The current main-plot is boring

[teratorn]

I sort of agree with the thread title, everything after Miko has been boring, she'll always be the protagonist in my heart.

I view OOTS as mostly Roy's story. What is important is not the quest in itself but the lessons he learns and how they impact his relation with others. He's the guiding thread for the whole story, while for the other team members it's more about individual arcs. All that Azure City arc, with the battles and the gate, was impressive and entertaining when it happened but I saw it most as a Belkar arc, first by having him taunt Miko and make her insane, and then giving him both the mark and Mr Scruffy, defining features of the new Belkar that is about to die. Roy and Elan also changed in important ways in that arc, but it was truly important for Belkar. Similarly Roy's death was mostly important for fleshing out V (not finished yet) and Haley. I really want to see the current plot finished, it's flowing out nicely.

[Fish]

I don't see why this is difficult. The story isn't driven by what the Maguffin does.

It's driven by what the villain THINKS it does.

And it's driven by what the hero thinks the villain thinks it does.

If the Maguffin doesn't, in fact, do that, it's called "dramatic irony." Do you get annoyed and flustered because Oedipus can't track down his father's real killer?

[WoLong]

I am sorry if there was a misunderstanding: I wasn't replying to you, I have been replying to the person complaining about your story. In this case, I pointed out the person is reading a classic "There's Evil going on Story" and therefore should not complain it's a classic There's Evil going on Story (with more Character Development than you'd see in a movie as this comic has more time).
If we're agreeing or disagree if OotS is that does not really matter here as the conception of the person I replied to is like. I actually defended your story here.

No, I wasn't complaining about OotS, and the Giant just told you that it hasn't been that kind of story for a long time. You seemed to be arguing that it should be more of that kind of story by saying that you felt the stakes aren't high enough and thus it's not exciting. Stories that focus too much on how 'doomed' the main characters are have been done too many times and they're boring now. I can't imagine why you'd want OotS to be more like that.

[WoLong]

The person you're answering doesn't appear to be blaming you, complaining about your story, or saying that you have made any mistakes. They seem to be on your side.

They were answering someone else who was possibly answering someone else. There is nothing negative in what they said, and nothing negative in about 2/3 of the posts in this thread, either, from what I can see.

'The current main plot is boring' doesn't strike you as negative?

[Bulldog Psion]

'The current main plot is boring' doesn't strike you as negative?

And where did I say that there is nothing negative in the thread?

[WoLong]

And where did I say that there is nothing negative in the thread?

'The person you're answering doesn't appear to be blaming you, complaining about your story, or saying that you have made any mistakes. They seem to be on your side.'

You seem to be confused. The person the Giant was responding to is the one arguing that the main plot is currently boring.

[allenw]

My point why I added the categories in the first place was this:
I find it unfitting to read a work about/around/before an epic conflict and then complain it has an epic conflict.

Anything beyond that basic statement can slide.

Fair enough.
Where I remain confused is that I'm not sure how that statement applies to the current discussion. I haven't noticed anyone complaining that the story has an epic conflict. I've only noticed people (not necessarily you) complaining that the story *no longer has* a sufficiently epic conflict to be based around.

To which Rich replied that the "epic conflict" is not, in fact, what the story is meant to be about.

[Winter]

No, I wasn't complaining about OotS

Ah, my bad. You did not say OotS was that.

About the rest, I guess we can constitute there's some sort disagreement on that. Some aspects* simply don't work for me. I'm totally sorry about that, but that is how it is and it is not rooted in some misconception what it is or not or might be or is supposed to be.

* Yes, aspects. Nothing more, nothing less.

[allenw]

If the Maguffin doesn't, in fact, do that, it's called "dramatic irony." Do you get annoyed and flustered because Oedipus can't track down his father's real killer?

But he does!

[Fish]

Dude. Spoiler alert.

[The Giant]

And where did I say that there is nothing negative in the thread?

Winter is the person who titled the thread. He's the person who's been arguing that the main plot is boring. So yeah, he WAS complaining, just not in that post. WoLong was actually defending me.

As a rule of thumb, anyone who doesn't want me to post on their thread snipping at them about why they're wrong shouldn't post a huge rant about how I'm writing my own story incorrectly and then title it with an inflammatory assertion. I wouldn't normally feel the need to point that out, but given as how there have been about a dozen such threads recently, apparently I do. Yes, everyone has the right to criticize the comic, but that doesn't shield them from the repercussions of voicing that criticism, which can include me snarkily dismissing them in their own thread.

About the rest, I guess we can constitute there's some sort disagreement on that. Some aspects* simply don't work for me. I'm totally sorry about that, but that is how it is and it is not rooted in some misconception what it is or not or might be or is supposed to be.

Then next time, consider wording your issue as, "I don't like this," not, "Rich has made a storytelling mistake." The former is a subjective opinion, the latter is an attempt to mask that opinion as objective fact.

[Angulf]

I've read every post in this thread, even The Giant's (especially the Giant's) and I fail to see the point of this thread.

Open criticism is often well received, but I don't see how this is useful, besides a "I THINK it's boring" rant. It serves no purpose than to justify the taste of the OP, all due respect, and even if the Giant explains to you every detail of the comic, your taste won't change about this current plotline, or anything that comes after it.

The Giant already said what type of story he wants to tell... though I guess he shouldn't need to. He shouldn't need to clarify some things if people could put their egos aside and wait for the author to "unfold the mistery". It's the magic of writing for a long-term, and maybe, if people stopped overthinking every single comic, they could enjoy more the next step.

Sometimes, a reader must learn to respect the author and be patient with the plot the author wants to unfold.

It was the best advice I got when writing theatre plays: if you write what the public wants, you'll never surprise the public, thus killling the theatrical drama. If you just attack the main plot, you miss its sides, and its characters growth: Hamlet takes seven acts to SPOILERS kill his uncle (OH MY DOG!!!). If the play started with Ghost Father saying to Hamlet: "hey dawg, go kill your uncle he'z zooo bad yo" and Hamlet went all gangsta on him with a machine gun, the point of Hamlet's vengeance and how much it drains from him (which is the point of the play) is lost.

The Snarl hasn't revealed itself yet as "how it works", and it isn't supposed to. There's two gates left, prophecies, and a race between a broken Order and two high level villanous parties with very different purposes. If you don't like it well... it's up to you I guess, it's about your taste, and that's the thing.

This comic is not about what you, me, or anyone in this forum wants. It's about what Rich wants. And we gotta respect that above everything that's said about the comic. If I can offer to you some piece of advice it's... be patient, and wait for the rest to unfold.

[Temotei]

*stuff*...be patient, and wait for the rest to unfold.

Well said. My only caveat with your post is that Winter continually posts that he does like the story, just not certain parts of it.

But the rest is perfectly put.

[NerdyKris]

Sometimes, a reader must learn to respect the author and be patient with the plot the author wants to unfold.

And as an addon to that, if they don't like it, they need to be ready to step away and stop reading. The comic is almost 900 strips in and closing on the end point. None of the points being brought up are new. The plot has been like this for seven years. Even a brand new reader must have read the plot up to this point. Complaining that it should change to suit your tastes, 2/3rds to 3/4 of the way in is like the people that still complain about The Simpsons since season eleven. You clearly don't like it, so stop reading/watching it. You don't go to the writers and say "Hey, even though you've clearly been successful for years, I think you should change formulas to cater to my tastes and not the fan base that's currently following your work."

[The Troubadour]

When we attempt to predict the end of the story, we've been predicting how some sort of climactic fight would go. Or something similar.

If Rich is primarily telling a character story, then we need to focus on the character-development crisis point - probably with Roy - and what would that be?

One doesn't necessarily preclude the other. I think it's great when a writer manages to do both - like Terry Pratchett, who is excellent at that sort of thing.

[Carry2]

Stories of the first type are for example the Lord of The Rings, Star Wars, Order of the Stick and basically every big Blockbuster Hollywood churns out for this Blockbuster-Season.

It just doesn't matter what sort of story I want, right?

Well, I would argue that this is actually a false distinction, insofar as even the stories Winter mentions are generally only found interesting because the overriding central threat (or rather, responses to it) reveals things about the characters. (I won't claim that's entirely logical, but it seems to be how humans are wired.)


The Lord of the Rings tells us things about Gandalf and Boromir because one wants to destroy the ring and the other wants to use it. It tells us something about Aragorn when he opts to rescue Merry and Pippin rather than trying to safeguard the ring-bearer. It tells us something about Sam when, even on the verge of starvation, he carries Frodo up mount doom on his back sooner than deliver the ring alone. (Star Wars, we covered already.)

Now, Winter has been talking about the question of whether 'who gets to the gate first' actually has a big payoff or not. I think this is a little misplaced. Sure, on the 'meta' level, it's possible we-as-audience do know certain things about the Gates and the Snarl (and the fate of the OOTS) that might make us a little more complacent about the outcome. But the Order don't know all that. All they know* is that they have a bunch of senior villains converging on the place with presumably nefarious intent. And several of the OOTS could easily wind up dead as a result, and the OOTS know that. So, as far as I'm concerned, that's stakes enough.

It's just essentially the same stakes that we've had for a couple hundred strips now. None of the emotional parameters have changed, or if they have, they've been ignored, because stopping the BBEG overrides all other concerns. If anything the problem is that the strip of late has been mostly concerned with seizing the McGuffin.

In my, needless and redundant to say, subjective personal opinion.

* Though I am faintly confused by why V didn't mention what Blackwing saw in the rift, unless I missed something.

I sort of agree with the thread title, everything after Miko has been boring, she'll always be the protagonist in my heart.

Damn skippy.

[Psyren]

Could you please drop that? There seems to be a miscommunication what the Type #1 and #2 mean that I introduced (Rich seems to have read something other than I wrote, so we were talking about different things) but I totally don't see the point to dissect that further.
There's only so much ad-hoc made-up categories can communicate and even if we'd be on the same page, the information gain would probably not be worth the characters used to explain it.

My point why I added the categories in the first place was this:
I find it unfitting to read a work about/around/before an epic conflict and then complain it has an epic conflict.

Anything beyond that basic statement can slide.
Especially if it'd be about getting into a lengthy and ultimately pointless discussion with the author about where what made-up category might get interpreted in what way, where this or that miscommunication might have happened and what the interpretational-ly scope and meanings could be etc etc etc.

I've read this post four times and I still have no idea what you're trying to say.

[TheYell]

* Though I am faintly confused by why V didn't mention what Blackwing saw in the rift, unless I missed something.

Varsuvius doesn't seem likely to volunteer gtst's total confusion.

[Edhelras]

The current thread is boring.


I mean, unless you're the author yourself, or you're the one directly financing the author (we're not, at least I'm one reader perusing it for free), then what does it matter whatever you think about the story, unless you have positive feelings you'd like to share?
Especially on a forum like this, that people attend because they actually like (to a small or large degree) the product here delivered. What gain could there be in voicing your dissatisfaction, unless you consciously wanted to reduce the fun to other readers, point out weakness that others might not have perceived, or hurt the author's feelings and possibly reduce the drive for contuining the story?
Since the OOT is not a collaborative story where each episode is the product of suggestions and ideas made by the readers (on the contrary, I've got a feeling that the entire campaign has been planned in some detail from a very early point), any thoughts on which direction the comic should take, what you like and what you dislike, is rather useless.
If one doesn't approve of the comic, the most sensible thing is to stay away from it. If you do like it, it's kind to voice your opinion and gratitude to the author.

The most likely end product of threads like this is to cause anger with those who like the comic, finds it funny, realizes it's a gift from the authors to us unnamed NPCs around the globe, and a very anxious that this comic shall proceed and provide us with more fun, excitement, entertainment.

One cannot probitit complaints in an open website, I guess. But each contributor might take a minute reflecting upon: Why am I writing this? Will it be of any use to other than myself? May it hurt anyone, and do I really want to be the one hurting?
I'll try to stick to that myself. But the OP definitely should do so - were I Winter, I'd mail the administrator and say: Hey, this was a bad idea, why don't we just discard the entire thread. Nothing good came out of it, nothing could, nothing will. It's boring.

[Silverionmox]

IMO the current dramatic tension in the comic is quite high... so high, in fact, that the expectations of some people have been raised to gigantic levels, and they will become disappointed when, inevitably, these elevated tensions aren't released.

[sam79]

To be fair, OP has made clear that he likes the comic overall, but certain aspects of the story are not (in his view) succesful. He probably wouldn't have bothered signing up to the forums, let alone contributing to them, if that wasn't true. He's not a troll.

I don't really see a problem with him expressing criticism on the strip on the forums, even given the assumption (that OP makes) that most people will disagree with him, and perhaps not welcome his views. It may not be how I'd choose to spend my time and effort, but there you go; to each their own. The wording of the thread title in particular was...undiplomatic, but a) attracted attention, readers and contrituors to the thread including b) the author himself; to that extent, it was a succesful move.

As for asking whether or not a particular post is 'of use' to anyone; that, I would suggest, is a pretty strict criteria to apply. What possible 'use' could be derived from posting anything on an internet forum devoted to a webcomic? And as for not 'hurting' people; the forum rules largely take care of this, and for the rest this is impossible to predict in advance.

To me personally, parts of this thread, at least, have been interesting; what's more, the author has himself contributed to the deabte, and given us some insight into his creative thinking. So some good has, in my opinion, come out of this thread.

[Blue1005]

Rich you are totally wrong :(

And obviously i am being sarcastic. And slightly hoping he will respond to it cause he has never responded to me :)

That said, the story is awesome, characters are lovable. People, many people, have said tears were shed recently.

I think it is awesome, and cant wait for more.

And, remember we are not paying to view said comics, all we are is spectators into another world from the head of a talented man. If we are bored, I implore you to do your own, and link them. I love web comics and wish they were all as enthralling and exciting waiting for a OOTS.

[Finn Solomon]

Takes a brave man (or lady) to post his or her criticism of a lion in the lion's own den, so credit for that Winter.

[goodyarn]

The wording of the thread title in particular was...undiplomatic, but a) attracted attention, readers and contrituors to the thread including b) the author himself; to that extent, it was a succesful move.

As for asking whether or not a particular post is 'of use' to anyone; that, I would suggest, is a pretty strict criteria to apply. What possible 'use' could be derived from posting anything on an internet forum devoted to a webcomic? And as for not 'hurting' people; the forum rules largely take care of this, and for the rest this is impossible to predict in advance.

Gonna disagree with this strongly. Good stories (as screenwriting guru Robert McKee tells us) are equipment for living, even if it's a web-comic and even if the message is as simple as "Lighten up and enjoy life." Stories are useful to us or we wouldn't keep telling them. Thoughtful discussion of those stories is also useful, in that it helps us to appreciate them.

But the OP was not thoughtful, IMO. Given that OOTS is still being created, and given that we all know that the author frequents this boards and interacts with the posters, and given that, as you say, the title is "undiplomatic" (I would say "obnoxious"), it wouldn't take much thought to realize that this might be hurtful to the Giant. The analogy that springs to mind for me is an audience member shouting "This is boring" in the middle of a concert.

If the OP really does value what the Giant is creating here, he might have been a little more considerate of the Giant's feelings. Because criticism is easy and creation is difficult.

Takes a brave man (or lady) to post his or her criticism of a lion in the lion's own den, so credit for that Winter.

Gonna disagree with this strongly as well. This is the internet. What is the OP risking by posting this? Everyone can be obnoxious on the internet.

[Raimun]

Boring? You must be reading a different comic than I do.

I've never been bored while reading The Order of the Stick. There's always something happening.

The story is about the characters and what they go through. Three dimensional stick figure characters, to be precise.
Sure, the heroes are trying to save the world and that's important for them. Still, the fact that they're trying to save the world is not the reason why I've been reading this comic for about 8 years. There's a lot of stories where the heroes are trying to save the world. What matters is the presentation.

[sam79]

Gonna disagree with this strongly. Good stories (as screenwriting guru Robert McKee tells us) are equipment for living, even if it's a web-comic and even if the message is as simple as "Lighten up and enjoy life." Stories are useful to us or we wouldn't keep telling them. Thoughtful discussion of those stories is also useful, in that it helps us to appreciate them.

If we include in the definition of use "sharing and discussing ideas, stories and messages", then I would argue that it is very important to read things from people who think differently. I mentioned above that, while I disagree with much of the OPs argument, his views prompted a new thought in me; that the Snarl may not exist, and all the characters who talk about it are lying or decieved. This is valuable, even if I don't buy it.

But the OP was not thoughtful, IMO. Given that OOTS is still being created, and given that we all know that the author frequents this boards and interacts with the posters, and given that, as you say, the title is "undiplomatic" (I would say "obnoxious"), it wouldn't take much thought to realize that this might be hurtful to the Giant.

Whether or not the OP was a thoughtful analyst or an obnoxious critic, I think the Giant is probably more thick-skinned than you give him credit for. Sure, it might be hurtful, and I'd prefer an 'I think' at the start of the title; but if the comments of people on the internet are likely to really bother you, then you don't host (and personal expense) an internet forum, and you certainly don't visit it yourself.

The analogy that springs to mind for me is an audience member shouting "This is boring" in the middle of a concert.

The analogy is not quite right. It is more like criticising a concert in the interval; unlike shouting out in the middle of a concert, there's nothing inappropriate about commenting on a forum, and there's no real way that this will interupt our writer's production.

If the OP really does value what the Giant is creating here, he might have been a little more considerate of the Giant's feelings. Because criticism is easy and creation is difficult.

Agreed, and double plus for that last sentiment.

[Edhelras]

Whether or not the OP was a thoughtful analyst or an obnoxious critic, I think the Giant is probably more thick-skinned than you give him credit for. Sure, it might be hurtful, and I'd prefer an 'I think' at the start of the title; but if the comments of people on the internet are likely to really bother you, then you don't host (and personal expense) an internet forum, and you certainly don't visit it yourself.

I know nothing about the thickness of the Giant's skin. However, that's one of the most widespread and very problematic features of internet debates: The assumption, on behalf of others, that they have such a thick skin that it doesn't matter what you fling at them. The use of this assumption to defend that one doesn't show that politeness and care that one usually would show in any other communication or relation to other people.

Actually, our history with internet communication during the last decade or so is full with examples that contrary to this belief, people may often have thinner skin than assumed, they're hurt even though they don't necessarily bite back, and they are actually influenced by what other people writes on the internet - even though they rationally may find plenty of reasons why they really shouldn't let themselves be affected by internet rants and offensive speech.

As for your advice to the Giant, it may well be that it's an accurate advice based on experience with the internet. However, I'm not sure I would desire that the Giant should listen to it. At least not if he, to some small degree, would begin to feel that the total amount of rants and second-guessing got heaped too high, and start questioning what's the point of this. I'm sure he wont get there, and that he can truly feel joy from seeing how dedicated his fans are - but my personal wish would be that posters here tried to avoid that problem altogher, by being polite and avoiding needless and pointless and inconsequential rants.
What's wrong with being nice?

[goodyarn]

And as for not 'hurting' people; the forum rules largely take care of this, and for the rest this is impossible to predict in advance

Strongly disagree. It is quite predictable that creating a thread called "The current main-plot is boring" would be hurtful to the creator.

his views prompted a new thought in me; that the Snarl may not exist, and all the characters who talk about it are lying or decieved. This is valuable, even if I don't buy it.

Sure. A thread titled something like "Maybe the Snarl doesn't exist at all" would have been a lot more fun to see than this. Though even then, I think both you and I would have spent more time contemplating what the Giant has up his sleeve, rather than declaring "The Snarl doesn't exist and that is just bad writing" as the OP did.

if the comments of people on the internet are likely to really bother you, then you don't host (and personal expense) an internet forum, and you certainly don't visit it yourself.

Strongly disagree. I am certainly not speaking for the Giant, but if I were in his place I would gain great satisfaction from hosting a place where people who enjoy the product I create can discuss it and appreciate it. And I would expect that the people who come to such a place would be considerate of my feelings.

there's no real way that this will interupt our writer's production.

That's quite a leap of logic. I don't think you're in a position to say that. The creative process is a tricky thing.

[Psyren]

If we include in the definition of use "sharing and discussing ideas, stories and messages", then I would argue that it is very important to read things from people who think differently. I mentioned above that, while I disagree with much of the OPs argument, his views prompted a new thought in me; that the Snarl may not exist, and all the characters who talk about it are lying or decieved. This is valuable, even if I don't buy it.

Or it existed before and not now. After all, it's made of threads of reality, and now there's a planet inside the rift where Cthulhu should be; is it perhaps possible that the Snarl has coalesced into an alternate reality? Such as ours? (I'm suddenly getting Fullmetal Alchemist vibes.)

Whether or not the OP was a thoughtful analyst or an obnoxious critic, I think the Giant is probably more thick-skinned than you give him credit for. Sure, it might be hurtful, and I'd prefer an 'I think' at the start of the title; but if the comments of people on the internet are likely to really bother you, then you don't host (and personal expense) an internet forum, and you certainly don't visit it yourself.

My hunch is that the only thread that really bothered him was the Crack Pairings thread. Man that thing got squicky fast.

[sam79]

I know nothing about the thickness of the Giant's skin. However, that's one of the most widespread and very problematic features of internet debates: The assumption, on behalf of others, that they have such a thick skin that it doesn't matter what you fling at them. The use of this assumption to defend that one doesn't show that politeness and care that one usually would show in any other communication or relation to other people.

Actually, our history with internet communication during the last decade or so is full with examples that contrary to this belief, people may often have thinner skin than assumed, they're hurt even though they don't necessarily bite back, and they are actually influenced by what other people writes on the internet - even though they rationally may find plenty of reasons why they really shouldn't let themselves be affected by internet rants and offensive speech.

I would not disagree with any of this in general; and I too know nothing about the thickness of the Giant's skin. But we are talking about someone who has set up and maintains an internet forum, not merely someone who uses the internet. In the same way that doctors are not scared of blood and vets aren't afraid of dogs, webcomic artists with open forums can probably take a bit of flak. I may be incorrect in this assumption.

None of this precludes the desirability of respect and politeness in all communication.

Strongly disagree. I am certainly not speaking for the Giant, but if I were in his place I would gain great satisfaction from hosting a place where people who enjoy the product I create can discuss it and appreciate it. And I would expect that the people who come to such a place would be considerate of my feelings.

As for your advice to the Giant, it may well be that it's an accurate advice based on experience with the internet. However, I'm not sure I would desire that the Giant should listen to it. At least not if he, to some small degree, would begin to feel that the total amount of rants and second-guessing got heaped too high, and start questioning what's the point of this.

I hadn't really intended my remarks as advice, and certainly I would not want to presume to advise the Giant. I used 'you' in the impersonal sense, and was speaking hypothetically. I should have used 'one', perhaps.

I would not want to see the forums closed, even if there are a lot of rants and wild second guessing. My own impression is that the forums are a generally polite and enjoyable place to post, and the general tone of the comments rregarding the strip are overwhelmingly positive. I hope the author has this impression too.

What's wrong with being nice?

Nothing; motion seconded!

Strongly disagree. It is quite predictable that creating a thread called "The current main-plot is boring" would be hurtful to the creator.

It is also predicatable that he would find it annoying, rather than hurtful. Or perhaps he would not give a hoot. Or perhaps he would take a dim view of this particular poster, as someone who doesn't really get the point of the story. Point is, until the author himself contributed, we don't really know how he felt or would feel. This does not preclude us from the respnosibility of trying not to hurt our fellow forum-goers, the author included. As I said above, a simple 'I think' at the start of the thread title would have been preferable. Though, admittedly, less eye-catching.

Strongly disagree. I am certainly not speaking for the Giant, but if I were in his place I would gain great satisfaction from hosting a place where people who enjoy the product I create can discuss it and appreciate it. And I would expect that the people who come to such a place would be considerate of my feelings.

That's quite a leap of logic. I don't think you're in a position to say that. The creative process is a tricky thing.

Absolutely right, especially given that the Giant did interupt his writing at least to the extent that he read and posted here. But I think my wider criticism of your concert analogy stands.

My hunch is that the only thread that really bothered him was the Crack Pairings thread. Man that thing got squicky fast.

Its obvious that certain other things bother the Giant; talking about real world politics, talking about the update schedule, talking about religion, etc. These things are banned from the forum. He could ban criticism of his work too.