League of Legends XXXIX: Harrowing in the Playground

[TheShrike]

You folks keep mentioning that Trundle never goes top, etc. I'd like to mention a recent game of mine where I actually ran Trundle top vs. Jax. Sure, Trundle with farm offers less than many other bruisers with farm, but I'd say a Trundle with 120 farm offers more than Jax with 20 (who is also being denied xp).

Also having played Trundle top against a Lee Sin, you either sit in his minion wave and force him to walk in range of you to CS (thus landing really easy AA+Q+Pillar trades) or make sure you only Pillar when he doesn't have a minion wave arriving.

Lastly, Jax with a full dueling build is stronger than Trundle with a full dueling build in terms of dueling. Jax with a normal, SR build is basically a dueling build, so he's still stupid. Trundle with a full SR build has to turn down a lot of dueling power in favour of annoying AD carries and not dying, therefore getting tankier and having more CDR.

[Forrestfire]

Guys, I just got destroyed by an AD Lulu/Sona bot lane as Blitz/Draven. We still won only because Shen and akali got super fed, but still, she was scary. I remember she rushed a ionic spark and beserkers greaves early on. Her finaly build was

-Beserkers Greaves
-Wits End
-Ionic Spark
-Infinity's Edge
-Triforce
-Guardian Angel

Can you guys help me figure out the best way to reverse engineer this build? It was really impressive and I would like to try it out sometime.

Wow, spark + Sona Q must have given them a lot of pushing power.

What I see here is a build that does a fair amount of mixed damage, with a 40% critical chance.

I actually really want to try spark on Sona.

EDIT: This is possibly the coolest idea I've ever seen on the League forums.

[Godskook]

Guys, I just got destroyed by an AD Lulu/Sona bot lane as Blitz/Draven. We still won only because Shen and akali got super fed, but still, she was scary. I remember she rushed a ionic spark and beserkers greaves early on. Her finaly build was

-Beserkers Greaves
-Wits End
-Ionic Spark
-Infinity's Edge
-Triforce
-Guardian Angel

Can you guys help me figure out the best way to reverse engineer this build? It was really impressive and I would like to try it out sometime.

Lulu has Health steroids(Ult and shield), combined with resists(Wit's+GA), she's unusually tanky by herself(More Wit's, since GA shows up on carries already). Wit's+ISpark provide synergistic DPS with each other and her passive. IE and Trinity Force provide massive single-slot damage items.

Not the same DPS of a traditional AD build, but enough survivability that she'd be able to survive positionings that'd kill most other carries.

I wouldn't recommend using it, if for no other reason than that ISpark is getting pulled in S3(so no point learning what's going to be gone).

--------------------------------

In other news, I got enough IP that I can afford to buy a 3150 champ and still get Zed when he comes out(assuming its not like...tomorrow).

My choices:

Zilean

Karma, LeBlanc, Lux, Urgot, Kassadin, Anivia, Twitch, Rammus, Corki, Katarina, Karthus, Xin Zhao

(That's every 3150 or cheaper champ I don't own.)

I've got most roles covered reasonably well(AD Carry is probably my worst covered, at only Ashe, Caitlyn, Kog'Maw, Miss Fortune, Sivir, Twitch and Vayne). I'll also accept "wait to buy a 4800 or 6300" as a vote, since at 61 champs currently, I really am in no hurry.

[Chess435]

League of Legends XV: Season 3 on hold 'till Morello gets Gold.

[Math_Mage]

Just wanna thank efdf for that game again, because I followed it with a pair of convincing wins over our IvyLoL opponents in open league playoffs. Next is CalTech.

That Void Invasion concept reminds me of watching friends play WC3 mods in high school. I'd totally enjoy that.

[Godskook]

League of Legends XV: Season 3 on hold 'till Morello gets Gold.

And now there's pop on my laptop. Thanks, Chess435.

EDIT: This is possibly the coolest idea I've ever seen on the League forums.

It sounds cool, but the problem is that League of Legends is, primarily, a pvp game, and Co-op modes, in my experience, make new players bad at this game. Combined with the fact that this concept is not based on pvp gameplay, and I don't think this would be healthy for the game as a whole, despite sounding really cool.

[JKTrickster]

Thanks for all the tips on Shen! Really insightful!

I heard that Attack Speed Marks are better than Magic Pen Marks if you use 21/9/0 masteries.

I'm currently using 0/21/9 Masteries, focusing on Movement speed in Utility tree. Is it that much of an improvement?

[Math_Mage]

It sounds cool, but the problem is that League of Legends is, primarily, a pvp game, and Co-op modes, in my experience, make new players bad at this game. Combined with the fact that this concept is not based on pvp gameplay, and I don't think this would be healthy for the game as a whole, despite sounding really cool.

Ah, but the issue here is that you're not accounting for the changing definition of 'the game as a whole'. If Riot made this game mode, LoL would be more than PvP modes. A lot of people would play this mode and rarely touch Summoner's Rift, if ever, being largely uninterested in PvP excursions. Same reason why Co-op modes are so popular, only here there's much less overlap with the PvPers.

[McDouggal]

Ah, but the issue here is that you're not accounting for the changing definition of 'the game as a whole'. If LoL made this game mode, LoL would be more than PvP modes. A lot of people would play this mode and rarely touch Summoner's Rift, if ever, being largely uninterested in PvP excursions. Same reason why Co-op modes are so popular, only here there's much less overlap with the PvPers.

I'm looking at that and saying that that looks like a cool and flavorful way of bringing something new into the game.

Also, Co-op vs AI is a great place to test a new champion, IMO. If you aren't wrecking the bots with said champ, you probably aren't going to be good with the champ normally. (said by someone who warms up on bots before starting PvP matches.)

[NineThePuma]

This is possibly the coolest idea I've ever seen on the League forums.

Resource analysis:

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Just looking at the core concept (4 lanes, increasingly strong/large waves attacking you, "minibosses" every five minutes down a single lane, "final boss" at 30 minutes, along with "Brute minions" in all lanes at that point) it seems workable. Careful inspection of it means that there are a somewhat devastating 9 additional models necessary (Melee Minion, Ranged Minion, 5 minibosses, 1 Boss, and "Brute Minions" which could be one model or two models, depending), plus there's the Void Portal Guardian (though, admittedly, my first instinct is actually to just have them be Minibosses) and you might want unique models for the jungle camps.

The Map Design Team is necessary as well, because unlike Co-Op vs AI, this is a completely new stand alone map, but the potential for displaying the void is pretty awesome, especially for a void fanboy like me.

Mechanical Thoughts:

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Looking, I can think of a number of mechanical complications (Ie; the normal Minions get buffed once every 3 minutes, and in a 30 minute or so game, the change there would be either relatively insignificant or it would be devastatingly sudden.) but those are easy to work with/around (Neutral monsters scale at 1 minute intervals, which allows the Voidspawn to do so and thus you will gradually be more and more out gunned by them.)

There's also the factor of increasing wave numbers: I would consider it mandatory for, after/with each miniboss, an additional Voidspawn to be added to the opposing wave, not only increasing the pressure you're under, but making it potentially quite devastating for you to leave your lane for more than one or two waves. Assuming that the void spawn scale slightly better than minions, late game leaving your lane could result in you not having a lane to return to.

Minibosses are somewhat tricky, in my opinion, because there are five of them total over the course of the game. Obviously, each should have a different "weakness" and they should behave differently in terms of what they do. Thinking on it, I think they should be classed into roughly five types: single target DPS, AoE DPS, Bruiser, MR-Tank, and Ar-Tank. The two tanks would be able to soak a lot of damage and would have abilities that behaved like Sunfire Cape, Thornmail, Parry, and so on. I lean in favor of them being melee and prioritizing champions, and all of them have an AoE ability that ONLY affects creeps/pets if they're taking too many damage instances at a time; this ability should be a strong wave clearing ability.

Further thinking, each of the 5 types could occur at random, spawning in a random lane. They would also spawn (randomly selected each time) as Portal Guardians. Giving each one a weakness (beyond "have the carry focus fire them down into dust") would allow for more strategic play; for example, making the Ar-Tank have cripplingly low MR or something to that effect. Additional input on this is desired.

Meta-Game Thoughts:

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Wave clearing ability is ridiculously important, but at the same time, so is single target DPS. Obviously, the Meta is going to lean toward Four Laners + Jungler, and I think an up shot of this is that carries with strong wave clearing are going to be favored. The jungler is most likely someone that you want to have be devoted to getting those buffs active for the team, and they need to do it quickly; I would favor Nunu and Cho for this, giving your laners primary DPS duty, while your jungler tanks bosses. Mobility in a jungler is extremely important here, in terms of "they get around" less than Lee Sin's "I got more blinks than your favorite crappy punk band"

It sounds cool, but the problem is that League of Legends is, primarily, a pvp game, and Co-op modes, in my experience, make new players bad at this game. Combined with the fact that this concept is not based on pvp gameplay, and I don't think this would be healthy for the game as a whole, despite sounding really cool.

Speaking as someone who got to level 30 playing only Co-Op, I don't think that this idea is actually that bad, relatively speaking. PvP based Co-Op provides you with the skills to play, but you're unprepared for the play that -other players- can bring to the game, being lulled into complacency by ****ty AI.

This, on the other hand, has no pretense of being PvP, and so you can't be fooled into complacency.

Ah, but the issue here is that you're not accounting for the changing definition of 'the game as a whole'. If Riot made this game mode, LoL would be more than PvP modes. A lot of people would play this mode and rarely touch Summoner's Rift, if ever, being largely uninterested in PvP excursions. Same reason why Co-op modes are so popular, only here there's much less overlap with the PvPers.

I wouldn't play it exclusively, but it would be my go-to for play testing new champs (instead of a custom game 1v5 me vs bots).

I'm looking at that and saying that that looks like a cool and flavorful way of bringing something new into the game.

Something new and AWESOME into the game.

[LordShotGun]

EDIT: This is possibly the coolest idea I've ever seen on the League forums.

WTF guys. Seriously WTF. I talked about making something like that JUST ****ING LAST THREAD AND NO ONE CARED, But once someone posts THE EXACT SAME THING THAT I DID ALL OF A SUDDEN IT IS COOL AND AMAZING!?!?

I am actually rather pissed off at this. Here, let me go find my post...

Edit: Rather, I would if the forum would allow me to check my own posts...

Granted it was not quite as fleshed out but I did talk about steadily increasing difficulty, minibosses, and upgrading your base.

Edit 2: Also I am rather tired thus angry for no reason.

[NineThePuma]

I remember you bringing up the idea, but it wasn't really very fleshed out and I had nothing to comment on about it. But you probably are the reason my idea percolated like this.

[Lix Lorn]

It sounds cool, but the problem is that League of Legends is, primarily, a pvp game, and Co-op modes, in my experience, make new players bad at this game. Combined with the fact that this concept is not based on pvp gameplay, and I don't think this would be healthy for the game as a whole, despite sounding really cool.

My thought is to compare it to Man Vs Machine in TF2. I approve.

[Tychris1]

My choices:

Zilean

Karma, LeBlanc, Lux, Urgot, Kassadin, Anivia, Twitch, Rammus, Corki, Katarina, Karthus, Xin Zhao

(That's every 3150 or cheaper champ I don't own.)

I've got most roles covered reasonably well(AD Carry is probably my worst covered, at only Ashe, Caitlyn, Kog'Maw, Miss Fortune, Sivir, Twitch and Vayne). I'll also accept "wait to buy a 4800 or 6300" as a vote, since at 61 champs currently, I really am in no hurry.

Buy Twitch, he's a really fun AD Carry and his stealth turns horrid ganks into funny escapes. Not to mention it's hilarious to stack tons of true damage via W+Autoattack/Ignite+Keep hitting them and then bailing out when it looks bad. At level 1 if you can manage 4 stacks that adds 40 True damage to ignites 70, plus with ignite lowering healing Debuff his support can't help him as much.

Plus it's fun being a rat who shoots bullets laced with salmonella.

[Temotei]

Zilean

Karma, LeBlanc, Lux, Urgot, Kassadin, Anivia, Twitch, Rammus, Corki, Katarina, Karthus, Xin Zhao

I'd go with one of Karma, Lux, Anivia, or Katarina. In order of my preference, I'd take Kat, Anivia, Karma, then Lux. Rammus is fun, too. Karthus is okay and Zilean is silly.

[Cogwheel]

Buy Twitch, he's a really fun AD Carry and his stealth turns horrid ganks into funny escapes. Not to mention it's hilarious to stack tons of true damage via W+Autoattack/Ignite+Keep hitting them and then bailing out when it looks bad. At level 1 if you can manage 4 stacks that adds 40 True damage to ignites 70, plus with ignite lowering healing Debuff his support can't help him as much.

Plus it's fun being a rat who shoots bullets laced with salmonella.

Oh wow I somehow missed Twitch on that list.

Buy Twitch he is the bestest forevers.

[PersonMan]

In other news, I got enough IP that I can afford to buy a 3150 champ and still get Zed when he comes out(assuming its not like...tomorrow).

My choices:

Zilean

Karma, LeBlanc, Lux, Urgot, Kassadin, Anivia, Twitch, Rammus, Corki, Katarina, Karthus, Xin Zhao

I'd go with one of the "2 champs in one" choices i.e. LeBlanc (support/mid/potentially ADC due to early burst and positioning abilities), Lux (mid/support/potentially bruiser), Urgot (mid/AD/support), Zilean (mid/support), etc.

Then again, if you don't generally play unusual supports, this won't apply all that much.

[Mephit]

WTF guys. Seriously WTF. I talked about making something like that JUST ****ING LAST THREAD AND NO ONE CARED, But once someone posts THE EXACT SAME THING THAT I DID ALL OF A SUDDEN IT IS COOL AND AMAZING!?!?

If it makes you feel better, I still don't care for it.
I'd much rather watch Summoner's Rift, TT and Dominion get fleshed out more and given more depth than getting another map.

[Tychris1]

Oh wow I somehow missed Twitch on that list.

Buy Twitch he is the bestest forevers.

Proof of the Plague Rat's skill at stealth.

[Cogwheel]

Proof of the Plague Rat's skill at stealth.

That's captain Plague Rat to you.

Captain Dire Smallpox of His August Pestilence's Third Malaria Brigade.

[ex cathedra]

I don't get that whole "two champs in one" nonsense considering that e.g. nidalee is nidalee regardless of how or where you play her, and there are enough options in champion select already that you don't really lose out by picking a champ who pretty much only does one thing (like Irelia or Amumu). also having a ranged auto-attack and a dash doesn't make LB an ADC. Horrendous base stats and no steroids = abysmal scaling, esp. since like every carry in the game gets **** tons of utility these days. LB doesn't do anything.

Anyways, I'd suggest saving. I find Zil boring and way too team-reliant. Twitch sucks, Corki is okay but frankly you have enough carries already. LB is in a poor spot due to the current itemization meta, Karma is super team reliant but benefits from the current itemization meta, Lux is okay but not a must-buy, Kassadin is great but his laning is rough and competent teams can hard counter him without actually picking his counters. Anivia is strong and only getting stronger, Rammus is weak and only getting weaker, Kat and Karthus are probably overpowered and Xin will be worth picking up around Season 3 but i'd hold off until then.

So, Kat = Karth = Lux = Anivia = Corki > Kass = Xin = Urgot = Zilean > rest.

[Tychris1]

That's captain Plague Rat to you.

Captain Dire Smallpox of His August Pestilence's Third Malaria Brigade.

*salutes* SIR YES SIR.

[Forrestfire]

WTF guys. Seriously WTF. I talked about making something like that JUST ****ING LAST THREAD AND NO ONE CARED, But once someone posts THE EXACT SAME THING THAT I DID ALL OF A SUDDEN IT IS COOL AND AMAZING!?!?

To be fair, this was originally posted on the League forums in July.

[Tychris1]

Twitch sucks

AAGFGAWBFAGFAHWFGAHSFA FWAAF-FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF.. *Stroke*

[Silverraptor]

League of Legends XV: Season 3 on hold 'till Morello gets Gold.

The Roman Numerals are actually "XL" for League of legends thread 40. That current set up you put is saying thread 15, and were well past it.

[Mephit]

League of Legends XL: Gragas in the Playground.

[Silverraptor]

League of Legends XL: Kill Lane Alpha!

[NineThePuma]

"LoL XL: Season on Hold til Morello gets Gold" has my vote.

[Forrestfire]

I like "Season 3 on hold until Morello gets Gold" as well.

[ex cathedra]

Morello has 3's and 5's gold, doesn't he? :p

My take on the void invasion or w/e Co-Op variant is... uhh... i don't get it. League isn't a very mechanically or strategically interesting game without the psychological aspect of playing against other humans. Similarly, i never got people who just played co-op vs ai. Like, the bots don't do anything. How is that fun? It helps if you have friends with you, but you could say the same about literally any multiplayer game. League doesn't translate well into that format, imo.

edit: nvm Morello hit Diamond 3's, so you guys are on a clock. season will be over before you get to use your season-isn't-over jokes.