given enormous amounts of power tend to become crazy and corrupt, especially when said power was given in the first place as for acting suicidally insane. We also know that large bureaucratic organizations tend to engage in institutional blindness and groupthink. Maybe the Great Curse was just human nature?

[RPGuru1331]

Actually, that's not quite correct. What happened is more along the lines of most of the Solars being completely satisfied with their glorious tomb-palaces and passing into Lethe within five minutes. A small fraction of the total decided to go for a walk outside first and saw there was this totally awesome war going on then decided to get in some last-minute gratuitous violence before losing all their power forever. After a while, they realized they had been terrible people in life, but generally speaking, these were the Solars who weren't so glutted on power that they were satisfied with nothing more than a gaudy tomb.

Now that is hardly fair. Ghosts generally just want to be remembered in the first place, it's by no means a Solar thing to be glad you got a tomb that was worthy of you.

True that not all of them were aware, but the book's pretty specific on their priorities in the matter, and that the primary message of everyone that wasn't a Solar was "Wow, these are awesome folks, we were wrong". The Solars apologized, or called the conspirators right. That's pretty good evidence that the main problem is the Great Curse. That and the fact that WW keeps saying it is. It takes a monster to carry out most of the stuff objections have been listed to, and the Solars (and Lunars) weren't innately so.

Nope. They still have the Curse; it's just jury-rigged through the Torment mechanism. That's why Devil-Tigers still have it. I mean, it's not like all of them would have a theme of supernaturally flogging themselves whenever they do things they don't like.

Ah, so I do misremember, I see. Well, there's still 100 good test cases without the GSP, and Lytek is aware enough of the Curse without them (Though he doesn't understand the mechanisms or the specifics), so... just needs some non-corrupt Twilights.

[Turalisj]

Twilights couldn't even figure out how Lytek scrubs the memories from an Exalt Shard. They wouldn't be able to understand how to remove the Curse from it, something he can't figure out.

[TheCountAlucard]

They wouldn't be able to understand how to remove the Curse from it, something he can't figure out.

I disagree; after all, it's a matter of figuring out what manner of being would be powerful enough to have cursed the entirety of the Exalted host, and who would've been both willing and able to do so. From there, it is possible to go and interrogate the Neverborn about it, and convince them to rescind it.

Not to say it's easy, but now it can be done.

[Story Time]

...certain Primordials were responsible for the Great Curse. And they'd probably not rescind that decision, given that they're...you know...Primordials. But there are other options. Even if somebody has to home-brew a Shard Washer made by Autochthon, there are options.

[Yuki Akuma]

Primordials can go take-backsies. They just need to give themselves a brain anueyrism to do it.

Luckily the Neverborn are already dead.

[Gensh]

Now that is hardly fair. Ghosts generally just want to be remembered in the first place, it's by no means a Solar thing to be glad you got a tomb that was worthy of you.

True that not all of them were aware, but the book's pretty specific on their priorities in the matter, and that the primary message of everyone that wasn't a Solar was "Wow, these are awesome folks, we were wrong". The Solars apologized, or called the conspirators right. That's pretty good evidence that the main problem is the Great Curse. That and the fact that WW keeps saying it is. It takes a monster to carry out most of the stuff objections have been listed to, and the Solars (and Lunars) weren't innately so.

Well, generally speaking, ghosts are bad news, regardless of whether they were Solars in life. While there are definitely exceptions, ghosts are by and large spoiled brats who refuse to pass on for some petty reason. The fact that the dead Solars had to be appeased with enormous complexes simply speaks to the grandeur of their pettiness in comparison to that of a mortal's ghost. And yes, Solars are intended to be the big damn heroes that everyone loves, but again, the ones who fought in the Underworld are the ones who still had enough of that in them that they wanted to redeem themselves in their own eyes instead of just going for the easy blank slate of reincarnation. That number is probably greater than the thirteen Deathlords, but it would still be a minority. The general reading I'm taking off of all this is that the Great Curse simply makes overcoming one's own vices more difficult. Regardless of what sort of compulsion it is, it's essentially the same as peer pressure, and the First Age Solars falling prey to the Curse are no better than Sol falling prey to the Games.

Woo! Reclamation!

[TheCountAlucard]

And yes, Solars are intended to be the big damn heroes that everyone loves, but again, the ones who fought in the Underworld are the ones who still had enough of that in them that they wanted to redeem themselves in their own eyes instead of just going for the easy blank slate of reincarnation.

...

If we're going to use this sort of reasoning, nobody in the setting is capable of being a good guy. The idea that them trying to make up for the mistakes that they made instead of not doing anything is less heroic...

The general reading I'm taking off of all this is that the Great Curse simply makes overcoming one's own vices more difficult.

There's a difference between seeking retribution when insulted, and getting so angry that you kill everyone in sight; between caring about others, and murdering because you care; between being foolhardy, and suicidally-so.

Beyond that, it implies that the Great Curse gets stronger with age, though we've yet to see any mechanics for it besides, "take Charms that give you more Limit."

Regardless of what sort of compulsion it is, it's essentially the same as peer pressure...

See above.

[Gensh]

If we're going to use this sort of reasoning, nobody in the setting is capable of being a good guy. The idea that them trying to make up for the mistakes that they made instead of not doing anything is less heroic...

Wait, what?

There's a difference between seeking retribution when insulted, and getting so angry that you kill everyone in sight; between caring about others, and murdering because you care; between being foolhardy, and suicidally-so.

Beyond that, it implies that the Great Curse gets stronger with age, though we've yet to see any mechanics for it besides, "take Charms that give you more Limit."

Right. But the fact remains that despite being imbued with the literal essence of perfection and virtue, the vast majority of them lived like pigs and were debatably the least moral characters in the entire history of the setting. Normally, killing innocents is the point when the hero starts to notice that something's wrong with him and tries to find a way to stop himself. Instead, the Solars seemed to revel in their Jekyl-and-Hyde morality. As always, there are exceptions - the king and queen pair (can't remember if one was a Lunar) who died protecting their citizens from the rape and pillage war machine of the dragonblooded, for example, or Ozandus Pal - but regardless, the Solars as a whole were the biggest monsters in the setting simply because they were best equipped to fight the Curse and didn't, again, just the same as Sol chooses not to free himself from the Games.

[TheCountAlucard]

Wait, what?

You're saying that their attempts at redemption are the results of pettiness, et cetera. These ghosts, though, realized that they'd done something wrong, and attempted to fix it.

So, attempting to make up for the heinous things one's done in life is inherently selfish? That doesn't seem to work. Especially when the alternative is doing nothing to fix it.

...but regardless, the Solars as a whole were the biggest monsters in the setting simply because they were best equipped to fight the Curse and didn't, again, just the same as Sol chooses not to free himself from the Games.

But they didn't know about the Curse, even in the deepest throes of it.

[Gensh]

You're saying that their attempts at redemption are the results of pettiness, et cetera. These ghosts, though, realized that they'd done something wrong, and attempted to fix it.

So, attempting to make up for the heinous things one's done in life is inherently selfish? That doesn't seem to work.

No, I was saying that the initial impetus for their heroics was pettiness. Once they were free of the Curse (and incidentally nigh-limitless power) for a while, they began to realize exactly what they had done. It's then that it became a matter of redemption.

But they didn't know about the Curse, even in the deepest throes of it.

They didn't have to know about the Curse, just like Sol doesn't have to know that the Games are a force that even the Primordials couldn't compel; all that matters is that the heroic thing to do would be to realize that things weren't as they should be and a desire to overcome it. By all rights, they should have thought the Curse was merely a symptom of their own personal selfishness and tried to overcome it just as they had overcome their other frailties. Yet only a minority of them did, and even those few who overcame the Curse did nothing to stop their fellows. After all, a Solar would answer to another Solar even when they wouldn't to anyone else, so maybe they would have been able to try something.

I'm not saying everything that's wrong with the setting is the fault of the Solars, just that they didn't really put any effort into stopping themselves. Of course, neither did the Lunars, nor the Sidereals (who had suspicions that there was an external force at work, if I remember correctly). I'm just saying that the Solars really aren't that heroic. After all, human dominance of Creation is based principally on the genocide of all the other sentient species, save the Primordials and jadeborn, who were horrifyingly mutilated, and the dragon-kings and Lintha, who were left to rot.

[DeadManSleeping]

If we're going to use this sort of reasoning, nobody in the setting is capable of being a good guy.

To be fair, a lot of the official writing seems to try to make a case for that.

[Guancyto]

To be fair, a lot of the official writing seems to try to make a case for that.

They do go overboard with it sometimes, but I see it as a necessary evil.

The way I see it, one of the chief conceits of the setting is that no splat is inherently wrong. So there needs to be at least some writing that suggests that "destroy everything, everywhere, forever" is a valid perspective or else the Loyalist Abyssals and Balorian Raksha get left out in the cold.

</randomtangent>

[Qaera]

I think that's mainly because one of the writers (dunno who) thinks that Exalted should be a tale of failure and tragedy, and incorporated it into the game. I think he gave Autobot cancer.

[golentan]

They do go overboard with it sometimes, but I see it as a necessary evil.

The way I see it, one of the chief conceits of the setting is that no splat is inherently wrong. So there needs to be at least some writing that suggests that "destroy everything, everywhere, forever" is a valid perspective or else the Loyalist Abyssals and Balorian Raksha get left out in the cold.

</randomtangent>

It may be self consistent, but that doesn't make it valid from any external perspective. People tend to overlook that sort of thing, sadly.

[Gensh]

It may be self consistent, but that doesn't make it valid from any external perspective. People tend to overlook that sort of thing, sadly.

Except it does. Would you rather Creation ruled forever by the Ebon Dragon or instead destroy it, ending all pain and suffering forever? It's not a Good End, but it's certainly better than the alternative, and there are people who would say the same for several of the other powers vying for control of Creation. While it may not be a valid choice from your perspective, it may be the only choice from another's.

[Lord Raziere]

The Curse is a subtle thing.....all it does is turn flaws already there into more extreme flaws.

that and the only faction that truly saw the big picture here was the Sidereals.
the Solars, while magnificent and like to do epic things, aren't actually that good at long term thinking or seeing the big picture.
for example, the Twilights mentioned in the Sidereal Manual that started using magic just to see how much they could tear the Loom of Fate up. In the First Age. despite the long term and big picture thinking that tells us: THIS IS A BAD THING.

The Solars did it anyway out of curiosity. That and Solars aren't actually teamwork guys, that is Terrestrials. The 300 Solars were all probably off doing their own thing up and down Creation with little communication between them even in the First Age, I mean even having one Solar around at someplace is enough to improve upon things quite a bit and to their view they had the rest of thousands of years to perfect their utopia- Creation wasn't going anywhere and the Primordials were beaten. They could afford to take their time. They wouldn't need any deadline or overall plan, to Solars it would be enough that everywhere was improving and things were getting Better.

So no, I don't think they would've noticed, sure if a Twilight traveled a lot and noticed the pattern, yes. but even then the Twilight would have no clue where to start to explain the problem; maybe its just post-mortals slowly breaking under the strain of immortality and super-godly power, maybe after a while immortal people become set in their ways and start exaggerating themselves a bit, or something. problem is: where in Malfeas did you get this "Great Curse of the Neverborn" from? Even if you teleported right there and told a Twilight all about the Great Curse and such- would they actually believe that the Neverborn cursed all the Exalts at the instant of their death and that such a powerful complex thing could be done in like that short amount of time and be so subtle as to avoid notice by all the Exalts in existence for thousands of years?

the leaps of logic from "Solars are acting a little weird" to "We have been cursed by the long-dead Primordials to be crazy and corrupt and such"
would be staggering. There are a thousand different explanations you could make that would be more plausible.

So no, it wasn't noticed, mostly because only the Sidereals were in the long-term, big picture position to notice the trend. the rest is history.

[golentan]

Except it does. Would you rather Creation ruled forever by the Ebon Dragon or instead destroy it, ending all pain and suffering forever? It's not a Good End, but it's certainly better than the alternative, and there are people who would say the same for several of the other powers vying for control of Creation. While it may not be a valid choice from your perspective, it may be the only choice from another's.

That's not the question at hand, though, is it? The question is "is there anyone ruling creation who can get there in the second age that is better than killing everyone?" And the answer is, in my mind, unequivocally "yes." Ebby takes over, then we could talk again.

[Gensh]

That's not the question at hand, though, is it? The question is "is there anyone ruling creation who can get there in the second age that is better than killing everyone?" And the answer is, in my mind, unequivocally "yes." Ebby takes over, then we could talk again.

That's simply taking the short view. Equally viable is someone taking the long view that eventually Steve or the Mask of Winters or someone is going to take over, and when they do, there is no heroic character capable of stopping them. To clarify, I prefer a middle view that if I waste all my free time making Malfeas Charms, I can make hell the BEST PLACE EVER then open a resort that charges dragonblooded nobles exorbitant amounts of cash.

[golentan]

I disagree. One of the perks of exalted is that until everything is lost, there will always be a possibility of heroes to stop it.

[Gensh]

I disagree. One of the perks of exalted is that until everything is lost, there will always be a possibility of heroes to stop it.

Not when even the Solars, in all their designated-hero glory, refuse to get over themselves for five minutes. There's something wrong when even the world-killing monsters are better people.

[Lord Raziere]

which ones? the big cosmic horror ones, the thirteen crazy ones or the one hundred who were formed from Solars?

[Volthawk]

Equally viable is someone taking the long view that eventually Steve or the Mask of Winters or someone is going to take over, and when they do, there is no heroic character capable of stopping them.:

Who is this Steve you speak of?

[Qaera]

Steve is a Solar. He's been working on his problems, and today alone, he's quit cocaine 42 times.

We're still working on the hookers bit, but let's just Panther and him Exalted at the same time.

[Gensh]

which ones? the big cosmic horror ones, the thirteen crazy ones or the one hundred who were formed from Solars?

Hilariously, almost all of them. I'd say the Neverborn tie with Solars, but they're crazy, even by Primordial standards, so I'd say they're beyond traditional morality. On the other hand, several of the Yozis really aren't that bad, barring again, the alienness of the Primoridal mindset. As for demons, Ligier actually gets my vote for most "good" character in the entire setting. The Deathlords have to be discussed on a case-by-case basis, but really, I'd consider all but the Lover as more pathetic and deserving varying degrees of pity than evil. As for the Abyssals and Infernals, they all just happened to have one hell of a bad day and decided to make the best out of a bad situation rather than dying and passing the buck to someone else. Of course, as Solaroids, most of them are still terrible people, but for every rogue you see, particularly in Abyssals, that's the type of person who should be a Solar. Abyssals become Solars because they deserve it. Solars become Solars because of stupidity, barring a few outlying cases.

Who is this Steve you speak of?

Deliberately left ambiguous. It could mean any random Joe like ATW said or for those who've read Luna's Guide to Being a Raksha in Creation, it's the Ebon Dragon.

[Turalisj]

Steve is a Solar. He's been working on his problems, and today alone, he's quit cocaine 42 times.

We're still working on the hookers bit, but let's just Panther and him Exalted at the same time.

So, wait, Steve has Temperance 1? Or what? Because that's the only way I could see him trying to quit cocaine 42 times in a day and fail.

[Lord Raziere]

Hilariously, almost all of them. I'd say the Neverborn tie with Solars, but they're crazy, even by Primordial standards, so I'd say they're beyond traditional morality. On the other hand, several of the Yozis really aren't that bad, barring again, the alienness of the Primoridal mindset. As for demons, Ligier actually gets my vote for most "good" character in the entire setting. The Deathlords have to be discussed on a case-by-case basis, but really, I'd consider all but the Lover as more pathetic and deserving varying degrees of pity than evil. As for the Abyssals and Infernals, they all just happened to have one hell of a bad day and decided to make the best out of a bad situation rather than dying and passing the buck to someone else. Of course, as Solaroids, most of them are still terrible people, but for every rogue you see, particularly in Abyssals, that's the type of person who should be a Solar. Abyssals become Solars because they deserve it. Solars become Solars because of stupidity, barring a few outlying cases.

........I doubt most of this, but I agree with you on the Abyssal and Infernal Renegade thing. but then again I don't like Solars much myself, mostly because they are bland mechanically and flavorfully and such. that and I don't like brainwashing.

[Qaera]

Hilariously, almost all of them. I'd say the Neverborn tie with Solars, but they're crazy, even by Primordial standards, so I'd say they're beyond traditional morality. On the other hand, several of the Yozis really aren't that bad, barring again, the alienness of the Primoridal mindset. As for demons, Ligier actually gets my vote for most "good" character in the entire setting. The Deathlords have to be discussed on a case-by-case basis, but really, I'd consider all but the Lover as more pathetic and deserving varying degrees of pity than evil. As for the Abyssals and Infernals, they all just happened to have one hell of a bad day and decided to make the best out of a bad situation rather than dying and passing the buck to someone else. Of course, as Solaroids, most of them are still terrible people, but for every rogue you see, particularly in Abyssals, that's the type of person who should be a Solar. Abyssals become Solars because they deserve it. Solars become Solars because of stupidity, barring a few outlying cases.


Deliberately left ambiguous. It could mean any random Joe like ATW said or for those who've read Luna's Guide to Being a Raksha in Creation, it's the Ebon Dragon.

That essay is hilarious.

So, wait, Steve has Temperance 1? Or what? Because that's the only way I could see him trying to quit cocaine 42 times in a day and fail.

Nah, he's Conviction 5. Dedicated to destroying the Guild's drug business, so he buys all their products and destroys them. Nasally.

{Scrubbed}