LGBTAI+ 51: Lay That Hammer Down!

[golentan]

Thanks guys. That's what I figured, but it drives me crazy to see certain things.

I mean, I'm personally pretty conservative in my tastes and activities a lot of the time. But I don't like "one true way" of doing social things, and I don't like inequality, and I especially don't like when they're combined.

[SiuiS]

Meh. I think I've grown too jaded to the whole idea of arguing over feminism on the internet. It's just never worked out well; the other person merely walks away even more convinced of their noble crusade against the dreaded feminazi, and I come away from it eaten up with impotent rage. I'd like to say yeah, it's worth it just by virtue of at least fighting the battle that needs to be fought even if victory is unlikely, but at this point I probably just wouldn't bother.

That's actually a recognized thing. Telling people they are wrong causes them to become more firmly sure of their opinion. You cannot change someone's mind (in general) by saying "you're wrong, the right answer is … and here is evidence", it's not possible.

I mean, it is possible, but not likely. I try very hard to be sway-able, for example, and take the truth as my opinion rather than making my opinion the truth, and I'm sure you can find five or more people in this thread alone that think I'm an arrogant tosser who insists on always being right.

Thanks guys. That's what I figured, but it drives me crazy to see certain things.

I mean, I'm personally pretty conservative in my tastes and activities a lot of the time. But I don't like "one true way" of doing social things, and I don't like inequality, and I especially don't like when they're combined.

Yeah.

[Comrade]

I mean, it is possible, but not likely. I try very hard to be sway-able, for example, and take the truth as my opinion rather than making my opinion the truth, and I'm sure you can find five or more people in this thread alone that think I'm an arrogant tosser who insists on always being right.

The thing is, some things simply aren't a difference of opinion: they're correct, or incorrect. For example, I remember someone on a forum stating in passing that people 'choose' to be homosexual, so I stated that this isn't true, that there are heaps upon heaps of evidence as to why that isn't true. They responded with 'we'll just have to agree to disagree', which really got to me, because you can't just agree to disagree on reality, especially with regards to misconceptions that encourage prejudice and bigotry. Reality is what it is. Some things are differences of opinion (ie "Incantation is a better band than Suffocation" (actually, that's just factually incorrect)). And some things are simply rejection and substitution of reality (ie "There are only two genders, each of which correlates incontrovertibly with one of two sexes").

[ArlEammon]

The thing is, some things simply aren't a difference of opinion: they're correct, or incorrect. For example, I remember someone on a forum stating in passing that people 'choose' to be homosexual, so I stated that this isn't true, that there are heaps upon heaps of evidence as to why that isn't true. They responded with 'we'll just have to agree to disagree', which really got to me, because you can't just agree to disagree on reality, especially with regards to misconceptions that encourage prejudice and bigotry. Reality is what it is. Some things are differences of opinion (ie "Incantation is a better band than Suffocation" (actually, that's just factually incorrect)). And some things are simply rejection and substitution of reality (ie "There are only two genders, each of which correlates incontrovertibly with one of two sexes").

I think the reason why some people think about "choice" and homosexuality and even bisexuality that way is because there are some people who do, in fact, kind of do that. It doesn't mean it has to account for most or even very many people of alternative life styles, but out of hundreds of millions of people in the world, why not have some, even if just a small percentage of homosexuals and bisexuals do it out of preference and choice rather than a default state they've been in since birth?

People seem to be so vocal. "It's not choice. . . it's not a choice. It's NOT A CHOICE!"

Well you know, I know some people, and it's a choice. (For them). It doesn't mean that there's a lot of people around like that.

One problem with saying "It's not a choice" even if it's mostly true, is that if you just leave the argument at that, there's always a chink in the armor of your reasoning and just forcing your volume over people who have legitimate criticisms never solves any sort of issue that needs to be resolved. It just turns a potential truth that you can inform someone with into a weapon to beat them over the head with. Bare in mind, I'm not claiming any sort of percentage when I bring this up, I'm just saying, that if someone knows one, two, or more people with a different sexual preference than the norm, just saying "It isn't a choice", looks like nothing more than stomping your foot in a temper tantrum.

[SiuiS]

The thing is, some things simply aren't a difference of opinion: they're correct, or incorrect. For example, I remember someone on a forum stating in passing that people 'choose' to be homosexual, so I stated that this isn't true, that there are heaps upon heaps of evidence as to why that isn't true. They responded with 'we'll just have to agree to disagree', which really got to me, because you can't just agree to disagree on reality, especially with regards to misconceptions that encourage prejudice and bigotry. Reality is what it is. Some things are differences of opinion (ie "Incantation is a better band than Suffocation" (actually, that's just factually incorrect)). And some things are simply rejection and substitution of reality (ie "There are only two genders, each of which correlates incontrovertibly with one of two sexes").

I know. It's part of the human mind, it's irrational, but it's there. There are people who believe the earth is flat and launchin. Them into space to show them the round earth will further convince them of how flat it is. Sometimes it's as simple as human brains are that much of a jerk. We all know how hard it is to say "you're right, sorry" when someone is being a pillock about you're wrong and need to admit it and apologize and do so using their preferred word choice and if you don't then you aren't repentant enough. This is just a further extension of that phenomenon. Yeah, they're still wrong. But it's not going to come out easy. Often, the best thing at this point is to leave them alone and see if the seeds of doubt you've down will root. Further attempts to make them see the truth will literally blind them to it.

Some of us would rather burn than give you the satisfaction of hearing us say "ow, fire is hot". That's even the basic premise of Gurran Lagann!

[Comrade]

One problem with saying "It's not a choice" even if it's mostly true, is that if you just leave the argument at that, there's always a chink in the armor of your reasoning and just forcing your volume over people who have legitimate criticisms never solves any sort of issue that needs to be resolved. It just turns a potential truth that you can inform someone with into a weapon to beat them over the head with. Bare in mind, I'm not claiming any sort of percentage when I bring this up, I'm just saying, that if someone knows one, two, or more people with a different sexual preference than the norm, just saying "It isn't a choice", looks like nothing more than stomping your foot in a temper tantrum.

I cited the various sources of evidence as to why sexuality isn't a matter of choice. Didn't make much of a difference.

I know. It's part of the human mind, it's irrational, but it's there. There are people who believe the earth is flat and launchin. Them into space to show them the round earth will further convince them of how flat it is. Sometimes it's as simple as human brains are that much of a jerk. We all know how hard it is to say "you're right, sorry" when someone is being a pillock about you're wrong and need to admit it and apologize and do so using their preferred word choice and if you don't then you aren't repentant enough. This is just a further extension of that phenomenon. Yeah, they're still wrong. But it's not going to come out easy. Often, the best thing at this point is to leave them alone and see if the seeds of doubt you've down will root. Further attempts to make them see the truth will literally blind them to it.

Some of us would rather burn than give you the satisfaction of hearing us say "ow, fire is hot". That's even the basic premise of Gurran Lagann!

Yeah, you're probably right, but that doesn't mean I can't get all uselessly angry over it anyway

[ArlEammon]

I cited the various sources of evidence as to why sexuality isn't a matter of choice. Didn't make much of a difference.



Yeah, you're probably right, but that doesn't mean I can't get all uselessly angry over it anyway

I've just popped in on this conversation here. Just keep in mind I"m not saying that is necessarily a choice, just that there are statistical anomalies, and possibly environment contributions to this sort of thing. Even if your evidence is contrary to my premise, it's a soft premise, and not a challenge to your position.

[ArlEammon]

Aye. Imagine what your palm would look like, heck, feel like, after even half an hour of using that. Someone obviously said 'Ergonomics, shergonomics.'"

I think it looks worse than what it is. Probably clear plastic over it we can't see.

[KerfuffleMach2]

Some of us would rather burn than give you the satisfaction of hearing us say "ow, fire is hot". That's even the basic premise of Gurran Lagann!

Reminds me of a saying I'm fond of.

"Some people learn by reading. Others, by observing. And some just have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves."

[Jaycemonde]

I think it looks worse than what it is. Probably clear plastic over it we can't see.

No, I've seen mice like that in person before. Even had to use a few. They're as bad as they look.

What bothers me is the "what women want" thing on the box. Most women I know who are computer literate just want cheap Microsoft or Logitech mice. Personally, I just want a mouse that's durable enough to chuck off a building, pick up and beat someone over the head with for being wrong about my identity, and then play games with without any issues. I actually had a mouse like that once, but it had software issues and became completely unusable about four months ago.

[Serpentine]

This, however, which came into the charity shop I work at a couple of days ago, is less amazing >_>

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I have one of those, or something very similar, except in pink. My dad got it for me. To go with the bright pink Hello Kitty keyboard he also gave me.

My dad is a funny guy.

[Heliomance]

I think it looks worse than what it is. Probably clear plastic over it we can't see.

Nope. It's a mouse with plastic jewels stuck to it. Because what women want is pink packaging and sparkles on everything, amirite?

On a similar but more amusing note, I've just found a book entitled "Everything Men Understand about Women". It's completely blank.

[Zorg]

Nope. It's a mouse with plastic jewels stuck to it. Because what women want is pink packaging and sparkles on everything, amirite?

Yes..? >_>

[Athedia]

Meh. I think I've grown too jaded to the whole idea of arguing over feminism on the internet. It's just never worked out well; the other person merely walks away even more convinced of their noble crusade against the dreaded feminazi, and I come away from it eaten up with impotent rage. I'd like to say yeah, it's worth it just by virtue of at least fighting the battle that needs to be fought even if victory is unlikely, but at this point I probably just wouldn't bother.

Though it wasn't an arguement, more of a discussion of a youtube video on a group I am in on Facebook I will say one person managed to slightly change my views toward feminism. Basically he explained the different directions it split into and how some of my views fit one view. I usually run away from feminism, but that time I actually didn't feel attacked by it for a first.

[Athedia]

Nope. It's a mouse with plastic jewels stuck to it. Because what women want is pink packaging and sparkles on everything, amirite?

On a similar but more amusing note, I've just found a book entitled "Everything Men Understand about Women". It's completely blank.

Well I really like things with Hello Kitty on them. But other than that I prefer blacks, dark grays, and browns.

[Jaycemonde]

Well I really like things with Hello Kitty on them. But other than that I prefer blacks, dark grays, and browns.

Spoiler: Like this?

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[Athedia]

Spoiler: Like this?

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I don't use guns. Also I have mostly pink Hello Kitty stuff. Except for my DS case which is black.

[Miriel]

Nope. It's a mouse with plastic jewels stuck to it. Because what women want is pink packaging and sparkles on everything, amirite?

I'll stick to my ergonomic mouse at home and my tiny mouse for moving around.

[Ifni]

Caroline, just a couple of questions/comments on content:

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A "transgender person" is a person whose gender identity or gender expression does not match their birth assigned genre and/or who identifies as a gender other than "male" or "female".

Is the inclusion of gender expression in this definition standard? I'd been under the impression that it was identity that defined someone as trans, not expression. Checking google indicates that gender expression is sometimes defined as "the expression of gender identity", in which case, okay* - but I wouldn't previously have called a guy who likes makeup and dresses (but suffers no dysphoria and identifies as a man) transgender, I would have said he's a man with feminine gender expression.

*By this definition, it seems like gender expression is how one signals one's correct gender to the world, so someone who wishes to dress and present themselves in a manner culturally associated with a gender not their own isn't actually expressing gender at all? This isn't how I understood the phrase, but I might have been using the terminology incorrectly - thoughts?

the University takes necessary measures to limit the number of gendered spaces

It seems like this could potentially be used to limit the number of sororities, fraternities and women's groups. Is this intended?

I think Comrade found all the minor word-choice issues I spotted.

[Comrade]

I think Comrade found all the minor word-choice issues I spotted.

Pretty sure that was BladeofOblivion, not me.

[Coidzor]

Caroline, just a couple of questions/comments on content:

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Is the inclusion of gender expression in this definition standard? I'd been under the impression that it was identity that defined someone as trans, not expression. Checking google indicates that gender expression is sometimes defined as "the expression of gender identity", in which case, okay* - but I wouldn't previously have called a guy who likes makeup and dresses (but suffers no dysphoria and identifies as a man) transgender, I would have said he's a man with feminine gender expression.

*By this definition, it seems like gender expression is how one signals one's correct gender to the world, so someone who wishes to dress and present themselves in a manner culturally associated with a gender not their own isn't actually expressing gender at all? This isn't how I understood the phrase, but I might have been using the terminology incorrectly - thoughts?

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I think there might be some haziness with gender**** and certain genderqueer individuals where gender expression is a major component of the identity, and they would fall under the umbrella? Though, come to think of it, IIRC, certain forms of crossdressing fall under the umbrella as well.

It certainly seems to be a path destined for frustration to express as male while identifying as female or vice versa. Heartily enjoying gothic lolita is going to get a lot of misgendering shes and hers to those who want to be hes and hims, for instance.

I'm more familiar with a slightly similar scenario but with several heaping tablespoons of androgyny added into the mix, I must admit.

[Heliomance]

Signal boosting a relevant survey.
http://aliceofblunderland.tumblr.com...ey-please-help

[SiuiS]

Yeah, you're probably right, but that doesn't mean I can't get all uselessly angry over it anyway

Hell, according to science, that's the appropriate response!

I think, fundamentally, the difference comes down to whether someone wants to be Right or know what's Right. The former is entirely crap. The latter means you can strongly hold an invalid opinion... Until someone comes along with proof. I know people change their minds often enough when presented with nonantagonistic and well-arranged evidence.

The former get instead a swift Shatner punch to the neck and Kidney :D

No, I've seen mice like that in person before. Even had to use a few. They're as bad as they look.

What bothers me is the "what women want" thing on the box. Most women I know who are computer literate just want cheap Microsoft or Logitech mice. Personally, I just want a mouse that's durable enough to chuck off a building, pick up and beat someone over the head with for being wrong about my identity, and then play games with without any issues. I actually had a mouse like that once, but it had software issues and became completely unusable about four months ago.

Yeah. Admittedly, some men get the same treatment. "you can tell this particular item is masculine enough for the manly men in your life because of it's sufficient amount of GRATUITOUS CAMOFLAGE!"

Yes..? >_>

Hee~

I'm sure you'd want a quality diamond stuffs pink as sparkly thing, though. Right? Like, I don't do sparkles that lack a topcoat. Ever. I don't need to be washing the damn things out of my hair in ten years...

Though it wasn't an arguement, more of a discussion of a youtube video on a group I am in on Facebook I will say one person managed to slightly change my views toward feminism. Basically he explained the different directions it split into and how some of my views fit one view. I usually run away from feminism, but that time I actually didn't feel attacked by it for a first.

Heh.

I like feminism because it makes the radical claim that women can be proficient in math or science without needing pink instruments or to have the subjects dumbed down. That's all I need it for; a lot of the rest is gratuitous baggage for me.

[Coidzor]

I like feminism because it makes the radical claim that women can be proficient in math or science without needing pink instruments or to have the subjects dumbed down. That's all I need it for; a lot of the rest is gratuitous baggage for me.

The idea that women are people is gratuitous? And baggage?

[Kindablue]

The idea that women are people is gratuitous? And baggage?

There is a small circle within a large circle. On the small circle is written "a lot of". On the large circle is written " all of".

[KerfuffleMach2]

On a similar but more amusing note, I've just found a book entitled "Everything Men Understand about Women". It's completely blank.

Well...that's fairly accurate...

[Coidzor]

There is a small circle within a large circle. On the small circle is written "a lot of". On the large circle is written " all of".

Darn, well now my ribbing doesn't even make sense.

Well...that's fairly accurate...

Now if it was "What Men think they know about Women, But Really..."

Actually you could probably make that into a book series. What [X] think they know about [Y] contrasted with the truth.

[Kindablue]

Darn, well now my ribbing doesn't even make sense.

They don't call me Kinda "joke fact checking" Blue for nothing! I'm watching you! >.O

[SiuiS]

The idea that women are people is gratuitous? And baggage?

There is a very real argument to be made that, the first time someone hears you defend the idea that women are people, you plant the idea yourself that they aren't and that needs fixing.

Really though, I've never seen feminism as "women are people", it's always been women have rights. Starting from a base 0, the idea that women don't need special treatment covers just about everything you could complain about, because it plants te idea, unspoken, that the basis of special treatment is false – that they've been people the whole time and other people are just gits.

They don't call me Kinda "joke fact checking" Blue for nothing! I'm watching you! >.O

Man, do they? I can't even get the color right, now I'm adding a fancy quotation marked middle name phrase?

You're killing me, Partial"phrase goes here"Puce!

[Comrade]

Starting from a base 0, the idea that women don't need special treatment covers just about everything you could complain about, because it plants te idea, unspoken, that the basis of special treatment is false – that they've been people the whole time and other people are just gits.

Hm. That's an interesting perspective-- and one I don't think I've encountered before-- although I'm not sure just how effective this whole notion of planting unspoken ideas could really be, ultimately.