[Dreamscarred Press] Path of War: Expanded! (Discussion Thread V)

[Xerlith]

(swift action striking from range starting at level 1!)

Care to elaborate? I seem to have missed it.

[Vhaidara]

It's a stalker art that was meant to be swift action to give your next maneuver Close Range, but ended up being that you initiate the maneuver at Close Range as a swift.

[Elricaltovilla]

Got to ask the difficult questions.

Are the flames generated by Phoenix Champions silver?

Anyway, the 1st level looks a bit empty. Also, does Burning Bow work with boosts? It says "Uses", but not "applies".

If not, then the Rapid Shot requirement seems a bit out of place, since there are no Solar Wind maneuvers that use a full attack, and Tempest gale has only the 9th level one...

Silver Crane also only one.

Y'know, there's a FAQ thread that Keledrath was nice enough to put up. These seem like perfect additions to add to that thread. I'll assume that the question about the phoenix champion's flames is a joke, unless it's not in which case you'll have to explain what you're trying to ask me.

[ErrantX]

... ugh. You actually asked me to do it. I'll see what my logs have, I'll try to get stuff to you by the end of the week. Suffice to say there is a lot of sloppy editing in PoW 1 (for example, warder uses "himself" throughout when it should be "herself" to match with the "she/her" language, at least in the version that made it onto PFSRD) and hilarious broken stuff (swift action striking from range starting at level 1!)

You're a saint.

I know - there was some dumb edits in there. It will be fixed in Ultimate, I swear.

-X

[Xerlith]

It's a stalker art that was meant to be swift action to give your next maneuver Close Range, but ended up being that you initiate the maneuver at Close Range as a swift.

Ah. I forgot about it. Thanks.

Y'know, there's a FAQ thread that Keledrath was nice enough to put up. These seem like perfect additions to add to that thread. I'll assume that the question about the phoenix champion's flames is a joke, unless it's not in which case you'll have to explain what you're trying to ask me.

First, it is not a FAQ, but design question. Ties specifically with the fact that Rapid Shot doesn't work with any Strike maneuver from the available disciplines, and the fact that Rapid Shot is one of the requirements.

Since it is a maneuver that "uses" an attack roll, I assumed that means 'has an attack roll as a part of itself', based on how it works with most things with the wording, so boosts do not apply.

That makes the 1st level ability not applicable to Rapid Shot. I wanted to know if that was intentional, in which case Rapid Shot is a feat tax, or simply an overlook.

And for the second part, yea, that was a hermetic anti-joke.

[NineThePuma]

I am not a saint. I am most definitely a sinner.

Also, I'm going to put off dealing with Stalker in favor of Class Templates. Those feel more priority.

Speaking of which, how long does the Bushi's Loyalty bushido ability last?

EDIT: Also also: It feels really really weird to me that the Bushi Warder is incompatible with Sworn Protector. That seems like it'd be right up the Bushi's alley...

[stack]

Rapid shot does seem a bit out of place, though most every archer will grab it anyway for when making full attacks instead of strikes. PBS is a stealth prerequisite as well, since it is required for precise shot and rapid shot, though frankly every archer is taking them anyhow. An initiator can get by without rapid shot by focusing on strikes, though in the early levels you would miss it since you run out of strikes quickly.

So, rambling aside, rapid shot is a touch out of place but not really problematic. I would probably remove it, make life easier for the throwing builds that need even more feats than archers.

[Elricaltovilla]

First, it is not a FAQ, but design question. Ties specifically with the fact that Rapid Shot doesn't work with any Strike maneuver from the available disciplines, and the fact that Rapid Shot is one of the requirements.

Since it is a maneuver that "uses" an attack roll, I assumed that means 'has an attack roll as a part of itself', based on how it works with most things with the wording, so boosts do not apply.

That makes the 1st level ability not applicable to Rapid Shot. I wanted to know if that was intentional, in which case Rapid Shot is a feat tax, or simply an overlook.

No, it's definitely a FAQ question. It's a question about wording and RAW vs. RAI.

[master4sword]

Yeah, I meant to put a cap on that when I increased the animus cap but I was at work at the time and must have taken a phone call and forgot. I put it in now to cap that ability at 3 animus so it doesn't get completely ridiculous, and added it as an insight bonus instead of as an untyped bonus.

Animus is supposed to have a cap? I see the cap on how much you can spend augmenting maneuvers - is that what you're referring to?

[ErrantX]

Animus is supposed to have a cap? I see the cap on how much you can spend augmenting maneuvers - is that what you're referring to?

Yes, capping out how much you can spend and how much you can spend on a single augment.

-X

[Xerlith]

That 1st Phoenix Champion level feels a little plain to me, a small bump in the most resistable damage, while flavorful, seems limited.

At the very least, how about making it work with Rapid Shot in addition to maneuvers?

[Deadkitten]

Golden Lion Style [Combat, Style]
You are adept at taking advantage of your allies missed opportunities
Prerequisites: 1 or more Golden Lion stances, Diplomacy 3 ranks
Benefit: Whenever an ally who is flanking the same enemy as you misses an attack against that opponent, you can make an attack of opportunity against that opponent.
Special: This feat may be selected if a character is granted a bonus teamwork feat.

So Golden Lion style seems confusing to me with how it is worded.

1: How do they interact with with classes such as the Cavalier?
2:Can you select it as part of the Cavaliers tactician ability and then grant the style feat to allies?
3 Maybe the special section of the feats could use some cleaning up?
This section seems to read that if you are granted a teamwork feat from any source, you can replace it with the style feat.You could have a situation in which a theoretical Cavalier grants outflank to allies through his tactician ability, and since they were granted a teamwork feat they can then replace it with Golden Lion style.
4: Should this feat have an action cost or is "expend a readied counter" and action? It just seems like it just costs resources as written and not actions.
From Golden Lion Charge:

Whenever an opponent within 30 feet attacks an ally and misses, you can expend a readied counter to move up to your speed, provided that movement ends with you adjacent to the opponent that missed your ally, and make a single attack of opportunity against them.

5: Any Chance that you might be able to just add the Teamwork Descriptor to the feats as well as the Style descriptor? It seems like it would be more elegant.

[Lord_Gareth]

Is there a section in PoW:E where the characters from this story get statted out? it's a cool story, but i can't always figure out who is what class, or wich manouvers they are using.
I mean, what is up with those wings?

Sadly no. For various (pretty good) reasons, DSP doesn't stat its iconics explicitly. However, I will note that Kestrel - the Ragged Angel - is a straight Harbinger; her wings are from her Grim News progression.

[ATalsen]

Any time now - we've given the sign off on the base class and Nova's just putting some small adjustments into the archetypes to fix those.

Can I ask that Nova (or someone) look at the Void Prophet (Zealot Archetype) recovery method?

Right now, it loses the ability to recover on Aid, and gains the ability to recover "1 expended maneuver whenever she adds an unwilling creature to her collective" and "recovers expended maneuvers equal to her Charisma modifier whenever a member of her collective is reduced to 0 or fewer hit points.”

HOWEVER, Void Prophet still suffers from: "If a member of the collective dies, the member is removed from the collective and the zealot must make a Fortitude save (DC 15) or lose 1 power point for every Hit Die of the fallen member or be sickened for an equal number of rounds.".

So a Void Prophet's 'full' recovery method forces them to make a save or suck.


I'm hoping this is an oversight and not intensional?

[Elricaltovilla]

That's one of those things we're working on fixing.

[ATalsen]

Any Chance that you might be able to just add the Teamwork Descriptor to the feats as well as the Style descriptor? It seems like it would be more elegant.

The only issue with that is that Teamwork feats have their own 'baggage' (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/teamwork-feats) attached, which this feat doesn't.

However, a possible reword of the Special section based on your suggestion might be:

Special: This feat may be selected as if it possessed the [Teamwork] feat type.

or

Special: This feat may be selected as if it were a [Teamwork] feat.





Void Prophet:

That's one of those things we're working on fixing.

Awesome!

[wooper]

I am not a saint. I am most definitely a sinner.

Also, I'm going to put off dealing with Stalker in favor of Class Templates. Those feel more priority.

Speaking of which, how long does the Bushi's Loyalty bushido ability last?

EDIT: Also also: It feels really really weird to me that the Bushi Warder is incompatible with Sworn Protector. That seems like it'd be right up the Bushi's alley...

I was under the impression that the Loyalty bushido ability lasts as long as a Status spell, so 1 hour per initiator level. Probably worth clarifying though.
Second on the Sworn Protector.

[NineThePuma]

-Loyalty: The bushi’s strong sense of loyalty to friends and allies allows him to instinctively know when they are in danger. You may mark a friend or ally as a standard action a number of times per day equal to your initiating modifier (minimum 1). This mark allows you to know the relative position and general health condition of the creatures marked as if they were under the effects of a status spell (caster level equal to your initiator level). In addition, you are able to monitor their health level, as per the spell deathwatch.

The wording of this ability, once you remove the fluff, is "You can mark someone with a standard action X times per day. While they are marked, you know where they are and what their condition is as though you had cast status on them. Also, their health level is shown as per deathwatch." The mark is /not/ the Status spell. The mark merely provides you the ability to detect someone as though you had cast status on them. There is no listed duration so it defaults to "forever" which is absurd, yes.

[wooper]

Also, I think it's a bit... weird that if the Stalker wants to take Bushido abilities, they have to replace their stalker arts with them, unlike any of the other classes - and even if they replace all of their arts, they still get them slower. I already see the Bushido abilities as more of a nice flavourful bonus than super powerful abilities, and a Stalker will probably be better off taking a Stalker Art instead of one most of the time. What's wrong with giving them to the Stalker just like that, or maybe using something different like a smaller ki pool?

[Elricaltovilla]

Also, I think it's a bit... weird that if the Stalker wants to take Bushido abilities, they have to replace their stalker arts with them, unlike any of the other classes - and even if they replace all of their arts, they still get them slower. I already see the Bushido abilities as more of a nice flavourful bonus than super powerful abilities, and a Stalker will probably be better off taking a Stalker Art instead of one most of the time. What's wrong with giving them to the Stalker just like that, or maybe using something different like a smaller ki pool?

Counterpoint: Stalker Bushi are the only bushi that don't have to take the bushidos if they don't want to.

[Extra Anchovies]

Also, I think it's a bit... weird that if the Stalker wants to take Bushido abilities, they have to replace their stalker arts with them, unlike any of the other classes - and even if they replace all of their arts, they still get them slower. I already see the Bushido abilities as more of a nice flavourful bonus than super powerful abilities, and a Stalker will probably be better off taking a Stalker Art instead of one most of the time. What's wrong with giving them to the Stalker just like that, or maybe using something different like a smaller ki pool?

The explanation that has been given is that Warder and Warlord give up more stuff than the Stalker does.

[NineThePuma]

The explanation that has been given is that Warder and Warlord give up more stuff than the Stalker does.

Stalker Gives Up: Blending, Improved Blending, 1st Stalker Art. Gets to pick and choose whether or not to grab Bushidos.
Warder Gives Up: First two bonus feats(!!!), Heavy Armor Proficiency, Clad In Steel, Steel Defense, and Born in Steel.
Warlord Gives Up: First two bonus Feats(!!!), Warlord's Presence, Dual Presence, Warlord's Tactical Presence.

Bushi Gives: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Katana & Wakizashi), Quick Draw, Mixed Combat, Bushido (7 abilities).

I'm going to be generous and say that the bushidos, delayed over 7 levels, miiiiight be worth the two bonus feats. maybe. I'd also say that an option to exchange up to two bonus feats for bushidos (3 bushidos for the first, the remaining 4 for the second) would be far more accommodating. Killing the early game bonus feats really hurts the Warder and Warlord.

Counterpoint: Stalker Bushi are the only bushi that don't have to take the bushidos if they don't want to.

Countercounterpoint: Bushido are, pretty much universally, worse than a stalker art. Only Benevolence even competes.

If Bushido were /competitive/ with them, I'd buy it, but they're not.

[Kaidinah]

Well then take this just in time:
Mystic recovery: This is good. Getting to select 2 maneuvers to be granted at the start of combat is great, and I like that the number scales up.

Anima: I see no problems here. You basically generate 2 per turn, and if you want to nova, it can go away quickly. Using animus to qualify for caster feats is great too! I really love that.

Anima Burn seems very strong for costing 2 animus too. Especially since it adds massive static damage, which is dealt in full to anyone hit by the attack's splash. I definitely like the idea though, since it can bring a lot of fun and utility to the random ranged blasts in Elemental Flux, Black Seraph, and Riven Hourglass. I think reducing the damage is the way to go with this one.

An example of easy abuse with Anima Burn would be using it with a Gunsmoke Mystic using Tempest Gale. They could initiate a Tempest Gale maneuver at 5th level, and via Anima Burn, their splash damage would be: Their wisdom modifier, half their level, half their level again, their full deadly aim bonus damage, and the minimum dice roll for damage with the actual maneuver (+boost?). For spending only 2 animus, this is very strong.

Elemental Attunement is snazzy. I like that for a price, you can make a strike deal energy damage. This has amazing synergy with Elements as One.

No problems with Blade Meditation, Bonus Feats, Arcane Defense and not much to say besides: They are good.

And now Elemental Glyph. The meat of the class right here (besides maneuvers). The ability calls out Wisdom modifier and Initiation modifier. I think the wording should be changed to be all one or all the other, for consistency. Elemental Glyphs are very, very strong. To the point where I consider the Mystic to be the best buffer in all of Path of War so far, and has the most utility of all PoW classes. Not saying that this is a bad thing, just pointing it out.

Mystic Artifice is fine. No comments on it.

Withstand spell is a strong defensive ability. Reinforces that the mystic is basically a glass cannon against anything except spells.

Instant Enlightenment needs the word "one" added to this sentence: "Once per day as a free action, the mystic may expend granted maneuver and instantly replace it with another maneuver she knows"

Quell Magic is cool and costly. All clear here.

Font of Animus allows you to power the animus augments of the class at higher levels.

Glyph Mastery is a very strong capstone. Glyphs were already one of the strongest buffs available in PoW, and granting 2 of them is very fearsome. I am unsure if this is balanced.

Archetypes:
Aurora Soul's 12th level Mystic Combat ability to add their full initiation modifier to attack rolls should probably be cut down. Harbingers don't even get their full initiation modifier to attack rolls.

Gunsmoke Mystic: When did Animus-Charged Bullets become half your level instead of being Wisdom modifier? I think it should be changed back. Other than this, no problems. The archetype makes significant trades to get this power.

Knight Chandler: Overall, it is a slight nerf compared to base mystic because its Candle Magic is capable of generating less effects than glyphs, but some of its Candle Magic abilities surpass the strength of Glyphs, so I think this works out.

Overall conclusion: Mystic is good, and makes a good addition to the PoW cast. I think it managed to overthrow the Warlord as the king of party benefit. Also, between the Harbinger and the Mystic, I can't help but feel that the Stalker needs a little love. As a base class, I can see no reason to use Stalkers over Mystics. Especially with Aurora Soul.
Edit: I figured I should clarify. I think this warrants Stalker buffs, not Mystic nerfs.

ErrantX, I think you might have missed this post? This thread moves so fast sometimes.

[wooper]

I get that they give up more, I just feel like the way it's written now (adding to what Nine said, they just don't compete power-wise), the bushido won't really see much or any use on the Stalker then. Which, y'know, might be a thematically fitting thing (someone focused on killing won't be as focused on honorable combat, I guess?) but in the end makes the Stalker Bushi feel like much less of a... well, Bushi compared to the other classes.
If you don't take the Bushido (and let's be completely honest here, you probably won't when there's much much better stuff you can take instead and you only get 5 in the first place) what is left that makes you feel like you're playing a Bushi, the "honorable and noble warrior"? Mithral Current (so a trait) and some feats? The recovery?
I feel like the bushido are a strong enough fit thematically - while not being so strong that it would become problematic on a mechanical level, as they certainly don't match up to Stalker Arts in power - that you should just _get_ them and not have to sorta gimp yourself to take them. Maybe it's not a problem at all, but that's how I feel.

[Nyaa]

Anyone ever used Air glyph before level 13? Did you party have arcane caster with haste?

[Extra Anchovies]

Bringing these forward again because they got buried six pages ago. There's been some discussion of both, but I want to know what the designers think about the possibility of including one or both of these ideas.

I feel like there should be a trait that lets you use your unarmed attack base damage when attacking with a (normal, non-spiked) gauntlet (or with brass knuckles, or any other item that doesn't modify the damage or crit change) if your unarmed base damage would be higher than the base damage of the gauntlet. This wouldn't cause any balance concerns that I know of because a gauntlet strike is already treated as an unarmed attack for the purposes of everything except base damage. A feat feels like too high of a cost, but giving it for free is questionable.

Master of 1000 Pokes
A Master of 1000 pokes is like an impenetrable fortress rigged with ballistae ready to rain a perforated death upon any who approach
Benefit: You treat the spear weapon group as one handed weapons.
Normal: Some weapons in the spear weapon group are two handed weapons.

[ErrantX]

Anyone ever used Air glyph before level 13? Did you party have arcane caster with haste?

Air sucked. I fixed it.

Bringing these forward again because they got buried six pages ago. There's been some discussion of both, but I want to know what the designers think about the possibility of including one or both of these ideas.

We're discussing this now. Get back soon on it.

---

New prestige class - let's see if this grabs you. Check out the Animus Adept PrC. Ya want glyphs? Have some glyphs.

-X

[Seerow]

Air sucked. I fixed it.



We're discussing this now. Get back soon on it.

---

New prestige class - let's see if this grabs you. Check out the Animus Adept PrC. Ya want glyphs? Have some glyphs.

-X

You don't think it's going to be confusing calling these abilities glyphs, when the new Mystic Glyphs work completely differently? Unless Mystic Glyphs got another complete overhaul since the last time the mystic got reworked while I wasn't looking.

[stack]

Let me be the first to groan at magic aptitude as a pre-req.

As one who defended the old glyphs, I like it.

[Kaidinah]

New prestige class - let's see if this grabs you. Check out the Animus Adept PrC. Ya want glyphs? Have some glyphs.

-X

Exciting! I can't wait to look at it! By the way, I gave you the Mystic feedback I promised. Reposted it a few posts before this post since this thread moves too fast.