OOTS #850 - The Discussion Thread

[Kish]

Since Tarquin is Genre Savvy,
- What if he use magic or things to hide his Human sense?

...What's a Human sense?

You know, Tarquin - or anybody else - can be intelligent without it being "genre savvy".

I'm actually not sure he's particularly intelligent at all apart from his genre savviness. His entire attitude toward Elan is based on his perception of Elan as a protagonist who will one day clash with him; he told Nale that the villains would swoop in to seize the Gate at the last minute because that's what happens in stories. Etc, etc.

Ok, my bad. Eight hundred and thirty eight strips ago, instead of a *ding*, they explicitly said it out loud. You got me.

Now if you'd like to concede that most of the Order's level-ups have been offpanel...

[Collen]

not-thog is battling the order of the stick, not thog. not-thog is not-nale and nale's father, and thog is not not-nale and nale's father. if not-thog was thog, not-not-thog would say 'thog smash' instead of 'thog smashes', but not-thog does not know not-not-thog's grammar by heart because he spent lots of time around not-nale and not nale. not-not-thog does not stick with not-nale and instead sticks with nale, who not-thog just allied himself with, but not thog. now not-thog will nail not-nale, not nale.

[ti'esar]

...What's a Human sense?

One of Man-Spider's superpowers, I think.

I'm actually not sure he's particularly intelligent at all apart from his genre savviness. His entire attitude toward Elan is based on his perception of Elan as a protagonist who will one day clash with him; he told Nale that the villains would swoop in to seize the Gate at the last minute because that's what happens in stories. Etc, etc.

That's true, but Tarquin's still been running his behind-the-scenes empire scheme for years, among other things. If anything, I'd say it's his genre savvy that's in question more than his intelligence (he's almost certainly not as smart as he thinks, but that really isn't saying much).

[Bulldog Psion]

...What's a Human sense?

From the context, I'm reasonably certain that it is a typo for "human scent".

[MeanMrsMustard]

not-thog is battling the order of the stick, not thog. not-thog is not-nale and nale's father, and thog is not not-nale and nale's father. if not-thog was thog, not-not-thog would say 'thog smash' instead of 'thog smashes', but not-thog does not know not-not-thog's grammar by heart because he spent lots of time around not-nale and not nale. not-not-thog does not stick with not-nale and instead sticks with nale, who not-thog just allied himself with, but not thog. now not-thog will nail not-nale, not nale.

...
Where is your "give an Internet" button? Because you need one. Badly.

[t209]

From the context, I'm reasonably certain that it is a typo for "human scent".

Yes! Human scent as in smell. What I mean by Genre savviness is that he knew about Halfling's sense motive (but I don't know about Halfling bonus to scent sense check).

[Thagorn]

Should have worn off, then. Whatever. Maybe he recasted it. Maybe we're functioning on story time rather than game time. And yeah, I didn't reread the spell text to see that ordinary concealment/etc is not penetrated.

Your timeline is fine you just have forgotten the details of 848. Roy explicitly tells Durkon to keep True Seeing up.

[FujinAkari]

You mean Class and Level Geekery AGREES with me. It has Belkar at level 16, and absolutely every other member of the order at less than that, including Durkon CONFIRMED to be no higher than 15 more recently than his last combat.

That is largely because, for most characters, even levels are indistinguishable. You get new spells at odd levels and new spell levels are largely the firm indicator of having levelled up. With the order confirmed of having hit level 15 waaaaaaaay back before they even reached the western continent, it is silly to think they haven't leveled since.

Furthermore, you are abandoning logic and simply assuming that no one ever levels unless someone can prove it to you. The C&LG thread also still has Durkon at level 13, are you assuming he has just doggedly refused to level during all this time?

No, typically parties are roughly the same level. If Belkar is level 16 going into the LG fight (which we know he is, at least) then the rest of the Order except Roy should be 16 as well. That is simply the way D&D works... unless there is something indicating that a party of adventurers isn't equivalently leveled, you should assume that they are.

As for Belkar's "trial", he fought a level 1 commoner which Mr. Scruffy killed and then largely played spectator. And you claim that it violates common sense for this to have NOT leveled Belkar from 16 to 17? Really?

See, in D&D you don't get xp just for killing things. You get XP for avoiding or overcoming challenges without directly instigating combat, such as by releasing dinosaurs in order to defeat guards for you. You get XP for achieving plot or character related goals, such has having what damn well might be the first moment of caring for another living creature in your entire bloody life, and you get story xp when your party achieves a story goal, such as surviving an encounter with your recurring nemesis and securing the means to the next story arc.

If the order had level 9 spells we'd know it.

How exactly? They haven't been in combat since the end of the LG fight until -right now.-

there is in fact 0.000 evidence that ahyone else is level 17 other than your delusion that Belkar MUST have leveled from the gladiator arc

You realize that simply stating it doesn't make it true. Also the phrase "0.000 evidence" doesn't actually mean anything.

[Math_Mage]

That is largely because, for most characters, even levels are indistinguishable. You get new spells at odd levels and new spell levels are largely the firm indicator of having levelled up. With the order confirmed of having hit level 15 waaaaaaaay back before they even reached the western continent, it is silly to think they haven't leveled since.

The members of the Order are not necessarily the same level ever since the party split. In fact, they are almost certainly not the same level. Consider that Roy gained no levels during the events of DStP, and in fact lost a level upon resurrection. Meanwhile, every other member of the party was engaged in significant XP-gaining activity. Moreover, they weren't necessarily engaged in the same AMOUNT of XP-gaining activity.

Furthermore, you are abandoning logic and simply assuming that no one ever levels unless someone can prove it to you. The C&LG thread also still has Durkon at level 13, are you assuming he has just doggedly refused to level during all this time?

As to your contention that the Order is level 17, this is not the case. You malign the C&LG thread by assuming it has no way to analyze upper bounds for levels. Durkon, for example, could not have been more than level 15 as of comic 809, and certainly has not had enough experience to level twice since then. Roy could not have been level 16 before the fight with Thog, hence he is not level 17. Elan has not gained three levels since comic 647.

See, in D&D you don't get xp just for killing things. You get XP for avoiding or overcoming challenges without directly instigating combat, such as by releasing dinosaurs in order to defeat guards for you. You get XP for achieving plot or character related goals, such has having what damn well might be the first moment of caring for another living creature in your entire bloody life, and you get story xp when your party achieves a story goal, such as surviving an encounter with your recurring nemesis and securing the means to the next story arc.

If you believe that the party is approximately equally leveled, you CANNOT believe that Belkar leveled to 17 off of feeding Mr. Scruffy some milk. And he deliberately avoided LG round 3, so he doesn't get XP for the party objective.

[zimmerwald1915]

That is largely because, for most characters, even levels are indistinguishable. You get new spells at odd levels and new spell levels are largely the firm indicator of having levelled up. With the order confirmed of having hit level 15 waaaaaaaay back before they even reached the western continent, it is silly to think they haven't leveled since.

That's not quite true. The only Order member confirmed to have hit level 15 before setting foot on the Western Continent was Haley. Since she and Belkar were not traveling with the rest of the Order at the time, and since the Order did not meet up again until shortly before the end of Don't Split the Party, we can assume nothing about their collective level from her reaching level 15 alone.

Furthermore, you are abandoning logic and simply assuming that no one ever levels unless someone can prove it to you. The C&LG thread also still has Durkon at level 13, are you assuming he has just doggedly refused to level during all this time?

No, typically parties are roughly the same level. If Belkar is level 16 going into the LG fight (which we know he is, at least) then the rest of the Order except Roy should be 16 as well. That is simply the way D&D works... unless there is something indicating that a party of adventurers isn't equivalently leveled, you should assume that they are.

See, in D&D you don't get xp just for killing things. You get XP for avoiding or overcoming challenges without directly instigating combat, such as by releasing dinosaurs in order to defeat guards for you. You get XP for achieving plot or character related goals, such has having what damn well might be the first moment of caring for another living creature in your entire bloody life, and you get story xp when your party achieves a story goal, such as surviving an encounter with your recurring nemesis and securing the means to the next story arc.

Here's the tricky bit. Durkon and Elan typically engaged in more encounters - finding solutions to which are what get XP in D&D - than Vaarsuvius the entire time they were with the fleet. Vaarsuvius spent most of that time researching new spells, a process that tends to cost rather than gain a character XP. It was, moreover, a process that was ultimately unsuccessful in achieving her character goals. However, Vaarsuvius demonstrated the capabilities of a level 14 Wizard (according to the number of spells she cast) during the fight with the Devil of Unusual Size, and Elan did not level to 14 (Bard 13/DS 1) until the day before he and Durkon reunited with Haley and Vaarsuvius, several days later. This despite Elan's engaging in a romantic subplot with a clear resolution and protecting his charge from a somewhat compelling villan. Clearly there's no real relationship between when a character levels and when another character levels. Or Vaarsuvius has some way of gaining XP unknown to the rest of the characters in the comic, but that doesn't jive with her portrayal in OtOoPCs.

How exactly? They haven't been in combat since the end of the LG fight until -right now.-

It's been a little over two days between the end of the last LG fight and now. It's been a little under a week since V first demonstrated the capability to cast level 8 spells (in the fight with Ganjii and Enor - she hasn't cast a level 8 spell since). Durkon's been spending his time and effort learning to cast a level 7 spell. Somehow I doubt V and Durkon have level 9 spells available.

You realize that simply stating it doesn't make it true. Also the phrase "0.000 evidence" doesn't actually mean anything.

"0.000" is just another way of saying "zero", really. And "zero evidence" is a perfectly legitimate way to describe the basis of your argument

[Kish]

Yes! Human scent as in smell. What I mean by Genre savviness is that he knew about Halfling's sense motive (but I don't know about Halfling bonus to scent sense check).

He knew what about Belkar's (nonexistent) Sense Motive, and it has what to do with genre savviness?

[Kaulguard]

Now if you'd like to concede that most of the Order's level-ups have been offpanel...

I don't concede anything of the sort, though I will admit that the ding is not an absolute. However, the level ups are referred to explicitly, which was my point. Despite the work that has gone into C&LG, I think they are off, and in the case of Belkar, they are WAY off. They demonstrate no evidence of three levels, and base the assumption of lvl 16 on a comic where he is thwacking Roy with wooden daggers,apparently by counting the 'thwacks', skipping him three levels from the last time we know he leveled. Thin gruel, methinks.

[Kish]

I don't concede anything of the sort,

Then would you like to explain how levels 7-9+one ding+one probably-actually-predates-the-FAQ statement of leveling up equals Holy Word and Power Word Stun?

Vaarsuvius cannot be lower level than 15. There is just no way; he's cast an eighth-level spell on-panel (without being spliced at the time). Either you need to produce a whole lot of dings (or, for your altered assertion, other types of explicit statements) between the Dungeon of Dorukan and the Empire of Blood, or your argument is insupportable.

[t209]

He knew what about Belkar's (nonexistent) Sense Motive, and it has what to do with genre savviness?

Tarquin knew that he was in D&D verse, so he will know about Halfling (or at least Belkar)'s sense motive.

[Kish]

Again, he knows what about Belkar's Sense Motive? That it's abysmal? That's what there is to know about it, and it has nothing to do with him being a halfling; what are you talking about?

[Peelee]

Tarquin knew that he was in D&D verse, so he will know about Halfling (or at least Belkar)'s sense motive.

See also: Everyone knows they are in the D&D verse. Countless times characters have talked about saves, levelling up, what level they are, and other game mechanics that govern the world. Redcloak and Kubota have even pulled the actual books out! The rules that govern how their world works are well-known and seem to be common knowledge; calling that genre-savviness would make every character as genre savvy as Tarkin.

[Gift Jeraff]

Again, he knows what about Belkar's Sense Motive? That it's abysmal? That's what there is to know about it, and it has nothing to do with him being a halfling; what are you talking about?

I think he confused the Sense Motive skill with the Scent ability.

Just my 2 cents.

[sgtpimenta]

If Belkar is level 16 going into the LG fight (which we know he is, at least) then the rest of the Order except Roy should be 16 as well.

That is usually the way it goes, but hasn't ever occurred to you guys that maybe Roy is - even post-Ressurection - higher level than the rest of the Order? That has always been the case, for me. Don't know which was the first strip that got me this notion, but I can quote the last:

Roy easily defeats the sexy shoeless god of war and causes quite the impression.

Isn't much, I know, but there it is. He is the main character, afterall.

[Zarzar]

- "Thog give not-thog three of five on imita-... imitah-... try to be thog. Thog take points for riding dino-birdy thing, since dino-birdy things eat puppies. I think talky-man should be sorry for hurting puppies and stealing their food. I think I need some ice cream now. Sabine, can I have fudge ripple?"

- *facepalm*
- "Way to blow the dramatic reveal that you're still alive, Thog."

[Forikroder]

It's been a little over two days between the end of the last LG fight and now. It's been a little under a week since V first demonstrated the capability to cast level 8 spells (in the fight with Ganjii and Enor - she hasn't cast a level 8 spell since). Durkon's been spending his time and effort learning to cast a level 7 spell. Somehow I doubt V and Durkon have level 9 spells available.

i think the giant stated he forget that mass death ward was an actual spell so durkons been struggling to invent an entrely new spell

[FujinAkari]

Durkon, for example, could not have been more than level 15 as of comic 809,

We have Word of God that 809 does not mean this. As stated, Rich forgot Mass Death Ward was actually a spell and had Durkon researching an entirely new spell which he would theoretically gain as of his next level up.

Elan has not gained three levels since comic 647.

Elan has an unspecified number of levels in a PrC that does not appear to advance spellcasting. Comic 647 in no way proves his upperbound.

If you believe that the party is approximately equally leveled, you CANNOT believe that Belkar leveled to 17 off of feeding Mr. Scruffy some milk. And he deliberately avoided LG round 3, so he doesn't get XP for the party objective.

The DMG is very explicit about experience not being about the individual contributions of each member of a party, so what Belkar actually accomplished in the battle is entirely irrelevant.

[Kish]

We have Word of God that 809 does not mean this. As stated, Rich forgot Mass Death Ward was actually a spell and had Durkon researching an entirely new spell which he would theoretically gain as of his next level up.

Not as of his next level up. He's not a sorcerer. If he invented a new seventh-level spell, he could prepare it as soon as the DM said it was well-developed enough to work.

I don't believe any member of the Order is level 17; I do not expect them to catch up with Redcloak anytime soon and I do not expect Vaarsuvius and Durkon becoming able to cast 9th-level spells to pass without comment, any more than it passed without comment when Redcloak did so. But there is no proof of an upper level boundary for any of them, and I don't know what comic #809 has to do with it; Durkon's not even in that comic.

[Forikroder]

they must mean 806

[Math_Mage]

Sorry, the comic in question was 806, where Durkon lost a 7th-level Holy Word to Enervation.

I would think the character has to at least show up to the encounter to gain experience from it. I suppose he could have gained some experience by Scruffy proxy, or something.

[Forikroder]

Sorry, the comic in question was 806, where Durkon lost a 7th-level Holy Word to Enervation.

I would think the character has to at least show up to the encounter to gain experience from it. I suppose he could have gained some experience by Scruffy proxy, or something.

he would have gotten some XP for letting loose the allosaur so that could also even the XP field a bit

and for finding V

and maybe some for finding the draketooths

[Rothgar]

not-thog is battling the order of the stick, not thog. not-thog is not-nale and nale's father, and thog is not not-nale and nale's father. if not-thog was thog, not-not-thog would say 'thog smash' instead of 'thog smashes', but not-thog does not know not-not-thog's grammar by heart because he spent lots of time around not-nale and not nale. not-not-thog does not stick with not-nale and instead sticks with nale, who not-thog just allied himself with, but not thog. now not-thog will nail not-nale, not nale.

Awesome, you made my day :B

[stsasser]

D&D ignorance here.

Normally, all players on T's team would get XP from his defeating OOTS, right?

Assuming he does not want the LG to get that XP, is it affected by proximity or distance to the action?...hence he's riding ahead?

Is it affected by T's either false adherence or a possible last second defection?

Thanks for your patience.

[Forikroder]

D&D ignorance here.

Normally, all players on T's team would get XP from his defeating OOTS, right?

Assuming he does not want the LG to get that XP, is it affected by proximity or distance to the action?...hence he's riding ahead?

Is it affected by T's either false adherence or a possible last second defection?

Thanks for your patience.

its up tot eh DM who gets what XP but as long as a member of the party participated in the fight in some manor he gets XP for it so the entire LG would get XP if the order kicks the bucket

Out of the whole "Empire of Blood -> Gladiator -> Windy/WIndy Canyon" set of arcs, we have the following XP:

Roy: Empire of Blood (Minor, fight with Enor/Ganji), Gladiator Games (Major, RP and Thog), Windy/Windy (Minor).

Haley: Empire of Blood (Minor, lots of RP and the jailbreak(s)), Gladiator (Stoned. Duuude.), Windy/WIndy (None)

Elan: Empire of Blood (Possibly major RP experience), Gladiator (Does Nale/Sabine count anymore?), Windy/WIndy (Little to none).

Durkon: Empire of Blood (RP only), Gladiator (RP only), Windy/WIndy (Depends on the Dimension of Divine Dressings).

Belkar: Empire of Blood (Minor), Gladiator (Minimal, Scruffy did the fighting), Windy/WIndy (Depends on Dimension of Divine Dressings).

V: Empire of Blood (Minor, Enor/Ganji and Jailbreak), Gladiator (Major, Z and D.D.D.), Windy (D.D.D. Dependent).


To be honest, it depends on how much RP experience the PC's are getting, since we have a lot of RP going on for Roy, Elan, Haley, and Durkon. I'd venture to say Belkar probably got the least XP out of that arc, while Elan/Roy/V are probably up in the running for the most.

except the amounts you listed are completely your opinion and in no way reflect how much XP the OoTS got for each event

[Kish]

D&D ignorance here.

Normally, all players on T's team would get XP from his defeating OOTS, right?

Assuming he does not want the LG to get that XP, is it affected by proximity or distance to the action?...hence he's riding ahead?

Is it affected by T's either false adherence or a possible last second defection?

Thanks for your patience.

D&D doesn't account for anyone who isn't a PC getting XP, or for adversarial games. Accordingly, it doesn't really account for things like what you're asking about...at all.

[Smolder]

That is usually the way it goes, but hasn't ever occurred to you guys that maybe Roy is - even post-Ressurection - higher level than the rest of the Order? That has always been the case, for me. Don't know which was the first strip that got me this notion, but I can quote the last:

Roy easily defeats the sexy shoeless god of war and causes quite the impression.

Isn't much, I know, but there it is. He is the main character, afterall.

I don't accept that their training time before the arena was at all a test of their respective skills. First, Belkar was only joking, not trying to hurt Roy, just annoy him. Second, they were using wooden swords, and Belkar got in 8 strikes before Roy retaliated. In a real fight, with real weapons, Belkar could easily have won.