OOTS #830 - The Discussion Thread

[Skaven]

She was dumb and probably deserved it. She had insane magic at her command and lots of it.. and walked around completely without protection, even when Redcloak proved he was dangerous and deceitful during the battle. She had plenty of spells that lasted an hour per level and lots more that lasted ten minutes/level.

Quite frankly she was an insult to her intelligence and wisdom scores, which she would have needed to be able to cast her magic.

Also: Chekhov's gun: Redcloak now has a ring to protect him vs Xykons touch attacks.

[Lord Bingo]

Finally Tsukiko got was what rightfully coming to her - a horrible death by the hands of her children.

Thx Giant.

[Azukar]

Hehe, with SoD in my mind already, it took me a while to figure out why this strip would be such a revelation for other readers.

But if you hadn't read SoD, you didn't know some of the critical details until just now! With that in mind, whadda-tweest!

[BobVosh]

There is the redcloak I know and love. He still needs lessons from Tarquin.

[gibbo88]

Holy cow Rich, that was awesome. I've been waiting for what seems like ages for her to be put in her place.

[137beth]

I'm expecting RC will just tell Xykon that Tsukiko tried to steal the phylactery, so he had to kill her.

[maxon]

Did we ever get his name? If he's RC's conscience (at least with respect to goblinoids)

If he was Redcloak's conscience, then he just lost it. And that should worry everyone.

[R. Shackleford]

I love Team Evil pages, because if Team Evil were PCs, this is probably how I'd want to see an all-evil party campaign go.

Everyone making gambits and passing notes to the DM about betrayals and stuff, and then we run a dungeon, everyone fearing a Drow promotion the next time they drop to 0 HP...

[toughluck]

And Xykon could know that Tsukiko is/was in love with him, which makes her more trustworthy than RC.

There's a fine line between love and hate and it's easy for Tsukiko to switch sides in seconds if she feels cast away by Xykon.

Killing Tsukiko won't make Redcloak more trustworthy. I doubt he'll get away with that. Even though he can explain it with her breaking into his room, Xykon will want to know why she broke in and what she found there.

There's one problem with this reasoning: Xykon doesn't care about his minions. Even if Xykon decided to play CSI, Redcloak wouldn't need to lie much, just say the truth that she barged in trying to find the divine half of the ritual* and that she tried to get it all to herself.
*) Xykon knows there are two halves (or at least that two casters, divine and arcane, are required for the ritual). He ordered Tsukiko to figure out his part, NOT to acquire Redcloak's or tip him off, so it would be immediately suspicious -- even to Xykon.

Heck, I can imagine Xykon killing Tsukiko just before they left Gobbotopia to not have her around as a dead weight.

RC did everything right except he explained his master plan at the end. In a world where people can communicate with the afterlife and come back from the dead. I can think of few moves more stupid.

I think you are grossly overestimating how commonplace Raise Dead or Speak with Dead is. RC didn't bother using SWD during any Resistance attack, neither did Tsukiko. We only have two successful examples of RD in the comic (and one unsuccessful), where just one happened on-screen.
That, and Raise Dead wouldn't do squat to bring her back from the dead. Sure, Xykon could cast Wish, but again -- metagame thinking lends to the idea that using Wish is based on your scores, you just describe the effects and you know what's going to happen -- easy and predictable. CRPGs reinforce that idea, in fact. In pen and paper games, the person playing the caster is expected to formulate his or her wish, and the DM is expected to wring and twist the wording of the wish to its fullest potential while staying technically within the limits.

[toughluck]

Okay, two things about Xykon raising Tsukiko:

1. With regards to raising or speaking with dead: It's impossible now. True resurrection would be possible, but Xykon doesn't know that Redcloak has this spell, and it's likely that he doesn't know the difference between Raise Dead and Resurrection.
2. Wish wouldn't bring her back if Xykon didn't spell out specifically that her levels would need to be fully restored as well. Before he would be able to figure out what exactly happened and how to bring her back, 24 hours would pass, and the negative levels would change to permanent since she doesn't get a save to losing those levels. That's how I'd play it, anyway.

One observation about Redcloak's control of Xykon (SoD spoiler, but I figure it it obvious if you're observant enough):
3. Xykon can be controlled, more or less. He's like a locomotive with regards to a lot of inertia -- plus, it's technically a tool. Even if you don't know the controls, you can push it on its rails given a strong enough push, and it will continue down the tracks unless a suitably strong force is applied.

Spoiler

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Redcloak knew exactly how to push Xykon down the railroad plot to get to the Gate. The ritual that Xykon was given was explained to enable Xykon to rule the world. Xykon found that a worthy goal and was set on his way. If that wasn't enough, after destroying Lirian's Gate, Redcloak was sure he failed, but Xykon learned that there are other gates and it proved how determined he was to continue with the plot.

All in all, Redcloak doesn't micromanage Xykon. He doesn't control Xykon's actions, he cannot command him either. But this doesn't mean he cannot influence Xykon's decisions to suit his own goals.

[Animidest]

Well done, Rich and smooth. I especially liked the perspective of undead as tools, after getting us all used to the image of them being very, for lack of a better word, lifelike. All of the wights talking, expressing what seems to be emotions (e.g. comic 514), and the presence of free-willed undead such as Xykon, and then this? Brutal. I'm starting to think that Redcloak deserves the title of "Archvillain".

[deathsli'helper]

So Redcloak is Manipulating Xycon, who was manipulating everone else? I thought he had more influence then they made it seem but DANG. I think that was the oddest comic yet.

[Doug Lampert]

Sure, Xykon could cast Wish, but again -- metagame thinking lends to the idea that using Wish is based on your scores, you just describe the effects and you know what's going to happen -- easy and predictable. CRPGs reinforce that idea, in fact. In pen and paper games, the person playing the caster is expected to formulate his or her wish, and the DM is expected to wring and twist the wording of the wish to its fullest potential while staying technically within the limits.

No. In 3.0 and 3.5 D&D there is a long and specific list of things that wish can do with NO risk of backfire or twisted wording. The things within those rules working and on how they work are every bit as well covered by the rules as any other spell and no more liable to twisted interpretation than Magic Missile is.

A wish can produce any one of the following effects.

•Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 8th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
•Duplicate any other spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
•Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 7th level or lower even if it’s of a prohibited school.
•Duplicate any other spell of 5th level or lower even if it’s of a prohibited school.
•Undo the harmful effects of many other spells, such as geas/quest or insanity.
•Create a nonmagical item of up to 25,000 gp in value.
•Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item.
•Grant a creature a +1 inherent bonus to an ability score. Two to five wish spells cast in immediate succession can grant a creature a +2 to +5 inherent bonus to an ability score (two wishes for a +2 inherent bonus, three for a +3 inherent bonus, and so on). Inherent bonuses are instantaneous, so they cannot be dispelled. Note: An inherent bonus may not exceed +5 for a single ability score, and inherent bonuses to a particular ability score do not stack, so only the best one applies.
•Remove injuries and afflictions. A single wish can aid one creature per caster level, and all subjects are cured of the same kind of affliction. For example, you could heal all the damage you and your companions have taken, or remove all poison effects from everyone in the party, but not do both with the same wish. A wish can never restore the experience point loss from casting a spell or the level or Constitution loss from being raised from the dead.
•Revive the dead. A wish can bring a dead creature back to life by duplicating a resurrection spell. A wish can revive a dead creature whose body has been destroyed, but the task takes two wishes, one to recreate the body and another to infuse the body with life again. A wish cannot prevent a character who was brought back to life from losing an experience level.•Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.
•Undo misfortune. A wish can undo a single recent event. The wish forces a reroll of any roll made within the last round (including your last turn). Reality reshapes itself to accommodate the new result. For example, a wish could undo an opponent’s successful save, a foe’s successful critical hit (either the attack roll or the critical roll), a friend’s failed save, and so on. The reroll, however, may be as bad as or worse than the original roll. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.
You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)

[NNescio]

I'll confirm it with my friend who's learning Japanese, but I think it's pronounced like Sue(but with a slight "t" sound)-kee-koh.

If anyone's able to tell me I'm wrong, please do so; I probably am.

It's like the "ts" in "cats". Or for a more familiar loanword from Japanese, "tsunami".

If you can read IPA, it's /tsu͍・ki・ko/ IPA is surprisingly intuitive for Japanese, since most of the vowels tend to be 'pure', similar to Italian.

Bear in mind that there are no long vowels in her name, which you might mistakenly pronounce when you read it as "Sue-kee-koh".

Google Translate can also help pronounce her name. Just paste "つきこ" (without the quotes) into the translate field, let it auto-detect, then click "Listen".

Edit:

Japanese is a syllabic language, and the syllable "tsu" doesn't exist, so it can't be pronounced in japanese without using the katakana or romaaji alphabet.

So, it could be [TU-SUE-KEE-KOH], with a very fast "U", or more probably [SUE-KEE-KOH], as I think most people on the boards pronounce.

EDIT: although I don't understand why you want to pronounce it in japanese...

つ　

☽　



Tsukiko (月子) is a valid Japanese name.

[Doorhandle]

Spoiler

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It appears that out dear friend redcloak has almost gone up enough levels in diabolical mastermind to displace Dr. Doom.

This pleases me. I didn't think he had it in him.

Also, tussiko died a horrible death but I didn't like her all that much anyway.

All in all, Redcloak doesn't micromanage Xykon. He doesn't control Xykon's actions, he cannot command him either. But this doesn't mean he cannot influence Xykon's decisions to suit his own goals.

Although considering how well xyklon manages his own impulses, he might as well be controlling him some of the time.

[Lupy]

I always knew that Redcloak has a reason for not dealing with Tsukiko. This was an extremely satisfying end to her though.

[toughluck]

I'll just copy and paste the comment I did two strips ago:

Hear hear!!! How easily duped she was to believe [link="http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0708.html"]she was creating high-end undead.[/quote] One sufficiently high level cleric would turn or destroy these wights without so much as a blink -- I figure Durkon could mop up the battlefield pretty quickly.

[The Guardian]

Could you cast a point blank fireball while grappled? The only somatic component to it is you have to point where it is going to go off -- but if you DONT CARE where it goes off... range 0... It doesnt matter in what direction you are pointing.

And yes the list of no-somatic spells is exceedingly short.

I've done this, sortof, in a game. Got dropped into a pit with two friends and it was full of... leach-things. Anyway, fireballed straight down at my feet - DM ruled no reflex saves/evasion, and in fact double damage since the size of the pit was far smaller than the size of the fireball.

Luckily I was multiclass with high Con. Took one of the friends down to -9 though, didn't count on the double-damage bit.

As a DM I would rule that the fireball goes where the finger points - sucks if someone has a readied action to grab your arm or something hehe.

[Milcho]

Just rereading the archives cause I wanted to see Tsukiko's arch from start.
Is it me or did her eyes switch?
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0446.html
- Left eye (her left) : light blue
- Right eye (her right) : dark blue

This strip/strips:
- Left eye (her left) : dark blue
- Right eye (her right) : light blue

Given Rich's attention to detail (usually) this almost seems like a deliberate change in colors. Though he makes mistakes like the rest of us...so maybe not.

[Ninja Dragon]

I like how RC keeps his cool all the time. Tsuhiko isn't a worthy opponent for him at all.

Great villains don't take risks like this. They win their battles before they even start.

And this was a very ironic death. Awesome, Giant.

Now, the secret is safe. But Xykon will find out about the phylactery. What will RC do now?

[KoboldRevenge]

When her hand brushed Xykons wouldn't she be paralyzed?

Also Redcloak was all like. " Everything that has transpired has done so according to My design! And now young Tsukiko... you will die."
Be crazy if like Jirix came up behind him and though Reddy into a 280 mile shaft directly into the main reactor.

[toughluck]

No. In 3.0 and 3.5 D&D there is a long and specific list of things that wish can do with NO risk of backfire or twisted wording. The things within those rules working and on how they work are every bit as well covered by the rules as any other spell and no more liable to twisted interpretation than Magic Missile is.

Okay, thanks for the clarification. Unless there are OotS-specific rules, this would work, except:

Revive the dead. A wish can bring a dead creature back to life by duplicating a resurrection spell. A wish can revive a dead creature whose body has been destroyed, but the task takes two wishes, one to recreate the body and another to infuse the body with life again. A wish cannot prevent a character who was brought back to life from losing an experience level.

One potential problem here: Tsukiko's effective level is 0. She would come back to life at level -1. Unless Rich uses signed integers, which would make her insanely high level, she would not be able to come back to life. Redcloak just made her deader than dead. In fact, soul binding would be less effective, since it is not permanent, whereas this removes her from the game completely.
Which brings it back to square one with regards to the spell -- it's a catch-22 situation, since after the first wish, the levels would need to be restored and her body infused with life at the same time. Restoration doesn't work on dead targets, bringing her back to life would fail without her having levels.

[MDR]

My thoughts on the situation.

Fisrt, RC has shown himself to be Evil. Not a misunderstood and mislabeled Chaotic Good, if anybody was silly enough to ever believe that. He could have killed her an several ways, but had the things that she loved the most kill her, slowly and emotionally painfully. There was no 'This is for you, mom.' nor any mental excuses that he was doing it for the greater good of goblins. He had her killed this way because he was Evil, and he hated her.

Second, RC is planning on using the arcane half of the spell as the reason he killed her. I mean, obviously she stole it from Xykon, how else did she get it? Right? And perhaps he happened to find this certain amulet in her room after his fight with her? I bet she was somehow going to use the binding spell intended for the Snarl and the amulet to enslave Xykon. It is Xykon's best interest that she remain dead. <Bluff Check from Hell>

To all the people on the board that has mentioned that RC may not be as powerful as Xykon but he is a better tactician. Well, yes. That has always been Xykon's biggest weakness, even since his originis in SoD. He prefers to blast his way through a problem rather than think his way through. And while he has become better about this, while he has become more cunning, his explanaton of the nature of Power to a hyped-up V still shows some of that. I think Xykon and Tarquin could have a very interesting conversation about what true Power is, and how best to attain it.
Now Xykon is Evil, and genre savvy enough to expect a betrayal by RC. Thus his hedging his bets first in SoD, and lately with Tsukiko. And it's actually this knowledge of how Evil people act that will actually help RC convince him Tsukiko was planning on betraying him.

Now that Tsukiko knows what RC is plannng, I can indeed see her god/gods trying to send her back to warn Xykon. Not sure how though. Some sort of ghost ala Eugene?

I agree with those that have said the old hobgoblin was a blacksmith or jeweler of some sort, there to make a fake amulet. I bet it was already feat acomplished though, and Tsukiko killing him was as much a relief as the goblin spy's death was. Better she do it that RC himself being forced to.

That is all I can think of right now. :)

Edit : Just thought of something else. RC's attitude against Undead. I'm sure his attitude is how he convinced himself to get over certain actions in SoD. Plus, after 30 years of dealing with Xykon, he has to have some prejudices against them.

[Aaron]

Well I'm impressed with Redcloak. He killed Tusuko AND kept his hands clean at the same time. After all, technically the wights killed her.

[Gift Jeraff]

Just rereading the archives cause I wanted to see Tsukiko's arch from start.
Is it me or did her eyes switch?
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0446.html
- Left eye (her left) : light blue
- Right eye (her right) : dark blue

This strip/strips:
- Left eye (her left) : dark blue
- Right eye (her right) : light blue

Given Rich's attention to detail (usually) this almost seems like a deliberate change in colors. Though he makes mistakes like the rest of us...so maybe not.

It's usually left = dark and right = light, but there are a few panels/strips where it switches. I know he has messed up Elan's sash in the past (one of the reasons he got a new outfit), but I also think he's kept O-Chul's scars consistent, so I dunno.

[Kobold-Bard]

Well I'm impressed with Redcloak. He killed Tusuko AND kept his hands clean at the same time. After all, technically the wights killed her.

In a world were compulsion magic exists I doubt that sort of excuse will fly.

[SoC175]

Amazing update.

Couple thoughts about Tsukiko's Wisdom score.

First, I don't believe the Wisdom ability score actually covers things like insight into the true nature of other creature types, or the long term consequences of your social interactions. The rules state that Wisdom covers "willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition" (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#abilityScores). None of those things sound like they cover the sort of long term deep insights Tsukiko was so lacking in.

Actually yes, it does. That's why it's the key skill for Insight

[Julian84]

...

Speechless.

[Shua]

I haven't posted anything in something like 4 plus years. I'm posting now because this has been the best strip since Zxykon faced the Sapphire guard.

WELL DONE!

[Subzero008]

I'm reminded of Granny Weatherwax's observation that all sin starts with treating people as things. That's how Tsukiko would assess what Redcloak just did to her and her creations.

Her death may be appropriate to her actions, but her last words are very sad. Naive, sure, even foolish, but it's still heart-breaking to see her betrayed by those she thought she loved, those she believed could love her back if only she took good care of them. Then it turns out that they'll kill her and themselves without a second thought or shred of remorse. Redcloak didn't pull a single punch here.

What really gets me is that the entire time we're treated to her final words, the panels stay fixed on Redcloak's reaction. All the gloating and anger are passed, and that's not his usual expression of annoyance. It's more like the expression he had on his face when he tried to reassure his reflection it will all be worth it. He doubtless still believes these actions necessary (and for what he wants, it's difficult to find an alternative now), but he's not reacting well to what she's saying. Not surprising, seeing as he just ordered someone killed by those she saw as family. That's got to be way too familiar to him.

I think he relates way too well to the wights here: as betrayers with no choice (as he sees it), and as dangerous tools that will have to be destroyed once their work is done. Maybe he's realizing that he's done none of this for love of his family or people? Probably not.

That was a powerful scene. I'm a bit worried about where things go next. Redcloak has a history of underestimating Xykon in critical moments. It's time to see how well he's learned from that.

Seconded. It's a bit annoying to see people think that RC's all smug about her death.