My Little Pony XXXIV: There is Pony of it, no exceptions!

[Kyouhen]

*The unicorn pony notices Thanqol*

HAVE AT THEE!

*Throws a calming pie at him too.

Did you use extra butter on that pie? I hope you used extra butter.

[Lix Lorn]

...

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Lixie founded Equestria? That explains ... alot

...what could that possibly explain? XD

I disagree with this on absolutely every level imaginable. Neil Gaiman, for instance, has never been kidnapped by faeries, and isn't a barely literate expert from another field. Terry Pratchett was a switchboard operator for a few years before he became a writer, and has been writing for decades since, and his talent isn't switchboard operating being applied to writing. It's writing. And I've never suffered insanity or personal trauma, I have cursory interest in economics and business but they're not what I write about, or write for - and you're telling me that my prose will always be empty and hollow?

It's taking me a lot of effort not to get personally offended.

This.

[Thanqol]

*The unicorn pony notices Thanqol*

HAVE AT THEE!

*Throws a calming pie at him too.

Hm

I've been hit by a pie and I'm not surprised by it. I am, in fact, calm. Which means I can plot out my vengeance with perfect clarity.

*Picks up eggbeater, whirs it ominously*

[Kyouhen]

Hm

I've been hit by a pie and I'm not surprised by it. I am, in fact, calm. Which means I can plot out my vengeance with perfect clarity.

*Picks up eggbeater, whirs it ominously*

Tormato? Tormato.

...Why is that the first thing I thought of?

[Pokonic]

*A unicorn Guardpony in full regalia walks in*

CAUTION?!?! THIS. IS. PONYSANITY!

*Throws a pie at Newman*

Nah, it would be the !!Sparten!! pegusi who would be kicking the followers of that living god into the pit. To be fair, a picture of a decked out Celestia in all that gold overlooking 300 pegusi would be epic. Also, Flutteritas.

[HalfTangible]

I disagree with this on absolutely every level imaginable. Neil Gaiman, for instance, has never been kidnapped by faeries, and isn't a barely literate expert from another field. Terry Pratchett was a switchboard operator for a few years before he became a writer, and has been writing for decades since, and his talent isn't switchboard operating being applied to writing. It's writing. And I've never suffered insanity or personal trauma, I have cursory interest in economics and business but they're not what I write about, or write for - and you're telling me that my prose will always be empty and hollow?

It's taking me a lot of effort not to get personally offended.

'Things you know' doesn't mean 'things you've personally experienced', Thanqol. Issac Asimov may never have built a nuclear power generator the size of a grape, but he'd imagined his universe so strongly that he knew what that would be like. J.K. Rowling may never have cast a spell, but she admitted she based Harry and his friends (and even locations like the forbidden forest) off of real people and things. I've never been a soldier but I know what I'd LIKE to be in that position. Things like that.

As opposed to an Aetheist trying to write a story based around religious faith, or a spoiled rich kid writing about growing up in a ghetto.

[Thanqol]

'Things you know' doesn't mean 'things you've personally experienced', Thanqol. Issac Asimov may never have built a nuclear power generator the size of a grape, but he'd imagined his universe so strongly that he knew what that would be like. J.K. Rowling may never have cast a spell, but she admitted she based Harry and his friends (and even locations like the forbidden forest) off of real people and things.

If imagining things strongly counts as knowledge then the statement is aggressively meaningless and I should be getting much higher marks on my exams.

[Lix Lorn]

Yes, but that's not what he said. He said that 'See, the thing is, the best writers tend to write what they know. So if your super special talent is writing itself, then, well. Your books will surely be full of excellent, empty but superbly crafted prose. '

You don't have to be an EXPERT in something to know it. You don't have to have a special talent for apple bucking to know enough about it to write a book about an apple bucker. You need to do the research. Same as humans do.

[HalfTangible]

If imagining things strongly counts as knowledge then the statement is aggressively meaningless and I should be getting much higher marks on my exams.

It does when you're writing fiction, because you're making everything up anyway.

[Thanqol]

Yes, but that's not what he said. He said that 'See, the thing is, the best writers tend to write what they know. So if your super special talent is writing itself, then, well. Your books will surely be full of excellent, empty but superbly crafted prose. '

You don't have to be an EXPERT in something to know it. You don't have to have a special talent for apple bucking to know enough about it to write a book about an apple bucker. You need to do the research. Same as humans do.

For that matter, I'm having a hard time thinking of any Nobel physicists, bioweapons experts or former presidents of the united states who have written anything I'd be remotely interested in reading.

It does when you're writing fiction, because you're making everything up anyway.

Then the statement means nothing at all. Because there is no knowledge, it is impossible to write what you know, which means that chefs have no advantage over trained writers.

Also, if you think that fiction is 'making everything up' then you are wrong.

[Tiki Snakes]

I disagree with this on absolutely every level imaginable. Neil Gaiman, for instance, has never been kidnapped by faeries, and isn't a barely literate expert from another field. Terry Pratchett was a switchboard operator for a few years before he became a writer, and has been writing for decades since, and his talent isn't switchboard operating being applied to writing. It's writing. And I've never suffered insanity or personal trauma, I have cursory interest in economics and business but they're not what I write about, or write for - and you're telling me that my prose will always be empty and hollow?

It's taking me a lot of effort not to get personally offended.

Actually, I think I've just failed to get my message across right. What you describe above is certainly wrong, and not how it would or should work.
I'll have one last go at explaining.

So, using the above examples for Neil and Terry; Their talent is, in both cases really, telling stories rather than writing. They'd be no less awesome if you were sitting listening to them spin a yarn down the pub. Certainly, Neil at least is very good when I've heard him reading his own stories audiobook style which is the closest to that I'm likely to get!

I don't know, it's probably a very nitpicky distinction between telling stories and writing, but in the case of pony-style 'Special Talents' that how I see it as well as I can explain. A Pony whose special talent is the craft of writing itself, rather than storytelling, or a field of expertise, is going to write a very different book to one who has other talents but can also write.

Not that People really get the whole 'Special Talent' deal in the same way that ponies do. There always seemed to be an implied inevitability to the process in the show, whereas in the real world many people go through their whole lives without finding any one 'special talent' or over-riding interest.

Sorry if my clumsy attempt at explaining my thought process caused any offence.

[Thanqol]

Actually, I think I've just failed to get my message across right. What you describe above is certainly wrong, and not how it would or should work.
I'll have one last go at explaining.

So, using the above examples for Neil and Terry; Their talent is, in both cases really, telling stories rather than writing. They'd be no less awesome if you were sitting listening to them spin a yarn down the pub. Certainly, Neil at least is very good when I've heard him reading his own stories audiobook style which is the closest to that I'm likely to get!

I don't know, it's probably a very nitpicky distinction between telling stories and writing, but in the case of pony-style 'Special Talents' that how I see it as well as I can explain. A Pony whose special talent is the craft of writing itself, rather than storytelling, or a field of expertise, is going to write a very different book to one who has other talents but can also write.

Not that People really get the whole 'Special Talent' deal in the same way that ponies do. There always seemed to be an implied inevitability to the process in the show, whereas in the real world many people go through their whole lives without finding any one 'special talent' or over-riding interest.

Sorry if my clumsy attempt at explaining my thought process caused any offence.

I still disagree with the assertion on a fundamental level. It makes me angrier than it should because it's essentially dissing every career author I've ever admired in favour of hacks. Provide me, if you can, a demonstrable example of a chef or an engineer writing a compelling narrative. In fact, if university has taught me anything, it's that experts from other disciplines are atrocious writers who can barely write textbooks in ways that demand attention. It's just wrong.

[Topaz]

For that matter, I'm having a hard time thinking of any Nobel physicists, bioweapons experts or former presidents of the united states who have written anything I'd be remotely interested in reading.

In all seriousness, I can recommend the
Personal Memoirs of U.S. Grant.
Unless you meant recent former presidents.

Also, ponies.

And I'm an engineer but I don't know that I'd call my narratives compelling...

[SiuiS]

New Ep?

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My main problem with this theory is the fact that every pony in the show seems to treat the princesses as royalty instead of gods. I'm willing to accept that they could forget things like the history of Discord and whatnot, but I can't accept the idea that they'd all randomly forget that there's a pair of gods living down the street

Unspoilerd because it's a continuation of discussion from several weeks ago;

You make the mistake of forgetting that most royalty ruled with divine mandate. The line, mythically, between king and god is somewhat blurred. Often, kings and queens were considered divine themselves.

Wow, I'm several degrees of impress.

exactly! Several degrees of empress? Contests, you're divine ;3

[Anarion]

I still disagree with the assertion on a fundamental level. It makes me angrier than it should because it's essentially dissing every career author I've ever admired in favour of hacks. Provide me, if you can, a demonstrable example of a chef or an engineer writing a compelling narrative. In fact, if university has taught me anything, it's that experts from other disciplines are atrocious writers who can barely write textbooks in ways that demand attention. It's just wrong.

I didn't intend to start such a heated discussion, but now that's it's going I'd like to say that I come down on Thanqol's side of the debate.

Telling someone to write what they know is only good advice for a new writer because being a new writer implies that you don't have writing experience, so you need to draw on something else to inform your narrative.

There are some authors that might get into writing via their specialization and only write one particular genre of book, such as people that only do political biographies, or authors that only write murder mysteries. But even those people are still writers first and specialists second.

I think the vast majority of writers enjoy writing itself and choose their topics based on a combination of interest, experience, and research.

Then there are prolific career writers, whether they be novelists, script-writers, journalists etc. who can and do write about anything they please by simply investigating the topic and putting it into prose.

[Thanqol]

In all seriousness, I can recommend the
Personal Memoirs of U.S. Grant.
Unless you meant recent former presidents.

Also, ponies.

Thanks for the recommendation, but diaries/memoirs/non fiction wasn't quite what I was addressing here. Compare and contrast Twain's Huckleberry Finn verses Harriet Jacob's Incidents in the Life of a Slave Girl if you want to see two authors tackle the same subject, one as someone writing their own life story, and the other as a professional author writing a work of fiction.

The fact that most folk are guaranteed to have read one of those and not the other kind of contributes to my point.

[/may have written papers on this subject]

[Tiki Snakes]

I'm not any kind of expert and I certainly can't link to any examples that would corroborate my thought process. I'm also certainly not sure I'd link any real-world authors to the kind of pony who I'd imagine would get a 'writing' specific mark. I guess to my mind a writing cutie mark is something a secretary pony might get rather than an Author Pony.

But it's not like it would be the first time that my way of thinking was the bit that was backwards and wrong.

I'm just going to throw my hands up here and claim a Case of the Dumb, i get those sometimes.

[Lord Raziere]

Yea, I'm planning on being a sci-fi-/fantasy novelist one day, but lots of research needs to be done about science, about society and all that, I consider the entire world my inspiration for my writings. in all its ups and downs.

[Thanqol]

I'm not any kind of expert and I certainly can't link to any examples that would corroborate my thought process. I'm also certainly not sure I'd link any real-world authors to the kind of pony who I'd imagine would get a 'writing' specific mark. I guess to my mind a writing cutie mark is something a secretary pony might get rather than an Author Pony.

But it's not like it would be the first time that my way of thinking was the bit that was backwards and wrong.

I'm just going to throw my hands up here and claim a Case of the Dumb, i get those sometimes.

We've had an author pony with a writing cutie mark since about thread three (Shimmer Snowflake). And because Shimmer is adorable, implying that she isn't as good at her talent as some other pony who does it as a hobby is directly contributing to making an adorable pony cry.

And if that happens I will end you.

[Pokonic]

Unspoilerd because it's a continuation of discussion from several weeks ago;

You make the mistake of forgetting that most royalty ruled with divine mandate. The line, mythically, between king and god is somewhat blurred. Often, kings and queens were considered divine themselves.

I would think this may be nullified if one would think Celestia had the forsight to teach them from a young age that she is a ruler, not a deity to be worshiped. As such, ponies would not think of her as the Sun Princess, Bringer of Light and Binder of Nightmare Moon and the Spirit of Chaos, but as a ruler in both the world and goverment. Heck, one would think that she could have them thinking about her whatever she wanted, because she is the only thing in the land who has been there for more than a few generations.

[Kindablue]

Brrrr. It's gettin' a little chilly in here, huh, y'all?

[BlasTech]

Nah, it would be the !!Sparten!! pegusi who would be kicking the followers of that living god into the pit. To be fair, a picture of a decked out Celestia in all that gold overlooking 300 pegusi would be epic. Also, Flutteritas.

Closest I could find at short notice sorry:

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We've had an author pony with a writing cutie mark since about thread three (Shimmer Snowflake). And because Shimmer is adorable, implying that she isn't as good at her talent as some other pony who does it as a hobby is directly contributing to making an adorable pony cry.

And if that happens I will end you.

*Readies more calming pies*

Actually, I think we might need something bigger for this one ...

*Readies a calming CAKE*

All this talk of writers (particularly good writers) is making me rather skittish about posting chapter 3 of my fanfic (which is particularly bad writing)

Oh well, I'll put it on my to-do list for tomorrow. Hopefully everyone will have forgotten by then!

[Anarion]

Closest I could find at short notice sorry:

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*Readies more calming pies*

Actually, I think we might need something bigger for this one ...

*Readies a calming CAKE*

All this talk of writers (particularly good writers) is making me rather skittish about posting chapter 3 of my fanfic (which is particularly bad writing)

Oh well, I'll put it on my to-do list for tomorrow. Hopefully everyone will have forgotten by then!

What, no, don't wait. Post it, post it, post it. If there's one thing we like here, it's helping writers improve, which has absolutely nothing to do with where they started in terms of skill.

[Pokonic]

Closest I could find at short notice sorry:

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Ahh, most do not know the power of the leader of the pegaspartens. There leader made a dragonsubmit to her with her stare, and felled a cocatrace with a glare. Some even whisper that she snapped a ursas neck and skinned it, and its hide makes up her houses rug. Her rabbit has a kill list higher than most elite army legions, and they say that her mother is none other than a queen of the rare and feared Flutterponies.

[Tiki Snakes]

Two posts apologising for a train of thought, and I'm still getting nebulous internet-threats?

In ponythread?

Really?

Alright, if you want me to play the badguy I may as well go along with it.

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Applejack, with a bit of help, would write a far better agricultural book. Pinkie Pie, with a decent editor could far surpass Snowflake Shimmer in the field of experimental avant-garde surrealist comedy. Rarity could write rings around her on the subject of the principles of Equestrian fashion, having a depth and breadth of knowledge of the subject far in advance of Snowflakes as well as a much more genuine passion for it.

And tears are delicious.

Of course, the fact that any of the above working with someone like Snowflake who's talent is writing would result in likely a more readable, accessable and generally superior product to either alone is quite beside the point.

[Pokonic]

Two posts apologising for a train of thought, and I'm still getting nebulous internet-threats?

In ponythread?

Really?

Alright, if you want me to play the badguy I may as well go along with it.

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Applejack, with a bit of help, would write a far better agricultural book. Pinkie Pie, with a decent editor could far surpass Snowflake Shimmer in the field of experimental avant-garde surrealist comedy. Rarity could write rings around her on the subject of the principles of Equestrian fashion, having a depth and breadth of knowledge of the subject far in advance of Snowflakes as well as a much more genuine passion for it.

And tears are delicious.

Of course, the fact that any of the above working with someone like Snowflake who's talent is writing would result in likely a more readable, accessable and generally superior product to either alone is quite beside the point.

I must disagree with you about Pinkies writing skills. She is obviusly a writer for Gainax. FLCL was the result of her attempting to write a drama, and accedently fell into the hands of the higher ups and got greenlighted for a few episodes.

[Kyouhen]

Unspoilerd because it's a continuation of discussion from several weeks ago;

You make the mistake of forgetting that most royalty ruled with divine mandate. The line, mythically, between king and god is somewhat blurred. Often, kings and queens were considered divine themselves.



exactly! Several degrees of empress? Contests, you're divine ;3

First thought: I've ascended to godhood?

Second thought: BWAHAHAHAHA!

Yeah, played D&D yesterday. The DM decided to stick us in a dungeon that was entirely a wild magic zone so he could test out wild magic using the 2nd ED wild magic table. The end result was one of the party members turning into a Divine Rank 1 god by stating, completely in-character and with no meta, "I've ascended to godhood!" The DM cried.

[Anarion]

Two posts apologising for a train of thought, and I'm still getting nebulous internet-threats?

In ponythread?

Really?

Alright, if you want me to play the badguy I may as well go along with it.

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Applejack, with a bit of help, would write a far better agricultural book. Pinkie Pie, with a decent editor could far surpass Snowflake Shimmer in the field of experimental avant-garde surrealist comedy. Rarity could write rings around her on the subject of the principles of Equestrian fashion, having a depth and breadth of knowledge of the subject far in advance of Snowflakes as well as a much more genuine passion for it.

And tears are delicious.

Of course, the fact that any of the above working with someone like Snowflake who's talent is writing would result in likely a more readable, accessable and generally superior product to either alone is quite beside the point.

Why are we posting in spoilers now? I don't know, but I'll go along with it. Also, this will be my last word on the subject, since we're probably belaboring it a bit at this point. And finally, I want to point out that I'm not attacking you, Tiki Snakes. I'm enjoying the debate because I like the topic and I like arguing too (I am a law student...). If you're feeling personally attacked, know that I have no such intentions.

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I disagree with you. Applejack probably wouldn't even be able to finish the book. She would grow frustrated with the writing process and use a number of expressions and colloquialisms that would make her work difficult to read, even for its intended audience. A skilled author who interviewed Applejack and translated Applejack's thoughts into prose would make for the best book.

Pinkie Pie shows signs of being a savant from time to time, so I wouldn't put it past her to write a book. But it would be disorganized, hasty, and probably lack in variety and good vocabulary because Pinkie has never displayed traits indicative of scholarship or organization. Making her surrealist comedy into a good book would require a spectacular editor, and considering the required rewrites, we might as well call that editor the real author.

Your description makes me think that you imagine someone skilled at writing simply sitting down at a desk with neither inspiration nor plans on what to write. That's not how it works. The best writers are people who are actually writers with training and experience in writing. Then they select a topic, or the topic is dropped on their lap and they go out and learn about it. They interview experts, read books, and gather data as needed. And then they translate all that info into something that's actually good to read.

[Pokonic]

First thought: I've ascended to godhood?

Second thought: BWAHAHAHAHA!

So, should we start the cults up again, or what? The Childeren of Nightmare are prepared for this insolent newcomer.

[HalfTangible]

Then the statement means nothing at all. Because there is no knowledge, it is impossible to write what you know, which means that chefs have no advantage over trained writers.

What? When did I say 'there is no knowledge'? When did I even IMPLY that?!

Strong imaginations counts as knowledge when dealing with fiction because fiction is made up - it's not a deliberately researched account of an actual event, or a scientific journal, or an autobiography. Sooner or later you have to make stuff up for it to be fiction.

Especially when you're talking Asimov's work (which is the one that you seemed to focus on) - he imagined an entire GALAXY in which his Sci-fi events took place. EVERYTHING about the Foundation universe was made-up.

THAT'S why it mattered that he'd imagined his universe so well - because he knew it inside and out, he was able to present it in a very clear and consistent (if sometimes confusing) manner.

Also, if you think that fiction is 'making everything up' then you are wrong.

That is EXACTLY what fiction is. That's all fiction MEANS: a story that's made up. If nothing about it was made-up, it'd be NONFICTION.

fic·tion [fik-shuhn]
noun
1. the class of literature comprising works of imaginative narration, especially in prose form.
2. works of this class, as novels or short stories: detective fiction.
3. something feigned, invented, or imagined; a made-up story
4. the act of feigning, inventing, or imagining.
5. an imaginary thing or event, postulated for the purposes of argument or explanation.

(2 4 and 5 are irrelevant to the discussion)