So I've made the ultimate Anti-Mage???

[ArqArturo]

Sorry.

The build is good, but... In my opinion, the most effective Anti-mage is a CoDzilla.

[Vogonjeltz]

By stopping you from walking through it, it is in fact affecting you. After that, you just have to prove that it's a condition or effect, and poof, door gone.

Objects aren't conditions or effects.

Isn't there a list of conditions in the DMG somewhere?

[eggynack]

Objects aren't conditions or effects.

Isn't there a list of conditions in the DMG somewhere?

That is indeed the challenge here. Fortunately, forcecages don't suffer from this issue, as they're a spell. On the condition list thing, it is in no way encompassing of all conditions, and it in no way defines the term.

[Vogonjeltz]

That is indeed the challenge here. Fortunately, forcecages don't suffer from this issue, as they're a spell. On the condition list thing, it is in no way encompassing of all conditions, and it in no way defines the term.

A spell that isn't affecting anything.

Enchantment and Transmutation spells are more likely to be affecting a character.

[eggynack]

A spell that isn't affecting anything.

It's affecting the character. By making him unable to walk beyond the forcecage. So too, repel metal is affecting the character by pushing him away.

[DMVerdandi]

Sorry.

The build is good, but... In my opinion, the most effective Anti-mage is a CoDzilla.

I wouldn't even call it good, BUT you are absolutely right.
The best way to oppose WIZARDS, is through using the other tier 1[and specialized high tier 2] classes, and out prepping them.
Lock down their ability to escape, generally have more than one entity on the table so that you can make best use of micromanagement and action economy, Have some good metamagic going on so you can make optimal use of your resources, and generally shut down their ability to shut you down.

A cleric can be used, a druid can be used, psions can be used, archivists can be used, and so on.

Druid and cleric probably enjoy the most usefulness, as they have access to their whole lists, and they have really big, really awesome lists.

[eggynack]

I wouldn't even call it good, BUT you are absolutely right.
The best way to oppose WIZARDS, is through using the other tier 1[and specialized high tier 2] classes, and out prepping them.
Lock down their ability to escape, generally have more than one entity on the table so that you can make best use of micromanagement and action economy, Have some good metamagic going on so you can make optimal use of your resources, and generally shut down their ability to shut you down.

A cleric can be used, a druid can be used, psions can be used, archivists can be used, and so on.

Druid and cleric probably enjoy the most usefulness, as they have access to their whole lists, and they have really big, really awesome lists.

Also, druids can do the whole aberration wild shape for will-o'-wisp form thing, and get immunity to magic. I'm coming nowhere close to saying that immunity to magic is a perfect caster defense, but it's at least a really good one, especially when you have some offensive might, which a druid does. Very fancy business. Clerics tend more towards the cheater of mystra or crazy dispel magic side of things in their anti-magic techniques. Alternatively, there's always a second wizard.

[eternal]

Clerics tend more towards the cheater of mystra or crazy dispel magic side of things in their anti-magic techniques.

As someone who is getting into clerics a little I'm going to ask what is a cheater of mystra and how does that work?

edit
I know the persisted anti-magic field with extraordinary spell aim but mystra is new to me.

[eggynack]

As someone who is getting into clerics a little I'm going to ask what is a cheater of mystra and how does that work?

edit
I know the persisted anti-magic field with extraordinary spell aim but mystra is new to me.

It's the informal term for the feat initiate of mystra, from player's guide to faerun, which enables a cleric to cast in dead magic zones and anti-magic fields with a caster level check. Pretty crazy stuff, which is the derivation of the name.

[eternal]

It's the informal term for the feat initiate of mystra, from player's guide to faerun, which enables a cleric to cast in dead magic zones and anti-magic fields with a caster level check. Pretty crazy stuff, which is the derivation of the name.

Correct me if I'm wrong then wouldn't that be better than extraordinary spell aim? I mean with extraordinary spell aim you can still be targeted but if you could cast in any dead zone with a check..... That is pretty crazy.

Edit:
wouldn't you lose your pre buffed spells unless you used extraordinary spell aim? well... even still your able to cast with a check which is still insane.

[eggynack]

Correct me if I'm wrong then wouldn't that be better than extraordinary spell aim? I mean with extraordinary spell aim you can still be targeted but if you could cast in any dead zone with a check..... That is pretty crazy.

Well, I'm pretty sure that you still get your buffs turned off with initiate of mystra, while you don't with extraordinary spell aim depending on interpretation, and you don't need a high caster level. Initiate of mystra is pretty crazy though, especially when you consider the fact that it adds awesome spells to your list, including anyspell and its greater counterpart.

[eternal]

Well, I'm pretty sure that you still get your buffs turned off with initiate of mystra, while you don't with extraordinary spell aim depending on interpretation, and you don't need a high caster level. Initiate of mystra is pretty crazy though, especially when you consider the fact that it adds awesome spells to your list, including anyspell and its greater counterpart.

It's worth taking both then. I'm looking at that spell list now. Nice stuff. Def worth taking both feats. I'll add that to the list of must haves for my current build I'm playing. Thanks for that nugget.

edit:
Like I said in my other post this is why I love this forum.

[Vogonjeltz]

It's affecting the character. By making him unable to walk beyond the forcecage. So too, repel metal is affecting the character by pushing him away.

I don't agree with your reasoning, with repel metal the metal (if any) is being affected, not the character.

With force cage there is just a cage present that the PC is trying to push. No affecting going on there.

[Darkweave31]

Sorry.

The build is good, but... In my opinion, the most effective Anti-mage is a CoDzilla.

I'm personally a fan of a cheater of mystra using divine defiance and inquisition domain to counterspell as an immediate action while sporting a wide range of countermagic and dweomerkeeper shenanigans as well.

[Vaz]

I don't agree with your reasoning, with repel metal the metal (if any) is being affected, not the character.

With force cage there is just a cage present that the PC is trying to push. No affecting going on there.

Can you define an effect then? If you really want to banal about it, we are all made up of atoms which are 99.9% empty space (explains many people in high school tbh), which by the RAW means we are capable of passing through anything.

But that way lies madness. If you are being affected by something, as a result of somethings effect (ie gravity), you can change that. I suppose you could even IHS the lack of something - our bodies are used to operating in a full gravity atmosphere, no gravity means our bodies are being affected by the effects of a gravityless environment, IHS to end that, congratulations you just created gravity in the astral plane.

[Somensjev]

I don't agree with your reasoning, with repel metal the metal (if any) is being affected, not the character.

With force cage there is just a cage present that the PC is trying to push. No affecting going on there.

all you've got to do is take the definitions of effect and condition, and twist the english language until whatever you want fits under those definitions

Spoiler: online dictionary, so results may vary

Show

effect
: a change that results when something is done or happens : an event, condition, or state of affairs that is produced by a cause

: a particular feeling or mood created by something

: an image or a sound that is created in television, radio, or movies to imitate something real


condition
: a way of living or existing

: the state in which something exists : the physical state of something

: the physical or mental state of a person or animal

using any of these definitions, or any of the others you can find for the two words, you have to figure out how to apply it to your current situation


for example: i am trapped, is that an effect or condition? yes, one of the meanings of condition is "a way of living or existing" and that would include trapped, would it not? therefore i can IHS the condition of being trapped, i am no longer trapped

[eggynack]

I don't agree with your reasoning, with repel metal the metal (if any) is being affected, not the character.

With force cage there is just a cage present that the PC is trying to push. No affecting going on there.

There's nothing in the definition for affect that says that the change has to be produced directly. Both of these spells produce a change in the fighter, by producing a change in his circumstances.

[Esprit15]

Why not just IHS damage then?

[Snowbluff]

Excuse me, I don't see Iron Heart Surge in your build. How do you deal with forcecages or repel metal?

Force Cage doesn't have a target or subjects. An effect has to affect a target to affect them.

EDIT: Wow, ninjaed.

[Somensjev]

Why not just IHS damage then?

down that path is things like the sun, or gravity, or existence. do you really want to go that way?

[eggynack]

Why not just IHS damage then?

I don't know. Why not just IHS damage? Reductio ad absurdium isn't going to work here, because my argument is somewhat rooted in the idea that the ability is absurd. There might be some argument against IHS working on damage. I'm not really in the mood to come up with it.

Edit: However, do note that your example is somewhat flawed by the fact that we're not working with a spell here. That's one of the big benefits of the forcecage argument, that I don't need to prove that forcecage is an effect or condition. If you want to show that you can't IHS damage, I'd start there, but it's a path that has a good chance of not working.

[Snowbluff]

*ahem* Damaged isn't a listed condition or otherwise described as such in the game.

[Vhaidara]

Why not just IHS damage then?

One of my players once tried to IHS me. When I ruled that he couldn't do that, he IHSed the rule that stopped him from doing that. I still haven't fully returned to existence.

[eggynack]

*ahem* Damaged isn't a listed condition or otherwise described as such in the game.

Doesn't technically mean that damaged cannot be a condition. Y'know, blah blah blah, no listed definition, blooh blee blim, default to English, semantics semantics semantics, and there ya go. Counter argument.

[Somensjev]

*ahem* Damaged isn't a listed condition or otherwise described as such in the game.

ah, but can it be classed as an effect? i didn't believe there was a proper game term for effect (i didn't think there was one for condition either, but you seem to be implying otherwise), so we had to default to english definitions, which is why the ability is absurd


edit:

Doesn't technically mean that damaged cannot be a condition. Y'know, blah blah blah, no listed definition, blooh blee blim, default to English, semantics semantics semantics, and there ya go. Counter argument.

poor eggy, look how tired and bored he is. don't worry, i'll try to pick up the argument for you

[Snowbluff]

ah, but can it be classed as an effect? i didn't believe there was a proper game term for effect (i didn't think there was one for condition either, but you seem to be implying otherwise), so we had to default to english definitions, which is why the ability is absurd

Actually, we know to an extent what an effect entails. All spells are effects, for example. Typically, anything persisting past instantaneous is under the Conditions Summary. By RAW, these are most of the things recognized as valid targets of IHS. So I don't think we default to English at this point, as much as I prefer that method of argument.

[eggynack]

poor eggy, look how tired and bored he is. don't worry, i'll try to pick up the argument for you

I dunno. I feel like I got most of it in there.

Actually, we know to an extent what an effect entails. All spells are effects, for example. Typically, anything persisting past instantaneous is under the Conditions Summary. By RAW, these are most of the things recognized as valid targets of IHS. So I don't think we default to English at this point, as much as I prefer that method of argument.

Typically and most are meaningless, and the term isn't defined. We pretty much have to default to English. There's no other choice.

[Snowbluff]

Typically and most are meaningless, and the term isn't defined. We pretty much have to default to English. There's no other choice.

"Does the game say this is an effect?" or "Does the game call this a condition?" Y/N. The terms aren't defined, but the abilities they ascribe to are labeled. Anything past that is "the rules don't say I can't."

I used the word typically here to refer to abilities that don't do either. I can't name any of the top of my head that aren't a spell, or don't inflict a condition, but also can be applied to a PC. Probably a supernatural ability that makes daisies or whatever.

[Rubik]

Divine magic is the power of the gods, a righteous magic given power by their holiness.

I think you mean, "Power leached off of believers like blood by some spiritual parasite and then fed back to them like they're doing them a favor."

Arcane magic is an abomination against nature, man subjugating the power that should be the gods' for personal gain.

Or possibly, "Scientifically identified means of tapping the latent power of the universe, showing the ultimate triumph and beauty of the mind."

[Snowbluff]

I think you mean, "Power leached off of believers like blood by some spiritual parasite and then fed back to them like they're doing them a favor."

Nah, that's how they used to do things, if the term "Urpriest" means anything.