OOTS #858 - The Discussion Thread

[Gift Jeraff]

Fighter/Rogue does make some amount of sense for Tarquin, since it's possible he was training Nale to follow the same path until his sorcery started to manifest.

[Gusion]

Except that we don't have any evidence that Tarquin has any levels in rogue.

Well, it could be from having levels in barbarian too, as otherwise mentioned. The rogue idea came largely from comics 761 and there abouts. But barbarian could work too, sure. Or who the hell knows maybe he has a magical item that grants the ability as per the class description.

Additionally the Rogue's Trap Sense does not work like. Trap sense works on traps set off, like the ones they are currently avoiding, not ambushes.

Well see I even predicted this. All the book says is traps. It doesn't say "mechanical traps" or "everything but ambushes" or "stationary traps." It just says traps. And if I'm guessing correctly it is *suppose* to be taking the literal wording and not what we know it means. That's the whole point of making fun of it.

[EmperorSarda]

Well see I even predicted this. All the book says is traps. It doesn't say "mechanical traps" or "everything but ambushes" or "stationary traps." It just says traps. And if I'm guessing correctly it is *suppose* to be taking the literal wording and not what we know it means. That's the whole point of making fun of it.

Even if the Barbarian/Rogue trap sense worked for ambushes, it grants a reflex and ac bonus. It says nothing about detecting a trap before it goes off, just defending against attacks made by traps.

Tarquin senses the trap/ambush before it goes off, having time to move about 10 feet before the arrow is released. That isn't Trap Sense. Trap sense would be sensing the trap as the arrow is released, turning and catching the arrow or something to that effect.

[rgrekejin]

Trap: we can now add it to the list of words, like level and samurai, for which we wished someone involved with the game design had maybe used a thesaurus for.

Trap Sense just doesn't work like that. It only works for traps, not ambushes. Sure, you can argue that Trap Sense is being made fun of here, but that's really a stretch, especially given that we have no real reason to suspect Tarquin has Trap Sense.

[WindStruck]

I bet Tarquin took some levels in another made-up prestige class called something like "Master Tactician". First you need levels in fighter class... now here's the thing. If we look at how a barbarian has more HP, an ability to rage, and no feat bonuses, then fighter has a bit less HP but more feats, this prestige class would go further, with even less base HP but granting MORE feats and/or abilities.

For example, it would have a wider selection of class skills and more skill points, and would grant a bonus feat every level.

In addition, it would probably have some special abilities gained at certain levels like:

Analytic Fighting
Use INT modifier instead of STR, CON, or DEX for some given circumstances X amount per day/hour. Honestly reminds me of the cheesy fight scenes playing in Sherlock Holmes's mind before he actually goes through with them in the new movies.

Uncanny Defense
Negate an enemy's non-magical or non-supernatural special ability that counts as a physical attack specifically targeting you. The attack can then be fully blocked with parry/blocking/dodge rolls.

Ambush Sense
At X level, a master tactician gains an intuitive sense that alerts him to danger from potential surprise attacks, giving him +2 bonus to spot and listen checks beforehand, +2 to initiative, and +1 bonus to reflex saves and +1 dodge bonus to AC from attackers in the event that they still catch him by surprise. After Y more levels the bonuses become +4 to spot, listen, initiative and +2 to AC and reflex saves, then +6 / +3, etc....


Hmm, just thought of something. You know the best part about a new prestige class Rich might have made up? When all the dust has settled and the current conflict between Tarquin and OOTS is resolved, I bet he'd be willing to train Roy in that class as a mentor.

[Kish]

Aside from the very good chance that any made-up prestige class Tarquin has is evil-or-at-least-nongood-only...

There is a very good chance that when the dust has settled and the current conflict between Tarquin and OOTS is resolved, Tarquin will be too dead to train anyone in anything.

[WindStruck]

Aside from the very good chance that any made-up prestige class Tarquin has is evil-or-at-least-nongood-only...

There is a very good chance that when the dust has settled and the current conflict between Tarquin and OOTS is resolved, Tarquin will be too dead to train anyone in anything.

Well, I don't see why a fighter prestige class that focuses way more on special situational combat feats and tactics has to be non-good. Alignment should be completely out of the picture.

And yeah, Tarquin COULD die... or most likely not unless Xykon pops in and has something to do with it. Still, he's got all the rest of his team (Malack included) and Elan would probably whine until he got raised...

[Gift Jeraff]

No, Kish is right. Tarquin's probably gonna die.

Why would Roy train under him? Why would an ally of Elan be willing to resurrect someone as evil as him? Why why why

[FujinAkari]

Even if the Barbarian/Rogue trap sense worked for ambushes, it grants a reflex and ac bonus. It says nothing about detecting a trap before it goes off, just defending against attacks made by traps.

No, it does explicitly say that Trap Sense represents "an intuitive sense that alerts her to danger." which is -exactly- what Tarquin has here.

I don't think the comic is actually referencing Trap Sense, but I do agree the argument "Well its lame that he just knows! That isn't how it should work in D&D!" is invalid. Trap Sense makes it very obvious that extensive knowledge of something does lead to an intuitive feeling which alerts the character of potential danger.

No, Kish is right. Tarquin's probably gonna die.

I don't think so. Tarquin is a major figure in Elan's character arc, and I think Elan needs to find a way to beat him without killing him, leaving him powerless. Elan's arc doesn't make sense culminating in killing his own father.

[Gift Jeraff]

So Tarquin's going to live because he's related to Elan? Nale's even closer related to Elan, so does that mean they'll all live?

I think learning that family!=blood is also an important part of Elan's character arc, and, incidentally, also connects to Haley and Ian's character arcs.

[Kish]

I don't think the comic is actually referencing Trap Sense, but I do agree the argument "Well its lame that he just knows! That isn't how it should work in D&D!" is invalid. Trap Sense makes it very obvious that extensive knowledge of something does lead to an intuitive feeling which alerts the character of potential danger.

It has never worked that way for Haley. Again, when Xykon covered a door in traps, she searched it and said there were no traps there that she could find. She didn't say, "There are no traps there that I can find, but I just know it's trapped anyway."

[EmperorSarda]

No, it does explicitly say that Trap Sense represents "an intuitive sense that alerts her to danger." which is -exactly- what Tarquin has here.

The fluff of the text doesn't match the actual mechanics of the ability though. If it worked to the alerting of just danger, then Tarquin's trap sense would be going off with every trap to which they come.

The mechanics of the ability reflect it more as a spidey-sense ability, sensing danger and jumping out of the way in the nick of time, or raising your shield to help protect yourself in the nick of time. That is reflected in the mechanics, in reflex save bonus and the AC dodge bonus. Not knowing somehow a trap is there and taking a partial move action before the 'trap' is even sprung. This is how trap sense works. Notice that there is no trap detection at all.

Could it be something similar? Yes. Could it be him talking out of his butt to now show his son the full extent of his capabilities? Yes.

Let's look at this situation in another context. Two or so years ago Nale rebelled against his father to be king instead of the Scarlet Empress. He was defeated and perhaps promised revenge on his father. Either way, Tarquin knows Nale extremely well, knows of his ego and how well he forgives and lets things go. Tarquin at the very least knows Nale won't let that defeat go.

We know Nale tried to raise an army of monsters to go against his father. That failed and Nale turned his attentions to Elan, revenge for refusing to join his team.

Now Nale is back in his father's kingdom and been looking for the Gate, presumably to take out his father and at the very least conquer the Western Continent. It is entirely reasonable for Tarquin to assume this once Nale told him about the gate.

Now that Nale has told Tarquin for the gate, Tarquin and Malack have joined the team to secure the gate, not for Nale, but for their designs of conquest. It's possible that Nale doesn't know that he has no chance at the gate, entirely reasonably so given his ego. Tarquin must be aware of this, that he and his son are only temporarily aligned.

So given that the Linear Guild is only loosely held together at the moment ,especially if Xykon crashes in and Tarquin realizes that Elan's scenery-chewing villain bent on world conquest and Nale's source for the ritual are one and the same, then it is only logical for Tarquin to keep some of his abilities, or their exact nature, a secret for now.

[rgrekejin]

No, it does explicitly say that Trap Sense represents "an intuitive sense that alerts her to danger." which is -exactly- what Tarquin has here.

I don't think the comic is actually referencing Trap Sense, but I do agree the argument "Well its lame that he just knows! That isn't how it should work in D&D!" is invalid. Trap Sense makes it very obvious that extensive knowledge of something does lead to an intuitive feeling which alerts the character of potential danger.

Trap Sense grants "an intuitive sense that alerts her to danger from traps". It only applies to danger from actual traps, in the highly specific, DnD sense of the term. Arguing that it applies to the Order's ambush just because it happens to fit a definition of the word "trap" is equivocal to making the argument that Miko has samurai levels because she is a samurai.

What you're looking for is Foresight, not Trap Sense. It far better fits the description of "an intuitive sense that alerts one to danger".

And before anyone gets any crazy ideas, I'm not suggesting that Tarquin somehow has Foresight going on. It's just something I brought up to illustrate the problems with this understanding of Trap Sense.

[Gusion]

It has never worked that way for Haley. Again, when Xykon covered a door in traps, she searched it and said there were no traps there that she could find. She didn't say, "There are no traps there that I can find, but I just know it's trapped anyway."

It has never worked that way for Haley that we have seen in a direct manner.

If you are referencing comic 35 & 36, as I think you are, than Rich was busy making a joke in 35... and in 36 one could even argue that she did have an intuitive feeling but wasn't high enough level to recognize it for what it was and verbalize it the same way.

She did, after all, wait "all the way over there" and arguably her gut told her that if there were going to be traps they would be too difficult for her to find.

[EmperorSarda]

It has never worked that way for Haley that we have seen in a direct manner.

If you are referencing comic 35 & 36, as I think you are, than Rich was busy making a joke in 35... and in 36 one could even argue that she did have an intuitive feeling but wasn't high enough level to recognize it for what it was and verbalize it the same way.

She did, after all, wait "all the way over there" and arguably her gut told her that if there were going to be traps they would be too difficult for her to find.

Except we do have a direct example, comic #98. Besides, the progression of Trap Sense only grants a bigger reflex and AC bonus, it does not allow one to eventually act as Tarquin acted.

[jere7my]

Trap Sense grants "an intuitive sense that alerts her to danger from traps". It only applies to danger from actual traps, in the highly specific, DnD sense of the term. Arguing that it applies to the Order's ambush just because it happens to fit a definition of the word "trap" is equivocal to making the argument that Miko has samurai levels because she is a samurai.

Has nobody ever seen a character in a movie hold up his hand and say, "Stop. Something's not...right," without being able to put their finger on exactly what? Nobody's ever seen someone catch on to an ambush just before it happens, based on some niggling intuition below the level of rational explanation? That's all that's going on here — it doesn't need to be supported by explicit references to D&D rules. Rich himself has said he doesn't map everything out according to D&D rules. Sometimes people just get hunches.

[Kish]

It has never worked that way for Haley that we have seen in a direct manner.

...

There are tons of comics that would be very different if Trap Sense did what you're asserting it does.

If you are referencing comic 35 & 36, as I think you are,

I am referencing the entire comic; I generally am when I say "so-and-so has never." Either Haley has been impossible to negatively surprise since the first comic--which she clearly has not. Or...*takes a deep breath and puts a Morbo mask on* TRAP SENSE DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY!

[rgrekejin]

Has nobody ever seen a character in a movie hold up his hand and say, "Stop. Something's not...right," without being able to put their finger on exactly what? Nobody's ever seen someone catch on to an ambush just before it happens, based on some niggling intuition below the level of rational explanation? That's all that's going on here — it doesn't need to be supported by explicit references to D&D rules. Rich himself has said he doesn't map everything out according to D&D rules. Sometimes people just get hunches.

That's exactly what I'm saying. There's no need to stretch out the Trap Sense class feature so that it does something it was obviously never intended to do just to explain what's going on here (especially since there is otherwise pretty much no evidence to suggest Tarquin might have a class which grants Trap Sense). Tarquin just felt something wasn't right. There's no reason to invent a new class feature to explain it... it's just a thing that happened.

[FujinAkari]

Again, when Xykon covered a door in traps, she searched it and said there were no traps there that she could find. She didn't say, "There are no traps there that I can find, but I just know it's trapped anyway."

Maybe you need to read the comic again, because she does say "There are no traps I can find, but I am going to stand way the hell away when it is opened anyway."

I am referencing the entire comic; I generally am when I say "so-and-so has never." Either Haley has been impossible to negatively surprise since the first comic--which she clearly has not. Or...*takes a deep breath and puts a Morbo mask on* TRAP SENSE DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY!

I am going to have to call shenanigans on this one, since you were VERY OBVIOUSLY referring to the above linked comic. You don't get to abruptly claim it was a general reference when you stated 'when xykon covered the entire door in traps.'

Additionally, even if a "lot of the comic*" doesn't work that way... D&D is a game based on dice. If the dice go badly, then your intuition didn't kick in that time. It isn't a sure-fire thing and the mechanics of trap-sense make it abundantly clear that it isn't trap immunity, it just raises the chances of realizing that something is wrong. So the strips where Haley doesn't realize there is a trap are the strips where the trap rolled well.

* - does anyone find it odd that, despite this interpretation being prevalent over most of the comic, only one example has been cited thus far.. and -that- example actually supports the idea of trap sense existing as intuition?

Trap Sense grants "an intuitive sense that alerts her to danger from traps". It only applies to danger from actual traps, in the highly specific, DnD sense of the term. Arguing that it applies to the Order's ambush just because it happens to fit a definition of the word "trap" is equivocal to making the argument that Miko has samurai levels because she is a samurai.

This would be a really relevant and good point, were I actually making that argument. However:

I don't think the comic is actually referencing Trap Sense

[EmperorSarda]

Maybe you need to read the comic again, because she does say "There are no traps I can find, but I am going to stand way the hell away when it is opened anyway."

She isn't saying she senses a trap. She is saying that she believes Xykon can hide traps better than she can find them. So no, comic #36 does not reference trap sense. #98 does.

[WindStruck]

Has nobody ever seen a character in a movie hold up his hand and say, "Stop. Something's not...right," without being able to put their finger on exactly what? Nobody's ever seen someone catch on to an ambush just before it happens, based on some niggling intuition below the level of rational explanation? That's all that's going on here — it doesn't need to be supported by explicit references to D&D rules. Rich himself has said he doesn't map everything out according to D&D rules. Sometimes people just get hunches.

This happens a lot. And usually it's accompanied by the stock phrase, "It's quiet... TOO quiet."

[Kish]

Maybe you need to read the comic again, because she does say "There are no traps I can find, but I am going to stand way the hell away when it is opened anyway."

And she explains why. You're ignoring her reasoned explanation for why there might, or might not, be traps on the door in favor of asserting that it's actually the exact same thing Tarquin describes with, "Trap. I can just feel it."

I am going to have to call shenanigans on this one, since you were VERY OBVIOUSLY referring to the above linked comic.

"When Xykon covered the entire door in traps" is a specific reference. To a single example of a time when Trap Sense manifestly did not work the way you and Gusion are insisting it does--while you apparently do not actually believe it (see below).

"It has never worked that way"--means never. I could come up with a dozen more "Why didn't Haley warn the Order this was about to happen or react to it in advance herself?" examples to show that Trap Sense doesn't work for "I know we're about to be ambushed" if requiring more than one example made any bloody sense. When the Order got sprayed with barbecue sauce, Haley's Trap Sense let her move out of the way. It did not let her warn the rest of the Order. Getting a bonus to her reflex save for a trap what Trap Sense does if Rich is not using a house rule and, "coincidentally," it is exactly what Trap Sense has been shown to do.

I would respond to the rest of your post, but you apparently do not actually believe in the case you're trying to make.

[ti'esar]

Well, it looks like we've officially reached that point where people stop focusing on the comic per se and start bickering over petty things while waiting for the next one.

What was it last time? Elven military capabilities?

[FujinAkari]

And she explains why. You're ignoring her reasoned explanation for why there might, or might not, be traps on the door in favor of asserting that it's actually the exact same thing Tarquin describes with, "Trap. I can just feel it."

Because if that was her reasoning, she would stand way the heck back from EVERY door in the Dungeon of Durokan. Seeing how she does not make any effort to distance herself from the -very next door- then we have to presume there was something else about the ultra-trapped door that made her wary, despite not finding anything.

I would respond to the rest of your post, but you apparently do not actually believe in the case you're trying to make.

Nope! I fully believe in the case which I'm arguing, people are just trying to shoehorn my argument into their argument.

So let me be clear, I do not think the current strip is a reference to Trap Sense.

I do think that treating Trap Sense as an intuitive waryness that makes rogues suspicious of potential traps and thus more able to avoid being caught offguard by them is a valid interpretation.

I do not understand people's reluctance to buy into this interpretation... seeing as the SRD explicitly describes it like that.

[Gusion]

Except we do have a direct example, comic #98.

Well, maybe. We have what Elan thinks is trap sense, but I'm not going to nitpick. Let's presume he's right. Just because Haley didn't say anything doesn't mean she couldn't have. All she does is smile after Elan mentions her using trap sense too.

Besides, the progression of Trap Sense only grants a bigger reflex and AC bonus, it does not allow one to eventually act as Tarquin acted.

Because the rule description that, "At 3rd level, a rogue gains an intuitive sense that alerts her to danger from traps" is kinda silly. And yes you'll see people argue that it means this or that and it is not applicable... but that's not the point.

[zimmerwald1915]

Personally, I fail to understand how the argument "there exists a mechanical ability that doesn't account for the behavior we have seen, which doesn't need to be accounted for by an ability at all, so of course that's what's behind the ability" makes any sense.

[Math_Mage]

Well, it looks like we've officially reached that point where people stop focusing on the comic per se and start bickering over petty things while waiting for the next one.

What was it last time? Elven military capabilities?

Yeah.

Random thought: Haley's using a really low anchor point for an archer. Yes, I did just complain about anatomy in a stick figure comic. You may all point and laugh now.

Personally, I fail to understand how the argument "there exists a mechanical ability that doesn't account for the behavior we have seen, which doesn't need to be accounted for by an ability at all, so of course that's what's behind the ability" makes any sense.

Fuse the "competence = mechanical strength" error with reading just the title of Trap Sense, and you have it.

I didn't say the argument was correct, just that it made sense.

I'd like to revise some earlier remarks I made: although Tarquin has been walking down narrow trap-filled hallways for some time now, the remarks bringing the LG's discussion back to traps, and particularly traps that aren't merely mechanical ("It takes a booby trap to find one"), could serve as a unique trigger for T's thought processes. Add in the suitable location, and Tarquin's timely realization is, contra my previous objection, quite natural.

[zimmerwald1915]

Fuse the "competence = mechanical strength" error with reading just the title of Trap Sense, and you have it.

I didn't say the argument was correct, just that it made sense.

Touche.

[factotum]

Because if that was her reasoning, she would stand way the heck back from EVERY door in the Dungeon of Durokan. Seeing how she does not make any effort to distance herself from the -very next door-

I think you're over-analyzing a joke, to be honest, but even if we take what you're saying at face value, you'll notice she didn't exactly rush forward to open the door either--she was certainly far enough back from it that a similar trap to the one that got Roy would have missed her.

[Math_Mage]

K, guess I'll go back and join the nit-pickery.

Because if that was her reasoning, she would stand way the heck back from EVERY door in the Dungeon of Durokan. Seeing how she does not make any effort to distance herself from the -very next door- then we have to presume there was something else about the ultra-trapped door that made her wary, despite not finding anything.

They were on the cusp of deciding not to open that door, if you recall.

Regardless, her reasoning WAS as Kish described it--there is no "If that was her reasoning," because we are told exactly what her reasoning is.

I do think that treating Trap Sense as an intuitive waryness that makes rogues suspicious of potential traps and thus more able to avoid being caught offguard by them is a valid interpretation.

I do not understand people's reluctance to buy into this interpretation... seeing as the SRD explicitly describes it like that.

Because the SRD actually describes it like this:

Trap Sense (Ex)

At 3rd level, a rogue gains an intuitive sense that alerts her to danger from traps, giving her a +1 bonus on Reflex saves made to avoid traps and a +1 dodge bonus to AC against attacks made by traps. These bonuses rise to +2 when the rogue reaches 6th level, to +3 when she reaches 9th level, to +4 when she reaches 12th level, to +5 at 15th, and to +6 at 18th level.

Interpreting the description in its full context, not to mention with its actual wording, leads us to the conclusion that Trap Sense makes the rogue more sensitive to the effect of a trap, rather than to the potential existence of one.

A recurring part of the comic strip is making fun of how stupid some of the D&D rules are. Rich has poked fun of various parts of the game throughout the strip's history. 3.5 has plenty of opportunities to do this, so I don't see it stopping anytime soon.

I think Tarquin's abuse of Trap Sense in this comic is just another example of that. Why? Because the rule description that, "At 3rd level, a rogue gains an intuitive sense that alerts her to danger from traps" is kinda silly. And yes you'll see people argue that it means this or that and it is not applicable... but that's not the point. The point is that rule is silly and vague and Rich is poking fun at it... and as a result of it combined with his hubris the action backfired.

My guess is some explanation could come in the next few strips, but probably not as they will be used for battle... and most people would rather see the battle than Nale asking daddy how he did it and Tarquin giving a witty reply about his class levels.

So the discrepancy between what happened and the mechanic you're referencing is a joke...except without anything to indicate any sort of joke whatsoever. You're claiming that the Giant is lampshading the silliness of Trap Sense by not mentioning it in any way, or explaining it in any way that would make sense to someone not intimately familiar with the text of the PHB. Not only has Trap Sense been lampshaded previously with its intended mechanical effect, but we don't even know if Tarquin has Trap Sense.

In short,