MitD VIII: Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid Tarrasque)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

But would RC, knowing what a thorough overthinker/planifier he is, completely disregard such capabilities being there?

Because he is told by Xykon that the wizard escaped. Since this is the same wizard that teleported in, there is not reason to think he could not teleport back out. Xykon story fits the facts, and RC has no reason to think otherwise.

Having around a caged monster that can randomly teleport people ... or maybe cast Wish, is a large risk.

No, it is not. Not when he is MitD, and has always been loyal to the team and also completely incompetent.

Not to mention ignoring such abilities is a waste of resources unseemingly of someone as efficient as RC. It's even more of a waste when we consider MITD has a huge innate spellcraft (or some other way to be able to recognize the ritual by a mere glance, while Tsukiko couldn't even with study).

They are not ignoring anything. RC and MitD both are obeying Xykon. Xykon wants MitD to be the ace in the hole, and that is exactly what he is. This is not any more wasting resources than having a fourth of your army pull back from battle to serve as reserves.

So either for some reason they're completely careless about the above or... maybe RC (and Xykon) think they know what it is, but they actually they don't exactly know.

Quite correct, which is why that was already in the segment you quoted from my first post. Yes, there is no reason to believe Xykon knows or cares to know more about MitD that "big, strong, ugly". What RC knows about MitD is irrelevant as long as he is second fiddle to Xykon.

And in a way, what I am saying is already being applied in the matter of speech. Right now people is looking for a monster that normally can't speak, but satisfies ALL the other features. I believe some other of his powers should be categorized similarly as speech, i.e., probably not part of the core characteristics. It's obvious that appearance, strenght, DR, etc. are those of a certain creature, but Teleport/Wish, ot High spellcraft, I believe should be considered "suspect" of being unique characteristics of this particular individual.

"People is[sic] looking" based on whatever parameters they want, and indeed a quick look at the proposal lists shows that your assertion is false: plenty of creatures that can speak have been proposed. Furthermore, this thread most emphatically does not treat speech any different from everything else. We allow a lot of flexibility in appearance, strenght, defences, etc, so I fail to see what you think you are suggesting.

Now, you want to think that MitD's creature type can't cast spells? Go for it. But to people that disagree with your reasoning, such creatures will be clearly inferior. Since this thread is attempting classification of fitness, a creature that fits everything, including spells, will always rank higher than one that does not, even if you want to think that the escape scene can be ignored.

Grey Wolf

[b_jonas]

Your analysis does not follow. Primarily because you based it on the fact that Belkar could not recognise the tracks. Since you did not include in your analysis that, at the time, MitD was dragging a table an a bunch of stuffed toys (and possibly a stunned paladin), the logic about tracks falls apart.

Oh, this sounds important, and I didn't think of it. Is it mentioned somewhere in the first posts? Though ultimately, maybe Belkar finding the tracks strange doesn't mean anything because he's such a lousy tracker.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Oh, this sounds important, and I didn't think of it. Is it mentioned somewhere in the first posts? Though ultimately, maybe Belkar finding the tracks strange doesn't mean anything because he's such a lousy tracker.

The second part is in the OP (under limbs), but I'm not sure if the table bit is anywhere (mostly because, as you rightly say, the second argument is much stronger). That said, maybe I should add a "tracks" to the physical characteristics section, and have it be slightly redundant with limbs. I don't like repeating myself, but on the other hand, it would make it easier to find the information. Maybe add a cross-reference.

Grey Wolf

[b_jonas]

Ok wait. I realized the important part here is not really whether the tracks are recognizable. The important part is whether there are tracks at all. Is it possible that the MitD doesn't normally leave tracks, for example because he is levitating (hovering) or flying most of the time, and that time when Belkar saw his tracks was an exception where he's left tracks only because he was dragging something heavy? Is there any other time we see the MitD leaves tracks?

[rweird]

Ok wait. I realized the important part here is not really whether the tracks are recognizable. The important part is whether there are tracks at all. Is it possible that the MitD doesn't normally leave tracks, for example because he is levitating (hovering) or flying most of the time, and that time when Belkar saw his tracks was an exception where he's left tracks only because he was dragging something heavy? Is there any other time we see the MitD leaves tracks?

I don't believe so, but I don't think we know that it doesn't either.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Ok wait. I realized the important part here is not really whether the tracks are recognizable. The important part is whether there are tracks at all. Is it possible that the MitD doesn't normally leave tracks, for example because he is levitating (hovering) or flying most of the time, and that time when Belkar saw his tracks was an exception where he's left tracks only because he was dragging something heavy? Is there any other time we see the MitD leaves tracks?

No, that is the only time his tracks have come up. And indeed, people who have defended him being buoyant (which would explain why RC was able to move the cage) have long used the idea that Belkar was not recognising the tracks left by a table.

Grey Wolf

[b_jonas]

No, that is the only time his tracks have come up. And indeed, people who have defended him being buoyant (which would explain why RC was able to move the cage) have long used the idea that Belkar was not recognising the tracks left by a table.

That's funny. I imagine Belkar had taken part of many pub brawls before that scene, so he should recognize table tracks.

[Steven]

I now have images of Belkar chasing an animated table across the savanna. No idea why the savanna but there you go...


Also, GW: Is the link in your sig intentionally pointing to the previous thread or is that just an oversight?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Also, GW: Is the link in your sig intentionally pointing to the previous thread or is that just an oversight?

Oversight. Fixed.

Thanks!

GW

[Bitzer]

After reading through the first few posts on the thread, I noticed that many theories use psionics to explain certain scenes such as V's escape; but Redcloak is unsure whether the world has psionics in 546. Given that Redcloak knows what the MitD is in Start of Darkness, he would have already known about psionics if the MitD has psionic powers. Would this not eliminate the possibility of MitD being psionic?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

After reading through the first few posts on the thread, I noticed that many theories use psionics to explain certain scenes such as V's escape; but Redcloak is unsure whether the world has psionics in 546. Given that Redcloak knows what the MitD is in Start of Darkness, he would have already known about psionics if the MitD has psionic powers. Would this not eliminate the possibility of MitD being psionic?

This possibility is addressed in 2b:Abilities - Psionics in the OP, in the bullet point that starts "RedCloak, who knows what MitD is, had to research if psionics existed in OotS-verse."

Do let me know if it is not clear, though, and I can give you a more expanded explanation.

Yours,

Grey Wolf

[rodneyAnonymous]

Given that Redcloak knows what the MitD is in Start of Darkness, he would have already known about psionics if the MitD has psionic powers. Would this not eliminate the possibility of MitD being psionic?

No. Many monsters, for example Illithid, just use magic if the world doesn't use psionics.

[littlebum2002]

I now have images of Belkar chasing an animated table across the savanna. No idea why the savanna but there you go...

The Talenta Plains!

No. Many monsters, for example Illithid, just use magic if the world doesn't use psionics.

But.....this world DOES use psionics. So I'm not clear as to what you're getting at here.

If the MitD is psionic, and this world has psionics, then it would use psionics, and Redcloak would know they were being used.

If the MitD is psionic, and the world doesn't have psionics, then it would use magic, and Redcloak wouldn't know if the world was using psionics, but the Blue who read O-Chul's mind wouldn't exist.

[Peelee]

But.....this world DOES use psionics. So I'm not clear as to what you're getting at here.

If the MitD is psionic, and this world has psionics, then it would use psionics, and Redcloak would know they were being used.

If the MitD is psionic, and the world doesn't have psionics, then it would use magic, and Redcloak wouldn't know if the world was using psionics, but the Blue who read O-Chul's mind wouldn't exist.

OK, it works like this: Assume MitD has psionic abilities. Now, since psionic monsters just use magic if the world doesn't use psionics, the MitD's existence does not confirm that psionics are being used. This explains how the MitD could have psionic abilities while Redcloak would still be uncertain whether or not psionics is in play, despite knowing what the MitD is.

That the world does use psionics is irrelevant. The argument is, "MitD cannot be psionic, since Redcloak knows what he is, and did not know if psionics were being used." Rodney demonstrated the flaw in that argument.

[Bitzer]

Thank you all for your responses. I see my argument on psionics is flawed.

[littlebum2002]

I mean, I'm sure you're making sense, but I'm just not getting it.

OK, it works like this: Assume MitD has psionic abilities. Now, since psionic monsters just use magic if the world doesn't use psionics,

But it's not using magic, it's using psionics. You just said so.

If the MitD was "a psionic monster using magic" then you know the world doesn't use psionics.

If he's "a psionic monster using psionics" then you know the world does use psionics.

[Qwertystop]

I mean, I'm sure you're making sense, but I'm just not getting it.



But it's not using magic, it's using psionics. You just said so.

If the MitD was "a psionic monster using magic" then you know the world doesn't use psionics.

If he's "a psionic monster using psionics" then you know the world does use psionics.

The thing is, when has MitD ever used any of his abilities in Redcloak's presence? Whether he's psionic-using-magic or psionic-using-psionics, in practice (assuming he is a potentially psionic creature) he's psionic-using-nothing, which probably looks pretty much the same either way.

[AgentPaper]

I mean, I'm sure you're making sense, but I'm just not getting it.



But it's not using magic, it's using psionics. You just said so.

If the MitD was "a psionic monster using magic" then you know the world doesn't use psionics.

If he's "a psionic monster using psionics" then you know the world does use psionics.

Assuming that MitD is a monster that normally uses psionics, then that means that Redcloak knows that MitD is a monster that normally uses psionics. Redcloas does not know, however, whether MitD is actually using psionics, or if MitD is using normal magic as a stand-in because the world isn't using psionics.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

If the MitD is psionic, and this world has psionics, then it would use psionics, and Redcloak would know they were being used.

If the world allows psionics, and RC tried to determine this by testing if MitD used magic or psionics, and MitD managed to do neither because he is MitD, then RC would not be able to tell, leading him to take a long time to find a better psionic/magic test (and be suitably annoyed about it).

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

I mean, I'm sure you're making sense, but I'm just not getting it.



But it's not using magic, it's using psionics. You just said so.

If the MitD was "a psionic monster using magic" then you know the world doesn't use psionics.

If he's "a psionic monster using psionics" then you know the world does use psionics.

OK, let me try again.

Assume the MitD has psionic abilities. Now assume the strip with the blue goblin never existed, and we do not know if psionics are being used in this world or not. That is the lynchpin. Redcloak discovered the MitD before he knew psionics worked in the world. If not for the "psionics can work like magic" bit, MitD's existence alone would have shown Redcloak whether or not psionics worked. Get it?

Actually, hold on. Let me try something else.

If the MitD was "a psionic monster using magic" then you know the world doesn't use psionics.

If he's "a psionic monster using psionics" then you know the world does use psionics.

Assume you can't tell the difference.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Redcloak can't tell whether the MitD uses magic or psionics because he hasn't seen it use either.

Knowing what the MitD is doesn't say anything about whether the world has psionics in it. For example, let's say the MitD is an Illithid; Redcloak sees it, and knows what it is, but can't tell whether it uses magic or psionics until it uses one of them. The existence of an Illithid, which is "normally" psionic, doesn't tell him whether or not this campaign uses psionics... if the answer is "no", they use magic instead. He can't tell by looking at it.

This thread really needs an MitD appearance. It's been a year and a half.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

This thread really needs an MitD appearance. It's been a year and a half.

I'm really hoping that switch over to Team Evil pretty soon.

On the topic of psionics; I am with Peelee and Rodney here. In campaigns without psionics, monsters that are normally psionic still appear, only they are magic instead. Thus, if Redcloak has never seen MitD use his abilities, he cannot know if he is the psionic or magic version, and therefore doesn't know if the campaign has psionics.

[Kornaki]

Even if MitD used his abilities, it's not clear that Redcloak would be able to tell if it was magic or psionic. With psionics as rare as they apparently are, any DM worth his salt would be using the magic-psionic transparency rule.

[littlebum2002]

Assume you can't tell the difference.

Oooooh ok I get it.

[friartucksduck]

A minor and probably inconsequential point, but Boggart could fit in Section 3d: Proposed ideas better than in Section 3c: Copyrighted Ideas. Boggart is one of several traditional English names for the bogeyman or bogle. While Rowling's version of the bogeyman is somewhat unique, so is every other version.

That said, some variation of the bogeyman might work. They're so loosely defined by so many people and cultures that probably every quality attributed to the MitD could be made to fit, but I'm afraid that rather makes this a bingosaurus.

Pros:
A bogeyman afraid of the dark follows Rule of Funny.
Likewise, literal distaste for children.
Natural habitat isn't the jungle.
Extreme strength, shapeshifting, stealing people away without a trace, and remarkable resilience are common traits of bogeymen worldwide.
"STOP" can be explained as paralyzing the PCs with primal fear.
Disgusting appearance guaranteed.

Cons:
An epic CR seems like a stretch.
Teleporting others without accompanying them doesn't gel with any specific version of the bogeyman I know of.
Bingosaurus.

[Irish Musician]

Even if MitD used his abilities, it's not clear that Redcloak would be able to tell if it was magic or psionic. With psionics as rare as they apparently are, any DM worth his salt would be using the magic-psionic transparency rule.

True, but as we have seen before, Rich doesn't always go the logical route in reference to the rules or what a normal DM would do.

Not disagreeing with you, just playing devil's advocate a little.

And I agree Rodney...I am missing our little monster in the comics.

[House_of_Dexter]

I'm going to use an argument that MITD is a Juvenile version of Godzilla.
Minilla aka Minya aka Baby Godzilla aka Godzilla Jr. aka Godzooky.

1) Has a plausible explanation for the Escape
Minilla in All Monsters Attack has an adventure with a Japanese child named Ichiro. Ichiro is able to visit Minilla in his dreams. Ichiro ask Minilla how to get to MonsterIsland in his dream through a radio. Minilla tells him to take a airline ticket to Monster Island. This is all done in a dream sequence. Ichiro is able to travel from Tokyo to Monster Island and vice versa after the initial ride with ease. It looks like Minilla has the ability to help others travel through the Astral plane but does not have the ability to travel through it himself.

2) Has a plausible explanation for the Tower (both his attack and his defence)
Minilla is pretty weak in comparison to Dad(Godzilla), but in comparison to others, he would be very, very strong and next to impenetrable.. He's able to hold his own against Gabara, who weighs about 23k tons and has a height of 58m. He's able to knock him to the ground and doesn't take much damage when Gabara smacks him around.

3) Has a plausible explanation for the Circus (both his act, and the reactions)
Depending on what stage of growth he's at the circus. He can look like a mini Godzilla or a pudgy version of his dad.

4) Isn't one of the impossible categories (unless it is an exception)
He is probably copyrighted. But is that an issue if you don't use his name and MITD is re-drawn like whats been done for the hello kitty umbrella.

5) Existed before strip #100 in a form accessible to Rich.
Yup...1967 Son of Godzilla/1969 All Monsters Attack(Godzilla's Revenge)

6) Size no bigger than Huge ("fits in the box")
Has the ability to change his size from Small Child(1.6M) to 18M in All Monsters Attack. As Godzilla Junior in Godzilla vs. MechaGodzilla 2 he was 1.64M.

7) Is vulnerable to mind-affecting effects (SoD)
Don't see why not. Godzilla was mind controlled in Invasion of Astro-Monster
http://godzilla.wikia.com/wiki/Invas..._Astro-Monster

Other things that support Minilla
a)Why would Xykon expect MITD to eat children? In Go! Greenman series...Minilla is sent to get children's blood for Maoh(http://godzilla.wikia.com/wiki/Maoh). Maoh is the source of all evil(could be the SNARL) as Maoh has been banished to the Underworld. Maoh needs the blood of children to be released from his prison.
b)Has the ability to talk while a juvenile, but Adult versions do not have this ability. This would explain why the big game hunters where surprised it could talk.
c)It looks like Minilla knows about travelling through the Astral plane, but hasn't been there himself.
d)Minilla doesn't really know what he can and can't do until somebody shows him how to, or under extreme circumstances (like a boulder dropped on his tail)
e)Minilla a coward and won't stand up to bullies unless his dad makes him.
f)Minilla is very juvenile and acts like a child.
g)You would expect to find Minilla on MonsterIsland with other gargantuan monsters and not roaming the jungle.
h)Has 2 brains...which might make him very intelligent.

Things that don't support Minilla
a)He looks to have immense strength but enough to cause an earthquake? If he was in his 18M size I would say yes...but as a 1.6M version? Not so sure of that.
b)He has the ability to shot Atomic Smoke Rings or under rare circumstances shot Atomic Ray. MITD has never used this ability or anything similar.
c)Has the ability to communicate with his dad over long distances. Where's his dad?
d)Would he have any knowledge of magic like Divinity? I doubt it.
e)Would he have the ability "STOP"? I doubt it.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I'm going to use an argument that MITD is a Juvenile version of Godzilla.\

Godzilla is copyrighted, and as such is already listed in section 3c. I'll let our local Godzilla expert, Surfing HalfOrc, address the arguments if he/she so desires.

Yours,

Grey Wolf

[b_jonas]

I'm going to use an argument that MITD is a Juvenile version of Godzilla.

Those are nice detailed arguments referencing sources. Thanks for telling us. (I know almost nothing about Godzilla.)

[Kornaki]

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2...7d/Minilla.jpg

Oh my god, he's adorable.