General Exalted Discussion XVI: Chej Kejak, Pokegod Trainer!

[golentan]

Not necessarily. Lunars support their pet projects and get the ball rolling, but it's the mortals who are running things and managing everything if it's done right. That's the point. There aren't enough exalted to manage everything at the fringes, so it has to be the mortals who keep things together.

[Rikandur_Azebol]

Nah. We've got Hate Springs Eternal, but no Hope yet.

Nobody likes momma Kimbery, huh ?

As for TSR, mortals can make artifacts up to 3 dots, which ought to be enough to pack a pretty significant punch if you can convince the society to start seriously investing in their magical future.

With specialized crafter teams ? No real limit to just 3 dot artifacts. But on the other hand, Exalted tend to waltz in and ruin such advanced societies for their own gain. For example, Realmsters would strip-mine it for anything not nailed to the floor. Until they are barely able to live, as a society. Loonars would experiment on them until it all go wrong. Siddies don't really care if they bring ruin to the mortal ants in their grand designs to get pay rise or achieve some other "lofty" goal. Solaroids ? For them such kingdoms and societies are clay to be formed to their whims. At best. Or just fuel to be thrown into the fires of their ambitions.

[SaurOps]

What's wrong with Lunar God-kings, statesmen, and manipulators of world politics? I really don't like lunars being nothing but barbarians at the edge of the world gnawing at the roots of civilization. 2e isn't perfect, but I enjoy that there's a wide variety of things up for interpretation because it lets me make MY creation without violating canon, and 1e fluff bugs me more often than 2e. I've commented before about the fetishizing of 1e fluff, I don't think that because it got here first it's necessarily better.

How are you going to run anything at all if the great big huge empire stealing wealth from everyone has the resources to send armies after you or just smite you off the face of Creation with a First Age superweapon? The answer is that you don't, which is why the late 1e retcon that flowed into 2e didn't work. Lunars can't run societies all across Creation because they would end up dying in droves, and the new ones wouldn't be able to do much more than run to the hills and prod at the Realm with rebellions and feints to make them use more valuable weapons than necessary. This is what we'll be getting in EX3. It makes a lot more sense, and doesn't put Lunars out in the middle of nowhere.

I like them being the defenders of the borders of creation too, but I don't like that that's the only option that the book seems to believe they have open to them. Same with abyssals, who've been way too pigeonholed by the color of their anima. I want lunars to excel at a bunch of things, rather than spending all their time hanging out with people who think swords are needlessly technical when you could build an axe or spear instead. I want lunars to excel at a variety of things across creation, I want them to hold back the tides of the Wyld AND build fascinating societies and innovent (sic) interesting and unique takes on essence, artifacts, and sorcery.

No one holds back the tides of the Wyld. Not the Lunars, not the Solars, not even the Incarna. If the Lunars tried, they would rapidly end up overextended and unable to do anything but make a mediocre showing at trying, like a bunch of people standing in the ocean, and about as interesting. Creation's borders aren't where the action is. Going there should be a journey into an unknown, mystifying and dangerous place, not the status quoe, but nonetheless they aren't the focus of Exalted. That would be Creation.

As for the 1e ST chapter crap, no one's asking for that. When people say that it's good that EX3 Lunars are closer to EX1 Lunars, that is not on the list of things that's present, much less that people might be thankful for.

[HalfTangible]

How are you going to run anything at all if the great big huge empire stealing wealth from everyone has the resources to send armies after you or just smite you off the face of Creation with a First Age superweapon? The answer is that you don't, which is why the late 1e retcon that flowed into 2e didn't work. Lunars can't run societies all across Creation because they would end up dying in droves, and the new ones wouldn't be able to do much more than run to the hills and prod at the Realm with rebellions and feints to make them use more valuable weapons than necessary. This is what we'll be getting in EX3. It makes a lot more sense, and doesn't put Lunars out in the middle of nowhere.

Actually, if they have no reason to be near cities, then they have no reason to leave the 'middle of nowhere'.

It also puts Lunars in the position of being useless and aimless. Lunars need a reason to go to the central parts of Creation, else it's all but impossible to run a proper campaign. But if you specifically say that the Realm is going to do everything in its power to eliminate you - even if it's a higher cost than would be worth it - that raises the question of why they would ever return.

No one holds back the tides of the Wyld. Not the Lunars, not the Solars, not even the Incarna. If the Lunars tried, they would rapidly end up overextended and unable to do anything but make a mediocre showing at trying, like a bunch of people standing in the ocean, and about as interesting. Creation's borders aren't where the action is. Going there should be a journey into an unknown, mystifying and dangerous place, not the status quoe, but nonetheless they aren't the focus of Exalted. That would be Creation.

So... it's impossible and unrealistic.

You do know what RPG you're talking about, right? 'Impossible' and 'unrealistic' are both code for 'this is the interesting stuff'.

As for the 1e ST chapter crap, no one's asking for that. When people say that it's good that EX3 Lunars are closer to EX1 Lunars, that is not on the list of things that's present, much less that people might be thankful for.

I dunno, man. I've seen people be thankful and thankless for some pretty confusing things.
"HOW DARE YOU lower the price!!!"
"Oh, thank you oh so very much for doing that thing you should've done in the first place"

[Kymme]

The Haslanti were founded and saved repeatedly by Lunar Exalted intervention in their history. In my experience an open lunar is going to be treated kind of like a living saint in a non-religious environment. "What have you done for me lately," combined with an attitude that you can't actually ask that of a living saint. You'll be given the benefit of the doubt but if you abuse it you're not going to keep the respect of the people around you.

Thank you for your response, golentan. I appear to have started some kind of... altercation, so I'll amscray.

Chances are I'll be back later with more questions.

[golentan]

As mentioned, this is Exalted. If a celestial commands the tide not to come in, the tide damn well better have the sense to not wet his robes.

Thank you for your response, golentan. I appear to have started some kind of... altercation, so I'll amscray.

Chances are I'll be back later with more questions.

Be not afraid! I'm happy to help give advice, the number one piece of which is to ignore advice that seems bad for your game. Be it from the other folks here, myself, the developers, or anyone else.

[SaurOps]

Actually, if they have no reason to be near cities, then they have no reason to leave the 'middle of nowhere'.

It also puts Lunars in the position of being useless and aimless. Lunars need a reason to go to the central parts of Creation, else it's all but impossible to run a proper campaign. But if you specifically say that the Realm is going to do everything in its power to eliminate you - even if it's a higher cost than would be worth it - that raises the question of why they would ever return.

Yes, the reason is that the edge of the world is also hostile, with its Wyld refugees and monsters and such, and that the Lunars aren't exactly going to take their defeat lying down. They have the advantage when there are no grand Solar leftovers propping up the empire on the Blessed Isle. So, all they have to do is keep making it bleed. Eventually, all of the systems that the Scarlet Empire relies on will break down utterly, and the Terrestrials that ran the show will be back to square one, which deprives them of all the things that they turned against the Lunars to actually drive them away. No defense automatons, no incredible sorcerous weapons of a past age - just hastily-made daiklaves with no Evocations to speak of against almost 400 Lunars, each with access to a war form on par with the combat capability of a daiklave with Evocations. And in addition to the Lunars themselves, all of the other forces that hate the Realm will be free to take their vengeance on it at last.

So... it's impossible and unrealistic.

You do know what RPG you're talking about, right? 'Impossible' and 'unrealistic' are both code for 'this is the interesting stuff'.

I know that people take that meme way too far way too often. Are you going to start chanting lines from Libera Me From Hell now?

I dunno, man. I've seen people be thankful and thankless for some pretty confusing things.
"HOW DARE YOU lower the price!!!"
"Oh, thank you oh so very much for doing that thing you should've done in the first place"

I don't recall anyone ever defending the 1e Lunars ST chapter. Because it clearly doesn't deserve it.

[Rater202]

Are you going to start chanting lines from Libera Me From Hell now?

Spoiler: You really shouldn't tempt fate like that.

Show

[golentan]

It really is appropriate, you know. All those are things that exalts CAN do.

[HalfTangible]

Yes, the reason is that the edge of the world is also hostile, with its Wyld refugees and monsters and such, and that the Lunars aren't exactly going to take their defeat lying down. They have the advantage when there are no grand Solar leftovers propping up the empire on the Blessed Isle. So, all they have to do is keep making it bleed. Eventually, all of the systems that the Scarlet Empire relies on will break down utterly, and the Terrestrials that ran the show will be back to square one, which deprives them of all the things that they turned against the Lunars to actually drive them away. No defense automatons, no incredible sorcerous weapons of a past age - just hastily-made daiklaves with no Evocations to speak of against almost 400 Lunars, each with access to a war form on par with the combat capability of a daiklave with Evocations. And in addition to the Lunars themselves, all of the other forces that hate the Realm will be free to take their vengeance on it at last.

*facepalm* Yeah, I get that it makes sense strategically. That's not the issue. The problem is that a plan like that makes it impossible for the Lunars to act as campaign protagonists.

Look at what you're suggesting for a minute. Lunars still can't go into mortal cities under these circumstances in any significant number, or they'll be instantly annihilated. Their support networks are in the wilds of the world, their enemies are outside of Creation and trying to fight their way in. The only reason a Lunar would go to a city would be to destabilize it. A Lunar in that circumstance is an antagonist.

I know that people take that meme way too far way too often. Are you going to start chanting lines from Libera Me From Hell now?

Honestly, this kind of situation is why the (admittedly overused) meme exists. Sure, the Exalted have limits, but the whole point of Exaltation is that those limits are few, far between and will run into mote pool limitations long before they run into straight up impossibilities (less "I can't lift a mountain" and more "I can't lift this mountain on an empty stomach"). Heck, if 'they defend all corners of creation at once' is too ridiculous to accept (even though it would give the Lunars something worth having ><) have it just be SEVERAL areas of Creation. Or have the fact that they're stretched thin be part of the point of the Lunars' identity!

Also I don't know that song.

*sees the image* Oh wait, yes I do. I just don't know the lyrics. Beyond 'Row row fight the powah'

I don't recall anyone ever defending the 1e Lunars ST chapter. Because it clearly doesn't deserve it.

I've heard people say it was still better than 2e's. I haven't read 1e, but if that's even close to true then White Wolf should hang its head in shame.

[golentan]

1e's depiction of lunars and the locust crusade easily beat out any in setting candidates for creation's greatest crimes.

[HalfTangible]

1e's depiction of lunars and the locust crusade easily beat out any in setting candidates for creation's greatest crimes.

... in that it was poorly written, or in that the Lunars were horrible creatures?

... Cuz the whole 'turn a massive swath of Creation into Wyld for a training exercise' is pretty tough to beat

[golentan]

... in that it was poorly written, or in that the Lunars were horrible creatures?

... Cuz the whole 'turn a massive swath of Creation into Wyld for a training exercise' is pretty tough to beat

In that it was poorly written. If you think lunars didn't get nice things in 2e, my god was it worse in 1e. As someone wrote on these very forums:

first edition lunars are hampered greatly by their rules. They have combat charms where you can spend essence to multi attack worse than when you split your die pool with no charm at all. They have a die adder charm that is just like its prerequisite with addition of more restrictions.

Though the Locust Crusade got pretty out of hand in the in setting atrocities as well as being poorly written. The alchemicals picked up the villain ball and ran with it straight into Captain Planet level stupid evil villainy.

[SaurOps]

Spoiler: You really shouldn't tempt fate like that.

Show

This is so PREDICTABO!

*facepalm* Yeah, I get that it makes sense strategically. That's not the issue. The problem is that a plan like that makes it impossible for the Lunars to act as campaign protagonists.

Look at what you're suggesting for a minute. Lunars still can't go into mortal cities under these circumstances in any significant number, or they'll be instantly annihilated. Their support networks are in the wilds of the world, their enemies are outside of Creation and trying to fight their way in. The only reason a Lunar would go to a city would be to destabilize it. A Lunar in that circumstance is an antagonist.

Forget the damned Fair Folk for a minute here. They aren't seething and infinite; they have been devastated by the Empress's use of the Sword of Creation and grown accustomed to existence alongside Creation. They are individual threats, but they will never threaten Creation with another Balorian Crusade.

With the existential threats out of the way, that clears the way for a revolutionary epic to unseat the Scarlet Empire. That can easily be protagonism, as long as you hate the Realm. NB: Most places that aren't the Realm utterly despise it.

Honestly, this kind of situation is why the (admittedly overused) meme exists.

Because people don't want to deal with the setting's scars?

Sure, the Exalted have limits, but the whole point of Exaltation is that those limits are few, far between and will run into mote pool limitations long before they run into straight up impossibilities (less "I can't lift a mountain" and more "I can't lift this mountain on an empty stomach"). Heck, if 'they defend all corners of creation at once' is too ridiculous to accept (even though it would give the Lunars something worth having ><) have it just be SEVERAL areas of Creation. Or have the fact that they're stretched thin be part of the point of the Lunars' identity!

It wouldn't give them anything worth having to simply just take Adrian's place. It would make them a boring, monolithic organization of units of Neo-Adrian.

Also I don't know that song.

*sees the image* Oh wait, yes I do. I just don't know the lyrics. Beyond 'Row row fight the powah'

Yes, it can become quite obnoxious after eight years or so of having people yell it in your ear.

I've heard people say it was still better than 2e's. I haven't read 1e, but if that's even close to true then White Wolf should hang its head in shame.

They're lying. Things worse than the 1e Lunars ST section exist, but the 2e Lunars ST section is slightly less bad, not worse.

1e's depiction of lunars and the locust crusade easily beat out any in setting candidates for creation's greatest crimes.

The Locust Crusade is the scenario in Time of Tumult that's broken down into a bunch of neat story hooks, with events that the PCs can push off course entirely. The Locust War is the railroady scenario in Exalted: the Autochthonians that indulges in all manner of questionable elements and has numbers that the contributor(s) never bothered to check, most egregious being the blacktog production rates and the supposed Essence 16 Lissome Avid Engineer, bloated on ryku. The two are not the same.

[Guancyto]

While we're vaguely on the subject, the execution of Operation Wyldhand was pretty ham-handed, BUT.

The idea that "destroy the world and remake it in our own images" or "create ever-more-dangerous threats to fight to keep us from getting bored and tearing ourselves apart" are succinct descriptions of political factions in the First Age amuses me a lot.

More relevant! A lot of people seem to be under the impression that "do the impossible" means "yeah I have a charm for that." One of the problems I hope 3e will fix sometime around 2520 when it's finished. I want to see more "yeah, maybe you could do that, if you dedicated a few mortal lifetimes to it, subject to winning over your (famously-impetuous) peers, and maybe it'd work."

Or "yeah, maybe you could do that, if you destroyed the world and remade it in your own image." That could actually solve a lot of seemingly-impossible problems, come to think!

"Because I'm Exalted" is not enough reason to do the impossible. "Because I'm the kind of scary motherfer that even Exalted should fear" is a somewhat better one.

[HalfTangible]

Forget the damned Fair Folk for a minute here.

No.

They aren't seething and infinite; they have been devastated by the Empress's use of the Sword of Creation and grown accustomed to existence alongside Creation. They are individual threats, but they will never threaten Creation with another Balorian Crusade.

What?

They aren't seething and infinite; they have been devastated by the Empress's use of the Sword of Creation

... WHAT?!?!

Earlier you said that defending Creation against the Fair Folk was impossible for the Lunars because their resources would be stretched too thin, NOW you're saying that they're a small, individual threat?!?! Those two things are only compatible if the Lunars are COMPLETELY ineffectual to begin with!

Yeah, I know that the mechanics basically did that but we're talking about the fluff going forward and stuff!

With the existential threats out of the way, that clears the way for a revolutionary epic to unseat the Scarlet Empire. That can easily be protagonism, as long as you hate the Realm. NB: Most places that aren't the Realm utterly despise it.

Revolution stories don't work if your protagonist is not directly involved, which they can't be if involving themselves gets them killed. It also helps if your character has a personal stake in the revolution, which is unlikely to be the case for most cities and towns in Creation since there's only 400 Lunars.

And even if you ignore that, that's one story the Lunars can tell. Then you've got the Abyssal problem: your exalt type only has one story they can tell. MAYBE two.

Because people don't want to deal with the setting's scars?

Unless you're suggesting that having characters that are absurdly awesome is a bad thing, I have no idea what you could possibly be alluding to.

It wouldn't give them anything worth having to simply just take Adrian's place. It would make them a boring, monolithic organization of units of Neo-Adrian.

1) 'Neo-Primordial' is better than 'so pathetically outclassed it's amazing we can still be considered major enough to have our own splatbook, even one with this major of an inferiority complex'

2) SOMEONE needs to fight the fair folk.

Yes, it can become quite obnoxious after eight years or so of having people yell it in your ear.

This is why I hate the Happy Birthday song.

Every single day. Multiple times. Every year. From sixth grade to tenth...

They're lying. Things worse than the 1e Lunars ST section exist, but the 2e Lunars ST section is slightly less bad, not worse.

I haven't read 1e so I'll have to take your word for it.

[golentan]

Saurops, when you're the one who invoked the meme I don't think you're allowed to complain about people using it. Telling people they're having badwrongfun because their understanding of the game and knowledge of its history don't match yours is needlessly grognardy.

[Guancyto]

Honestly I think the problem with "defend the borders of Creation from the Wyld forever" as a goal is not that it's impossible. It's more that effectively implementing it, particularly as a Lunar, probably means the end of your time as a PC.

Because you'd probably turn into something Primordial-ish (neo-Adrian is a fine endgame if that's your goal and either the campaign is done when you've done it or you're making a new PC afterward) and you'd have to stay there.

The quest for that kind of transcendence probably wouldn't be boring, though! The default campaign path for a D&D 4e game is to end with godhood, right?

[Qwertystop]

Yeah. It could work, but it shouldn't be something that takes all the Lunars, or there's no room for Lunar PCs.

Maybe it used to take them all, when the borders and hordes were larger, but now that the Fair Folk are devastated and Creation has shrunk there's enough of a surplus of Lunars that what was a formal position is now just something that some Lunars choose to do? That provides some defense for Creation, gives them a role in lore, and justifies why stepping away from that role if they choose to doesn't doom Creation, so there's source for them to do other things that interest them. And since any organization that had been set up to keep guard-duty Lunars covering the whole border is probably underemphasized now that there's plenty of Lunars relative to the amount of guarding, it leaves an explanation for a metaphorical hole in the fence, if you want the plot to go that way.

[golentan]

Part of it, there is no splat that should do only one thing. And saying that Lunars are a line of defense should not mean that all lunars are involved, or are the only line of defense for creation.

[TheCountAlucard]

No.

What?

... WHAT?!?!

Earlier you said that defending Creation against the Fair Folk was impossible for the Lunars because their resources would be stretched too thin, NOW you're saying that they're a small, individual threat?!?! Those two things are only compatible if the Lunars are COMPLETELY ineffectual to begin with!

Or if you conflate "the Wyld" with "the Fair Folk."

If the Wyld is the ocean from our earlier analogy, the Fair Folk are gonna be those insanely dangerous Australian jellyfish: deadly threats that have washed up on a shore that's just as hostile to them as they are to the shore's inhabitants. Someone can kill them or throw them back into the water, but he's not gonna stop the next wave from sweeping more detritus onto the sands.

2) SOMEONE needs to fight the fair folk.

DO they? Well, regardless of whether it's necessary or not, there are people who do! It's just not "all Lunars, all the time." In fact, the highest number of Fair Folk kills, right after "the Scarlet Empress" probably goes to "mortals with iron."

This is why I hate the Happy Birthday song.

Owned by Time Warner. If it really bothered you that badly, you should have written them a letter, TW would've sent a cease-and-desist. They're notoriously stingy about that particular song - they even tried to take the Girl Scouts to court over it.

[Sith_Happens]

How are you going to run anything at all if the great big huge empire stealing wealth from everyone has the resources to send armies after you or just smite you off the face of Creation with a First Age superweapon?

Um, by being an organization of Celestials that actually has its **** together, a.k.a. the tried and true recipe for being able to give the entire rest of Creation as many middle fingers as your knacks will let you grow?

Seriously, I have no idea where you're getting this idea that the Realm is an insurmountable problem.

Are you going to start chanting lines from Libera Me From Hell now?

Of course not. I'm going to embed the whole gorram song.

[golentan]

Golentan's guide to opposing a realm legion as a lunar:

Step 1: Hire 400 childcare professionals (any exalt who can't swing this isn't even trying).
Step 2: Hearts blood some animal that has a truly ludicrous reproductive rate. A dedicated R strategist. If you can't find one, make one through Genesis Tech.
Step 3: Have 10,000 beastmen children over the course of about a year (1 adult per 25 kids seems to be about the limit for mass child rearing in the real world, hence my numbers).
Step 4: Have the staff make sure at least half of the kids make it to military age and are trained to revere you.
Step 5: Knock at the door of the local Satrap's mansion and cordially invite her to either sign a surrender treaty or bend over so you can shove it someplace uncomfortable.

Training charms and weapons are optional, in part depending on the nature of the beastmen (someone with natural foot long claws and the ability to spit blinding poisons 500 feet has limited need for a shortsword).

As long as you stay off the Isle proper, they can't realistically target you with the realm defense grid even assuming the empress shows up the next day and asks what happened to Greyfalls because it will blowback harder on them then on you. With the commander of the army being the most important mechanically in 2e, and you having had more than a decade and a half tp prepare while putting this plan in motion, as a celestial you should be able to oppose a terrestrial led legion of equivalent magnitude. The realm has only 30 full legions in service. The silver pact could outmatch that ten times over in a generation if they truly cared. It may have been impossible to take the blessed isle because of the defense grid until 5 years ago, but anything short of launching a fleet into the inner sea the lunars would have the advantage of home ground and superior magics. There would be losses to assassination and possibly the occasional superweapon, but lunars reincarnate, dragonblooded don't. Sidereals can't get away with taking blatant action against the silver pact over and over because their bosses will notice eventually and it is a crime (potentially a capital one) for them to kill another celestial, which was the reason for supporting the wyld hunt quietly all these years.

The reason the lunars aren't running the world from the threshold on out has to be because, with the exception of a couple nuts like Ma Ha Suchi, they collectively lack the political will to do so because they've got better things to do than quarrel with her Redness's government. The entire strategy of the Wyld Hunt is dependent on lunar elders being willing to trade a few new bloods to the Realm in exchange for being able to pursue pet projects they care about more than their desire for revenge against the establishment. If fifty lunars decided the realm must die tomorrow, they could cut if off from all of its satrapies in at most a couple of bloody decades. Even the argument that the populace would rise against the Anathema is invalid: the immaculate order makes it clear that opposing the anathema is suicide for a mortal and is the role of the Exalted, and your job as Joe the Peasant is to run to the local monastery as fast as your feet will carry you and tell THEM that someone's glowing silver. Besides which, give it a decade and most of the people won't care anymore who's collecting taxes vs. who was doing it a generation ago.

[TheCountAlucard]

Any Lunars argument that hinges on one Lunar being able to churn out 25,000 children in a year is a terrible Lunars argument.

[HalfTangible]

Or if you conflate "the Wyld" with "the Fair Folk."

If the Wyld is the ocean from our earlier analogy, the Fair Folk are gonna be those insanely dangerous Australian jellyfish: deadly threats that have washed up on a shore that's just as hostile to them as they are to the shore's inhabitants. Someone can kill them or throw them back into the water, but he's not gonna stop the next wave from sweeping more detritus onto the sands.

Who said anything about the wave? Kill the jellyfish and I'll be happy!

It's just not "all Lunars, all the time."

It should be in their own splatbook.

DO they? Well, regardless of whether it's necessary or not, there are people who do!....... In fact, the highest number of Fair Folk kills, right after "the Scarlet Empress" probably goes to "mortals with iron."

If they aren't a threat then why are they treated as such?

Owned by Time Warner. If it really bothered you that badly, you should have written them a letter, TW would've sent a cease-and-desist. They're notoriously stingy about that particular song - they even tried to take the Girl Scouts to court over it.

Oh sure. Have a thirteen year old sue a bunch of other thirteen year olds for stating the name of a song at him.

[TheCountAlucard]

Who said anything about the wave?

You did. Also I did. Also the other guy you were arguing with. Also there was conflating wave with jellyfish as I'd mentioned earlier.

Kill the jellyfish and I'll be happy!

Will you? I have my doubts.

Also remember that there's only 3-400 of you, depending on edition, and a hundred million jellyfish, and that you guys are self-interested people who might not all be obsessed with stabbing jellyfish with your knife. Those of you who are do inclined can stab them all day, every day, and even assuming that none of you once take a break or quit to go do something else, even assuming that no one ever messes up and dies from jellyfish venom, even assuming that among the driftwood, beached whales, and whatever else is carried in on the tide, nary a single jellyfish ever washes ashore again,[/i], you will not have made an appreciable dent in those numbers.

If they aren't a threat then why are they treated as such?

I'm relatively sure that "humans killing tigers" is up there on the list of why tigers are so critically endangered - you still want me to stick you in a cage with one?

Fair Folk are dangerous but not completely insurmountable. Incidentally the same can be said of elementals, escaped first circle demons, small gods, lions and tigers and bears (oh, my!), river dragons, and even tyrant lizards.

Oh sure. Have a thirteen year old sue a bunch of other thirteen year olds for stating the name of a song at him.

Of course not! You're just a concerned citizen, alerting the big huge corporation to a group of individuals illegally sharing copyrighted material! They'll do all the suing!

[HalfTangible]

You did. Also I did. Also the other guy you were arguing with. Also there was conflating wave with jellyfish as I'd mentioned earlier.

Then I misspoke.

Will you? I have my doubts.

You're really friggen snarky, ya know that?

I'm relatively sure that "humans killing tigers" is up there on the list of why tigers are so critically endangered - you still want me to stick you in a cage with one?

I'm not going to willingly lock myself in with a tiger but I'm not gonna drop a nuke on one and pretend it's completely justified either. Why are they considered Exalted-level threats when they're on par with tigers and coral snakes?

Of course not! You're just a concerned citizen, alerting the big huge corporation to a group of individuals illegally sharing copyrighted material! They'll do all the suing!

No big company is going to sue a completely unidentified group of thirteen year olds who don't even sing the f$#@ing song on the word of another thirteen year old that they're 'hellhouse-raised dickbags'. If they were willing to do that, they'd sue TV shows that say 'happy birthday' first. They might actually get some money out of it.

[TheCountAlucard]

No big company is going to sue a completely unidentified group of thirteen year olds who don't even sing the f$#@ing song on the word of another thirteen year old that they're 'hellhouse-raised dickbags'. If they were willing to do that, they'd sue TV shows that say 'happy birthday' first. They might actually get some money out of it.

I'm talking about the song, which is what you said you hated. And go on, take a look at TV shows. How many can you name that actually sing the song as-is? Of course they sue TV shows that sing the song.

Also, they're not unidentified: you're identifying them.

[Recaiden]

Also remember that there's only 3-400 of you, depending on edition, and a hundred million jellyfish, and that you guys are self-interested people who might not all be obsessed with stabbing jellyfish with your knife. Those of you who are do inclined can stab them all day, every day, and even assuming that none of you once take a break or quit to go do something else, even assuming that no one ever messes up and dies from jellyfish venom, even assuming that among the driftwood, beached whales, and whatever else is carried in on the tide, nary a single jellyfish ever washes ashore again,[/i], you will not have made an appreciable dent in those numbers.

This is not the case in 2nd edition. It was in 1st, I gather, but there's no reason it needs to be so. There are not a hundred million raksha.
There might not even be one million.

I'm not going to willingly lock myself in with a tiger but I'm not gonna drop a nuke on one and pretend it's completely justified either. Why are they considered Exalted-level threats when they're on par with tigers and coral snakes?

It's true they aren't completely insurmountable but they are very dangerous. Far more than any mortal animal. Not least because a fae can just fave their hand and bam, tyrant lizard.

[TheCountAlucard]

This is not the case in 2nd edition. It was in 1st, I gather, but there's no reason it needs to be so. There are not a hundred million raksha.
There might not even be one million.

Feel free to check the Ink Monkeys article re:Raksha numbers. I'll wait.