LGBTAIitp # 49: Please check all baggage before boarding the Rainbow Rail Road

[Miriel]

"You're a girl?" (weird look) -- hard to keep your optimism in life when this happens. And it's not like I wasn't display a skirt, (fake) breast, makeup, polished nails and stuff. Oh well.

Hi!
I'm not sure of my transgenderism (could feel so uncomfortable with my body due to that, or puberty, or both!).
*kisses back!*
Also, parents think Trans Lesbian is kinda reduntant

I understood my own feelings towards my body . I had no way to understand them in any other way. Sure, I was sort of jealous of female puberty, and sure, I was totally freaked out by whatever happened to my body. But the idea of being a girl was completely impossible. It did not compute. (+ I was in a school for boys only, so yeah... Models of femininity were few outside family and teachers.)

You don't necessarily "know" where your feelings come from. Feelings happen, then we interpret them, in a way. Feeling weird because the effect of puberty can mean a number. But if you even come to the hypothesis that, well, it might be a question of gender -- this is significant in itself.

I still recommend seeing a professional.

Apart from you body, what tells you you may be trans?

Exactly.
I think.
Because "if you're already male and like women, why do you want to be a woman?"
I think they don't realize gay/Lesbian and Trans are different

Oooooh boy... That's a great way to be heteronormative AND cissexist at the same time. It's sadly common.

Heey... New here, haven't stepped into the forum in years... I made like an oots music video and I thought I could share it with the queer club cause I'm queer and it's kinda queer? Also I can't find an oots fanart thread? Also because I'm really glad there's a queer thread on this forum?

Also it's my birthday...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A48Ucynrj3Q

Welcome, and happy birthday!

And nice video, haha! V <3

[Lix Lorn]

I'll admit, Charing Cross did not feel very friendly.

[Ifni]

Is this really a thing that happens, people who are miserable about their bodies specifically because of puberty with no other contributing factors?

People being unhappy/scared about the way their bodies are changing during puberty but not wanting the changes the other gender is going through either? Sure. At least, I constitute an existence proof

Possible TMI re puberty:

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I was terrified of growing large breasts during puberty (I was afraid both of being sexualized and not being able to run without pain): I had a teacher who told me girls shouldn't wear sports bras because it would squash the breast tissue and stop it from developing (pretty sure this is a total myth, it was at the same school as the counselor who told me math was unfeminine), and so I religiously wore tight sports bras for the next five years or so. And there was nothing remotely fun about periods - I had family members try to convince me they were some kind of mystical entry to womanhood, but I just hated and resented them and wanted them to go away. They were messy and embarrassing and they hurt. A lot. (I have a fairly high pain threshold - when I was a stupidly stoic teenager who didn't want to look weak in an otherwise-exclusively-male group of science students, I once walked on a broken foot for two weeks without telling anyone, without painkillers. It hurt substantially less than the worst periods I've had.)

I do understand that it's coming from gender dysphoria, but my reflexive reaction to "jealous of female puberty" is "I would've given away mine SO HAPPILY"

Developing facial hair and having my voice change would've been unwanted too, though. At 12 I was jealous of my male friends who hadn't hit puberty yet, but I didn't want their body changes, I just didn't want mine either.

But yeah - I never thought it might be a question of gender, for me. If that's what comes to mind for you, Arkhosia, as others have said, that seems significant in itself.

[Miriel]

I do understand that it's coming from gender dysphoria, but my reflexive reaction to "jealous of female puberty" is "I would've given away mine SO HAPPILY"

I guess not actually having period pains helps with that But I'll take your breast growth anytime, haha! (Relatedly... oooooh, something's going on there! Since... today, my nipples are very sensitive. Yay! )

I'm sort of neutral on periods in general. On the one hand, they seem unpleasant, but on the other hand... I don't know, it seems like a typical female experience I'm missing completely, and will miss forever... Dysphoria, please, why are you suddenly activated by thinking about something all cis women describe as unpleasant? No, don't you go activate that tear duct. ... Oh well.

[Ifni]

I guess not actually having period pains helps with that But I'll take your breast growth anytime, haha! (Relatedly... oooooh, something's going on there! Since... today, my nipples are very sensitive. Yay! )

Congratulations!

(You don't want to use me as a model for breast growth, I'm pretty far toward the flat-chested end of the spectrum - had some growth at the start of puberty, which alarmed me, and then it just stopped. Maybe the sports bras worked I like it that way - I like my body generally, although sometimes I wish for a little more upper body strength, mostly after ten minutes of trying to get a damn jar open )

I'm sort of neutral on periods in general. On the one hand, they seem unpleasant, but on the other hand... I don't know, it seems like a typical female experience I'm missing completely, and will miss forever... Dysphoria, please, why are you suddenly activated by thinking about something all cis women describe as unpleasant? No, don't you go activate that tear duct. ... Oh well.

Aww. Hugs if you want them, Caroline.

Spoiler: More possible TMI period discussion

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You really are not missing much - if you've had diarrhea, stomach pains from e.g. food poisoning, and muscle cramps, that pretty much covers what it feels like, at least from my experience. (I've had situations where I wasn't sure if what I was experiencing was a stomach bug or out-of-cycle period-related cramping - at least for me, they were close enough to confuse.) But yeah, I can imagine dysphoria doesn't care very much about whether a gendered experience is pleasant or not.

(Also, it turned out in my case that the getting-steadily-worse period pain was actually signaling a moderately serious medical issue. Unfortunately, my doctors for ~15 years told me it was normal (in their defense, I don't think they quite realized what my pain threshold was, but under-diagnosis is also a pretty common problem for women with menstruation-related medical issues). I finally found out what was going on about sixteen months ago: not coincidentally, I haven't had a period for about sixteen months, thank you medication. I'm considerably happier with my body now it's not requiring me to take regular painkillers just to function )

[Miriel]

Congratulations!

At the moment, I'm in this weird process where I accidentally hit my nipples (a real accident, I always hit everything, coordination is not my thing), almost scream in pain, and then have the largest smile possible and start celebrating.

Makes a lot of sense.

Aww. Hugs if you want them, Caroline.

I want them. *accepts hug* (Not just for this, though. I've been in a sort of emotional chaos these past days. Meh.)

Spoiler: More possible TMI period discussion

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You really are not missing much - if you've had diarrhea, stomach pains from e.g. food poisoning, and muscle cramps, that pretty much covers what it feels like, at least from my experience. (I've had situations where I wasn't sure if what I was experiencing was a stomach bug or out-of-cycle period-related cramping - at least for me, they were close enough to confuse.) But yeah, I can imagine dysphoria doesn't care very much about whether a gendered experience is pleasant or not.

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I don't want the pain, of course. I want to social experience of periods. Things like "I had my first period at age X" -- no passage into "femalehood" for me --, or buying tampons and stuff, or even just complaining about the pain. Or, relatedly, using contraceptives: I don't want children, but I'd like to take the decision not to have them, instead of just... being totally incapable.

Yeah yeah tear duct, I heard you the first time.

Spoiler: More possible TMI period discussion

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(Also, it turned out in my case that the getting-steadily-worse period pain was actually signaling a moderately serious medical issue. Unfortunately, my doctors for ~15 years told me it was normal (in their defense, I don't think they quite realized what my pain threshold was, but under-diagnosis is also a pretty common problem for women with menstruation-related medical issues). I finally found out what was going on about sixteen months ago: not coincidentally, I haven't had a period for about sixteen months, thank you medication. I'm considerably happier with my body now it's not requiring me to take regular painkillers just to function )

Oh, that's great! Well, the "problem solved" bit anyway.

[Ifni]

@Caroline:

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I don't want the pain, of course. I want to social experience of periods. Things like "I had my first period at age X" -- no passage into "femalehood" for me --, or buying tampons and stuff, or even just complaining about the pain. Or, relatedly, using contraceptives: I don't want children, but I'd like to take the decision not to have them, instead of just... being totally incapable.

Yeah yeah tear duct, I heard you the first time.

I'm sorry for making you feel dysphoric, it wasn't my intention *offers more hugs*

And yes, that all makes total sense. All I was trying to say was that physical-sensation-wise, it's not anything unique (they're probably sensations you've already felt), but yes, I do understand the social weight.

(What you need might be someone like my grandmother, who made a huge fuss over it when I got my period (to my extreme embarrassment), and I'm pretty sure would make an equally huge fuss over you, say, getting hormones for the first time It seems like in some better future, that could at least potentially be the same kind of rite-of-passage, but you'd need people to celebrate it, and the same kind of social acknowledgement.)

The children thing... yeah. I've never wanted kids either, but one of the consequences of the aforementioned medical condition going undiagnosed for fifteen years is that there's a pretty good chance I'm infertile. (Certainly I'd need surgery if I ever wanted to try to have kids.) I've tried to figure out how I feel about that, and I don't think it's actually painful for me - but I'd made the decision years ago that I didn't want children, before I knew any of this, so it feels like I did make the choice even if in practice the other choice might not have been open to me. I do think it would be different if I'd known from the start. And of course, cis privilege plays into this too: I know that nobody's going to point to my ability-or-lack-thereof to have kids as evidence that I'm not a woman.

/hugs

Relatedly... do not read if you're feeling bad, although it's mostly me ranting about a particular TERF, so if you want to hear someone else yell at them, go ahead

Spoiler: Trigger:transphobia, TERFism

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I was looking up Germaine Greer in the context of 'Australian women who've done impressive things'. I knew she was pretty awful on the topic of trans* women, but then I found this quote where she claimed that no trans* woman "has ever begged for a uterus-and-ovaries transplant", and just stated as an axiom that no one would transition if it meant gaining a uterus and ovaries.

... which honestly makes me think she never bothered listening to trans* women in the slightest, since just watching this thread for a couple of days I've seen people explaining their dysphoria at knowing they can't bear children, your comments re periods, etc. I'm sure not all trans* women would want a uterus/ovaries, but saying that none would just seems blatantly wrong and very easy to notice. I guess I shouldn't be surprised at "oh look, bigoted person never bothered to do the slightest bit of research on the subject of their bigotry" - and it's from 1999 so pretty outdated - and reading her other articles she also goes in for transphobia of the "this idea makes me uncomfortable so I'm going to call people ugly names and deny their identities" variety, so I probably shouldn't expect rationality - but still...

[Zorg]

Depends on if that's because you've gone full-on bridezilla, I suppose. Please don't go full-on bridezilla.

[nervous laughter]

Well, if you can't share a spotlight, that'd be a bad sign, wouldn't it?

Well I was meaning more in the "how do two people in possibly boofy dresses fit together" than anything.

Very nice. Although Sun & Moon isn't a waltz. Waltzes are in 3/4 time; that song is in 4/4.

Yeah, I was just using it as a generic term

You could always come in different doors and walk down different aisles.

Hrm, a race you say...

My friends held hands and walked down the aisle to the celebrant together, if I remember correctly. It was really sweet, and not awkward at all.

(Uh, make sure you have a decent-width aisle though, I guess that could be a potential problem. My friends got married outdoors so that helped.)

That could work, though if somebody had a voluminous skirt it could be tricky reaching each other.

[SiuiS]

So you're a Sidhe? On of the Tuatha de Danaan?

Something like that. I prefer the spelling síth myself, though.

ETA: Sorry, linguistic fault of me

Aye, there was a Daoine in there, wasn't there?

Drat, would like to have heard it. Your wife picked a very nice song indeed

My songs are Blackheart for the aisle and Sun & Moon for the waltz. Now the logistics of two brides who want to walk down the aisle is something I'm yet to figure out...

Oh, more musics! Huzzah!

Now all I need is a girlfriend...

I want to say "put the horse before Descartes" but I'm positive I haven't been set up for that.

Our wedding had a cd player with a couple of traditional songs on it, because our wedding had to be rushed to get her on my orders for Overseas assignment.

We swear we are going to do it again at some point, though that seems to be in contention now, what with my choice and all...

It will probably be available as a body mod in a couple years at most.

There was an article about that in the paper today, actually.

I could probably make you fluorescent. Would that do?

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You can collect stem cells from a person's skin and you could probably transfect them with GFP. Then you remove the skin (carefully) from the desired areas, seed these areas with the transfected cells and wait. It would probably take a year or so and I have no idea if there would be scarring (although I don't think so). It would only be visible in blue or ultraviolet light.

Like [url=http://www.monasaha.com/uv-tattoo-design/uv-tattoo-designs/]ultraviolet tattoos?[/color]

More proof Caucasians get excessive amounts of nice things.

It's an old Roman custom, and it's at the couples' home. The theory is that the bride is so terrified at the thought of having sex that the groom has to forcibly carry her over the threshold. That shows that she has received a proper Roman upbringing. The married ladies on the forum do not strike me as women who need to be forcibly hindered from running away at the thought of sex. People who think it's a romantic gesture should maybe do their research (on the other hand, if they want to imbue it with some new meaning, more power to them).

That's asinine. Romans are weird.

You could always come in different doors and walk down different aisles.

Oh hey, yeah! Theme it too! One comes in red,the other blue. Both shed their cloaks and leave white as fresh steam, a cloud off to seed new lands with water and growth.

I think the point of the statement was that "Trans Lesbian" is a greater degree of specificity than "trans" or "lesbian" alone, and thus is not redundant. If your parents think that it is, the odds are that they're misunderstanding one or both terms.

Yeah. I'm pretty sure it was 'trans girl who likes girls? So you're a guy, you can't be a lesbian, why are you saying that?' Which is silly, I've been a lesbian since before I was a woman!

La feile Padraig, mo chairde! ((hugs all round))

^_^

I hate all the madly gendered wedding stuff. It makes egalitarian weddings so hard to tie into nice cultural traditions. I don't think it's one of the more popular traditions, though.

*solidarity*

Yeah, in Ireland, we have loads of doorway things due to spirits and stuff, I always thought it was one of those. I also thought it was totes awkward. Even if we assume heternormativity, lots of guys couldn't comfortably carry their partner around!

A lot of those traditions are heuristic by now. They had a common root that we as forgotten, but the motions were maintained, and eventually people asked why and justified it again by their newer reckoning or sometimes by anacrhonism. It's also possible that the base mythology was in place beforehand and several cultures all developed the tradition independently but with different justifications! Traditions are fun like that.

Heey... New here, haven't stepped into the forum in years... I made like an oots music video and I thought I could share it with the queer club cause I'm queer and it's kinda queer? Also I can't find an oots fanart thread? Also because I'm really glad there's a queer thread on this forum?

Also it's my birthday...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A48Ucynrj3Q

Happy birthday! A pleasure!

I vaguely remember hearing somewhere that wanting to be a girl was something every male-assigned person went through during puberty, and that played a big part in me downplaying it along with "I can't be a girl" cause of not knowing about trans people. But mostly I just thought every male-assigned person felt weird about their bits and hated showing their chest and stuff like that which I guess was me wrongly extrapolating from my own stuff.

Yyeeeaaaahhh... I got that too.

It's actually a pretty potent disincentive: every man goes through this whole 'would prefer to be a woman' thing because manhood sucks. But everyone else sucked it up and found pride in it, so if you don't you're weak. You're giving up and you're a quitter.

I'm still kinda trying to exercise that particular internalized bit.

This does surprise me though. Until now, I've never heard this from anyone but myself and one other person. And said person happened to be along my lines of intellect and predilection; I assumed it was a symptom of introspection more than anything.

So Mum's been talking to a transgender support charity, and apparently Charing Cross actually has a terrible reputation. Despite being the biggest gender clinic in the country, their standards of care are apparently not great and there's several complaints in progress against them. The representative suggested that their not giving me an appointment yet might actually be a blessing in disguise, and suggested that I try and get referred to The Laurels instead. Downside, it's in Exeter, which is rather a long way from where I live.

Huh.

How far, in km?

I'm sort of neutral on periods in general. On the one hand, they seem unpleasant, but on the other hand... I don't know, it seems like a typical female experience I'm missing completely, and will miss forever... Dysphoria, please, why are you suddenly activated by thinking about something all cis women describe as unpleasant? No, don't you go activate that tear duct. ... Oh well.

Yeah... *hugs*

[Ifni]

That could work, though if somebody had a voluminous skirt it could be tricky reaching each other.

True! The most voluminous piece of clothing either of my friends had was this amazing storm-gray velvet cloak... if it had gotten in the way, I'm sure she just would've wrapped it around her wife-to-be

(And anyway it was windy enough that it streamed out behind her and looked incredibly impressive. Still slightly jealous of that cloak. And it was useful, too, since the wedding was on a windy winter day: the other bride did not have a cloak and was looking distinctly chilly by the end of the ceremony. I was very grateful that our bridesmaid dresses came with embroidered coats )

A skirt would have to be pretty boofy to be wider than the outstretched length of your arm, but I'm not one to discourage over-the-top wedding dresses In that case, the "two aisles" option might indeed be the best.

I am fascinated to hear about the "every boy going through puberty wants to be a girl" thing: it's not an idea I've ever encountered before. I mean, really, womanhood looks that attractive from the outside? (to boys, not trans* girls) I'm a bit surprised.

[Eldest]

True! The most voluminous piece of clothing either of my friends had was this amazing storm-gray velvet cloak... if it had gotten in the way, I'm sure she just would've wrapped it around her wife-to-be

(And anyway it was windy enough that it streamed out behind her and looked incredibly impressive. Still slightly jealous of that cloak. And it was useful, too, since the wedding was on a windy winter day: the other bride did not have a cloak and was looking distinctly chilly by the end of the ceremony. I was very grateful that our bridesmaid dresses came with embroidered coats )

A skirt would have to be pretty boofy to be wider than the outstretched length of your arm, but I'm not one to discourage over-the-top wedding dresses In that case, the "two aisles" option might indeed be the best.

I am fascinated to hear about the "every boy going through puberty wants to be a girl" thing: it's not an idea I've ever encountered before. I mean, really, womanhood looks that attractive from the outside? (to boys, not trans* girls) I'm a bit surprised.

I am now jealous of that cloak. I only have a leather jacket and some good jeans for clothing I like. :/

And no, when going through puberty I was fine with being male.

[Ifni]

I am now jealous of that cloak. I only have a leather jacket and some good jeans for clothing I like. :/

I have an awesome knee-length black coat that looks like something out of the Matrix (yeah, I know, I'm dating myself) and makes me feel taller when I wear it But yeah, that cloak was amazing.

And no, when going through puberty I was fine with being male.

Nodnod, adds data point.

Actually... potentially intrusive question for the trans* posters on the thread, of course don't answer if you don't feel like it. One of the trans* feminist authors I read made the argument in one of her articles that (informal) education about gender roles and expectations is different for AMAB and AFAB kids, and in particular, what AMAB kids are taught about girls/women is not the same as what AFAB kids are taught about girls/women (and likewise, what AFAB kids are taught about boys/men is not the same as what AMAB kids are taught about boys/men). The example she gave was that AFAB people are (often) explicitly taught that men's sexuality is predatory, whereas AMAB people are (generally) not.

So I'm curious - for those of you who are trans* and now presenting consistently as your true gender, is being treated by society as a woman or man what you expected? Were there surprises?

[golentan]

I know when I went through puberty I started getting envious of girl's bodies. I wouldn't mind being able to switch back and forth: I like my body, but I'd like to try on some alternatives if it wasn't inconvenient.

[SiuiS]

There was no formal education on sex and sexuality for me. I knew the majority of it by 3, had dissed out the enjoyment parts by 6, and was baffled at 10 when there were halting attempts at politically correct explanations in school about that thing that I've known since forever. It wasn't until 13+ when hormones kicked in that I really grokked lust; before that it was entirely sensual. I miss those days, really.

The formal education process insisted that ace was something stupid that stupid people did because so much could go wrong and no amount of temporary pleasure was worth the disease, health issues and maintenance. But then I am famously cynical about my education experiences.

[Ifni]

I'm not asking about education related to sex as the activity, but to sex/gender as "which side of the physical binary you're assigned to, and what that means for you as a person". And by education I don't mean just formal education, but also informal inculcation of ideas - most of the stuff we're taught about gender roles/stereotypes/expectations growing up is not in any formal context. Sorry, I could've been clearer about my terms there, and my example probably wasn't the best as "men's sexuality is predatory" is often taught pretty officially, albeit not in those words (e.g. all the instructions to cis girls about watching/covering your drink if you're at a bar, avoiding parked cars because you might be pulled inside, walking with your keys in your hand, etc).

The questions at the end should - I hope - be correctly phrased, though.

(But on that topic, sex ed... was fine for me, actually. Parents explained how reproduction worked when I was maybe four, and I watched my little brothers and sister being born. Didn't get formal sex ed in school until ninth grade or so, but it was reasonably comprehensive, and in any case it was mostly of theoretical interest to me as I'm asexual. Still don't grok lust; have it mentally modeled as 'magic switch in brain' )

[Asta Kask]

Aye, there was a Daoine in there, wasn't there?

No, I thought Tuatha de Danaan meant "sons of Dana", which obviously wouldn't apply here, but Tuatha means "people", not "sons". My bad.

I am fascinated to hear about the "every boy going through puberty wants to be a girl" thing: it's not an idea I've ever encountered before. I mean, really, womanhood looks that attractive from the outside? (to boys, not trans* girls) I'm a bit surprised.

I don't recall ever wanting to be a girl. Partially inside a girl, yes, but not transform physically.

[SiuiS]

I'm not asking about education related to sex as the activity, but to sex/gender as "which side of the physical binary you're assigned to, and what that means for you as a person". And by education I don't mean just formal education, but also informal inculcation of ideas - most of the stuff we're taught about gender roles/stereotypes/expectations growing up is not in any formal context. Sorry, I could've been clearer about my terms there, and my example probably wasn't the best as "men's sexuality is predatory" is often taught pretty officially, albeit not in those words (e.g. all the instructions to cis girls about watching/covering your drink if you're at a bar, avoiding parked cars because you might be pulled inside, walking with your keys in your hand, etc).

The questions at the end should - I hope - be correctly phrased, though.

Aye, but like I said; I had all that figured out on my own by age 4 and I ignored just about everyone else until explicit shaming began in high school. I am severely atypical.

(But on that topic, sex ed... was fine for me, actually. Parents explained how reproduction worked when I was maybe four, and I watched my little brothers and sister being born. Didn't get formal sex ed in school until ninth grade or so, but it was reasonably comprehensive, and in any case it was mostly of theoretical interest to me as I'm asexual. Still don't grok lust; have it mentally modeled as 'magic switch in brain' )

That's pretty accurate. Magic switch.

No, I thought Tuatha de Danaan meant "sons of Dana", which obviously wouldn't apply here, but Tuatha means "people", not "sons". My bad.

Ah, I see.

[Astrella]

Actually... potentially intrusive question for the trans* posters on the thread, of course don't answer if you don't feel like it. One of the trans* feminist authors I read made the argument in one of her articles that (informal) education about gender roles and expectations is different for AMAB and AFAB kids, and in particular, what AMAB kids are taught about girls/women is not the same as what AFAB kids are taught about girls/women (and likewise, what AFAB kids are taught about boys/men is not the same as what AMAB kids are taught about boys/men). The example she gave was that AFAB people are (often) explicitly taught that men's sexuality is predatory, whereas AMAB people are (generally) not.

So I'm curious - for those of you who are trans* and now presenting consistently as your true gender, is being treated by society as a woman or man what you expected? Were there surprises?

I personally think socialization is a lot less seperate than it's often made out to be. Of course, what you internalize will vary a lot on who you are, but it hangs together a lot.

I've identified a lot with women in media and my environment, and didn't feel comfortable with the stuff I was supposed to like and do as a guy (including sexuality wise), and I felt uncomfortable/scared around a lot of guys and still often do a lot of the time. Getting targetted a bunch didn't help either. The odd thing was that a lot of the bullying I received was girl-oriented. Got called girl names, would get pads stuffed down my pack, would be accused of wearing a bra or girl clothes, etc...

I didn't really get many suprises, cause of the bullying and other things I've always been pretty demure and used to putting myself out of the way, which I think, and it really annoys me that it does cause it's rubbish, helps me pass. I've noticed that people smile more at me and are also more responsive when I smile at them. What people say to me has changed a bit too, not really sure how to put it, but I'll get more compliments / talk about my appearance and clothes, people seem to be opener in general towards me? But that might also be with that I just, like, don't come as shut up anymore myself as I did pre-transition. People talk over me / ignore me a lot, but that was an issue before transitioning so I'm not really sure how much that plays a part in it. I'm also getting looked at more, but I'm not sure if that's cause I'm being read as a woman or because I'm read as trans.

Sorry for getting rambley there, random thoughts just started popping up. But I haven't really had any big surprises, I think reading a lot about other women's experiences + due to my shyness and tendency to put myself out of the way of others I sorta got prepared a little bit already in a twisted way.

[Serpentine]

It's an old Roman custom, and it's at the couples' home. The theory is that the bride is so terrified at the thought of having sex that the groom has to forcibly carry her over the threshold. That shows that she has received a proper Roman upbringing.

Interesting. I always got told that custom had something to do with protecting the bride from some kind of malignant spirits. If she was carried the spirits couldn't notice or follow her and so the bride (and the marriage) were safe from bad luck.

I understood it was because if the bride tripped as she went in it meant the marriage was doomed (or terrible luck in general), so to be safe she'd be carried over. A quick Google suggests all three have old origins, which is interesting.

Don't forget that brides are only meant to wear white if they're "pure". I don't want to wear white anyway - it'll be covered in grime in no time. My mother wore a dark green power suit to her second wedding.

[golentan]

I understood it was because if the bride tripped as she went in it meant the marriage was doomed (or terrible luck in general), so to be safe she'd be carried over. A quick Google suggests all three have old origins, which is interesting.

Don't forget that brides are only meant to wear white if they're "pure". I don't want to wear white anyway - it'll be covered in grime in no time. My mother wore a dark green power suit to her second wedding.

I intend to wear white to my wedding. After all, I am pure. My evil is absolutely untainted by any trace of compassion or mercy! My corruption is marred by no trace of innocence, and my depravity is boundless in its innovation.

I'll shut up now. I should probably sleep.

[SMEE]

I'm sort of neutral on periods in general. On the one hand, they seem unpleasant, but on the other hand... I don't know, it seems like a typical female experience I'm missing completely, and will miss forever... Dysphoria, please, why are you suddenly activated by thinking about something all cis women describe as unpleasant? No, don't you go activate that tear duct. ... Oh well.

Yeah... *hugs*

Trust me, you don't want to have that bloody, painfully crippling thing.

I have been having them every 21 to 28 days since three months I started hormones and, bloody heck, are they a hassle.
In most cases, the pain is awful, painkillers don't help and all I want is to go home and curl in my bed with me trusties chocolate and hot water bottle, but you have to carry on with your day...
The mood swings, feeling bloated, lack of energy ain't fun either.
And at least once every 6 months I get one of those where the cramps are crippling and I can barely move.

At least I can take solace that since I don't have a womb, I don't get the bleeding part of it. still, I go "body, whyyyyyyy?" every time it starts.

I really hope you lasses don't get it, or if you do, ye be the lucky ones with very light ones.

[WarKitty]

I understood it was because if the bride tripped as she went in it meant the marriage was doomed (or terrible luck in general), so to be safe she'd be carried over. A quick Google suggests all three have old origins, which is interesting.

Don't forget that brides are only meant to wear white if they're "pure". I don't want to wear white anyway - it'll be covered in grime in no time. My mother wore a dark green power suit to her second wedding.

It's kind of amusing - I'd want to wear white for exactly that reason. I consider myself "pure" in the things that matter for that, and screw anyone else who wants to regulate whether I can say that.

[KenderWizard]

I could, but I'm like 90% sure I'd bang their head into the doorframe.

Yeah, see, it's that kind of carryon that I'd be expecting.

It's St. Patricks Day - shouldn't you be passed out or something?

Pff, no. Drinking yourself to a stupor is for some teenagers, some tourists and apparently Irish-Americans. And for those who'd be drinking themselves to a stupor anyway. I missed the big parade this year but I got to watch all the highlights of the parades around the country and the world on the news, plus a montage of photos of Irish abroad and famous landmarks lit up green, which almost made me a little teary. Drank some wine with my parents and celebrated my father's birthday (it was a few days ago but he was away and I live in a different place to them). We did have shamrock-flavoured crisps and "Happy St Patrick's Day" napkins, but the latter were sent as a gift from the US!

Catching up to U.S. in obesity rates? I'm sorry. And it's not really about comfort so much as being able to carry someone 3-5 feet without injuring either party, IIRC.

I'm counting "lack of injuries" as part of "comfortable". Comfortable, as in, without the pain of doing in your back or whacking anyone's head off anything. Also, yes, actually, western Europe _is_ catching up to the US in obesity rates! UK's leading the way, but we're getting there too.

We're not big on marriage, actually, quite the opposite. Even if we were, we'd ignore the traditions thoroughly for several reasons. Still, I've always had the fantasy of wearing a wedding dress just once, the traditional, super-fluffy looking kind, even if I don't have happy relationships with dresses. But then, it would feel a lot more like a funny disguise than real clothes, so to speak.
The likely scenario is that, one day, I'll get my hands on such a dress and kind of run around going all "LOOKIT ME I'M A PRETEND BRIDE WOOHOO". Even if I'm not actually getting married.
I'm bad with tradition stuff.

You should just get yourself a ballgown! They're super fun times! I have a couple. Then it can be in any colour you like!

So Mum's been talking to a transgender support charity, and apparently Charing Cross actually has a terrible reputation. Despite being the biggest gender clinic in the country, their standards of care are apparently not great and there's several complaints in progress against them. The representative suggested that their not giving me an appointment yet might actually be a blessing in disguise, and suggested that I try and get referred to The Laurels instead. Downside, it's in Exeter, which is rather a long way from where I live.

It's frustrating that the new place is so far away, but it sounds to me like it might be worth doing it right and giving yourself the best chance.

I'm sort of neutral on periods in general. On the one hand, they seem unpleasant, but on the other hand... I don't know, it seems like a typical female experience I'm missing completely, and will miss forever... Dysphoria, please, why are you suddenly activated by thinking about something all cis women describe as unpleasant? No, don't you go activate that tear duct. ... Oh well.

Aww, you poor thing. ((hugs?)) Maybe it would help to remember that lots of women -- cis and trans alike -- do not have periods. You're sharing the experience of "I know periods sound crappy but part of me wants them" with so many other women. Periods are a woman-thing you don't have but weird period-envy is a woman thing you do have!

Don't forget that brides are only meant to wear white if they're "pure". I don't want to wear white anyway - it'll be covered in grime in no time. My mother wore a dark green power suit to her second wedding.

I'm thinking powder blue or soft gold for my wedding dress.

My mother got married (first and only time, so far ) in a white power suit, but now she regrets it, and wishes she'd gotten married in a blood-red ballgown.

[Miriel]

@Caroline:

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I'm sorry for making you feel dysphoric, it wasn't my intention *offers more hugs*

No problem. Nobody forced me to read either.

*takes hugs*

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(What you need might be someone like my grandmother, who made a huge fuss over it when I got my period (to my extreme embarrassment), and I'm pretty sure would make an equally huge fuss over you, say, getting hormones for the first time It seems like in some better future, that could at least potentially be the same kind of rite-of-passage, but you'd need people to celebrate it, and the same kind of social acknowledgement.)

Actually, nobody made a fuss about hormones. I even suggested that my parents and I celebrate it (which I otherwise never do about anything), but they completely ignored it I'm pretty sad that they ignored it. I'm rarely proud enough of what I do that I want to celebrate it with them, and the one time in years it actually happens, they didn't react... They are not as easy with my transition as they say they are. I'll try again at my 6 months anniversary.

Relatedly... do not read if you're feeling bad, although it's mostly me ranting about a particular TERF, so if you want to hear someone else yell at them, go ahead

Spoiler: Trigger:transphobia, TERFism

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I was looking up Germaine Greer in the context of 'Australian women who've done impressive things'. I knew she was pretty awful on the topic of trans* women, but then I found this quote where she claimed that no trans* woman "has ever begged for a uterus-and-ovaries transplant", and just stated as an axiom that no one would transition if it meant gaining a uterus and ovaries.

... which honestly makes me think she never bothered listening to trans* women in the slightest, since just watching this thread for a couple of days I've seen people explaining their dysphoria at knowing they can't bear children, your comments re periods, etc. I'm sure not all trans* women would want a uterus/ovaries, but saying that none would just seems blatantly wrong and very easy to notice. I guess I shouldn't be surprised at "oh look, bigoted person never bothered to do the slightest bit of research on the subject of their bigotry" - and it's from 1999 so pretty outdated - and reading her other articles she also goes in for transphobia of the "this idea makes me uncomfortable so I'm going to call people ugly names and deny their identities" variety, so I probably shouldn't expect rationality - but still...

Wow, that one ridiculous way too discredit trans women. As you say, it's blatantly untrue.

Yeah... *hugs*

*hugs taken* thank you...

Actually... potentially intrusive question for the trans* posters on the thread, of course don't answer if you don't feel like it. One of the trans* feminist authors I read made the argument in one of her articles that (informal) education about gender roles and expectations is different for AMAB and AFAB kids, and in particular, what AMAB kids are taught about girls/women is not the same as what AFAB kids are taught about girls/women (and likewise, what AFAB kids are taught about boys/men is not the same as what AMAB kids are taught about boys/men). The example she gave was that AFAB people are (often) explicitly taught that men's sexuality is predatory, whereas AMAB people are (generally) not.

So I'm curious - for those of you who are trans* and now presenting consistently as your true gender, is being treated by society as a woman or man what you expected? Were there surprises?

I'm not sure.

First, I should point out that I went to a male-only high school, so it probably had some effect. Like Astrella, I was bullied, and one reason for that was my high-pitched voice which was framed as female (something I see as a blessing now that I pass perfectly on the phone ^^).

Some things I instinctively picked up without knowing, and activated when I transitioned. Or at least, I saw them differently. "Men as sexual predators" is a good example. I was aware of this, and I was afraid of being perceived as a predator or someone who's only looking for sex. But when I transitioned, I noticed this idea was even more strongly activated. There were instances when I was genuinely afraid of being raped, for some irrational reason. I was already uncomfortable around other guys, but the rape thing is new. I was never told to be careful of rapists or anything, yet I knew it somehow, and knew to activate this idea when it could apply (even though, as I said, it was irrational). I think a lot more of gender than we think gets encoded -- it's just never used when you don't change your perspective on gender, because gender is polarized.

There were surprises. Like Astrella, I do get more comments on my appearance -- but at the same time, I'm taking care of it, so it's normal. Also, men hold the door for me. I always hold the door for people when it's no effort for me, but some men apparently go completely out of their way to hold the door for me, which is absurd (but, well... passing points, yay!). And although an important thing for me was acceptance as a girl by other girls in social situations, I'm not sure how much I understood what that meant. It hadn't caught my attention, for example, that the girl's bathroom could be an important place for female socialization, for instance. But now that I know (and that I'm invited in ), I like it a lot.

[Kesnit]

I guess not actually having period pains helps with that

I'm sort of neutral on periods in general. On the one hand, they seem unpleasant, but on the other hand... I don't know, it seems like a typical female experience I'm missing completely, and will miss forever...

You aren't missing anything... I had blinding, double-over-in-pain cramps until I started T. Even after going on hormones, I got bad (though not as bad) cramping, though the bleeding stopped after a few months. When I started hormones, I went to a GYN to get my uterus and ovaries removed. Since I was about to start T, she wanted to wait to see if hormones had an effect. Several months later, I went back and told her that I was still getting cramps. So she agreed to surgery.

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(Also, it turned out in my case that the getting-steadily-worse period pain was actually signaling a moderately serious medical issue. Unfortunately, my doctors for ~15 years told me it was normal (in their defense, I don't think they quite realized what my pain threshold was, but under-diagnosis is also a pretty common problem for women with menstruation-related medical issues). I finally found out what was going on about sixteen months ago: not coincidentally, I haven't had a period for about sixteen months, thank you medication. I'm considerably happier with my body now it's not requiring me to take regular painkillers just to function )

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If you don't mind me asking, what medical condition? My wife has polycycstic ovarian syndrome.

That could work, though if somebody had a voluminous skirt it could be tricky reaching each other.

It's easier than you think. My wife wore a huge hoop skirt for the wedding, but there was no problem taking her hand.

Now if both brides are wearing huge skirts, that could be tricky...

The example she gave was that AFAB people are (often) explicitly taught that men's sexuality is predatory, whereas AMAB people are (generally) not.

I never really got told the "men are predatory" thing. Maybe it's because I grew up in a tiny town where everyone knew everyone (and a lot of people were related).

So I'm curious - for those of you who are trans* and now presenting consistently as your true gender, is being treated by society as a woman or man what you expected? Were there surprises?

I don't remember any surprises, though maybe there were some that I've forgotten. Of course, I got called "sir" a lot before I even started thinking about transition, so my outlook made me a little twisted. (Short hair, small breasts, wore men's clothes, had a deep voice for a woman.)

Don't forget that brides are only meant to wear white if they're "pure". I don't want to wear white anyway - it'll be covered in grime in no time.

My wife wore a green and blue dress. Then again, there was symbology in that. Earth and Water are the feminine elements; Air and Fire are Masculine. (I was in yellow and red.)

It hadn't caught my attention, for example, that the girl's bathroom could be an important place for female socialization, for instance. But now that I know (and that I'm invited in ), I like it a lot.

The one thing I miss about being female is women's bathrooms. Not for the social aspect - for the cleanliness! Men's bathrooms are NASTY!!!

[SiuiS]

The one thing I miss about being female is women's bathrooms. Not for the social aspect - for the cleanliness! Men's bathrooms are NASTY!!!

Word. It's a side effect of being able to walk in, drop trow, release, and walk out without having to even recognize the mess let alone deal with it. Even if 90% of men can aim, it only takes that 10% remainder to ruin it for everyone.


I am in the weird position of being depressed and only being able to get past it by beig angry. Any thoughts on better ways of handling that? I'm afraid I'm going to go from ranting in my head about minor issues to actively disliking people who are friends; already the juxtaposition is resulting in a sort of fatalism.

[WarKitty]

I've thought about surgery just because the things are bloody annoying and painful. And I'm really not interested in having kids. So, if anyone wants a free very badly behaved uterus and ovaries, let me know and I'll start figuring out how to transplant them.*

*Warning: Comes with severe cramps, migraines, mood swings, and possible suicidal ideation.

[Miriel]

The one thing I miss about being female is women's bathrooms. Not for the social aspect - for the cleanliness! Men's bathrooms are NASTY!!!

Haha, other people have told me the opposite. I haven't noticed a difference, personnally.

[SMEE]

I've thought about surgery just because the things are bloody annoying and painful. And I'm really not interested in having kids. So, if anyone wants a free very badly behaved uterus and ovaries, let me know and I'll start figuring out how to transplant them.*

*Warning: Comes with severe cramps, migraines, mood swings, and possible suicidal ideation.

It is bad enough already without the bleeding, so I will pass.
Don't want to make it any worse than it already is.

[Serpentine]

Haha, other people have told me the opposite. I haven't noticed a difference, personnally.

When I cleaned both in a nightclub, my observation was that (usually - there were some disgusting exceptions) the women's tended to be messier, but the men's were usually grosser. Make of that what you will.