Dragonball Super: So it begins - again

[Psyren]

Alternatively, the whole thing could be extremely arbitrary and petty. It's not like we haven't had gods like that in mythology before. Whis can fix the most egregious things but most of the time can't be arsed.

I mean, we're talking about a universe where pretty much everyone with the title "god" before was most decidedly not worthy of it. Now we get two beings that might actually qualify and in terms of our morality they're either uncomprehending or actively jerks. Honestly, seems legit.

[Rater202]

How exactly are the Kai's or Kaioshin "Unworthy" of being gods?

They're certainly strong enough. It's just, well, Goku's friends and family are stronger.

[Lord Raziere]

Alternatively, the whole thing could be extremely arbitrary and petty. It's not like we haven't had gods like that in mythology before. Whis can fix the most egregious things but most of the time can't be arsed.

I mean, we're talking about a universe where pretty much everyone with the title "god" before was most decidedly not worthy of it. Now we get two beings that might actually qualify and in terms of our morality they're either uncomprehending or actively jerks. Honestly, seems legit.

ooooooooh someone doesn't know their chinese mythology.....

I'll be happy to educate you.

you see, Dragon Ball, being based on Journey To West, therefore probably takes the chinese view of gods: which is basically, all gods live in heaven, heaven is a vast bureaucracy of filing about all of reality, and the gods are its bureaucrats.

thats right, they are totally worthy of being gods. because they are completely worthy of filing paperwork. in this mythology, being a god is a job, not a grandiose title or anything like that.

[Spamotron]

Yeah, in this kind of cosmology god is a role not a level of power. The god of a rice paddy is still just as much of a deity as any other. His/her domain is just more limited.

[Dienekes]

I'm not personally seeing anything spoiler-worthy out in the open but will use them if I drop anything plot-specific.



Eh, while I liked that Vegeta has calmed down quite a bit from the hardline position that led to him going "Majin," I still wasn't super-thrilled at his portrayal here.

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He's still being unnecessarily cold to Bulma and just so wearily above it all. That one little day trip for Trunks is nominally a nice gesture, but he makes it so clear he doesn't want to be there that I can't imagine why Bulma wants to do anything with him. Shrugging her off, making his wife and son carry all the shopping, nearly losing it at the restaurant, then actually losing it at the beach - though at least he didn't vaporize the crowd this time - it all had shades of abuse to me that I can't quite shake. If it weren't for training to help him burn off all that excess rage he'd be impossible to live with. I much preferred the BoG Vegeta that was actually willing to go to far greater lengths for his family than seen here, and I'm hoping we get back around to that one over the course of Bills' arrival.

But his acknowledgement of Goku's superiority, and his resolve to train further - that I can get behind. I also like their divergent approaches to training - Goku's on another plane, using magical weights, reflecting his more spiritual upbringing in Dragonball, and Vegeta's use of technology-enhanced training as a callback to growing up under Freeza's rule. It's kind of cool to think that both paths to improvement are valid, and of course both men have dipped into the other's training well also.

Admittedly, I haven't seen the show.

But in Battle of Gods

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Didn't Vegeta completely ignore his wife's birthday and generally think the whole thing was stupid and that he was above everyone else. He didn't even try to interact with anyone until he was told Beerus was there and that he needed to be entertained.

I don't think he even said anything to his son the whole movie. But I could be misremembering that part.

Anyway, my point is, Vegeta's always been a **** parent and husband. He does care about them, but in most cases he seems to prefer to ignore them and train.

[Rater202]

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Word of Toriyama is that Saiyans tend to self sufficient at a young age, and thus Saiyan parents don't tend to have nesting instincts. They'll defend their children if they're in danger, and perform actions for their children's safety, but, well, they're not going to win any father of the year awards.

[Anteros]

It's not that complicated. They're evil. Just like 90% of our other protagonists when they are first introduced.

[Rater202]

What exactly are you talking about?

I don't see how has bearing on the argument or even who we're referring to.

[Psyren]

ooooooooh someone doesn't know their chinese mythology.....

I'll be happy to educate you.

you see, Dragon Ball, being based on Journey To West, therefore probably takes the chinese view of gods: which is basically, all gods live in heaven, heaven is a vast bureaucracy of filing about all of reality, and the gods are its bureaucrats.

thats right, they are totally worthy of being gods. because they are completely worthy of filing paperwork. in this mythology, being a god is a job, not a grandiose title or anything like that.

I'm well aware of the Celestial Bureaucracy. But even in Chinese myth, their gods are capable of more than just filling out paperwork. They're also guardians and protectors, and the Dragonball gods are very poor at that job, to better to make the mortals shine.

How exactly are the Kai's or Kaioshin "Unworthy" of being gods?

They're certainly strong enough. It's just, well, Goku's friends and family are stronger.

Also various humans. And mortal aliens. And products of human science, even. Dabura is stronger than Kaioshin, and Goku says Dabura is about as strong as Perfect Cell, meaning Cell is also stronger. It's a cosmic joke. Whis and Beerus are the first entities I've seen worthy of the title in all of Dragonball.

Yeah, they have unique abilities that don't come from strength alone - but other aliens have strange powers too. There's little I'd consider particularly divine about them.

What exactly are you talking about?

I don't see how has bearing on the argument or even who we're referring to.

It sounds like he's referring to Whis/Beerus unless I'm mistaken.

[Lord Raziere]

I'm well aware of the Celestial Bureaucracy. But even in Chinese myth, their gods are capable of more than just filling out paperwork. They're also guardians and protectors

who lost to Sun Wukong.

and we're talking about an anime where the main protagonist is basically Sun Wukong BUT AS AN ALIEN.

thing is, gods aren't inherently super-powerful as people like to believe. minor spirits of things like shoes or a random tree were considered gods to in olden times. they're guardians and protectors in the sense they are managers of the thing they are assigned, and sure maybe they know some kung-fu, but I'm guessing guys who spend all their time ruling reality have weaker kung-fu than the guys who spend all their time improving their kung-fu. just saying.

[Rater202]

[QUOTE=Lord Raziere;19533972]who lost to Sun Wukong.

and we're talking about an anime where the main protagonist is basically literally Sun Wukong BUT AS AN ALIEN./QUOTE]

Remember. Japanese translations put Sun Wukong as Son Goku.

So Goku is literally Wukong as an alien.

To be fair, Wukong was a god himself when he defeated the entire celestial bureaucracy.

But, well, he was badass enough to do so from the beginning(Beat up death and then erasing his name from Death's book so that he couldn't die, intimidating a powerful dragon into surrendering high quality magical arms and armor)

[Psyren]

Goku is literally Wukong as an alien.

who lost to Sun Wukong.

and we're talking about an anime where the main protagonist is basically Sun Wukong BUT AS AN ALIEN.

Oh I know who inspired him but he's "literally" nothing of the sort, beyond the most superficial stuff (appearance, extending staff etc.) Goku is already humble, spends Dragonball mostly beating up mortals rather than other gods (where he struggles), and is very much mortal himself.

I'll put it this way then - whatever definition of "god" T was working off when he devised Dragonball, he very clearly revised that when he got around to Whis and Beerus. Both characters pull off feats that I would consider to be far more "godlike." Kami, King Kai, and Kaioushin do very little worthy of note at all, hence my objection to the term.

In other words, the low-fantasy myths that perhaps inspired Dragonball may have been fine definitions of "god" in the beginning, but the series has rapidly outgrown those confines, leaving their "gods" feeling rather pedestrian until BoG came around.

[Rater202]

Goku is already humble

"Goku, X is an incredibly dangerous Warlord/Demon/Monster who can and will kill you and all of your friends."
"Imma fight him!"
-almost every arc

How exactly is that humble? He gets into fights expecting to win. Just because he's usually right, that doen'st mean it's not still hubristic.

As for the Gods in Dragonball? Let's look.

Kami-Created the magical wish granting Dragon that can bring back the Dead, Grant Immortality, and was once used to make someone the king of the World.

He was also the Strongest person on Earth at one time, until he was surpassed by two people-The Stronger Reincarnation of his Evil Half, and the Warrior he personally trained.

King Yemma: Judges the souls of the Dead. Goku acknowledges him as being powerful.

King Kai: Was stronger than anyone on earth, including Goku, at the time of his introduction and invented a technique that multiplies one's raw power. Oversees an entire quadrant of the Universe.

Supreme Kai: Used to rule 1/4 of both the Mortal Universe and Other World. At the time of his Introduction, rules the entire universe. "1000 times stronger than Frieza/Able to defeat the one you call Frieza with a single punch"(Depending on source)

Elder Kai: Used to rule a Quadrant of the Universe. Is Supreme KaiXMortal witch in power, which is at bare minimum 5000 times Frieza in power, and probably much higher.

Kibito Kai: Supreme KaiXKibito in power, and thus significantly more powerful than Base Supreme Kai.

Other Supreme Kais: Rules quadrants of the Universe and other world until Destruction. 1000 times as Powerful as Frieza.

Grand Supreme Kai: 1000 times stronger than Frieza. Ruler of the Universe. When ABsorbed by Majin Buu, he permanently fused with him, thus allowing his inherent goodness and innocent nature to both render the living engine of destruction more dociel and less dangers and lock away the lions share of it's power, thus rendering Buu functionally weeker.

All of that sounds pretty Goddly to me.

[Calemyr]

"Goku, X is an incredibly dangerous Warlord/Demon/Monster who can and will kill you and all of your friends."
"Imma fight him!"
-almost every arc

How exactly is that humble? He gets into fights expecting to win. Just because he's usually right, that doen'st mean it's not still hubristic.

As for the Gods in Dragonball? Let's look.

Kami-Created the magical wish granting Dragon that can bring back the Dead, Grant Immortality, and was once used to make someone the king of the World.

He was also the Strongest person on Earth at one time, until he was surpassed by two people-The Stronger Reincarnation of his Evil Half, and the Warrior he personally trained.

King Yemma: Judges the souls of the Dead. Goku acknowledges him as being powerful.

King Kai: Was stronger than anyone on earth, including Goku, at the time of his introduction and invented a technique that multiplies one's raw power. Oversees an entire quadrant of the Universe.

Supreme Kai: Used to rule 1/4 of both the Mortal Universe and Other World. At the time of his Introduction, rules the entire universe. "1000 times stronger than Frieza/Able to defeat the one you call Frieza with a single punch"(Depending on source)

Elder Kai: Used to rule a Quadrant of the Universe. Is Supreme KaiXMortal witch in power, which is at bare minimum 5000 times Frieza in power, and probably much higher.

Kibito Kai: Supreme KaiXKibito in power, and thus significantly more powerful than Base Supreme Kai.

Other Supreme Kais: Rules quadrants of the Universe and other world until Destruction. 1000 times as Powerful as Frieza.

Grand Supreme Kai: 1000 times stronger than Frieza. Ruler of the Universe. When ABsorbed by Majin Buu, he permanently fused with him, thus allowing his inherent goodness and innocent nature to both render the living engine of destruction more dociel and less dangers and lock away the lions share of it's power, thus rendering Buu functionally weeker.

All of that sounds pretty Goddly to me.

Goku is supremely confident, and justly so, but not vain. He does not believe that his martial excellence makes him better than anyone, just better suited to fighting powerful bad guys - along with an everlasting desire to go up against anything that can push his limits. Vegeta does not have a reputation for humility, Goku does.

As for the gods, few of them are "divine"* in any real sense. They are just ridiculously powerful compared to anything beneath them in the hierarchy and generally put that power to use for the management and protection of their territory. King Kai is a bit of goof off, but the other so-called gods (and even King Kai, once involved) are willing to work very hard and sacrifice whatever is needed to do their jobs. I suppose they also have to be absurdly long-lived as well.

* Defining "divine" as having a nature that transcends the mortal framework. Kami was just an alien. Kais eat and sleep and die and, outside of lifespan and increased power levels and abilities, aren't anything different from mortals. The dragons are really the only "divine" beings I see in the story - their abilities are not bound to a different framework, one that can resurrect the dead as easily as it can conjure up underwear, while wielding almost no mortal power at all (no wish has ever been able to kill a villain).

[Prime32]

As for the gods, few of them are "divine"* in any real sense. They are just ridiculously powerful compared to anything beneath them in the hierarchy and generally put that power to use for the management and protection of their territory. King Kai is a bit of goof off, but the other so-called gods (and even King Kai, once involved) are willing to work very hard and sacrifice whatever is needed to do their jobs. I suppose they also have to be absurdly long-lived as well.

* Defining "divine" as having a nature that transcends the mortal framework. Kami was just an alien. Kais eat and sleep and die and, outside of lifespan and increased power levels and abilities, aren't anything different from mortals. The dragons are really the only "divine" beings I see in the story - their abilities are not bound to a different framework, one that can resurrect the dead as easily as it can conjure up underwear, while wielding almost no mortal power at all (no wish has ever been able to kill a villain).

Kami was just an alien, but he gained extra powers as part of his position - gods in the DBZ-verse are capable of travelling between the realms of the living and the dead, sensing and communicating at incredible distances, and possibly reading minds. He also possessed someone once, which doesn't seem to be a Namekian ability.

Then there's King Yama's control over life, death and reincarnation.

Dragons are quasi-divine, yes, but they can be cut off from their power source or even killed in battle.

[Starwulf]

Dragons are quasi-divine, yes, but they can be cut off from their power source or even killed in battle.

Unless that happened in Dragonball and I just don't remember it, that is absolutely non-canon as it happened in GT.

[Psyren]

"Goku, X is an incredibly dangerous Warlord/Demon/Monster who can and will kill you and all of your friends."
"Imma fight him!"
-almost every arc

How exactly is that humble? He gets into fights expecting to win. Just because he's usually right, that doen'st mean it's not still hubristic.

His calling card tends to be "I ain't gonna know until I try" - which is a decidedly non-hubristic way of approaching a fight. It's determination, not conceit. And when he knows for sure he's outclassed - like he did with Raditz, the Androids, and Cell - he's very up front about it.

As for the Gods in Dragonball? Let's look.

Kami-Created the magical wish granting Dragon that can bring back the Dead, Grant Immortality, and was once used to make someone the king of the World.

He was also the Strongest person on Earth at one time, until he was surpassed by two people-The Stronger Reincarnation of his Evil Half, and the Warrior he personally trained.

King Yemma: Judges the souls of the Dead. Goku acknowledges him as being powerful.

King Kai: Was stronger than anyone on earth, including Goku, at the time of his introduction and invented a technique that multiplies one's raw power. Oversees an entire quadrant of the Universe.

Supreme Kai: Used to rule 1/4 of both the Mortal Universe and Other World. At the time of his Introduction, rules the entire universe. "1000 times stronger than Frieza/Able to defeat the one you call Frieza with a single punch"(Depending on source)

Elder Kai: Used to rule a Quadrant of the Universe. Is Supreme KaiXMortal witch in power, which is at bare minimum 5000 times Frieza in power, and probably much higher.

Kibito Kai: Supreme KaiXKibito in power, and thus significantly more powerful than Base Supreme Kai.

Other Supreme Kais: Rules quadrants of the Universe and other world until Destruction. 1000 times as Powerful as Frieza.

Grand Supreme Kai: 1000 times stronger than Frieza. Ruler of the Universe. When ABsorbed by Majin Buu, he permanently fused with him, thus allowing his inherent goodness and innocent nature to both render the living engine of destruction more dociel and less dangers and lock away the lions share of it's power, thus rendering Buu functionally weeker.

All of that sounds pretty Goddly to me.

The dragons and possibly judging the dead are the only things even remotely godly on that list. Everything else is just "particularly strong mortal." Only one figure is capable of the latter that we've seen.

The dragons themselves are inconsistent. Supposedly they can't do anything that exceeds the power of their creator, yet they can do things the creator cannot do on his own, such as revive the dead or transport people en masse. It's pretty unclear, but the only logical conclusion is that they are in fact stronger than Kami and therefore that he is unworthy of the title.

Meanwhile, King Kai openly admits that he is weaker than Nappa. King Yemma is even weaker than he is. Kaioushin is outclassed by an android made by human hands, using nothing but science and alien cells. Whis and Beerus could flick their fingers and dispose of the lot of them. That's godlike.

[Rater202]

Kami.

Created.

A Nigh Omnipotrnt Dragon.

That dies when Kami dies.

And explicitly can't do anything that's outside the power of it's creator*

Yet Kami isn't worthy of being Kami.

Despite him having the position in the first place, the powers that come with it, and you know, having made a what is essentially a massive Dragon Shaped Genie.

You are focusing on raw power, rather than abilities and responsibilities, I think.

It doen'st matter how Powerful Kaio-Sama is, he personally oversees the entire northern quadrant of the universe, and, as he himself points out in episode 2 of Super, is a rather important deity. He can also sense Beerus' enregy, which mortals can't.

Cell doesn't count, as a measuring stick, for the simple fact that he's a unique organism that's designed to cheat. Gero was a Munchkin, plain and simple.

Kaioshin rules the entire universe, by the time fo his Introduction. The Mortal Universe and otherworld. His title literally means "God-King of the Worlds" He is explicitly 1000 times as powerful as Frieza. His power level is 530,000,000 at bare minimum and 120,000,000,000 at maximum.

And if you categorize someone as "Not deserving to be called a God" because a mortal might be stronger than them?

Resurrection F, Goku and Vegeta are literally gods by DBZ Logic. Whis claims that if they worked together, they could defeat Beerus. Frieza, however, is not a deity.

After his training and in his Golden form, Frieza is more powerful than Goku is, whe Goku is both a God and in his "Divinely empowered stronger than normal blue super saiyan" form.

So, by your reasoning, an explicitly divine character who could potentially defeat Beerus, ins';t a god. Because there's a mortal with more raw power

[Prime32]

Unless that happened in Dragonball and I just don't remember it, that is absolutely non-canon as it happened in GT.

Meanwhile, King Kai openly admits that he is weaker than Nappa. King Yemma is even weaker than he is. Kaioushin is outclassed by an android made by human hands, using nothing but science and alien cells. Whis and Beerus could flick their fingers and dispose of the lot of them. That's godlike.

The Greek gods get outclassed by mortals all the time, and are only immortal because they have a monopoly on the food that makes you immortal when you eat it. A lot of pantheons are like that.

[Rater202]

The concept of a deity as being omnipotent and eternal is very much a modern one.

[Psyren]

Kami.

Created.

A Nigh Omnipotrnt Dragon.

I'm going to stop you right here and point to your sig - there's no need to Post. Like. This. We're having a civil conversation.

Also, Shenlong is extremely far from omnipotent, because it is tethered to Kami's power; It's no more a "god" than any other genie, and even less than that in some cases.

I fully acknowledge that that's primarily my Western upbringing and sentiment talking. And yet, it seems that Toriyama himself is being influenced more by western myth too - just look at Beerus' and Whis' designs.

It doen'st matter how Powerful Kaio-Sama is, he personally oversees the entire northern quadrant of the universe, and, as he himself points out in episode 2 of Super, is a rather important deity. He can also sense Beerus' enregy, which mortals can't.

He "oversees it" - and what exactly does that mean? Threats arise and he can't do a thing. He quakes in fear at the mere thought of getting Freeza's attention, and he isn't even aware that the Nameks are undergoing genocide until Goku asks him to look. So even the one job he CAN do, he fails at.

And he can't even claim it's because the fate of one world is too small for him to intervene with. An Immortal Freeza, or no Dragonballs left in this timeline at all, has universe-spanning consequences.

It's like calling your pet a "watchdog" because it watches the crooks come in and watches them walk out with all your stuff without barking.
Semantically accurate, sure, but the expected connotation of the word is that it can do something about that. An "overseer" is really supposed to do more than sit back and see, even though the name itself doesn't imply more.

And in this analogy, the dog is fast asleep even.

Cell doesn't count, as a measuring stick, for the simple fact that he's a unique organism that's designed to cheat. Gero was a Munchkin, plain and simple.

Certainly, but the mere fact that a mortal could cheat to that degree - not through spiritual enlightenment, not through summoning something that already existed, but purely through science - is a problem with the metaphysics of this universe. At least, if you think the term "god" had meaning prior to Beerus.

Kaioshin rules the entire universe, by the time fo his Introduction. The Mortal Universe and otherworld. His title literally means "God-King of the Worlds" He is explicitly 1000 times as powerful as Frieza. His power level is 530,000,000 at bare minimum and 120,000,000,000 at maximum.

Then why is Freeza allowed to run amok and commit genocide? And you can't even tell me it's because of the SSJ prophecy, because he had no idea what Super Saiyans were! Some god!

[Kato]

The concept of a deity as being omnipotent and eternal is very much a modern one.

More like, Judeo-Christian, I think. And possibly some others, not sure.

But yes, the idea of what a god is differs greatly among different belief systems, just look at e.g. Thor (any depiction). Superhuman? Sure. Omnipotent or really responsible for the well being of humans or anything? Hardly.
In most religions or mythologies which are not based on Judaism, gods are mostly more powerful people, people with some special powers or something like that. Which doesn't even necessitate them being always better than humans. Basically, if you call yourself a god and beat up anyone who says you're wrong, you're a god

[Rater202]

Also, Shenlong is extremely far from omnipotent, because it is tethered to Kami's power; It's no more a "god" than any other genie, and even less than that in some cases.

I said nigh-omnipotent. Within his limitations, he is all powerful, and from what I understand, his limitations are "is it possible" and "could his creator do so, with the power he had at the time of shenlong's creation, if he knew how?"

He quakes in fear at the mere thought of getting Freeza's attention, and he isn't even aware that the Nameks are undergoing genocide until Goku asks him to look. So even the one job he CAN do, he fails at.

Of course, Frieza is stronger than he is, and we don't know what part of the universe Namek is in, I don't think, so it might have been outside of Kaio-Sama's jurisdiction.

Certainly, but the mere fact that a mortal could cheat to that degree - not through spiritual enlightenment, not through summoning something that already existed, but purely through science - is a problem with the metaphysics of this universe. At least, if you think the term "god" had meaning prior to Beerus.

Cheating is still cheating. Gero found the combination of DNA that was the universal "God Mode" cheat code, then fed the resulting being two perpetual enrgy generators. No more, not less(and considering the levels of power Gohan reached after his potential was unlocked the second time, and the Power Frieza reached when he actually applied himself, and the level Goku and Vegeta reached after becoming Gods, Cell was, ironically, far from perfect.

Then why is Freeza allowed to run amok and commit genocide? And you can't even tell me it's because of the SSJ prophecy, because he had no idea what Super Saiyans were! Some god!

Kaioshin-sama's job is to rule, not to police.

It's not the Job of a god to clean up the messes of mortals. He only got involved in the Buu saga because Majin Buu is a threat to all of existance(having destroyed entire planets, possessing the ability to travel between dimensions including the mortal realm and otherworld, and killed and/or ate four of the strongest gods in Otherworld(Who were the strongest until Beerus was introduced)

[Psyren]

...Within his limitations, he is all powerful...

Do you not see the contradiction here? These are mutually exclusive.

Of course, Frieza is stronger than he is, and we don't know what part of the universe Namek is in, I don't think, so it might have been outside of Kaio-Sama's jurisdiction.

It clearly was in his jurisdiction, because he directly interfered by contacting Guru and Kami with the wishes he wanted made. Either he would have had to ask another Kai's permission to do so (which he doesn't), or jurisdisction as a concept has no meaning. Unless Namek was in his purview, his actions there would have run totally counter to the concept of a Celestial Bureaucracy.

Cheating is still cheating. Gero found the combination of DNA that was the universal "God Mode" cheat code, then fed the resulting being two perpetual enrgy generators. No more, not less(and considering the levels of power Gohan reached after his potential was unlocked the second time, and the Power Frieza reached when he actually applied himself, and the level Goku and Vegeta reached after becoming Gods, Cell was, ironically, far from perfect.

Cell never had a chance (or reason) to apply himself either, so it stands to reason that he had just as much potential as Freeza. Not bad for a human creation.

Kaioshin-sama's job is to rule, not to police.

It's not the Job of a god to clean up the messes of mortals. He only got involved in the Buu saga because Majin Buu is a threat to all of existance(having destroyed entire planets, possessing the ability to travel between dimensions including the mortal realm and otherworld, and killed and/or ate four of the strongest gods in Otherworld(Who were the strongest until Beerus was introduced)

The Namekians clearly state that Cell was a threat to all existence too, and even began having premonitions about him all the way on Namek-2; hence being so willing to send Dende to Earth to make new Dragon Balls. Again, not bad for a human creation. Perhaps Kaioshin would have stepped in to try and stop him once he really got going - but given that Cell was already as strong as Dabura, Kaioshin would have likely failed.

The sad truth is that Kaioshin was a joke; Vegeta openly insulted him, and even Goku intimidated him into standing aside.

[Rater202]

Cell had no way to get into other Dimensions until he compied Goku's Instant transmission by absorbing some of Goku's remaining cells from when they were both blown to bits by Cell's self destruct mechanism.

He was only a threat to the mortal part of 1 universe(out of 12) until then, and until then the mortals were doing a pretty good job of cleaning up an other mortals's mess.

And I'm aware of the contradiction in the statement "all powerful within his limitations" though parameters would probably have been a better word to use.

That contradiction, having limits to your reality shaking power, is the difference between omnipotent and nigh-omnipotent.

I referred to the dragons and nigh-omnipotent.

[Lord Raziere]

Psyren.

if it makes you feel any better, just replace any mention of a god with "spirit" and that will be basically the same thing in any mythology that isn't Judeo-Christian.

Kami is a spirit of watching over earth.

the Kais are spirits of certain quadrants of the galaxy. Yemma is a spirit of judging the dead.

and so on and so forth. nowhere are they inherently great fighters just because they are powerful. the only spirit who is an inherently great fighter, is the spirit of destruction.

not all power is fighting power. Yemma has great power in that he can determine where you go where you die, but that doesn't mean he can fight you if you disagree with his assessment.

heck, Dende has great power in being able to heal anyone, yet he is not a great fighter at all.

and Freeza is canonically said to be a mutant of his race, he is incredibly powerful because he is born that way and he never actually trained to become more powerful, probably only to learn techniques to use the power he already has through. Gohan is said to be the most powerful person in the universe for a while yet because he focuses on studying for seven years, his power wanes.

power in DB is more than just raw strength its about having the discipline and will to constantly keep your control finely honed and on edge. the Kais might be powerful but if they don't constantly train like the Z-Fighters, all that power is useless, because you need the techniques and constant training to keep yourself at peak condition. North Kai could be the most powerful person ever, but if his kung-fu is weak, none of that power means anything and you don't need to be tip-top shape to teach techniques to somebody else.

(I'd shudder what Psyren would think if he ever played Exalted. that game is all about surpassing the gods because your an awesome badass and they're low-level spirit-bureaucrats)

[Psyren]

Psyren.

if it makes you feel any better, just replace any mention of a god with "spirit" and that will be basically the same thing in any mythology that isn't Judeo-Christian.

That's fine for DB and DBZ. But DBS has proven pretty definitively that when it says god, it means the real deal. It wasn't "Battle of Spirits" or "Super Saiyan Spirit", ya know.

As in, disaster-causing, time-manipulating, cosmos-travelling, be-hospitable-to-me-OR-ELSE, gods.

And again, this is reflected in Toriyama's designs - going pretty explicitly for Egyptian mythology etc.

[Prime32]

That's fine for DB and DBZ. But DBS has proven pretty definitively that when it says god, it means the real deal. It wasn't "Battle of Spirits" or "Super Saiyan Spirit", ya know.

As in, disaster-causing, time-manipulating, cosmos-travelling, be-hospitable-to-me-OR-ELSE, gods.

And again, this is reflected in Toriyama's designs - going pretty explicitly for Egyptian mythology etc.

Dude, this is how Shinto/Buddhist gods work. Some of the characters you've said "aren't real gods" are worshipped in real life. The writer is not Christian, he does not hold to Christian views of what a real god is.

Beerus has the greatest destructive power of any god in the series because he's the only one who has destruction as his actual job. For the others it's incidental.

[Rater202]

Likewise, Whis is stronger than Beerus and can turn back time because his job is to teach, mind, attend to, train, and fix the mistakes of the Gods of Destruction.

Also, if you remember, Elder Kai claimed that the being who sealed him in the Z-Sword was not as powerful as Buu.

Akira Toriyama said that Beerus was the one who did it.

Thus, Beerus was not always this strong.

Which makes sense. Beerus's job is to destroy planets.

Vegeta was capable of doing that with a PL of 18000 and a well placed Gallick Gun.

So it's entirely possible that Beerus was significantly weaker when he first became the god of destruction and trained himself up to where he is now(which is presumably why Whis's duties include being Beerus teacher/personal trainer.)

[Starwulf]

Figured I'd chime in here and say that perhaps you all should stop bringing up real-world religion, even as minor comparisons, lest our thread get locked/scrubbed.