[WIP, PEACH] Thyressa: An American Campaign Setting

[Roxxy]

Thyressa



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Themes and Inspiration

American History, Culture, and Folklore A lot of campaign settings borrow a lot from Europe or, sometimes, Asia. For this setting, I want to borrow from North America instead. This includes both Native American and Colonial (from early Colonial times to the modern day) themes. This is very much an American campaign setting when it comes down to where all the inspiration comes from and what the flavor is intended to be, because I want to mix my favorite medieval magitech themes together with American history and culture.

Eberron and Iron Kingdoms The basic idea is to take my favorite elements of these two settings, and bring them into a world that looks like North America.

Magitech I plan for a magitech setting, sort of like Eberron but with enough magitech to cause mechanization of agriculture and urbanization. This magitech is powered by steam power, which is generated by boiling alchemical fluids.

Industrial, Scientific, and Arcane Revolution At the moment, this setting is caught in the middle of one.

Dark Fey For the most part in this campaign setting, the fey are not friendly. They were originally created as more powerful variants of humans by a faction of rogue gods, and were intended to replace them as the dominant race. They are powerful and twisted, and most are all too willing to kill and enslave humans. Even the few members of the Seelie Court, who aren't actively hostile to humanity, aren't very friendly at all. This isn't to say that the members of the Seelie Court won't do nice things for humans, it's to say that it isn't out of altruism or inherent goodness. For the most part, humanity and fey are at war with each other.

Everyone is Human Fantasy races like elves and dwarves exist, but they are versions of humanity, not seperate races. Furthermore, multiracial nations are very common. All the human races have about the same chance of interbreeding.

Chivalry is Dying Feudalism and it's trappings are still around, but are fast dying out due to the effects of magitech. Private companies are quickly becoming the new foundation of the economy in the place of landed gentry. That's not to say things like knightly orders don't exist, but they aren't what they used to be.

Industrialized Warfare With steam powered vehicles, mass production, and a large amount of magic available to military forces, war looks a lot like it did in, say, a mixture of the second half of the 19th century and WW1.

The Gods Are Neutral They all have both good and evil aspects and worshippers, and prefer to let their followers handle things. There are only a few direct interventions by the gods in written history, and they all involve rather major things. They also cannot take away divine powers once given due to divine law, though internal emotions can corrupt divine power, changing the nature of a divine caster's spells and abilities. Also, each ethnic group has it's own pantheon, and all these deities actually exist in the world.

Build For Horror, Dark Fantasy, Mystery, and High Adventure I'm in the mood for different things at different times, and this campaign setting should be able to handle high octane fantasy adventures (the classic action movie style games, basically), dark and gritty stories, criminal investigations, and horror tales. I see no reason for the setting not to be able to handle all of these things or combinations of them.

The system this is designed for is Pathfinder, but it should be able to be used with 3.5. Not sure about 4E, as I never played it.

[Roxxy]

Racial History

The history of humans in Thyressa begins tens of thousands of years ago, when the gods were bequeathed rulership of the world by whatever mysterious forces created it. They decided to populate it with living creatures, and so they created the dragons. They wanted more creatures, however, so they experimented time and time again, making hundreds of different life forms, none of which was quite what they wanted to rule the world. Then they created the humans, who were the best creatures yet. They were left to grow and develop on their own, with the gods watching and not interfering unless necessary. Over thousands of years, the only direct intervention was when they made males and females equal after gender disparity caused unintended consequences. It was eventually decided that men should have women's stronger perceptive and empathetic abilities and women stronger muscle to compensate for their lack of muscle in order to forstall the rampant male dominance. Things were good for awhile, aside from a couple bumps like the creation of the Divni, until a rogue faction among the gods decided that the humans could be a bit better.

So the fey were created, like humans but shaped and, in many cases, twisted by vast magical power. Most of the gods were displeased by this, as they saw the existence of the fey as a threat to the humans. They decided that someone needed to protect the humans from the fey, and chose one of the races of humans, the Elves, as the people to do it. They gave Elves access to a great deal of arcane power, so that they could rule over and protect the other human races. This arcane power allowed Elves to cast spells far faster and with fewer components than the other races, making them the strongest humans around.

The Elves, however, abused this power. Though they did keep the fey from dominating the humans, the Elves dominated other humans themselves. Only the Dwarves, who were able to defend their isolated communities with skillfull defensive architecture and constant military training, escaped Elven tyranny. Elves gaurded their arcane power jealously, claiming that their arcane secrets were handed down by the gods and that any other human race that used arcane magic was getting their knowledge from evil powers. Elven rule was brutal and totalitarian, even though it did keep the fey at bay.

This order existed for over five hundred years, until the gods finally got tired of it about 150 years ago, and decided that the Elves needed to lose their dominance. Therefore, they revealed the arcane secrets they had given the Elves to all of the other human races, so that everybody could be equally powerful. Once this happened, the Elven order collapsed, with the other humans tearing their order down violently.

Races

In Thyressa, there are three races of humans created by the gods: Magni, Elves, and Dwarves. There are also the Divni, a human race created by the dragons, the Wildkin, a human race created by the fey, and changelings, planetouched, and hybrids, all of which are variants of humans but not their own races. All humans share a similar life span, being considered adults at 18 and reaching the end of their natural lives at around 120 years old.

Magni

The Magni are a race of humans known for the way they differ from each other so much. Elves, and Dwarves have basic roles outlooks on life, albeight with plenty of deviations from these norms. Magni, however, tend to differ a great deal from each other. This is generally thought to be do to the fact that there are many more Magni than any other human race.

Personality

Magni, unlike other races, have no real unified outlook on life, and their personalities vary greatly. What does unify them is a view of them being the average human.

Appearance

Magni are, on average, between 5'3" and 6', though they have more variation from this norm than other humans. They possess rounded ears, red, blond, brown, black, or white hair and brown, green, grey, blue, or black eyes, with a large variety of possible body types.

Relations

Historically, Magni have seen Elves as oppressors, but with the end of Elven domination this has changed, and most Magni either are willing to accept that the Elves are no longer enemies or unwilling to trust them lest they try to conquer everyone again. Dwarves are seen as excellent builders, and their services are much valued among those Magni that can afford them. Changelings are usually viewed with a degree of pity, and Wildkin with mistrust and suspicion. Divni are seen mostly with a level of tolerance. Hybrids and Planetouched can be seen with a wide level of opinions, depending on their ancestry.

Lands

Magni live in the majority of the world's environments, being a very adaptable and widespread people. They mostly live in small nations or city states, ruled by either elected or hereditary officials. They have historically had a feudal culture, but in the modern day it is losing a great deal of traction in favor of popular rule and corporations.

Elves

Elves are a race of humans who are known for their aristocratic and skill with arcane magic. Nowadays they share power with Magni, but in the past they ruled over other them as dictators chosen by the gods themselves.

Personality

Elves are generally seen as an aristocratic race, which has to do with their history as the world's dominant humans. They have a love of magic, scholarship, art, architecture, natural beauty, and the finer things in life, and a respect for authority, tending to defer to those of higher rank.

Physical Description

Elves are, on average, between 5' and 5'6" tall, with pointed ears about 3 inches long that rotate in response to their emotions. They tend to have slender, graceful builds, with hair in bright colors, such as reds, blues, greens, purples, yellows, and so on, or black or white hair. They only posses hair on their scalps and pubic regions. Their eye colors are in the same range as their hair colors, and it is more common to have different hair and eye colors than for both to be the same color. About one in three Elves has a form of heterochromia, usually either complete or central, and it generally isn't a signifier of any medical problems.

Relations

Elves are a race haunted by their dictatorial past. They do their best to distance themselves from this past out of shame, treating the races they once dominated, in particular Magni, with respect to prove that they aren't still the tyrants they once were. Aside from those individuals unwilling to trust them after everything that happened, and some minority groups of Elves who refuse to let go of the power they once had, the Elves generally have good relations with all of the other human races do their almost obsessive efforts to form such relations.

Lands

Elves mostly live in the same communities as Magni, having historically ruled over them. They have a special love of rural communities with plenty of access to unspoiled nature and high end urban areas, but they can be found pretty much anywhere where Magni and other human races, aside from Dwarves, live.

Dwarves

Dwarves are a race of humans known for their technological and archeological skill and the fact that they are the only human race that prefers to isolae their communities from those of other races.

Personality

Dwarves are a determined and hard working race, with a great deal of ingenuity. They are often architects, scientists, inventors, and builders, and place a great amount of importance on family and ancestry. They tend to respect education and professionalism a great deal. They prefer to have leaders with a large amount of power to act but with a watch on their power, being especially fond of constitutional monarchy.

Physical Description

Dwarves stand, on average, about 4'9" to 5'3", with a somewhat solid build. They take much pride in their appearance and hygene, being a rather clean race. They tend to prefer long hair, and, if male, beards, often braided, but this is not universal. They tend to have hair in earthy colors, such as browns, greens, and autumn yellows, reds, and oranges, or hair in metallic or gemstone colors. Their range of eye colors is about the same, with having hair and eyes of the same color being about as common as hair being a different color than the eyes.

Relations

Dwarves are generally neutral in regards to other human races. They are willing to trade and make agreements with them, but they prefer to remain politically seperate. Dwarves like to handle their own business, and expect other human races to respect this desire. They tolerate members of other human races being present in their cities, so long as they obey Dwarven law, but their communities are generally fairly isolated from other humans, politically if not geographically.

Lands

Dwarves live in many different environments. They prefer those that involve architectual challenges, with four main ethnic groups existing. Mountain dwarves tend to live in cities carved from the surfaces of cliffs and mountains. Cave dwarves live in cities located in caves and caverns deep underground, tree dwarves live in cities suspended from hundreds of tall trees in forests and jungles, and sea dwarves live in giant city ships that can support entire communities. These are just the largest ethnic groups, with others also existing in other environments that support their love of architectual challenges.

Divni

Divni are a race of humans created not by the gods, but by the dragons. The dragons were angry at the gods for abandoning them as the dominant race of the world and eventually, out of hubris, decided to create their own race of humans, using the Elves as a baseline.

Personality

The Divni are a young race, with only about six hundred years of history. This colors their personality, and tend to be very curious about pretty much everything. They don't have much of a unified culture, being chaotic and freedom loving, as resentful of being dominated by others.

Physical Description

Divni have the same height, body shape, and hair and eyes as Elves. They are covered with a layer of scales so thin that they are only obvious from a few feet away or closer. Their scales generally have the same coloration range as their hair and eyes, and most Divni have at least three scale colors, if not more. Their coloration usually forms patterns, such as stripes, spots, rosettes, and the like.

Relations

Having been granted the same arcane secrets that the Elves had by the dragons, and having been built with the Elves as a blueprint, they were very much resented by the Elves during the days of Elven dominance. The Elves weren't outright hostile do to the Divni's equal power, and tolerated them living in their communities as allies against the fey, but they always kept an eye on them, especially considering their chaotic nature. Divni are very curious, and react to other human races with a keen interest in them and their behavior. For the most part, they are accepted by other human races as being generally non-threatening to their ways of life.

Lands

The Divni can be found where Magni and Elves can be found, preferring much the same environments as Elves do.

Wildkin

Wildkin are a race of humans created by the fey and inspired by the creation of the Divni. They were intended as a weapon against the humans, but decided that they would rather not be slaves to the fey, and refused to serve them.

Personality

Wildkin are a strong, brave, and independant people. They revel in their freedom, and resist any attempt by the fey to take it away. As a result, they are very much a warrior race, seeing it necessary to protect their freedom from the fey by armed resistance. War is a central part of their lives do to their resistance against the fey, and almost every Wildkin knows how to use a weapon or cast a spell.

Physical Appearance

Wildkin are, on average, between 5' and 5'6", and have the same variety of possible body types as Magni. They possess pointed ears about 6 inches long and rather wide and covered with fur, and long tails covered with fur. Some have slender, smooth tails, others bushy tails. Other than this fur and the hair on their scalp and pubic area they have no body hair. Their hair and eyes usually mimic tones present in domestic or wild dog or cat species, and their skin often has coloration that does the same.

Relations

The Wildkin loathe their fey creators, seeing them as cruel manipulators who wish to enslave them. They would gladly support other humans against the fey, but their fey heritage makes them generally mistrusted. A great many move to settlements of other human races to try and prove themselves trustworthy, and are generally met with suspicion, if not outright hate. Humanity is at war with the fey, and to many the Wildkin represent this enemy.

Lands

Wildkin usually either live in the settlements of other humans or form their own settlements, usually in the wilderness and heavily defended.

Changelings

Changelings are humans who were kidnapped by the fey for service as slaves but later escaped. They possess a small measure of fey power from their time in slavery.

Personality

The personality of a Changeling is largely dependent on what human race they belonged to before they were kidnapped and how old they were. Most Changelings are kidnapped during the first 12 years of life. They very often have mental scars from their ordeal, but what they are depends on the individual and the type and duration of slavery.

Physical Appearance

Changelings generally look like members of whatever human race they were before being kidnapped, though some have a sense of otherworldliness about them

Relations

Changeling race relations depend a lot on what race they used to be, though many see them with a degree of pity.

Lands

After escaping, Changelings generally live wherever they can get by, return home, or seek out a new home. It all depends on the individual, and they can be found pretty much anywhere.

Planetouched and Hybrids

Planetouched are humans with a degree of ancestry from creatures of other places, such as angels, demons, and elementals, and Hybrids are humans born from the union of more than one human race.

Personality

Personality of Planetouched is largely determined by what their human race is, though the creature they are descended from can also matter somewhat. A person with devil blood may be very different from someone of protean blood. The personality of a hybrid is largely dependant on the races the individual is descended from.

Physical Appearance

Planetouched look like their human race, but very often show evidence of their planar heritage in the form of unique physical features. Hybrids generally look like a blend of their parent races, though which race is more evident depends on the individual.

Relations

For Planetouched, this is largely determined by the human race and type of planar ancestor. With Hybrids, it depends on the parent races.

Lands

For both Planetouched and Hybrids this is largely dependant on race.

[Roxxy]

I'll have available technology and basics of how people live up soon. Once that's done, I can start on the nations.

[Roxxy]

Arcane Magic

Up until around 150 years ago, elves and divni were the only people who could cast arcane magic quickly and reliably. This changed with the granting of arcane knowledge to all of the human races, leading to an explosion in the study of the arcane arts. Nowadays arcane magic is fairly common and popular, and humans are constantly discovering new ways to use it, leading to a form of industrial revolution in Thyressa. The preponderance of arcane magic has also led to signifigant advances in the fields of science and technology, as arcane magic is able to assist these disciplines.

Religion

There are hundreds of major deities in Thyressa, with most large ethnic groups having their own panteon. There are also too many thousands of demigods to count. The major deities all tend towards neutrality, possessing both good and evil aspects and followers. Though the existance of the gods is well known, they tend not to intervene directly in mortal affairs, preferring to allow their followers to do so. Most people pay the gods of their ethnicity respect and homage, though some are more pious than others. The gods can grant mortals divine power, though they cannot take this power away once it is given due to divine law. Divine power can, however, be molded and transformed by an individual's emotional state.

Energy

Steam power is the dominant form of energy in Thyressa, and is generated by boiling alchemical potions. Alchemy is also commonly used to create synthetic fuels, which are highly popular for use in heating, lighting, cooking, and the like, and very widely available.

Production

The aid of magic means that a great many items, including weapons, armor, clothing, household items and minor magic items, are mass produced. This means that such items are widely available. Any magic item that costs less than 500 GP can be assumed to be mass produced by one company or another.

Transportation

For the average citizen, steam trains are the transportation of choice to cover large distances. Railroads link the vast majority of major settlements, and tickets are fairly cheap unless one wants first class treatment. Within urban areas, trams are the transportion of choice. For more rural areas and many military and law enforcement applications, horses and horse drawn vehicles are the choice of transportation, though experimental steam horses and similar devices are being tested as possible replacements for working animals. These are not commercially available, and likely will not be for some time, as there are many design issues that need to be worked out.

Airships and water ships are both widely used, and both are usually steam powered aside from dwarven city ships, which use sail power to conserve energy with steam engines as emergency backups. Water ships can carry a great deal more cargo and people than an airship and have much more staying power in a battle, but airships have the advantage of much greater speed and the ability to fly over difficult terrain.

Food

Thanks to preservation technology, such as cannery, dessication, and a couple of magical methods such as freezing, food lasts a long time in Thyressa. This means that it can be transported over long distances and still remain fresh. Combined with alchemical fertilizers and new innovations in mechanical harvesters, this has made all sorts of foods widely available year round. Most people eat a varied diet, and people generally get enough food unless they are very poor.

Communication

Cameras exist in Thyressa, but the quality mostly depends on what sort of plate is being used. Nonmagical plates produce a gritty sepia image, while alchemical plates, depending on quality, can produce a sharp, full color image. These high quality plates can be rather pricey, however.

Telephones exist, using magic to allow sound to be transmitted along a wire. These are very popular, and most people can afford the monthly service fees to have the spells that make them work renewed. Portable cordless variants also exist, though they do cost a bit more since they operate without the wire. A similar piece of technology, which comes in the shape of a large box that shows both pictures and sound instead of just sound and is, has just been invented, though this is currently mostly the plaything of the wealthy, not the average person.

Medicine

Medical technology in Thyressa is fairly advanced, with the necessary anatomical knowledge and tools to perform high risk surgery being fairly common and both chemical and alchemical methods of fighting infections available. Severely injured people can very often be saved by surgery, and when they can't magical healing may be available from the local divine spellcasters or a witch. A wide variety of medications are also available to control disease and heal physical and mental ailments, though not all of them are completely effective. Psychiatry and psychology are also well known fields, though certainly not perfect. The importance of sanitation for maintaining health and preventing disease is known, and people in Thyressa generally try to remain somewhat clean. The existance of running water and internal plumbing provided by spells, which cost a monthly fee for renewal, but are possessed in all but the poorest or most rural homes, assists this, as do public health organizations that enforce laws governing urban sanitation.

Education

In most of Thyressa's wealthier countries, free public education exists for the vast majority of citizens during childhood. This is also true in many areas of poorer countries, but not always. Universities generally aren't free, but scholarships my be available. Literacy is virtually universal except in a few extremely poor areas.

Weapons

Thyressa has yet to develop gunpowder, and relies upon medieval weaponry. Magical weapons are, however, very common, as is magical artillery ammunition and aeriel bombs that is usually incendiary, explosive, or both, which is incredibly common in warfare.

Other Details

More people live in urban areas than rural areas, though the exact percentage differs by area, and service, manufacturing, and entertainment jobs employ more people than military, law enforcement, or agriculture do. Most individuals are middle class, not poor or wealthy. Most wealthy individuals are buiness owners, not nobility. The castle has fallen out of favor with the rise of urbanization and the decline of feudalism, though fortresses built along the same lines as castles, albeight with extensive anti-air defenses, are very common military installations.

[Roxxy]

Any opinion on what I have so far?

I'll have the first country of the setting, the Kingdom of Leontiny, up soon, hopefully tomorrow but maybe not until Monday or Tuesday.

[Grinner]

Looked it over briefly. The presence of changelings is a little jarring considering the nature of the setting, but it does have potential. Overall, it's a good start, but it could easily swing into something quite the opposite. How it turns out is entirely dependent upon how you flesh it out.

As an aside, I do feel that the presence of magic is disrupting the Victorian elements, since it tends to throw the idea of technological progress out the window. Then again, I am a fan of steampunk.

[Roxxy]

Looked it over briefly. The presence of changelings is a little jarring considering the nature of the setting, but it does have potential. Overall, it's a good start, but it could easily swing into something quite the opposite. How it turns out is entirely dependent upon how you flesh it out.

As an aside, I do feel that the presence of magic is disrupting the Victorian elements, since it tends to throw the idea of technological progress out the window. Then again, I am a fan of steampunk.

It's not really meant to be Victorian at all. It's much more Eberron or Iron Kingdoms-like. The idea is to take the best elements of Iron Kingdoms and the best of Eberron, and put them in a setting that borrows chiefly from American history, culture, and folklore instead of European and Asian folklore as is more typical of D&D, though colonialism and immigration means there is a lot of European and Asian stuff in the setting. Steampunk may not have been the best word to use.

[Grinner]

I guess it should be asked: Are you choosing from any distinct period of American history?

[Roxxy]

I guess it should be asked: Are you choosing from any distinct period of American history?

The setting itself has the most similarity with the Industrial Age, and I am borrowing the most stuff from that period by far, but I am also taking a few things from the modern day.

[Roxxy]

It'll be a little while before the first nation is up.

I'll be adding a bit more information to the races soon. I will also be adding mechanics to them, though that may not be until after the first nation is up.

I will be changing the Magni. This setting will not have a "catch all race".

I will be adding some information about fey, including Seelie, Unseelie, orcs, and ogres.

I will be adding some information about why people came to the continent of Thyressa from across the seas.

Also, I will be inventing some nations that are based on what I think would have been cool to have happened in American history. Case in point, a strong country based off of what could have happened with Vinland and some "Asian" colonization in the West.



Also, though this is and will remain a Pathfinder setting with 3.5 capability, I am considering adding in support for the Exalted system.

[Omeganaut]

I'm going to talk about your races here first, even though I saw you have a different thread up for them. I think your races are generally good, although since every other race has their specialty, the Magni do stand out. Perhaps you should pitch your Magni as entrapenuers, having and adventurous spirit, and always wanted to try to succeed at something new, which is why they are becoming such successful practitioners of Arcane magics. They also have created much of the less practical technological innovations in the world, with the Dwarves producing most of the sensible. Just a few thoughts...

Also, you need to better define divine magic. You have a good start, but you have done a lot with arcane magic, and you need to explain why the other races didn't just use divine magic to overthrow the elves.

[Roxxy]

I'm going to talk about your races here first, even though I saw you have a different thread up for them. I think your races are generally good, although since every other race has their specialty, the Magni do stand out. Perhaps you should pitch your Magni as entrapenuers, having and adventurous spirit, and always wanted to try to succeed at something new, which is why they are becoming such successful practitioners of Arcane magics. They also have created much of the less practical technological innovations in the world, with the Dwarves producing most of the sensible. Just a few thoughts...

Good idea. I'm also thinking of removing the Magni status as most populous human race and cooling off on the Wildkin racism. I may also add a bit more info for the races.

Also, you need to better define divine magic. You have a good start, but you have done a lot with arcane magic, and you need to explain why the other races didn't just use divine magic to overthrow the elves.

Well, I don't actually want there to be any difference between arcane and divine magic in the setting. That's why it's so poorly defined. I just don't see much I'm interesting in doing with it. It'd be too complicated to merge it with arcane magic, however, so I have to keep it around.

However, the reason the elves were so powerful is because the gods wanted them to be. That could explain a greater number of elven divine casters. If elves were once the favored of the gods, would the gods not give more elves divine power than anyone else? If there are more divine elves than divine magni or anyone else, the elves don't get overthrown.

[Omeganaut]

That explanation works, although you should probably do something mechanically to combine arcane and divine casting, like maybe abolish the separation between the two.

Also, there is another American Homebrew world going on in case you want to compare and contrast. I'll leave this link here

[Zap Dynamic]

Hey! I'm heading up the other project based on American myths. The first piece of advice I'll give you is the first piece of advice given to me: find yourself a good team of people that are willing to help you. Check out some of the other threads in this section of the boards and send a couple PMs to the people who are active, and you'll probably find a handful that would be willing to chip in.

I'll be honest with you: I'm not getting an "American" vibe from this. I see that there are some modern conveniences like cameras and telephones, and I see that it is an urban-centric continent. I also see that the history of the races goes back a long time, I haven't seen anything that indicates the continent's inhabitants immigrated to this place, and the races don't seem all that "American," (case in point, both elves and dwarves come from Norse mythology). Additionally, you said that there's a lot of steampunk/magitek going on, which has a lot of modern/American potential, but everyone relies on medieval weaponry, and America wasn't settled until well after the development of firearms.

I guess my opening question for you is this: which parts of the setting are inspired by America?

On the other hand, I really like that you're "twisting" elements of American history, like the presence of Vinland and an Asian culture in the West. Do you mind if I borrow that?

[Roxxy]

Go ahead and borrow what you want.

I know this doesn't seem American. It's because the American influence is mostly in the nations that exist and the geography, not in the races or the reason the races immigrated, and certainly not in the way the Fey are portrayed. At the point of completion this is at, I haven't added any of the stuff I'm borrowing from America yet. I also am twisting some of the history. Just because the nations look like IRL American regions quite a bit doesn't mean the history is 100% the same. For example, the "Wild West" exists for very different reasons than the IRL one existed. I'm borrowing from American history, mythology, and culture for flavor, not to replicate it.

I am debating adding firearms.

[The Anarresti]

Check out my post on a similar topic in the other, similar thread here

And if you like, I could really pitch in and help out. As a devote of American history I'd love to do something like this. I'm even debating making one myself now that the other two have got my creative juices flowing. I would make one myself, but I don't really think the sub-forum really needs three threads on an American setting.