My Little Pony LXXXI: All Of These Ponies Are Crazy!

[DigoDragon]

Singing in the Shower

Spoiler

Show

There isn't one.
You just eliminated all options.

Yeah. Sounds like one of those "Outside Context" problems where there just isn't a solution.

You of all people should know the other option: You seduce it.

If anything, the fandom has plenty of examples where this could totally work regardless of the target.
The princess could seduce time itself with just a minor penalty.

...which might explain living for 1000 years.

Sacrifice herself for her people. The ultimate show of Love ought to be worth one heck of a Rainbow Blast in a world like Equestria where Friendship and Love is THE ultimate force.

This reminds me of what Harry Potter's mom did to protect him and if the effect is anything similar, it could definitely work if allowed.

How do you not only constantly dream about ponies, but also dream up the best friggin' ideas? :0

I dunno, I'm just a really good idea-making kind of pony. The trouble is pushing those ideas to turn into something slightly more tangible.

I'm just reading some webcomics, and what do I see? A pony cameo wandered in a strip.

Hee, that's cute.

[MLai]

I dunno, I'm just a really good idea-making kind of pony. The trouble is pushing those ideas to turn into something slightly more tangible.

I'm thinking about the fiction potential...

(1) Celestia in a Tron/ Barbarella/ Mass Effect spacesuit, at the head of a gigantic space fleet. Her biggest advantage isn't her fleet though... it's genre awareness.
(2) Other AI space empires consisting of Equestrian species of your choice, kind of like your game mod. The Mane6 all act like loony Wonderland parodies of themselves, as set by Luna.
(3) Luna, obliviously roleplaying her evil over-princess against what she thinks is an annoyingly capable AI representation of her sister, hams it up to 11. And she's not above underhanded tactics like save scumming or dev code for +10 quadrillion space bits.
(4) This is starting to feel like a space 4X pony version of No Game No Life.

[Rater202]

So, it's been a while since I've ventured into one of these threads, but I have a question for you guys, because I'm curious.

How would you expect Celestia to deal with a threat well beyond her power?

I don't mean Chrysalis, Discord, Nightmare Moon, ETC. where somebody else is capable of dealing with it, I mean a situation where she is the only option available, and has no way of overpowering her foe.

Additional dilemma: What if the villain in question refuses to let Celestia redeem them?

I'm curious what options people will come up with besides just "She loses"

There is no possible threat where Celestia is the only option available.

As she has not encountered such a threat before the start of the show, then there is no such situation where she can't send Twilight and her friends to deal with it.(AKA, Plan A)

Twilight and her friends wield/are linked to/just flat out are The Elements of Harmony, which are the physical embodiments of the magic of friendship, which is both stated and later proved to be the single most powerful magic in the setting.

So,if the enemy is blasted by the Elements and isn't Turned to stone/reformed/stripped of her dark powers/flat out obliterated due to being pure evil, then that's all the evidence you need that said villain is an irredeemable Villain Sue, and you need to downvote that fic.

Thus, in any well written worlk of fiction/fanfiction, there should be no enemy against who the Elements of Harmony are not a viable option, and thus there should be no enemy against who Celestia is the only choice to defeat.

...I'm starting to think of the time I had to explain to somebody that you can't combine FiM's metaphysics don't allow for Cosmic horror.

[DigoDragon]

I was not ready for the punchline.

Spoiler

Show

I'm thinking about the fiction potential...

(1) Celestia in a Tron/ Barbarella/ Mass Effect spacesuit, at the head of a gigantic space fleet. Her biggest advantage isn't her fleet though... it's genre awareness.
(2) Other AI space empires consisting of Equestrian species of your choice, kind of like your game mod. The Mane6 all act like loony Wonderland parodies of themselves, as set by Luna.
(3) Luna, obliviously roleplaying her evil over-princess against what she thinks is an annoyingly capable AI representation of her sister, hams it up to 11. And she's not above underhanded tactics like save scumming or dev code for +10 quadrillion space bits.
(4) This is starting to feel like a space 4X pony version of No Game No Life.

I'm going to save this. Because it's too good an idea to waste. If no one turns this to reality then at some point, whenever that day comes, I'll take the challenge.

[Forum Explorer]

So, it's been a while since I've ventured into one of these threads, but I have a question for you guys, because I'm curious.

How would you expect Celestia to deal with a threat well beyond her power?

I don't mean Chrysalis, Discord, Nightmare Moon, ETC. where somebody else is capable of dealing with it, I mean a situation where she is the only option available, and has no way of overpowering her foe.

Additional dilemma: What if the villain in question refuses to let Celestia redeem them?

I'm curious what options people will come up with besides just "She loses"

She'd pull off whatever sci-fi precursor race does when faced with an unbeatable extinction event. She fights, gathers all the information she can, stores the information someplace safe for future species, and then dies.

You of all people should know the other option: You seduce it.

Either through cuteness or sexiness. You bring it in and make it yours. Change their definition of winning.

This was how she dealt with Tirek - she got his brother on side by being a pretty pretty pony princess.

Ha!

I want to address this a bit, regarding whether The Journal Of 2 Sisters is "anti-MLP".

To say that it is anti-pony, is to assume that the world is a sugarbright setting and has always been so. Like Eversion (game), this is only a superficial aspect of the setting, especially if we limit our POV to only the main protags. However, we know as canon fact that this world was on the brink of irrevocable apocalypse multiple times, and is now seemingly an utopia only by conscious diligence. It is still a broken world kept from its own overdue demise by a fragile bubble of magic. Without ponies, alien visitors would find only a lifeless ice-locked rogue planet.

The royal sisters may not be actual omnipotent gods, but they are the beacons of ponydom that is keeping the world alive. I don't mean by just magical movement of celestial bodies. Celestia has laboured for over a millennium to attain the current idyllic social equilibrium, where ponies happily work together to keep the world running and where altruistic philosophies are celebrated in holiday myths. The Tree may be the source of the ultimate power but the princesses are its agents.

This world has seen evil, war, and near-annihilation. Fallout: Equestria? That is not some "new, bold, grimdark alternate universe" setting. That was this world, except this world was even worse off. It was brought back from the brink, and it will always teeter on the brink. I think acknowledging that makes the current utopia all the more poignant.

That's true, but it's not what makes it so anti-MLP. Despite all of the apocalypse stuff you mentioned, friendship (or love) has always been a solution to save the day. But in this case it isn't. It's a permanent sacrifice that's only a short term solution, and everypony knows it. Even Fallout Equestria understood that, as one of the bigger themes was the strength of friendship even in the Wasteland, or that one of the root causes of the disaster was the nation of Equestria turning away from friendship in a time of war. This situation we got the slow despair of watching ponies sacrificing themselves, until out of nowhere Celestia and Luna ascend and fix everything. Why? Because they are super special.

[Rater202]

Why? Because they are super special.

Just like the Mane 6 were able to come out of nowhere anrd wield the Elements of Harmony better than Celestia or Luna could because they're super special?

[Forum Explorer]

Just like the Mane 6 were able to come out of nowhere anrd wield the Elements of Harmony better than Celestia or Luna could because they're super special?

Nope, presumably anypony could have done that, provided they were strong enough friends. That's my point. (And it's the basis of things like the Lunaverse)

Nearly everything Twilight has done, she's accomplished because of her strong friendships and her understanding of friendship. Not because she just had the power to do so all along.

[TheAmishPirate]

That's true, but it's not what makes it so anti-MLP. Despite all of the apocalypse stuff you mentioned, friendship (or love) has always been a solution to save the day. But in this case it isn't. It's a permanent sacrifice that's only a short term solution, and everypony knows it.

[snipped for clarity]

This situation we got the slow despair of watching ponies sacrificing themselves, until out of nowhere Celestia and Luna ascend and fix everything. Why? Because they are super special.

Question: Do we know all this for fact, or do we just know Celestia and Luna's side of the story?

[Forum Explorer]

Question: Do we know all this for fact, or do we just know Celestia and Luna's side of the story?

I don't believe so. I haven't actually read this book (I'm not spending money on something, when I heartily disapprove of the information given to me so far.)

However my understanding is that it's all from Celestia and Luna's perspective as they make journal entries.

[Mystic Muse]

There is no possible threat where Celestia is the only option available.

As she has not encountered such a threat before the start of the show, then there is no such situation where she can't send Twilight and her friends to deal with it.(AKA, Plan A)

Plan A when she found out about Queen Chrysalis was to kick Chrysalis's plot herself. It just didn't work out.

Twilight and her friends wield/are linked to/just flat out are The Elements of Harmony, which are the physical embodiments of the magic of friendship, which is both stated and later proved to be the single most powerful magic in the setting.

When was this proved? Because I haven't seen past Season 2.

So,if the enemy is blasted by the Elements and isn't Turned to stone/reformed/stripped of her dark powers/flat out obliterated due to being pure evil, then that's all the evidence you need that said villain is an irredeemable Villain Sue, and you need to downvote that fic.

And maybe, just maybe, the villain did the smart thing and incapacitated the elements of harmony specifically so they can't do this?

I don't think it makes them a villain sue to realize "It'd probably be bad if my plan got foiled by the elements of Harmony, so why don't I take them out of the picture one way or another so that they can't stop me?"

Whether or not they can be affected by the elements is irrelevant if the elements never get a chance to affect them.

Thus, in any well written worlk of fiction/fanfiction, there should be no enemy against who the Elements of Harmony are not a viable option, and thus there should be no enemy against who Celestia is the only choice to defeat.

...I'm starting to think of the time I had to explain to somebody that you can't combine FiM's metaphysics don't allow for Cosmic horror.

I disagree with this statement wholeheartedly.

I'm running an MLP D&D campaign. The villain can't be affected by the elements of Harmony, because if she could, then there IS no campaign. There's just "Hey, Celestia? There's a big insane bad guy who wants to get rid of magic. You should send the elements of Harmony to stop them. Kthxbai."

The underlying message of the show is still there. Friendship is what is going to end up saving the day. It's just that it won't be using a point and shoot nuke to do it, because that's easy and boring and unsatisfying for all involved.

Anyway, my question was answered, so I'm going to head off once again.

[Rater202]

Nope, presumably anypony could have done that, provided they were strong enough friends. That's my point. (And it's the basis of things like the Lunaverse)

Nearly everything Twilight has done, she's accomplished because of her strong friendships and her understanding of friendship. Not because she just had the power to do so all along.

NeI never said Twilight did things becuase she had the power all along, I'm saying she and her friends were in the position to do so becuase they are, to use your own words, "Super Special".

Wee say in the piolet, that the symbol on the stone ball thing the elements were cased in, that Magic was already a Starbusts-it didn't change to match Twilight's Cutie Mark like the other elements did.

Flashback's at the beginning of this Season-yep, it was always a starburst and always the same color as Twilight's Cutie Mark.

Which Means that Twilight's Cutie Mark is literally the Element of Magic.

The Same Starburst Shape is Present on the Tree of Harmony, along with the Sun Shape of Celestia's and the Moon Shape of Luna's

These two facts, coupled with the fact that Cutie Marks are representative of Destiny, means that it was Twilight's destiny to wiled the element of Magic, which means that she and only she is capable of wielding it.

Now, let's rewatch Cutie Mark Chronicles.

All of the Mane 6 got there Cutie Marks on the Same Day, all of them were in related events(Causing, after seeing, caused by the Rainboom), and each of them got their Cutie Marks in a way that is related to the element they eventially came to wield.

Applejack got her's for being honest with herself about what she really belonged.

Fluttershy got her's after being kind to the scared animals

Rarity found a bunch of Gems, but instead of hoarding them for herself, she generously used them to improve the costumes for the play.

Twilight got her's after preforming an act of incredible magic, that as a bonus led to her meeting her first friend

Pinkie got her's for bringing Laughter to her Family

And Rainbowdash's whole reason for the race where she got her's was because she was showing Loyalty to a Friend.

all six elements represent, on the same day, bt ponies linked by a rainbow.

Again, since Cutie Marks are linked to Destiny,we can conclude that the Mane 6 were infact destined to find the elements of Harmony, and Destined to become friends.

Final nail in the coffin, Celestia explicitly said that Only the Mane 6 could use the elements in The Return of Harmony. Even if they weren't, they're clearly the best at using them, since they were able to use the to purify Luna instead of Banishing her.

So yes, they work hard, and their greatest victories are becuase they're friends, but the reason there friendship works to power the Elements is becuase they're "Super Special"

It's there destiny to wield the magic of friendship, the same way it's the royal sister's destiny to raise the sun and moon.

[Rater202]

When was this proved? Because I haven't seen past Season 2.

Season 4 finale. Lord Tirek has escaped Tartarus and has been stealing the Magic from ponies, with his ultimate goal being to steal the potent magic of the Alicorns. Over the course of two episodes, he's drained the magic of every single pony in equestria, including the princesses, and the mane 6. He also stole Discord's reality warping chaos magic.

He has literally all of the magic. Plant's don't grow, the weather dosn't change, the sun and moon don't rise, unless he wills it. He has, for all intents and purposes become a god.

A moment Later, the Mane 6, all without there magic, gain the abillity to use the Magic of Friendship without the physical elements.

The Mane 6 with the Magic of Friendship, Vs Tirek with literally all of the rest of the magic in the world.

They literally blasted him to hell in one hit.

Now, I don't know about you, but when somepony eclares that this one kind of magic is the strongest magic in the world, and demonstrates it by using it to curbstomp somepony else who has literally all the rest of the magic in the world, then that's a pretty clear indication that that one specific type of magic is in fact the most powerful of all

And maybe, just maybe, the villain did the smart thing and incapacitated the elements of harmony specifically so they can't do this?

I don't think it makes them a villain sue to realize "It'd probably be bad if my plan got foiled by the elements of Harmony, so why don't I take them out of the picture one way or another so that they can't stop me?"

Whether or not they can be affected by the elements is irrelevant if the elements never get a chance to affect them.

That didn't work when Discord Tried it, why would it work now?

I disagree with this statement wholeheartedly.

I'm running an MLP D&D campaign. The villain can't be affected by the elements of Harmony, because if she could, then there IS no campaign. There's just "Hey, Celestia? There's a big insane bad guy who wants to get rid of magic. You should send the elements of Harmony to stop them. Kthxbai."

The underlying message of the show is still there. Friendship is what is going to end up saving the day. It's just that it won't be using a point and shoot nuke to do it, because that's easy and boring and unsatisfying for all involved.

Anyway, my question was answered, so I'm going to head off once again.

Celestia doesn't know about the threat yet, so sh cant send the Elements to deal with it.

Therefore, the drama is preserved without violating canon.

Or you know, maybe Celestia doesn't feel like bugging the mane six for a crazy guy?

[Mystic Muse]

Season 4 finale. Lord Tirek has escaped Tartarus and has been stealing the Magic from ponies, with his ultimate goal being to steal the potent magic of the Alicorns. Over the course of two episodes, he's drained the magic of every single pony in equestria, including the princesses, and the mane 6. He also stole Discord's reality warping chaos magic.

He has literally all of the magic. Plant's don't grow, the weather dosn't change, the sun and moon don't rise, unless he wills it. He has, for all intents and purposes become a god.

A moment Later, the Mane 6, all without there magic, gain the abillity to use the Magic of Friendship without the physical elements.

The Mane 6 with the Magic of Friendship, Vs Tirek with literally all of the rest of the magic in the world.

They literally blasted him to hell in one hit.

Now, I don't know about you, but when somepony eclares that this one kind of magic is the strongest magic in the world, and demonstrates it by using it to curbstomp somepony else who has literally all the rest of the magic in the world, then that's a pretty clear indication that that one specific type of magic is in fact the most powerful of all

Wow.

That's really the only reaction my brain can come up with.

That didn't work when Discord Tried it, why would it work now?

Because if it had worked when Discord tried it, there wouldn't be a show.

Celestia doesn't know about the threat yet, so sh cant send the Elements to deal with it.

Therefore, the drama is preserved without violating canon.

Or you know, maybe Celestia doesn't feel like bugging the mane six for a crazy guy?

The setting already violates canon by introducing deities and an overdeity, and somebody dying who is currently alive in the show. I think it can survive two beings in all of existence that the elements of Harmony don't work on (The villain, and the overdeity of death respectively. Wouldn't work on the latter anyway, since she's good aligned.)

And if Celestia didn't feel like bugging the mane 6 for this threat, she'd be a very poor excuse for a goodguy.

Though, now we're getting into three separate settings (What I was asking the initial question for, my D&D setting, and the show itself), this is liable to get confusing, and the original question has since become moot regardless, this time I feel I should simply head out of this thread before I annoy people more.

Sorry for being a bother.

Ta-ta forever.

EDIT: If somebody feels there's something I really REALLY need to respond to, they can PM me.

[SiuiS]

Gather as much information on the danger as she can, leave it in some safe space/device where either Twilight or future generations of asskickers can find it and possibly figure out a way to beat it later, then just she just tries to minimize the damage it can do or contain the threat for as long as she can.

And maybe next cycle they can stop the reapers with the catalyst and the. Risible, but only if they accept the sparkly jerkwad who force feeds success to them.

In his metaphor, starbrat becomes Celestia.

...I'm starting to think of the time I had to explain to somebody that you can't combine FiM's metaphysics don't allow for Cosmic horror.

That might have been mystic muse actually.

snip

You missed the part where she has not seen anything past season two. The response is "yes, and this YouTube account has all the research materials you need". Explaining it won't work, if just gives we your POV. You need to let her independently arrive at conclusions

[Forum Explorer]

NeI never said Twilight did things becuase she had the power all along, I'm saying she and her friends were in the position to do so becuase they are, to use your own words, "Super Special".

Wee say in the piolet, that the symbol on the stone ball thing the elements were cased in, that Magic was already a Starbusts-it didn't change to match Twilight's Cutie Mark like the other elements did.

Flashback's at the beginning of this Season-yep, it was always a starburst and always the same color as Twilight's Cutie Mark.

Which Means that Twilight's Cutie Mark is literally the Element of Magic.

The Same Starburst Shape is Present on the Tree of Harmony, along with the Sun Shape of Celestia's and the Moon Shape of Luna's

These two facts, coupled with the fact that Cutie Marks are representative of Destiny, means that it was Twilight's destiny to wiled the element of Magic, which means that she and only she is capable of wielding it.

Now, let's rewatch Cutie Mark Chronicles.

All of the Mane 6 got there Cutie Marks on the Same Day, all of them were in related events(Causing, after seeing, caused by the Rainboom), and each of them got their Cutie Marks in a way that is related to the element they eventially came to wield.

Applejack got her's for being honest with herself about what she really belonged.

Fluttershy got her's after being kind to the scared animals

Rarity found a bunch of Gems, but instead of hoarding them for herself, she generously used them to improve the costumes for the play.

Twilight got her's after preforming an act of incredible magic, that as a bonus led to her meeting her first friend

Pinkie got her's for bringing Laughter to her Family

And Rainbowdash's whole reason for the race where she got her's was because she was showing Loyalty to a Friend.

all six elements represent, on the same day, bt ponies linked by a rainbow.

Again, since Cutie Marks are linked to Destiny,we can conclude that the Mane 6 were infact destined to find the elements of Harmony, and Destined to become friends.

Final nail in the coffin, Celestia explicitly said that Only the Mane 6 could use the elements in The Return of Harmony. Even if they weren't, they're clearly the best at using them, since they were able to use the to purify Luna instead of Banishing her.

So yes, they work hard, and their greatest victories are becuase they're friends, but the reason there friendship works to power the Elements is becuase they're "Super Special"

It's there destiny to wield the magic of friendship, the same way it's the royal sister's destiny to raise the sun and moon.

Different meanings of Super Special here.

Twilight's cutie mark is literally the element of magic yes, But she earned it every single step of the way. She studied hard, practiced her magic, made her friends, learned the meaning of friendship, and defeated her opponents through her own efforts. She didn't just become an alicorn princess the day she earned her cutie mark, and instantly won the friendship of the Mane 6 just by appearing before them.

As for Destiny, well I never liked the idea in general. If you are proposing that she was predetermined to succeed, then I fully reject the idea as it makes nothing matter (IMO). If she was foretold, then that's a different story. Her cutie mark matching everything is a sign of both who she is, and of the troubles to come. But she was free to fail, to abuse her power, or to drive her friends away. She didn't, but she could have.

That just shows that they were already exhibiting the traits that make them appropriate wielders of the Elements of Harmony. Not that they were the only ones who could have done so. And again, despite their success there was the potential to fail. Applejack could have let her dislike of Rarity blossom into genuine hatred. Rarity could have moved to Canterlot long ago. Pinkie could have stuck to the road like Cheese Sandwich did. And so on and so forth. The whole rainboom interconnecting them, well that's one part coincidence (how many other ponies got their cutie mark that day?) and one part showcasing that their bond's strength.

I just rewatched that part, and in context she's saying that the Mane 6 have full control of the Element's power while she and Luna only had partial control. Also throughout that entire scene she managed to say she was wrong about things something like three times. An expert on the Elements and Discord, she is not.


Anyways getting back to my original point. If Celestia and Luna in the handbook have to go on some epic quest to become alicorns in order to have the power to raise the sun and moon, then I retract my criticism of them. However, the impression that I got is that they just tried to raise the sun and moon and ended up having the power all along. In other words, I don't feel that they actually earned it and were instead granted it, which I don't like when it was such a big deal.

[Forum Explorer]

Wow.

That's really the only reaction my brain can come up with.

Because if it had worked when Discord tried it, there wouldn't be a show.




The setting already violates canon by introducing deities and an overdeity, and somebody dying who is currently alive in the show. I think it can survive two beings in all of existence that the elements of Harmony don't work on (The villain, and the overdeity of death respectively. Wouldn't work on the latter anyway, since she's good aligned.)

And if Celestia didn't feel like bugging the mane 6 for this threat, she'd be a very poor excuse for a goodguy.

Though, now we're getting into three separate settings (What I was asking the initial question for, my D&D setting, and the show itself), this is liable to get confusing, and the original question has since become moot regardless, this time I feel I should simply head out of this thread before I annoy people more.

Sorry for being a bother.

Ta-ta forever.

EDIT: If somebody feels there's something I really REALLY need to respond to, they can PM me.

Is that a good wow or a bad wow?


To be fair, Discord practically handed them the Elements. He could have just buried them in the dirt somewhere and just not interacted with the Mane 6 at all. A villain less insane as Discord might not be willing to be so 'sporting'.


Who is the villain anyways? I'm kinda curious. Also do you disagree with our assessment of what Celestia would do in a losing fight?


No don't leave! At least not forever.

[DigoDragon]

Back from Build-A-Bear.
Went with the intention of buying my daughter Applejack, but when she saw that they had some Rainbow Dashes left, she wanted her instead. One thing I really like about our local B-A-B is that half the employees are bronies. Pro Tip: B-A-B is planning to retire Dash and Pinkie soon, so if you're mulling over buying one, do so soon. Anyway, my daughter also saw that they were selling The Great and Powerful Trixie there.

So she strong-armed me into buying one for myself. Heh.

We chatted with the employee who did the stuffing and she said that the next pony to be release should be Celestia. Not sure if she'll be larger than the standard ponies though (Maybe this is a sign they'll do a Luna too?) Bonus was that the employee added a little extra fluff to my Trixie's behind. So she's got "extra swagger".

Now to find the camera and take pictures of them...

Sorry for being a bother.

Nah, don't feel that you're a bother. The debates might seem like serious business, but at the end of the day we love having deep discussions like this. How else do you think we got to thread number LXXXI?

[Rater202]

Ta-ta forever.

EDIT: If somebody feels there's something I really REALLY need to respond to, they can PM me.

No! Don't leave, this is fun!

That might have been mystic muse actually.

Oh no, Muse is responding logically to responses and isn't being an asshat about it.

this guy, everytime I pointed ut something from FiM canon that wouldn't allow for Lovecraft style Cosmic horror, he's complete ignore my argument by calling everything I said "Verses Thread Logic".

Spoiler: Exact Argument, for those interested

Show

He wanted a Crossover story involving Lovecrafts horrors having been in Equestria all along. The elements of Harmony were Drawing on one of them, and Discord is the Black Pharaoh.

I pointed out that this would require essentially ignoring alot about the pony core setting.

At the Elements of harmony would not and could not work the way they do if they were drawing on, and that Discord's personality is wrong for an avatar/aspect/mask of the black Pharaoh.

I then point out that several of the things necessary for Cosmic horror are not present in Equestria as a setting.

Cosmic horror requires humans to not be the masters of the world in which they live.
In the world in which the ponies live, the sun doesn't come up in the morning unless a pony deliberately makes it rise. That's more than sufficient proof that the ponies are the master's of there world, and that's before you add the "They control thr weather" thing

Cosmic horror requires humans to be wrong about how the world works, and for human notions about morality to be irrelevent on the cosmic scale.
Pony Morality is objectivly right on not only the cosmic but metaphysical scale, what with Friendship being literally the strongest magic in the world.

I then point out that the closest thing to what he wanted would be to, in story, have an eldritch abomination come from an other world to the pony world, but between the Elelemnts of Harmony and the fact that Discord works for the good guys now, it would end up sent home/destroyed/imprisoned after 2 episodes

He proceeded to focus on that part of my argumen to the exclusion of everything else, and said that he wasn't doing a vs thread, but an "entertaining subversion"

Though to be honest, if you're going so far out of your way to ignore the setting to write a stroy about ponies being killed and driven insane, I'm thinking that maybe you just want Grimdark for the sake of Grimdark

[Pokonic]

Spoiler: Exact Argument, for those interested

Show

He wanted a Crossover story involving Lovecrafts horrors having been in Equestria all along. The elements of Harmony were Drawing on one of them, and Discord is the Black Pharaoh.

I pointed out that this would require essentially ignoring alot about the pony core setting.

At the Elements of harmony would not and could not work the way they do if they were drawing on, and that Discord's personality is wrong for an avatar/aspect/mask of the black Pharaoh.

I then point out that several of the things necessary for Cosmic horror are not present in Equestria as a setting.

Cosmic horror requires humans to not be the masters of the world in which they live.
In the world in which the ponies live, the sun doesn't come up in the morning unless a pony deliberately makes it rise. That's more than sufficient proof that the ponies are the master's of there world, and that's before you add the "They control thr weather" thing

Cosmic horror requires humans to be wrong about how the world works, and for human notions about morality to be irrelevent on the cosmic scale.
Pony Morality is objectivly right on not only the cosmic but metaphysical scale, what with Friendship being literally the strongest magic in the world.

I then point out that the closest thing to what he wanted would be to, in story, have an eldritch abomination come from an other world to the pony world, but between the Elelemnts of Harmony and the fact that Discord works for the good guys now, it would end up sent home/destroyed/imprisoned after 2 episodes

He proceeded to focus on that part of my argumen to the exclusion of everything else, and said that he wasn't doing a vs thread, but an "entertaining subversion"

Though to be honest, if you're going so far out of your way to ignore the setting to write a stroy about ponies being killed and driven insane, I'm thinking that maybe you just want Grimdark for the sake of Grimdark

I'm throwing in my argument against this, because this annoys me.

Spoiler:

Show

It's actually hilariously easy to tie in the Cthulhu Mythos into the ponyverse, with the proper mindset, on multiple levels. Besides Discord being a genuine unnatural, reality-shaping being that toys with ponies because it can, the Everfree Forest is a unnatural deathtrap that operates on laws utterly unnatural to ponies and there's at least one mysteriously vanishing city-empire. Daring Doo actually opened up a nice big way for old civilizations to be explored, in a conveniently pulpy fashion.

Daring Doo and the Plateau of Peng? Daring Doo and the Soapstone Statue? Daring Doo and the Thing On The Doorstep?

Regardless, one could literally just go back to the older generations and match up names of various nastiest with old villains. The Smooze is basically a big ol' shoggoth, Midnight Castle's synopsis consists of a unnatural chimerical creature with a magical organ kidnapping innocent villagers and transforming them into squamous beasts. Grogar was a necromancer who dwelled within a city staffed with lizard-men, which got temporally shifted generations ago. The jokes about Seaponies and places called Hoofsmouth write themselves.

You are focusing primarily on the idea that the addition of some lovecraftian elements automatically requires the story to become a Cosmic Horror Story, which is a folly. One can't say that ponies are not important in the world, if one goes with this view; the exact opposite is perfectly applicable. With ponies controlling such fundamental aspects of the world, it's a matter of asking if the rest of the world is managed in a similar fashion or if other species, like donkeys and zebras and all the rest, are ultimately irrelevant to the state of the world.



On her gilded throne, in the lands where the natural order has long since died under the comforting hooves of her subjects, the Sun holds court with those who once moved the stars. Such it has been for a thousand years, and such it will be until the stars aid in her escape.

[Mystic Muse]

Since people are curious, I'll post explanations for what I had in mind after Friday Night Magic. For now, I have to go.

[HalfTangible]

So, it's been a while since I've ventured into one of these threads, but I have a question for you guys, because I'm curious.

How would you expect Celestia to deal with a threat well beyond her power?

I don't mean Chrysalis, Discord, Nightmare Moon, ETC. where somebody else is capable of dealing with it, I mean a situation where she is the only option available, and has no way of overpowering her foe.

Additional dilemma: What if the villain in question refuses to let Celestia redeem them?

I'm curious what options people will come up with besides just "She loses"

Do what a small nation does when faced with a vast empire: Outwit and outmanuver it. Small guerilla forces outlast empires by being quick, striking hard and fading fast. Kill it with bug bites, as they say. Celestia would become a war general for a guerilla movement. She could utilize the talents of her ponies in weakening the enemy through whatever means were at her disposal. Earth ponies could disrupt food sources, pegasi could bring the weather crashing down on the foe, unicorns can cast mighty spells, etc etc. I imagine that she'd also call on any allies she could muster. Saddle Arabia, the Crystal Empire, etc etc.

It's also possible for her to offer/deny services only she and the pony race could provide. Potentially, she could threaten the enemy with dereliction of her duty as sun-raiser, for instance, or Earth Ponies could refuse to grow crops.

If Celestia were alone and had no resources or allies to call upon, I imagine she'd go into hiding and just wait until the enemy died, helping wherever she could.

[otakuryoga]

Back from Build-A-Bear.
Went with the intention of buying my daughter Applejack, but when she saw that they had some Rainbow Dashes left, she wanted her instead.

sigh..you try to raise them right and then they go so wrong.....

[Rater202]

I'm throwing in my argument against this, because this annoys me.

Spoiler:

Show

It's actually hilariously easy to tie in the Cthulhu Mythos into the ponyverse, with the proper mindset, on multiple levels. Besides Discord being a genuine unnatural, reality-shaping being that toys with ponies because it can, the Everfree Forest is a unnatural deathtrap that operates on laws utterly unnatural to ponies and there's at least one mysteriously vanishing city-empire. Daring Doo actually opened up a nice big way for old civilizations to be explored, in a conveniently pulpy fashion.

Daring Doo and the Plateau of Peng? Daring Doo and the Soapstone Statue? Daring Doo and the Thing On The Doorstep?

Regardless, one could literally just go back to the older generations and match up names of various nastiest with old villains. The Smooze is basically a big ol' shoggoth, Midnight Castle's synopsis consists of a unnatural chimerical creature with a magical organ kidnapping innocent villagers and transforming them into squamous beasts. Grogar was a necromancer who dwelled within a city staffed with lizard-men, which got temporally shifted generations ago. The jokes about Seaponies and places called Hoofsmouth write themselves.

You are focusing primarily on the idea that the addition of some lovecraftian elements automatically requires the story to become a Cosmic Horror Story, which is a folly. One can't say that ponies are not important in the world, if one goes with this view; the exact opposite is perfectly applicable. With ponies controlling such fundamental aspects of the world, it's a matter of asking if the rest of the world is managed in a similar fashion or if other species, like donkeys and zebras and all the rest, are ultimately irrelevant to the state of the world.



On her gilded throne, in the lands where the natural order has long since died under the comforting hooves of her subjects, the Sun holds court with those who once moved the stars. Such it has been for a thousand years, and such it will be until the stars aid in her escape.

Spoiler: Rebuttle to your rebuttle

Show

Your first point isn'at actually adressing any part of my argument.

The discussion where I originally made the argument was specifically about Turning MLP into aCosmic Horror Story by including Lovecraftian elements, hence my focus.

You can add the elements all ya want, but the rules of the setting make cosmic horror impossible.

As for your second point, placing the Ponies in the "Eldritch Abomination" role, well, they aren't alien enough in mind or body, they don't toy with the lives of mortals at best, and they aren't actively malevolent at worst.

Discord toyed with Ponies, but again, he's not alien and was reformed, so he doesn't work as a Eldritch Abomination either.

[Topaz]

This one's for the Commodore, I put it up as the link because the artist note is part of the funny:

♫ Hooray for him ♪

[DigoDragon]

sigh..you try to raise them right and then they go so wrong.....

I know. I failed her.

This one's for the Commodore, I put it up as the link because the artist note is part of the funny:
♫ Hooray for him ♪

Pfffthahahaha!! The artist note is perfect for it.

[Aotrs Commander]

This one's for the Commodore, I put it up as the link because the artist note is part of the funny:

♫ Hooray for him ♪

Win.

Because I haven't seen past Season 2.

You should probably rectify that. This past season, in paricular, has been extremely good.

I'm running an MLP D&D campaign. The villain can't be affected by the elements of Harmony, because if she could, then there IS no campaign. There's just "Hey, Celestia? There's a big insane bad guy who wants to get rid of magic. You should send the elements of Harmony to stop them. Kthxbai."

Worth noting that if you had given us those boundary conditions and/or some more details to start with (i.e. what you really wanted a way to have the villain and not get Celestia/elements involved), we could have provided a lot more concrete help. (Still could, actually...) This sort of thing the more you tell us, the more we can help you. We are stupendously good at analysing the minutae and such...

[DigoDragon]

Prepare your Pancreas

Spoiler

Show

[Tiki Snakes]

I'm throwing in my argument against this, because this annoys me.

Spoiler:

Show

It's actually hilariously easy to tie in the Cthulhu Mythos into the ponyverse, with the proper mindset, on multiple levels. Besides Discord being a genuine unnatural, reality-shaping being that toys with ponies because it can, the Everfree Forest is a unnatural deathtrap that operates on laws utterly unnatural to ponies and there's at least one mysteriously vanishing city-empire. Daring Doo actually opened up a nice big way for old civilizations to be explored, in a conveniently pulpy fashion.

Daring Doo and the Plateau of Peng? Daring Doo and the Soapstone Statue? Daring Doo and the Thing On The Doorstep?

Regardless, one could literally just go back to the older generations and match up names of various nastiest with old villains. The Smooze is basically a big ol' shoggoth, Midnight Castle's synopsis consists of a unnatural chimerical creature with a magical organ kidnapping innocent villagers and transforming them into squamous beasts. Grogar was a necromancer who dwelled within a city staffed with lizard-men, which got temporally shifted generations ago. The jokes about Seaponies and places called Hoofsmouth write themselves.

You are focusing primarily on the idea that the addition of some lovecraftian elements automatically requires the story to become a Cosmic Horror Story, which is a folly. One can't say that ponies are not important in the world, if one goes with this view; the exact opposite is perfectly applicable. With ponies controlling such fundamental aspects of the world, it's a matter of asking if the rest of the world is managed in a similar fashion or if other species, like donkeys and zebras and all the rest, are ultimately irrelevant to the state of the world.



On her gilded throne, in the lands where the natural order has long since died under the comforting hooves of her subjects, the Sun holds court with those who once moved the stars. Such it has been for a thousand years, and such it will be until the stars aid in her escape.

Spoiler: Rebuttle to your rebuttle

Show

Your first point isn'at actually adressing any part of my argument.

The discussion where I originally made the argument was specifically about Turning MLP into aCosmic Horror Story by including Lovecraftian elements, hence my focus.

You can add the elements all ya want, but the rules of the setting make cosmic horror impossible.

As for your second point, placing the Ponies in the "Eldritch Abomination" role, well, they aren't alien enough in mind or body, they don't toy with the lives of mortals at best, and they aren't actively malevolent at worst.

Discord toyed with Ponies, but again, he's not alien and was reformed, so he doesn't work as a Eldritch Abomination either.

Spoiler: Things pony was not meant to know!

Show

Yeah, I'm with Rater on this actually. Simply tying in the cthulhu mythos is easy, but that's not the same thing at all as making it a lovecraftian or cosmic horror story. That's a whole different kettle of fish and far from simple to achieve without either missing the point of cosmic horror or changing the setting so much as to not really be the setting we know at all anymore, thus kind of getting the thing disqualified on a technicality.

[Rater202]

Prepare your Pancreas

Spoiler

Show

Aren't those two a little young for romantic preening?

Spoiler: Things pony was not meant to know!

Show

Yeah, I'm with Rater on this actually. Simply tying in the cthulhu mythos is easy, but that's not the same thing at all as making it a lovecraftian or cosmic horror story. That's a whole different kettle of fish and far from simple to achieve without either missing the point of cosmic horror or changing the setting so much as to not really be the setting we know at all anymore, thus kind of getting the thing disqualified on a technicality.

...
...
...
...Did you just agree with me?

[Tiki Snakes]

Don't let it go to your head, man. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.