OOTS #850 - The Discussion Thread

[ti'esar]

Your A seems to lack a subject.
...Possibly also a verb, can't tell without the subject.

From past discussions here, he likely left out a "Girard".

[KrytenKoro]

I hope you are talking about somebody else, 'cause I never claimed that people were out of bounds just because they don't agree with me. I'm a "let's agree in disagree" kind of guy.

Just don’t tell me that my arguments are “OBJECTIVELY better” or “unequivocally wrong”.

is what you said earlier.

It's really, really disingenuous to shout down other people's claims, then hide behind "it was only an opinion, and opinions are perfect little snowflakes that can never be criticized for any reason" as soon as they give a critique of your claims.

Trying to keep things on topic, does anyone know if there's any feat or other effect that could provide Tarquin a bonus if he's fighting multiple enemies? I can't figure out why he would possibly want all of them to rush him at once unless he's certain he can wipe the floor with them and is just bored...but it doesn't seem like him to take unnecessary risks like going into battle at this point. Plus, the Order uses the corpses of defeated enemies as litter boxes and salsa dishes, so there's not going to be much legendary about going out right here.

[Peelee]

Zz'dtri has already fired 2 acid balls, and has no reason not to continue doing so, especially with the Order grouped up together.

Malack is an unknown quantity. For example, if Tarquin dies, Malack is effectively off the chain and could do just about anything, including turning on Nale. Also, Malack seems to lack enthusiasm for this venture, whereas Z, Nale and Sabine are eager to draw blood.

Kilkil is still the real unknown quantity...

-----------------
Edit: inb4 it depends on how many slots worth of acid ball he prepared
I assume he's got other spells prepared.

Boo, your edit takes out my main argument against his lobbing ball after ball of acid around. He still may want to save one or two for V, though, as Z seems almost more keen than Nale to keep the "evil opposite" theme going, and seems to really have it out for V.

Kilkil is the most unkown, yes, but the reason I think Malak is the more formidable is that we have been given a glimpse into his potential power, and that glimpse was pretty staggering. He almost effortlessly dropped a mid-to-high character (whatever the CLG says Nale is. I'm not wanting to start that argument back up with a different character)

Kilkil we just flat-out don't know anything about. Which isn't to say that he couldn't be better than Malak or any of the other LG/OotS, it's just we have no idea, and with that situation, I'd put my money on the albino reptilian.

[ti'esar]

On that note, do we know why Zz'dtri hates V so much? He tailored his entire build to defeat her, potentially jeopardized his "Polozius" disguise by shooting glares at her constantly, yet doesn't seem to have any real reason for it - except, I guess, the "dragged off by lawyers" thing, but that wasn't really personal, which Z's grudge seems to be.

[MeanMrsMustard]

It's really, really disingenuous to shout down other people's claims, then hide behind "it was only an opinion, and opinions are perfect little snowflakes that can never be criticized for any reason" as soon as they give a critique of your claims.

This. Thank you so much. I hate the word "opinion," and KrytenKoro summed up the reason why.
Also: I have no clue why Z hates V. Perhaps Nale advised him to become personal rivals with V or something.

[Marlowe]

He's Linear Guild, they're practically synonymous with taking disproportionate revenge over quasi-imagined slights.

[zimmerwald1915]

Boo, your edit takes out my main argument against his lobbing ball after ball of acid around. He still may want to save one or two for V, though, as Z seems almost more keen than Nale to keep the "evil opposite" theme going, and seems to really have it out for V.

Then there's the issue of Z not actually having that many spell slots to spare. Assuming an ECL and Intelligence comparable to V's, Z has a total of 8 spell slots he can spend on Vitriolic Spheres with varying degrees of meta'd-ness. He's already spent a level 7 slot on Empowered Vitriolic Sphere, and at least a level 5 slot on what might be either a regular or somehow-meta'd Vitriolic Sphere. That's already a quarter of his acid-blasting potential gone, and he may have wanted to use his level 5 and 6 slots (I don't believe he has more non-specialist level 7 slots) for something, anything else.

We have yet to see Z cast more than one level 7 spell per fight (Plane Shift in the arena ambush, and Empowered Vitriolic Sphere over the ziggurat). It is possible that the only level 7 spell Z has remaining is in her specialist slot, which we know is reserved for a Transmutation spell.

Kilkil is the most unkown, yes, but the reason I think Malak is the more formidable is that we have been given a glimpse into his potential power, and that glimpse was pretty staggering. He almost effortlessly dropped a mid-to-high character (whatever the CLG says Nale is. I'm not wanting to start that argument back up with a different character)

I've made this point before, but the reason Malack is dangerous is because he is goal-oriented and supremely competant, not necessarily because he has abilities we have not yet seen at his command. Durkon is competant, yes, but it takes a lot of prodding to get him focused on the problem at hand, and that time is something his enemies can exploit. Malack has no such weakness.

For what it's worth, Nale is definately in the double digits. He's probably at or around Elan's level, however (personal rival and all), whose known minimum is higher than his own by a fair bit.

[Forikroder]

Kilkil is the most unkown, yes, but the reason I think Malak is the more formidable is that we have been given a glimpse into his potential power, and that glimpse was pretty staggering. He almost effortlessly dropped a mid-to-high character (whatever the CLG says Nale is. I'm not wanting to start that argument back up with a different character)

Tarquin never fought Nale, the only time they technically fought was off panel during the coup and Nale would ahve gained more levels faster then tarquin

unless you mean when Tarquin threw a knife at Nale but Nale had already ate a harm so it was probably all he could do to stand on his own feet at that point

as for Z, he probably joined the linear guild for power and considered himself stronger then V (since he was Vs opposite it makes sense they would share mentality) then V got out of there duel with a dues ex machina forcing Z out of the story for a long time so he must hate Vs guts

and then when the finally do have there duel V wins, Z was probably phsyching himself up the entire time since there last duel about how much stronger he was and then he loses, Z must be about ready to explode

[Math_Mage]

I first started this whole Roy's level discussion by asking why do you believe that's he's not high level. I believe I understand now. It's because you are using inductive reasoning.

You keep trying to prove that there is no black swan (high level Roy) by claiming that my black swan(#795) is gray, while simultaneously showing me lots and lots of white swans (death, out of the party during a whole season, etc).

The analogy is invalid because we're still looking at the same character. It's more like watching rings on a tree as it ages. The evidence we have from earlier in the comic informs our discussion of the later elements.

We know OotS was equally leveled at the start of the comic. We know they faced approximately the same set of challenges between then and Roy's death. We know V was level 13 at the battle. In the extreme, we could hypothesize that Roy reached level 14 before dying--his father did call him the highest-leveled Good character on the battlefield--even though we have no evidence to suggest that Roy had special XP from any source. However, we know Resurrection gives -1 level from when the character died, and as previously stated, in-comic evidence suggests that this rule was followed, since Roy can't learn feats by leveling in the afterlife. This puts Roy behind the rest of the party--13, at most, when the others are 14-15 (various sources). And we know the rest of the Order was level 15-16 (various sources) at the time of the arena fight.

So when we have one ambiguous scene that COULD suggest Roy has four attacks and COULD suggest Roy has three attacks, why would we take the former over the latter?

I'm ignoring the rest of your post because I'm tired of arguing about what the discussion was in the middle of the discussion, and what your attitude is when your statements shift one way and another. This is the evidence as it stands, and you can take it or leave it.

[RustyVenture]

I just joined the forum so that I could add that I believe the biggest unknown is what Elan's plan for how he and Durkon will defeat Tarquin. I don't think it's going to take them too long to figure out who they are really facing, especially if Malack does anything, so if it's possible they could put that plan into action really soon.

[sgtpimenta]

(...)
I'm ignoring the rest of your post because I'm tired of arguing about what the discussion was in the middle of the discussion, and what your attitude is when your statements shift one way and another. This is the evidence as it stands, and you can take it or leave it.

It's really, really disingenuous to shout down other people's claims, then hide behind "it was only an opinion, and opinions are perfect little snowflakes that can never be criticized for any reason" as soon as they give a critique of your claims.

That's not what I've done. I stated my position (Roy is higher level than Belkar) and asked why people disagree (and it's not that mine is the default scenario; it's mine, so I don't need to ask). Then, people started to attack my position, demanding that I showed them exactly when Roy gained XP. That's really a poor argument, since no one can do that, except maybe The Giant. We, the readers, can't tell about any character's level simply by counting the XP they gained in the comics. We know someone's level by the things they do(attacks per round, spells, etc). The moment we see Belkar making 7 attacks, we can see that he's 16+. But the last level we have him tracked was 13th. How did he get to 16? Doesn't matter.

I was looking for some strip, thread or quote that showed that it's impossible for Roy be 16+(He was the highest level good char when he died, afterall). Maybe he explicitly tells that he can't have a feat with a known 16 levels pre-requisite. Or complains about not being able to attack four times per round. But saying "he's been dead and Resurrected" it's not the same thing and does not proves his maximum level.

But we can continue this discussion in another thread. I think we have gone long enough talking about Roy's levels in this thread... Maybe I will create new one about the subject, later.

[Math_Mage]

That's not what I've done. I stated my position (Roy is higher level than Belkar) and asked why people disagree (and it's not that mine is the default scenario; it's mine, so I don't need to ask). Then, people started to attack my position, demanding that I showed them exactly when Roy gained XP. That's really a poor argument, since no one can do that, except maybe The Giant. We, the readers, can't tell about any character's level simply by counting the XP they gained in the comics. We know someone's level by the things they do(attacks per round, spells, etc). The moment we see Belkar making 7 attacks, we can see that he's 16+. But the last level we have him tracked was 13th. How did he get to 16? Doesn't matter.

I just laid out why the evidence in the comic shows that Roy is lower level than Belkar. But you just ignored it again. *shrugs* Your funeral.

Keep waiting on absolute disproof of Russell's teapot, too. I'm sure it's just around the bend.

[Kaulguard]

Re: Z's hatred of V: Dark Elf. That is all.

[mrmcfatty]

I think V and Z hate each other just because they see each other as competition , there are other minor reasons but that is the main one i think.

i am also in the camp of thinking that V will be the one to take out Z with magic because as far as he is aware V is in the plane of torment(or whatever it was that Quar said) so it is unlikely that Z is prepared to fight a caster of equal power and most likely prepared most his spells as AoE or ones better equipped for the rest of the order.

[Forikroder]

I think V and Z hate each other just because they see each other as competition , there are other minor reasons but that is the main one i think.

i am also in the camp of thinking that V will be the one to take out Z with magic because as far as he is aware V is in the plane of torment(or whatever it was that Quar said) so it is unlikely that Z is prepared to fight a caster of equal power and most likely prepared most his spells as AoE or ones better equipped for the rest of the order.

Z would assume that the order would have rescued V by now

and hed probably prepare an anti-wizard build anyway because they dont know the draketooths are dead yet

[FAD!]

On that note, do we know why Zz'dtri hates V so much? He tailored his entire build to defeat her, potentially jeopardized his "Polozius" disguise by shooting glares at her constantly, yet doesn't seem to have any real reason for it - except, I guess, the "dragged off by lawyers" thing, but that wasn't really personal, which Z's grudge seems to be.

Z is of established gender, a drow
and Chaotic Good. Plus,

He doesn't speak much.

He wants to compete with V.

[Emperordaniel]

Z is of established gender, a drow
and Chaotic Good.

Wait, where did it say that Z is a Good-aligned character?

[Marlowe]

The Chaotic Good reference was a joke on the the ambiguous status of Drow as a villainous race when their most widely-know member is a quote hero unquote.

To be an opposite to V he has to be one of the four "extreme" alignments. I'm not guessing which one.

[Kish]

Nale said that Zz'dtri's entire species consists of Chaotic Good rebels.

The credibility of Nale, I'll leave as an exercise for the reader.

[Winter]

The credibility of Nale, I'll leave as an exercise for the reader.

Please don't. Spell it out or we'll have "Nale is a valid source for all kinds of things"-discussions that go on and on and on and on...

[Forikroder]

Z is chaotic good in the same way Nale is taking orders from his wise and benelovent king

Z had no problem stone shaping the sylph guarding the air sigil which would have killed her pretty sure that puts him in the chaotic or neutral evil categories, probably more chaotic then neutral but thats hard to really tell

[RNGgod]

Z would assume that the order would have rescued V by now

and hed probably prepare an anti-wizard build anyway because they dont know the draketooths are dead yet

I don't see how Z would expect (maybe prepare for, but not EXPECT) the Order to have rescued V from the demiplane of extremely painful torture, or whatever it was.

But yes, knowing Z, an anti-wizard build is very likely, if not certain.

[Forikroder]

I don't see how Z would expect (maybe prepare for, but not EXPECT) the Order to have rescued V from the demiplane of extremely painful torture, or whatever it was.

But yes, knowing Z, an anti-wizard build is very likely, if not certain.

rescuing him from the demiplan of torture is just as hard as rescuing him from the plane he was on except maybe more of them need to go to fight off the torturers the order had a long time to get V out of there

[Marlowe]

Not only is the "information" coming from Nale, but the Chaotic Good line was never specifically applied to Z.

OK. OK. He said the entire race consisted of Chaotic Good rebels fighting against their evil kin. An obvious lampshaded absurdity. But in so far as the line has any value at all it was never applied specifically to Z.

Now I need ice cream.

[sims796]

Not only is the "information" coming from Nale, but the Chaotic Good line was never specifically applied to Z.

OK. OK. He said the entire race consisted of Chaotic Good rebels fighting against their evil kin. An obvious lampshaded absurdity. But in so far as the line has any value at all it was never applied specifically to Z.

Now I need ice cream.

Didn't Z immediately prove his (negative) alignment right after the next strip?

[Marlowe]

Z is Taciturn Negative?

[Peelee]

Tarquin never fought Nale, the only time they technically fought was off panel during the coup and Nale would ahve gained more levels faster then tarquin

unless you mean when Tarquin threw a knife at Nale but Nale had already ate a harm so it was probably all he could do to stand on his own feet at that point

as for Z, he probably joined the linear guild for power and considered himself stronger then V (since he was Vs opposite it makes sense they would share mentality) then V got out of there duel with a dues ex machina forcing Z out of the story for a long time so he must hate Vs guts

and then when the finally do have there duel V wins, Z was probably phsyching himself up the entire time since there last duel about how much stronger he was and then he loses, Z must be about ready to explode

Actually, I never once mentioned Tarquin. I'm not particularly a fan of Tatquin, and I quite clearly said Malak was the one who almost killed Nale effortlessly. I dont know exactly how you thought I was talking about Tarquin, but for clarification purposes, I was referring solely to Malak.

[Forikroder]

Actually, I never once mentioned Tarquin. I'm not particularly a fan of Tatquin, and I quite clearly said Malak was the one who almost killed Nale effortlessly. I dont know exactly how you thought I was talking about Tarquin, but for clarification purposes, I was referring solely to Malak.

huh not sure why i thought you were talking about Tarquin...

while his fight against Nale was flashy, the main crux is he didnt use any high level spell like implosion so its hard to tell how high a level he is based on that one fight

[mrmcfatty]

rescuing him from the demiplan of torture is just as hard as rescuing him from the plane he was on except maybe more of them need to go to fight off the torturers the order had a long time to get V out of there

the problem with this would be that they only knew where V was because of a sending he cast...this would be quite a hard task to accomplish if he was in the plane of extremely painful torture(i actually looked it up this time) so they would have no idea which plane he was in to actually retrieve him.

so him being prepared for V would be quite unlikely, however i will agree that he is still prepped to fight against the Draketooths(draketeeth?)

[Kish]

Please don't. Spell it out or we'll have "Nale is a valid source for all kinds of things"-discussions that go on and on and on and on...

Oh, all right. Ahem...

NALE IS A LIAR.