My Little Pony LII: 525.600 Ponies!

[Thanqol]

I mean, Gravity works as per usual, and no one's bothered to explain if it does work or not.

Um, about that

[Merellis]

Um, about that

Isn't Pinkie always the exception? :P

[Thanqol]

Isn't Pinkie always the exception? :P

Okay. Pegasus flight is aerodynamically impossible.

C'mon guys, didn't the Brony Physics Video teach you anything? You just can't argue that MLP follows remotely the same laws of physics as the real world. The evidence against outweighs the evidence for by an order of magnitude. Are you not scientists? Don't you base your laws on observation rather than bullheaded application of dogma? Doesn't observation clearly tell you that Equestria operates on Narrative Laws rather than consistent physical laws?

[SiuiS]

Or you know, Earth ponies don't precisely need daylight to make food grow.

These are functionally identical concepts.

I have a few points for the current discussion.

1. We know that crops don't grow in the cold,

We know crops don't grow in winter. Winter is the one of no crops. It's thematic, not necessarily causative. And using real world examples, we get plenty of crops in winter. So either this is wrong because it doesn't have a logical basis or it's wrong based on the knowledge of the real world we have.

and that the sun warms the planet (clearing the skies to let the sun warm up the snow)

Clearing the skies, to let the sun shine in; removing clouds; melt the white snow; all Things the ponies themselves do. The sun doesn't necessarily have anything to do with that at such a huge level. We see the ponies plowing snow, which means they participate in the snow clearing. And Pinkie's breaking up the ice? Ice melts in the sun, duh. But while sun melts ice, we have no reason to think no sun causes ice. Because of one important thing that is so fundamental, no pony Tess to remember it even when it's pointed out.

night time is not a lack of daytime, it is emanated by the moon just like daytime is emanate by the sun. If neither sun not noon rose, it wouldn't be night, it would be some terrible void.

The sky works on a wheel. The night time comes out on the moon, like an aura. So why again is eternal night freezing? Daytime is warm and bright, night is cool as dark. Cool, not cold. The moon could easily emanate its own ambient temperature; and why not? It's as much a sky construct as the sun, and not merely a rock which reflects from the the other side of some horizon.

Unless the moon puts out considerable heat, they would eventually starve because their crops "can't grow in this cold." Evidence from Winter Wrap Up and Heart's Warming Eve.

Considerable heat? No. Sufficient to survive; San Francisco is 'temperate' enough that people are okay with sleeping outdoors, but I still find it butt-ass cold. There's a difference between paradisical and sufficient to allow life to go on. After about a week of fretting, I fully expect hydroponics to become a thing, and everyone to grow their own crops for trading. because hydroponics are within the realm of their technology (complex astronomical telescopes, calculus, film cameras), within the realm of their scientific understanding (Supernaturals, advanced medicinal techniques such as gel capsules), and within realm of reason (eternal night ain't gonna stop no apple from apple-in' I tell you what).

[auote]2. Disharmony is inherently dangerous for Ponykind. It is mentioned in the first episode that keeping the moon in the sky was disharmonious, and disharmony draws Windigos and could have freed Discord. It would be tragic to be NMM and watch Discord snatch your victory from you.[/quote]

You're mincing terms. Disharmony on a natural level throws nature out of whack; disharmony on a social level is what is what caused Windigos. And windigos coming from a global civil strife is different than windigos coming because it's dark and ponies are scared. As long as there are Pinkie Pies to cheer people, groups would shrink, but there would be more of them. Life would go on. This follows from the social interactions we have seen in the show, where disharmony of nature resulting in deep freeze does not.

3. NMM attempted to kill them several times, including dropping them down the side of a cliff. That makes her evil in my book, since she could as easily have grabbed Twilight Sparkle and took her to an island away from the elements.

I didn't say nightmare moon wasn't evil. I said eternal night would not caus the earth's hear to seep into space, killing all crops, causing ice to form and beginning the thermodynamic steps of the planet's destruction.

I just as vehmently disagree.

The sun has more value than just providing illumination. Or are you suggesting that if Celestia went bonkers and went Daymare Sun, there would absolutely no reprecussions of eternal daylight?

Sure there would be. It would be hot - like, 90° F all the time, and that's terrible. Nonpony could sleep. Nocturnal wildlife would go ape**** and riot. Luna would be pissed. Twilight, lacking REM sleep, would eventually go nuclear.

The planet WOULD NOT boil. The atmosphere WOULD NOT burn away. The constant light WOULD NOT evaporate away all moisture. Because daytime is presented as an aura which has certain properties, which are influenced but not ruled by interplay between the seasons. I it was summer when she went Dayflare Sun, it would suck unless you invested in parasols an lemonade stands. If she did it during winter, well, that would be pretty cool except for the snow blindness.

No, sorry, not buying that one even remotely.

That sort of thing must have serious consequences, if it has no ill-effects, if it brings no hardships at all to the civilisations, it renders the whole thing utterly meaningless.

If all eternal night means it that the Elements saved the world from moderate illumination inconvieniance, it devalues their efforts; because they didn't save the world, they merely prevented, I dunno, a slight increase in the number of accidents caused due to poor lighting. That's not exactly the stuff of legends.

Pffffft. Respectfully, shut up and listen to yourself!
"if this one thing is potentially wrong then I'm going to throw the baby out with the bath water" is not a valid argument and I expect better from you, commodore. You say you're an engineer? If we change how conductivity woks, that changes how conductivity works. It does not suddenly unravel all of space time and make life meaningless!

Physics is fine. So long as you take into account established differences. Such as night time not being an absence of daytime. For someone who argued that elemental cold is not merely an absence of heat, this is something I would expect you of all abominably evil creatures to be able to take in stride.

Is assuming, base on visual evidence, that night time is actually an only light radiated by whatever the flick the moon is, and has its own properties other than being 'not daylight anymore' so difficult? No wonder Luna went batty, everypony's thought she had the easy job.

Nightmare moon would be a terrible ruler, ruining the country like a cross between the king from Dragon Tears and Scar from lion king. A reign of evil unparalleled. But not the deep freeze. I take umbridge with satin Dracula ruling the world causes it to e destroyed (literally), not with causing it o be destroyed (figuratively).

And it makes Nightmare Moon a joke on the level of Mr Burns or Silver Age DC villains; a petulant child throwing a tantrum, not a genuinely dangerous and tragically corrupted monster. And that, in turn, makes Luna's redemption hold less value.

She already IS a joke. A spoiled princess with super powers, who on a tantrum so profound it twisted her soul and made her stop holding back. Which is no more a slight change than being filled with negative energy is a slight change; and that's what makes undead evil, is the slight perversion of their viewpoint. You're not 'racially insane' because you're insane, you're 'racially insane' because somethig as camp as a startrek technician reversing your polarity changes you enough to sill be measured by sanity, but fail the test. You o all folks know small changes at the base level cause huge changes. A plane takes off at 20° angles. Too little, no lift. To much, stall and crash. Two degrees isn't much, but it's still huge.

I will grant that it may not cause total extinction, but it WILL have consequences, starting with massive food shortages, especially in the short term. (And you can say goodbye to Sweet Apple Acres, unless someone can figure out how to emulate sunlight pretty damn fast, 'cos green plants need sunlight to grow (sorta notoriously); and if you disregard somethign as fundemental as that, heck, you may as well say ponies really are made of candy and don't actually need to eat except for pleasure or something while you're at it.)

Plants can survive for a Lon time on moonlight. In fact, they REQUIRE darkness as much as sunlight. It changes their metabolic processes, and causes them to take in oxygen and respire carbon dioxide, which is why trees on a space ship is zero sum. Plants can also survive (well, "survive") off of torchlight. At least as well as a human can live off Kraft cheese and doughnuts.

"Magic does it" is not a blanket excuse to totally ignore every single basic fundemental precept of physics.

No, but "Physics except for all the instances where not only would physics destroy this universe but we also had some explanation applied, yet we won't extrapolate because physics" is also not going to cut it.

In a normal scenario, we can assume physics is the baseline. In Equestria, we really can't. So both the magical explanation and the physical one are equally incorrect until one or the other can be backed up. "But I like physics" is not a back up, it's a bias. I your argument holds under is own weight we will accept it, but if it's circular then we won't.

That is an absolute deal-breaker for me. And if that is truly the case, then it's no longer a dynamic, florishing world, it's just a cartoon. It may as well be looney tunes or something, because at that point the content might be amusing, but all the depth, all the substance, all the flavour of the world is gone, leaving it as two-dimensional as cardboard and as stale as month-old muffins.

Unfortunate, but I assume hyperbolic. If night time functions differently because it alone is magic, then nothin matters so lets all abandon ship? You're far more rational than that.

I feel I should point out that, from what I understand, according to Word of Faust NMM's plan would have in fact have killed off Equestria's plant life.

Nope.

Also there was something about a rein of evil over Equestria as well, and I'm fairly sure that would have been bad as well.

Yep. Reign of evil isn't a problem on a mechanical level though. My issue is with people making the fallacious leap from "reign of darkness and evil" to "everything freezes and dies just because".

And I would like to say something heretical.

Word of Faust means jack diddly squat.
It's nice to think about, but either we ignore word of Faust, or we listen to word of Faust - which says itself that it's not worth squat, and so we don't listen to it. It's like having an order to disobey this order. Either you disobey or... You disobey.

Honestly, I tend to agree with you on this. Just because some things in Equestria work differently than in our world is not necessarily proof that other things are different as well. Celestia raising and lowering the sun doesn't mean that plants don't rely on the sun for photosynthesis.

The moon emanates light. Even if it only reflected sunlight, that's enough sunlight since its constant. Eternal full moon, remember? The people making assumptions about chain reactions are the ones saying everything dies and freezes.

Eternal night would also bring disharmony between ponies. It'd be Hearts Warming all over again, ponies would be split, windigos would come, freezing winter.

Even if the lack of sun didn't kill plants, eternal winter would. And no one to save them this time.

why would eternal night being disharmony amongst ponies?
There's no basis for it. It's night time so let's all change alignment? The sun isn't coming up so let's purge the earth of the pegasi menace? Now that wee got no light, blame and lynch the unicorns?

How does eternal night cause ponies to turn on each other enough to bring in Windigos?

[SiuiS]

So because she doesn't say that the lack of sun would mean a lack of nourishment for the plants, that would then mean that nothing changes? Not sure I like where you're going with this as you're opening doors to interpret a lot of things based on what Faust didn't say in there.

I dislike the tendency for Internet arguments to become fencing with hyperbole. I Gould probably stop contributing XD

NMM will kill everypony, because Faust didn't say she was a pacifist.

NOPE! She's going to rule, which means subjects. NMM said that herself, darn near.

NMM will create a harem for herself, because Faust didn't explain whether or not alicorns would want physical affection.

... Eternally romantic moonlight, equestria's national sport becomes colt cuddling.
I'm Really not seeing how this Eternal Night thing is a bad deal...
Do you think she's taking applications? I could spell one of the more burnt-out haremites.

I'm going to assume the world works as intended until explained differently.

Good. But intention and physics aren't synonymous.

Isn't Pinkie always the exception? :P

Gonna agree here. Pinky is not an indication of physical laws.

Okay. Pegasus flight is aerodynamically impossible.

Incorrect...

C'mon guys, didn't the Brony Physics Video teach you anything? You just can't argue that MLP follows remotely the same laws of physics as the real world. The evidence against outweighs the evidence for by an order of magnitude. Are you not scientists? Don't you base your laws on observation rather than bullheaded application of dogma? Doesn't observation clearly tell you that Equestria operates on Narrative Laws rather than consistent physical laws?

Magic.

No, shut up. Not like that.
Pegasus flight is acknowledge as magic. Magi exists. Having a magical flight aid is understandable. Using that to mean nothing is the same is not.

Adding a property we do not have in reality which functions alongside known laws is a linear change. Presuming that everything runs on naritivium is a quadratic change. Such a leap is, as far as discussion goes, unacceptable.

Saying 'narrative so your physics doesn't matter' is as immediately false as 'physics must exist or nothing matters'. Do no fall into the camp you argue with, silly.

While narrative physics is the correct meta answer, it isn't worthwhile for the sale of discussion, which is the point.

[Thanqol]

Magic.

No, shut up. Not like that.
Pegasus flight is acknowledge as magic. Magi exists. Having a magical flight aid is understandable. Using that to mean nothing is the same is not.

I think that's codswallop. I've always hated all the suggestions and implications that pegasus flight runs on magic, and especially the idea that whenever they do a trick they're casting spells. Where's the slightest suggestion that pegasus flight runs on magic rather than muscles and wingpower?

Adding a property we do not have in reality which functions alongside known laws is a linear change. Presuming that everything runs on naritivium is a quadratic change. Such a leap is, as far as discussion goes, unacceptable.

Saying 'narrative so your physics doesn't matter' is as immediately false as 'physics must exist or nothing matters'. Do no fall into the camp you argue with, silly.

While narrative physics is the correct meta answer, it isn't worthwhile for the sale of discussion, which is the point.

Bullocks. Narrative physics is the correct meta answer AND is worthwhile for the sake of discussion because the answer to narrative physics is "Whatever's the most interesting for the story you're trying to tell". So if you've used narrative physics to come up with a boring answer you've by definition failed at using narrative physics.

How can that not promote awesome discussion? Awesome discussion is the reason for existence of it. Applying physics' mathematical laws takes those interesting alternate concept and says 'no' while narrative laws say 'hell yes'. I know which one I'd rather be discussing.

[Merellis]

NOPE! She's going to rule, which means subjects. NMM said that herself, darn near.

I think she should still at least have the brains to kill the Mane6 along with Celestia, the former have the power to banish her again, the latter actually did banish her. Hard to reign when your two biggest enemies are still in a state of existence beyond buried corpse.

... Eternally romantic moonlight, equestria's national sport becomes colt cuddling.
I'm Really not seeing how this Eternal Night thing is a bad deal...
Do you think she's taking applications? I could spell one of the more burnt-out haremites.

... You win this round, as does NMM. Though I still prefer Luna, maybe they both have the same tastes.

Gonna agree here. Pinky is not an indication of physical laws.

I just point out her beating Rainbow Dash to every spot she was going to, by being behind her and then just being there.

Magic.

No, shut up. Not like that.
Pegasus flight is acknowledge as magic. Magi exists. Having a magical flight aid is understandable. Using that to mean nothing is the same is not.

Adding a property we do not have in reality which functions alongside known laws is a linear change. Presuming that everything runs on naritivium is a quadratic change. Such a leap is, as far as discussion goes, unacceptable.

Saying 'narrative so your physics doesn't matter' is as immediately false as 'physics must exist or nothing matters'. Do no fall into the camp you argue with, silly.

While narrative physics is the correct meta answer, it isn't worthwhile for the sale of discussion, which is the point.

This I can agree with, it's hard to discuss anything on the show if we all just answer with "Eh, it's a kids show so nothing bad will really happen." It kinda detracts from the show in a way that we've seen that bad things can happen. Hydra's that are trying to eat ponies, Diamond Dogs kidnapping ponies, a Cockatrice turning ponies to stone, GATES TO TARTURUS WITH A GUARD DOG, Changlings, Ursa Major, Dragons... Dragons, and Dragons. Heck, avalanches, rock slides, falling to your death, famine, freezing to death from Windigo's, war between races of ponies, some form of racism as well.

As happy a place Equestria is, it's still dangerous, deadly, and filled with horrors.

[SiuiS]

I think that's codswallop. I've always hated all the suggestions and implications that pegasus flight runs on magic, and especially the idea that whenever they do a trick they're casting spells. Where's the slightest suggestion that pegasus flight runs on magic rather than muscles and wingpower?

Premise: all ponies are magic.

1/3 have magical telekinesis and favored class: sorcerer.
1/3 have magical affinity with like, nature, man.
The remaining third can fly, despite lacking the build, musculature and speed fr it. This remaining third is also magical, in ways related to the sky (such as rainbows and weather).

Sure, we can assume wing power is how they fly - despite wingpower being insufficient for them to fly and that we have to hand wave it. or we can acknowledge that the chances of them catching both wind, and magical thermal currents, is greater than zero in a world with ambient magic and a race of magical winged ponies. That's less codswollop and more 'rather sound'.

Spells? As tricks? You know magic can exist outside of spells, right? That's like assuming because a thing makes noise it has language.

Bullocks. Narrative physics is the correct meta answer AND is worthwhile for the sake of discussion because the answer to narrative physics is "Whatever's the most interesting for the story you're trying to tell". So if you've used narrative physics to come up with a boring answer you've by definition failed at using narrative physics.

How can that not promote awesome discussion? Awesome discussion is the reason for existence of it. Applying physics' mathematical laws takes those interesting alternate concept and says 'no' while narrative laws say 'hell yes'. I know which one I'd rather be discussing.

Sticking to what makes sense gives a formula which can be followed outward to find new an interesting interstices in the matrix designed by these rules as we understand them, and allows for further study of 'why' when the interactions do not play out as expected.

Sticking to narativism means jack all, because a Ali's response to anything is haddock. And when thr doesn't make sense, you could just say its a comedy. It's the problem espoused with free form RP; no rules means nothing of importance matters. "it's cool" is not sufficient to explain anything within a discussion hm "it's cool" is allowed to apply to everything. You'd hve to start your premise with "let's assume this one thing because it's cool", otherwise the discussion wouldn't do anything or go anywhere. And that implicitly means we are assuming everything else is static and as is currently confirmed.

As discourse goes, it defeats itself because there is no stable reference.

[Thanqol]

This I can agree with, it's hard to discuss anything on the show if we all just answer with "Eh, it's a kids show so nothing bad will really happen." It kinda detracts from the show in a way that we've seen that bad things can happen. Hydra's that are trying to eat ponies, Diamond Dogs kidnapping ponies, a Cockatrice turning ponies to stone, GATES TO TARTURUS WITH A GUARD DOG, Changlings, Ursa Major, Dragons... Dragons, and Dragons. Heck, avalanches, rock slides, falling to your death, famine, freezing to death from Windigo's, war between races of ponies, some form of racism as well.

As happy a place Equestria is, it's still dangerous, deadly, and filled with horrors.

Urgh, you're missing the point. If you're writing a grimdark story, you can make a set of grimdark assumptions, and use those details to tell a good story. That is a valid application of narrative laws. The laws of physics would tell you that a dragon does not have an appropriate weight/wingspan ratio to maintain flight therefore you can't have it in your story.

When we're discussing a fantasy story in a dimension where things clearly operate on fantasy settings. That doesn't mean the settings are inherently benevolent. It means 'screw reality, let's tell a good story'.

[Merellis]

Urgh, you're missing the point. If you're writing a grimdark story, you can make a set of grimdark assumptions, and use those details to tell a good story. That is a valid application of narrative laws. The laws of physics would tell you that a dragon does not have an appropriate weight/wingspan ratio to maintain flight therefore you can't have it in your story.

When we're discussing a fantasy story in a dimension where things clearly operate on fantasy settings. That doesn't mean the settings are inherently benevolent. It means 'screw reality, let's tell a good story'.

I'm not even sure what point I was making anymore. Excuse the rambling idiot that I am, again. I always end up rambling like a blathering idiot, so I must have missed the point and then just jumped into some other idiocy with my words. Sorry you even had to read that nonsensical crap from me.

[Thanqol]

Premise: all ponies are magic.

I reject your premise.

1/3 have magical affinity with like, nature, man.

I reject this premise. The earth ponies have no magical affinity with anything.

The remaining third can fly, despite lacking the build, musculature and speed fr it. This remaining third is also magical, in ways related to the sky (such as rainbows and weather).

I reject this premise. This is a principle of the universe rather than an aspect of the pegasus ponies. Lots of things other than ponies that shouldn't be able to fly can fly.

Sure, we can assume wing power is how they fly - despite wingpower being insufficient for them to fly and that we have to hand wave it. or we can acknowledge that the chances of them catching both wind, and magical thermal currents, is greater than zero in a world with ambient magic and a race of magical winged ponies. That's less codswollop and more 'rather sound'.

No it's not. That's nonsense.

Spells? As tricks? You know magic can exist outside of spells, right? That's like assuming because a thing makes noise it has language.

Sophistry.

Sticking to narativism means jack all, because a Ali's response to anything is haddock. And when thr doesn't make sense, you could just say its a comedy. It's the problem espoused with free form RP; no rules means nothing of importance matters. "it's cool" is not sufficient to explain anything within a discussion hm "it's cool" is allowed to apply to everything. You'd hve to start your premise with "let's assume this one thing because it's cool", otherwise the discussion wouldn't do anything or go anywhere. And that implicitly means we are assuming everything else is static and as is currently confirmed.

As discourse goes, it defeats itself because there is no stable reference.

There is stable reference. Tonnes of it! Things fall down, weather is made in factories, magical pony princesses raising the sun and moon, etc.

Trying to add a sublayer of reference to those aspects of reality in the form of physical laws, despite clear and repeated violation of that sublayer in every episode is being needlessly obtuse and unimaginative.


EDIT: Put it this way: I don't enter your physics conferences and tell you that black holes are ascended Forces Mages who have accumulated sufficient gnosis to achieve infinite potential locked within their physical forms, you don't tell me that the characters in my stories are going to inadvertently inflict a genocide on all living things, that they would know this if they had any sense, and are therefore horrible monsters.

[SiuiS]

I think she should still at least have the brains to kill the Mane6 along with Celestia, the former have the power to banish her again, the latter actually did banish her. Hard to reign when your two biggest enemies are still in a state of existence beyond buried corpse.

Of course. Murder your enemies is understandable. Ending all Creation is not. That's my point.

Although I think he just banished Celestia. She was a creature of passion, and Eye for Eye seems fitting. Plus it lets us do an alternate universe like in Owens of the five rings, a thousand years of darkness.

This I can agree with, it's hard to discuss anything on the show if we all just answer with "Eh, it's a kids show so nothing bad will really happen." It kinda detracts from the show in a way that we've seen that bad things can happen. Hydra's that are trying to eat ponies, Diamond Dogs kidnapping ponies, a Cockatrice turning ponies to stone, GATES TO TARTURUS WITH A GUARD DOG, Changlings, Ursa Major, Dragons... Dragons, and Dragons. Heck, avalanches, rock slides, falling to your death, famine, freezing to death from Windigo's, war between races of ponies, some form of racism as well.

As happy a place Equestria is, it's still dangerous, deadly, and filled with horrors.

With one caveat; the background positivity is sufficient that a murderous three headed dog guarding horrors beyond comprehension is much less dangerous than the same would be in a different reality. Rockslides are less lethal. There is ALWAYS a ray of hope. It's a feature of the cosmology, not just a narrative artifact.

Urgh, you're missing the point. If you're writing a grimdark story, you can make a set of grimdark assumptions, and use those details to tell a good story. That is a valid application of narrative laws. The laws of physics would tell you that a dragon does not have an appropriate weight/wingspan ratio to maintain flight therefore you can't have it in your story.

When we're discussing a fantasy story in a dimension where things clearly operate on fantasy settings. That doesn't mean the settings are inherently benevolent. It means 'screw reality, let's tell a good story'.

Hyperbole. A dragon can exist by modifying physics, just as much a by tossing physics out the window.

I agree with your general point though. I fear I'll hve to concede as I won't be able to argue coherently past this point, with you specifically.

[Soras Teva Gee]

...You, I think, I will have to agree to disagree with, because I don't have the time or patience to try arguing with someone who says "[x], therefore no physics." I will, therefore, only say that I believe your conclusions to be flat wrong.

We're actually going to go to "it's magic, so physics are completely irrelevant?"

You both underestimate the sheer impossibility of ponies raising the sun and moon. This simple stated truth with visible evidence of destroys the entire stucture of the universe. This isn't "its magic so ignore physics" its magic making physics a scientific impossibility.

The Heliocentric solar system is the inevitable and only concievable result of a universe ruled by gravity. When the heliocentric model is verifiably untrue (unless you submit the Princess's and shows lie to our faces) it can only mean gravity does not function as it does. And yet gravity is the only thing that allows a star to exist in the first place, even keeping the other fundamental forces unchanged one must, MUST, have gravity for the mass of the star to hold in equilibrium and be stable. Never mind that gravity is the only force with the range sufficient to actually gather mass in any amounts.

It is effectively the sole architect of the entire universe. Change it and you must, MUST, change the entire universe.

Ponies walking on the soil of Equestria alone is completely incompatible with their own stated practice. I cannot accept such a massive change and rule that ANYTHING even remotely like physics rules the Equestrian universe. If it can be observed to still be so in a coincidental or concurrent manner that is one thing, but it should not be assumed without a solid base of observations.

(Or of course you can say the Unicorns, Princesses, and show are lying to our face)

I think that's codswallop. I've always hated all the suggestions and implications that pegasus flight runs on magic, and especially the idea that whenever they do a trick they're casting spells. Where's the slightest suggestion that pegasus flight runs on magic rather than muscles and wingpower?

Its magic from the perspective of a physics based reality. It may not be considered magic in Equestria the same way psionics are not considered magic in other settings. Such a thing can be meaningful in universe but from a physics perspective they are both magical occurences.

Compare the relative area of a hang glider next to human. Now these are little ponies if perspective comparison is to be believed, but there is not a pegasi with the area needed to provide lift.

Scootaloo with Luna's wings is more like it.

Even then having legs where you need powerful breast muscles doesn't exactly help, so give Scoots a bulging chest too. And then she could maybe fly.

Certainly not hover though.

[SiuiS]

I'm not even sure what point I was making anymore. Excuse the rambling idiot that I am, again. I always end up rambling like a blathering idiot, so I must have missed the point and then just jumped into some other idiocy with my words. Sorry you even had to read that nonsensical crap from me.

Now now, none of that. There are like, five different discussions here. It's natural that things will get muddled, but passive aggressiveness won't help. friendship is never having to pull your punches, but that doesn't mean we aren't friends at the end of the day.

I reject your premise.

Your rejection is meaningless. The universe was designed around magical ponies. Saying you don't like it just means you're working from a noncanonical point of view.

I reject this premise. The earth ponies have no magical affinity with anything.

Your rejection is still meaningless.

I reject this premise. This is a principle of the universe rather than an aspect of the pegasus ponies. Lots of things other than ponies that shouldn't be able to fly can fly.

And are also magic, in the magical land of Equestria. I've already said, "I don't like it" does not a rebuttal make.

No it's not. That's nonsense.

Prove it? Makes perfect sense, you're just hung up on your dogma.
Practicing and preaching, Thanqol my dear ;)

Sophistry.

An argument that holds, based on an argument you don't like (but cannot disprove) is less fallacious and more in contention. Do something about it other than casually dismiss it, if it bothers you. Your lumping spells in under magic invalidates your stance; magic exists conceptually outside of spells. It is the art of practiced serendipity. Dismissing that just means you haven't done your homework, not that I'm splitting artificial hairs.

There is stable reference. Tonnes of it! Things fall down, weather is made in factories, magical pony princesses raising the sun and moon, etc.

Trying to add a sublayer of reference to those aspects of reality in the form of physical laws, despite clear and repeated violation of that sublayer in every episode is being needlessly obtuse and unimaginative.

Unimaginative, nothing. Sussing out a workin paradigm in this view is the height of imagination - spinning a compete out of tiny whims. And outing on blinders to focus on specific instances append all the time. Like this friend of mine who's learning to draw? He sacrifices past lessons to focus on current ones all the time. Basic anatomy goofs while working on composition. That's actually part o the process. Not liking it doesn't make it bad.

[Thanqol]

Your rejection is meaningless. The universe was designed around magical ponies. Saying you don't like it just means you're working from a noncanonical point of view.

Magic is a quantifiable thing that Unicorns do. Twilight Sparkle soapboxes about this. Non unicorn magic is dismissed as a myth and a hoax.

R.E. Pinkie Pie Exceptionalism: It's not clear what this is, but it's not magic.

And are also magic, in the magical land of Equestria. I've already said, "I don't like it" does not a rebuttal make.

Would I be correct in stating your point as:

"The laws of physics as we humans understand them all completely and fully apply to Equestria, except for the fact that they are overridden with magic in every second of every day"?

I feel pretty reasonable in saying that's a damn silly idea.

An argument that holds, based on an argument you don't like (but cannot disprove) is less fallacious and more in contention. Do something about it other than casually dismiss it, if it bothers you. Your lumping spells in under magic invalidates your stance; magic exists conceptually outside of spells. It is the art of practiced serendipity. Dismissing that just means you haven't done your homework, not that I'm splitting artificial hairs.

Again, magic is a quantifiable thing done by unicorns.

Unimaginative, nothing. Sussing out a workin paradigm in this view is the height of imagination - spinning a compete out of tiny whims. And outing on blinders to focus on specific instances append all the time. Like this friend of mine who's learning to draw? He sacrifices past lessons to focus on current ones all the time. Basic anatomy goofs while working on composition. That's actually part o the process. Not liking it doesn't make it bad.

You're going about it ass backwards. Say, "Here is the show, here are the things that happen in the show, how can we produce consistent laws from that?" is one thing. Saying "Here is the show, here is a complex worldview built for simulating a reality completely unrelated to that of the show, how can we shoehorn the complex worldview into the show?" is quite another.

[maximus25]

why would eternal night being disharmony amongst ponies?
There's no basis for it. It's night time so let's all change alignment? The sun isn't coming up so let's purge the earth of the pegasi menace? Now that wee got no light, blame and lynch the unicorns?

How does eternal night cause ponies to turn on each other enough to bring in Windigos?

It's not just eternal night. Ponies everywhere rely on Celestia for guidance, now she's gone, presumably banished to the sun. With eternal night also comes NMM. She'd probably cause some disharmony, and if not her, Discord would break free pretty easily, he was coming out anyway.

Everything would just cascade into each other, a domino effect.

[Kd7sov]

I think that's codswallop. I've always hated all the suggestions and implications that pegasus flight runs on magic, and especially the idea that whenever they do a trick they're casting spells. Where's the slightest suggestion that pegasus flight runs on magic rather than muscles and wingpower?

First suggestion: unaided earth ponies and unicorns have displayed no ability to fly or glide, even when falling with all limbs outstretched (see: Applebuck Season). Therefore, the surface area of pegasus wings is insufficient, in itself, to produce observed flight effects.

Second suggestion: a spell for magical flight specifically and additionally grants Rarity the ability to cloudwalk (and yes, she does walk occasionally rather than fly). Not compelling on its own, I admit, but the correlation is worth noticing.

Third suggestion: clouds. We have observed multiple pegasi, on multiple occasions, interact with clouds as though they were a malleable solid such as wet clay. We have never seen a non-enchanted unicorn or earth pony do so. We have, indeed, encountered the implication that they cannot. But, you may say, what if pegasi are just that low-density? I will point you to Dragonshy, in which Rainbow Dash kicked a dragon - who had previously exhaled with enough force to push Twilight Sparkle backward some distance, and appeared to have absolutely no trouble manipulating what appears to be golden treasure - hard enough to visibly vibrate its head. Additionally, I point you to Hurricane Fluttershy, in which Fluttershy is at one point blown backward into Twilight's anemometer, with Spike in between. She is not visibly deformed, but Spike appears to feel quite a bit of force from the impact.

[INoKnowNames]

[Kd7sov]

You both underestimate the sheer impossibility of ponies raising the sun and moon. This simple stated truth with visible evidence of destroys the entire stucture of the universe. This isn't "its magic so ignore physics" its magic making physics a scientific impossibility.

The Heliocentric solar system is the inevitable and only concievable result of a universe ruled by gravity. When the heliocentric model is verifiably untrue (unless you submit the Princess's and shows lie to our faces) it can only mean gravity does not function as it does. And yet gravity is the only thing that allows a star to exist in the first place, even keeping the other fundamental forces unchanged one must, MUST, have gravity for the mass of the star to hold in equilibrium and be stable. Never mind that gravity is the only force with the range sufficient to actually gather mass in any amounts.

It is effectively the sole architect of the entire universe. Change it and you must, MUST, change the entire universe.

Ponies walking on the soil of Equestria alone is completely incompatible with their own stated practice. I cannot accept such a massive change and rule that ANYTHING even remotely like physics rules the Equestrian universe. If it can be observed to still be so in a coincidental or concurrent manner that is one thing, but it should not be assumed without a solid base of observations.

(Or of course you can say the Unicorns, Princesses, and show are lying to our face)

Or I can open myself to the idea that the object to which ponies refer as "the sun" is not a 1.4-million-kilometer, 2x10^30-kg object, but perhaps some smaller, nearer, cooler thing. Yes, such an interpretation does not immediately and obviously correlate to anything in our current understanding of real-world physics, but it allows for the possibility that gravity is not necessarily as relevant as you insist.

[SiuiS]

Magic is a quantifiable thing that Unicorns do. Twilight Sparkle soapboxes about this. Non unicorn magic is dismissed as a myth and a hoax.

Magic is an energy used by unicorns to perform magic in their magical universe, here stage magicians perform magic tricks and famous wizards cast magic spells while philosophers and scientists study the magic of emotional and sociological aspects.

Twilight got on a soapbox and said [science] is a thing [scientists] do and [nonscientists] can never do [science] no matter how [scientific] their actions may seem. There is an alternate [magical] explanation for it.

Twilight is not as definitive on te subject of we own creation as her creator is, your Jayden/Charger/Mask triangle aside.

R.E. Pinkie Pie Exceptionalism: It's not clear what this is, but it's not magic.

I agree.

Would I be correct in stating your point as:

"The laws of physics as we humans understand them all completely and fully apply to Equestria, except for the fact that they are overridden with magic in every second of every day"?

No, that's taking it to the furthest possible logical conclusion in order to invalidate it by comparing it to a similar, silly caricature of itself. my arguments (small a) against your Argument do not constitute an Argument in themselves. I haven't and probably cannot state my view coherently, but suffice te possibilities are not binary enough for you to say "your idea is dumber so we are going with mine".

Again, magic is a quantifiable thing done by unicorns.

Magic is also much more than that. A bullet is a point on paper. Doesn't mean they aren't also fired out of guns or a shape. Temperature is how hot or cold something is. It is also a scale of energy input compared to entropy in an open or close system; the two don't intersect as you would expect, wherein a system having a negative temperature is actually hot as ****.

You're going about it ass backwards.

You are insisting I am doing it backwards. This does not mean I am.

"Here is the show, here are the things that happen in the show, how can we produce consistent laws from that?"

Is what I'm doing, and trying to make sure very one else does as well.

"Here is the show, here is a complex worldview built for simulating a reality completely unrelated to that of the show, how can we shoehorn the complex worldview into the show?"

is a pastiche of disparate arguments for different things, and is not representative of any of the arguments I have made. It may look that way on a small scale, but I am acting holistically and including ALL OF THE INFORMATION we have, and not just the little bits that have been presented. If we ignore the entire body of data and focus on small points, then we will of course come to different conclusions due to that artificial vacuum. the first step, which we are currently in, is clearing out that vacuum and seeing what survives the process. Ignoring that will of course lead you to derive false conclusions.

[Dexam]

Third suggestion: clouds. We have observed multiple pegasi, on multiple occasions, interact with clouds as though they were a malleable solid such as wet clay. We have never seen a non-enchanted unicorn or earth pony do so. We have, indeed, encountered the implication that they cannot.

OBJECTION!

- In Return of Harmony Part 1 (S02E01), Applejack lassos a cotton-candy chocolate milk raincloud.
- In Baby Cakes (S02E13), Pinkie Pie nurses a small cloud in a diaper when the Cakes are trying to convince Rainbow Dash to babysit.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled pony.

[One Tin Soldier]

I don't get how you ponies can play through so quickly.

Because this is how I've been spending all my spare time. Seriously, I need to stop or else I'll start getting behind on my schoolwork.


Well, this physics/magic/whatever debate is getting rather... heated. As far as my headcanon goes, I subscribe to the idea of each race having its own innate magic, though the ponies themselves might not refer to it as such. (Which is why they might say only unicorns have "magic." By "magic" they mean spellcasting.)

The thing is, the easiest explanation is that its a cartoon, and it is the type of cartoon that exaggerates things for the sake of visual gags and drama. In the real world, eternal night (or eternal day, for that matter) would be completely unlivable. See: Mercury. But I am 90% sure that the writers/animators/creators didn't have a complex cosmology in mind while doing these gags, they just make it up as they go.

That's not to say that you shouldn't make headcanons about this stuff. I know I enjoy it. But there's always going to be inconsistencies which support one idea or the other, so maybe everypony should take a teensy step back.

[Kd7sov]

OBJECTION!

- In Return of Harmony Part 1 (S02E01), Applejack lassos a cotton-candy chocolate milk raincloud.
- In Baby Cakes (S02E13), Pinkie Pie nurses a small cloud in a diaper when the Cakes are trying to convince Rainbow Dash to babysit.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled pony.

OBJECTION! (And where's a Miles Edgeworth ponymote when you need one...?)

Your point 1 is explicitly relevant to Discord. Discord is rather famous for disrupting the standard workings of Equestria, and therefore this evidence is not relevant to the current considerations.

Your point 2 is explicitly relevant to Pinkie Pie, who excepts herself from several types of normality. Any expectations based on "Pinkie Pie did..." are suspect.

[SiuiS]

It's not just eternal night. Ponies everywhere rely on Celestia for guidance, now she's gone, presumably banished to the sun. With eternal night also comes NMM. She'd probably cause some disharmony, and if not her, Discord would break free pretty easily, he was coming out anyway.

Everything would just cascade into each other, a domino effect.

Some disharmony I can see, but everything I've seen about how ponies interact tells me, unless they are potted against each other by an outside force (assuming the racism of the past has entirely dissapeared), they will stabilize their society far before windigos levels. As for discord; who knows? He may not have been an inevitability. He may have been the one who orchestrated it all. Appropriately, the chaos spirit is too variable to really be able to take into account.

Or I can open myself to the idea that the object to which ponies refer as "the sun" is not a 1.4-million-kilometer, 2x10^30-kg object, but perhaps some smaller, nearer, cooler thing. Yes, such an interpretation does not immediately and obviously correlate to anything in our current understanding of real-world physics, but it allows for the possibility that gravity is not necessarily as relevant as you insist.

this... Doesn't work. In fact, it proves his point, as it still requires gravity not to work, which causes a chain reaction of logical understanding. You hve to agree with him - that physics doesn't matter a lick at that point - in order to argue the sun is something else but the universe is still open space and heliocentric.

I may be wrong though. It sits odd in my head.

And, is this getting heated? Intense, but heated always implied emotional upset to me. Ah well. I vote to belay further arguments until tomorrow (my time; so about fifteen hours, or so) in order to give anything else breathing room.

All in favor?

[otakuryoga]

OBJECTION!

OBJECTION! Overruled

- In Return of Harmony Part 1 (S02E01), Applejack lassos a cotton-candy chocolate milk raincloud.

Chocolate Filled Cotton Candy clouds are NOT normal clouds.

- In Baby Cakes (S02E13), Pinkie Pie nurses a small cloud in a diaper when the Cakes are trying to convince Rainbow Dash to babysit.

Pinkie Pie is outside the laws of physics..real, cartoon,imaginary, and any other type

bah...Pinkie'd by a post made as i was catching up and didn't see when i started this one 8(

[Kd7sov]

this... Doesn't work. In fact, it proves his point, as it still requires gravity not to work, which causes a chain reaction of logical understanding. You hve to agree with him - that physics doesn't matter a lick at that point - in order to argue the sun is something else but the universe is still open space and heliocentric.

Wait, what? I thought I was arguing against a heliocentric ponyverse. I don't see a way you can fit "[pony or set of ponies] raises the sun" into the same worldview as "planet orbits the sun".

Possibly I'm also too tired.

And, is this getting heated? Intense, but heated always implied emotional upset to me. Ah well. I vote to belay further arguments until tomorrow (my time; so about fifteen hours, or so) in order to give anything else breathing room.

All in favor?

Aye!

[Soras Teva Gee]

Or I can open myself to the idea that the object to which ponies refer as "the sun" is not a 1.4-million-kilometer, 2x10^30-kg object, but perhaps some smaller, nearer, cooler thing. Yes, such an interpretation does not immediately and obviously correlate to anything in our current understanding of real-world physics, but it allows for the possibility that gravity is not necessarily as relevant as you insist.

Still largely doesn't work.

Even taking Equestria's mass as sufficient to create a geocentric system there still is no raising and lowering going on. Earth has such a miniature system with the Moon already. This helps somewhat with scale of forces needed but every but the problem is still there conceptually.

Quite aside from whatever that makes the sun it is not a miasma of incandescent plasma. I suspect if I was an astronomer I could probably also say that the moon should not work with such an object. I seem to remember the distances and sizes involved being directly demanded by geometry. Though we don't know certain measures for sure so this is perhaps escapable.

Of course this still requires an object of sufficient magical existence to make me challenge physic's existence on it alone. Since the sun you suppose certainly is no star. Perhaps two magical objects if I'm right about the moon.

The sheer amount of forces needed to stop/start such celestial masses...

[Thanqol]

All right, let's settle this. Applebucking style.

OBSERVATION: Applebucking causes apples to fall from trees while the leaves stay fixed where they are.

OBSERVATION: In Fall Weather Friends, a herd of galloping ponies can cause a forest's worth of leaves to fall.

HYPOTHESIS 1: When Applejack kicks a tree, she channels some of her inherent magical energy ("AppleQuarks") into the tree, magically fixing the leaves in place while severing the stems holding apples in place. When she participates in the Running of the Leaves she can channel her AppleQuarks in a different manner to shake loose the leaves instead.

Other types of ponies also have access to AppleQuarks and can use them to achieve similar effects (Flim Flam Brothers). When a pony or dragon randomly strikes a tree, causing leaves and twigs to shake loose (Dragon Quest) they are not channelling AppleQuarks in the same way. When the CMC fail to pick Zap Apples, this is because their AppleQuark Energy is insufficient to deal with the magically resistant energy of the Zap Apples. This excess of magical energy also allows the Zap Apple Trees to defy the laws of composition and structure, allowing it to bend like a rubber band.

When Applejack used a tree branch to catapult herself forwards in Fall Weather Friends she was using her AppleQuark energy to enhance the tree branch with magical elasticity, allowing her to propel herself dramatically through the air fast enough to not immediately crash into the ground despite her non-aerodynamic, wingless form. Applejack suffers no ill effects from this sudden acceleration, perhaps due to some other type of magic.

If a human being visitor from another reality tried any of these tricks they would fail due to his lack of AppleQuarks.

OR

HYPOTHESIS 2: The laws of physics as we understand them do not apply.

[Dexam]

OBJECTION! (And where's a Miles Edgeworth ponymote when you need one...?)

Your point 1 is explicitly relevant to Discord. Discord is rather famous for disrupting the standard workings of Equestria, and therefore this evidence is not relevant to the current considerations.

OBJECTION! Overruled

Chocolate Filled Cotton Candy clouds are NOT normal clouds.

COUNTER: Twilight Sparkle specifically states: "Applejack, I need you to bring those high-strung storm clouds down to Earth." At this point in time she has no idea of Discord or how he works. If there's no expectation that non-pegasi can interact with clouds, why would she even suggest it?

Your point 2 is explicitly relevant to Pinkie Pie, who excepts herself from several types of normality. Any expectations based on "Pinkie Pie did..." are suspect.

Pinkie Pie is outside the laws of physics..real, cartoon,imaginary, and any other type

COUNTER: Kd7sov specifically stated "...a non-enchanted unicorn or earth pony". Are we to infer then that Pinkie Pie is enchanted or magical?

[Tvtyrant]

These are functionally identical concepts.



We know crops don't grow in winter. Winter is the one of no crops. It's thematic, not necessarily causative. And using real world examples, we get plenty of crops in winter. So either this is wrong because it doesn't have a logical basis or it's wrong based on the knowledge of the real world we have.



Clearing the skies, to let the sun shine in; removing clouds; melt the white snow; all Things the ponies themselves do. The sun doesn't necessarily have anything to do with that at such a huge level. We see the ponies plowing snow, which means they participate in the snow clearing. And Pinkie's breaking up the ice? Ice melts in the sun, duh. But while sun melts ice, we have no reason to think no sun causes ice. Because of one important thing that is so fundamental, no pony Tess to remember it even when it's pointed out.

night time is not a lack of daytime, it is emanated by the moon just like daytime is emanate by the sun. If neither sun not noon rose, it wouldn't be night, it would be some terrible void.

The sky works on a wheel. The night time comes out on the moon, like an aura. So why again is eternal night freezing? Daytime is warm and bright, night is cool as dark. Cool, not cold. The moon could easily emanate its own ambient temperature; and why not? It's as much a sky construct as the sun, and not merely a rock which reflects from the the other side of some horizon.



Considerable heat? No. Sufficient to survive; San Francisco is 'temperate' enough that people are okay with sleeping outdoors, but I still find it butt-ass cold. There's a difference between paradisical and sufficient to allow life to go on. After about a week of fretting, I fully expect hydroponics to become a thing, and everyone to grow their own crops for trading. because hydroponics are within the realm of their technology (complex astronomical telescopes, calculus, film cameras), within the realm of their scientific understanding (Supernaturals, advanced medicinal techniques such as gel capsules), and within realm of reason (eternal night ain't gonna stop no apple from apple-in' I tell you what).

[auote]2. Disharmony is inherently dangerous for Ponykind. It is mentioned in the first episode that keeping the moon in the sky was disharmonious, and disharmony draws Windigos and could have freed Discord. It would be tragic to be NMM and watch Discord snatch your victory from you.

You're mincing terms. Disharmony on a natural level throws nature out of whack; disharmony on a social level is what is what caused Windigos. And windigos coming from a global civil strife is different than windigos coming because it's dark and ponies are scared. As long as there are Pinkie Pies to cheer people, groups would shrink, but there would be more of them. Life would go on. This follows from the social interactions we have seen in the show, where disharmony of nature resulting in deep freeze does not.



I didn't say nightmare moon wasn't evil. I said eternal night would not caus the earth's hear to seep into space, killing all crops, causing ice to form and beginning the thermodynamic steps of the planet's destruction.
[/QUOTE]

Your arguing with the actual show here. Applejack says "we can't grow in this cold," not "we can't grow in winter." And we know from Heart Warming's Eve that they couldn't grow in the snows from the Windigos as well, so it is more than just winter. I'm using the show here, you using RL examples does nothing to support your argument that Equestria isn't like Earth.

Now whether the sun is what is heating the planet or not is up to you, but we have an order of operations for melting snow.
1. They move the snow to where it can safely melt, and cut the ice so it melts into small pieces.
2. They clear the sky and let the sun out.
3. A brilliant show of sunlight blazing down is shown, and the ice melted.

Moreover, we see the overcast sky in both episodes. And the clouds break and let sunshine through to melt the snow (once magically, once by the Pegasi moving the clouds).

To your "mincing words" about disharmony, I find it a little disingenuous that rather than addressing my point that disharmony has been shown to lead to terrible consequences, you instead attacked one of my examples of this happening on the grounds that it was the wrong "type" of disharmony.