General Exalted Discussion XVII: Edition of Cascading Years

[Grinner]

I have a question about first edition.

How do mortal characters learn Sorcery? Simple forms of magic can be handled as straightforward Occult rolls, and the Player's Guide apparently describes a more powerful form of magic suitable for mortal use called Thaumaturgy. I keep seeing statements throughout a few books that mortals on occasion learn to use actual Sorcery, though.

The requirements for casting a Sorcery spell consist of having the appropriate Charm, expending xp to learn the spell, and expending willpower and Essence to cast it. The last two are well within the reach of mortal characters, but the rules are very explicit that mortal characters cannot buy Charms. So how do mortal characters acquire the needed Charms?

[Yuki Akuma]

In second edition it's simply handled by letting enlightened mortals buy Sorcery Initiation charms (well, the first one) if they have preposterously-high (for a mortal) Essence and Occult. I think it also requires a lot more effort than an Exalt buying the charm, but mechanically it's just represented by buying a charm. Same goes for martial arts charms - mortals can learn those, too, if they have enlightened essence and have someone willing to teach them.

I think the requirements are something like Essence 3 and Occult 5 for the first circle, and the rest are impossible because mortals can't raise their Essence or Abilities any higher than that.

I have no idea how first edition handles it though. Sorry.

[Grinner]

I have no idea how first edition handles it though. Sorry.

No, what you've described is still helpful. At least I now have a bearing on what the threads I've been reading have been talking about.

[snakeobsidian]

Heyo! I've created an interest check thread over the recruitment sub-forum. Any ST eager to test the new 3rd Edition system can come over the forum and check us with this name: [Interest Check] Exalted! Third Edition! No links yet, sorry. I'm sorta línea new.

We're planning on having a campaign on the new South!

[curious-puzzle]

Hey all, was hoping someone could help with a couple questions on Dreaming Pearl Courtesan style: *Edit: 3rd edition, sorry!*

With Elegant Weapon Repetoire, can you use Martial Arts to attack with the essence-infused items, or would you have to use Melee?

And since it doesn't state that you can stunt to deal lethal unarmed damage with Dreaming Pearl, there's nothing restricting me from using the Fists of Iron charm from Brawl to do so (as well as Parry if something bypasses Dodge.

And I made my first Exalted character!

Spoiler: Dancing Leaf, Night Caste brothel worker turned kung fu assassin

Show

Dancing Leaf, night caste
Strength 2, Dex 4, Sta 3
Cha 3, Man 4, App 4
Per 3, Int 2, Wits 3

Athletics 3 (caste, specialty acrobatics)
Awareness 2
Brawl 1 (favored)
Dodge 5 (Supernal )
Integrity 3 (favored)
Investigate 1
Larceny 2 (caste)
Linguistics 1 (favored)
Martial arts 5 (dreaming pearl, favored)
Performance 3 (favored, specialty dance )
Presence 2 (favored)
Resistance 2
Socialize 4 (caste, specialty entertaining)
Stealth 3 (caste, specialty blending )

Willpower 7
Essence 1
Personal motes 13
Peripheral motes 33

Merits
Martial artist (cost 4)
Languages (cost 3 -High Realm, Low Realm, Dragontongue)
Mentor (cost 3)

Limit trigger : Being treated or ordered about in a dismissive manner (like a slave)

Soak 3 hardness 0
Parry 5 evasion 5
Resolve 3 guile 4
13 health (one 0, three -1, seven -2, one -4, one inc)

Intimacies
Defining tie/principle:Slavery cannot be suffered
Major tie:Dragonblooded soldiers (resentment and fear)
Minor tie:mysterious mentor (wary gratitude)
Minor tie/principle: Everyone has a price

Charms
Demure carp feint
Elegant weapon repetoire
Pearlescent filigree defense
Ox body meditation X2
Reed in the wind
Soaring quicksilver flight
Force - stealing feint
Seven shadow evasion
Drifting leaf elusion
Seasoned criminal method
Thousand courtesan ways
Motive discerning technique
Easily overlooked prana
Fists of iron

I'm aiming for him to be pretty good in combat and social situations, especially when he can get the drop on someone. Have I made any glaring errors or missed any important charms/abilities? Also, what would be nastier to combine with Dreaming Pearl - Snake style, or Black Claw? I'm leaning towards Black Claw (not just because it looks hilarious).

[SaurOps]

I have a question about first edition.

How do mortal characters learn Sorcery?

They didn't. They were limited to thaumaturgy, which was divided into Arts (a kind of super-specialty), Sciences (a power bought dot by dot, like old school WoD powers) and some stand-alone ritual powers.

Simple forms of magic can be handled as straightforward Occult rolls, and the Player's Guide apparently describes a more powerful form of magic suitable for mortal use called Thaumaturgy. I keep seeing statements throughout a few books that mortals on occasion learn to use actual Sorcery, though.

They were referring to thaumaturgy, confusingly enough.

The requirements for casting a Sorcery spell consist of having the appropriate Charm, expending xp to learn the spell, and expending willpower and Essence to cast it. The last two are well within the reach of mortal characters, but the rules are very explicit that mortal characters cannot buy Charms. So how do mortal characters acquire the needed Charms?

Even late 1e wasn't quite to the point where it allowed mortals to get sorcery. That's about twelve years ago for you. I'd say that if you want to deal with sorcery even in past editions, though, you should use most of the systems from EX3, because the older ones just couldn't make sorcery pop.

[Grinner]

They were referring to thaumaturgy, confusingly enough.

Really?

Let me pull a quote from Savant & Sorcerer: "God-Blooded and mortal sorcerers are the most rare of warstrider wearers. It takes great effort for mortals to unlock their Essence pools and learn to attune to artifacts, and few in the Age of Sorrow wish to 'waste' their talents becoming second-rate military assets after doing so."

From a review on the Exalted Player's Guide, I'm led to believe that Thaumaturgy is powered by "ritual points" instead of Essence motes. Thus, that quote doesn't seem to be talking about Thaumaturgy-practitioners to me, leading me to believe it's instead talking about Sorcery-practitioners.

Sorry if I seem a bit contrary. I'm still collecting books, leaving me with incomplete information, but the information I do have seems to point in the opposite direction.

[Lanaya]

With Elegant Weapon Repetoire, can you use Martial Arts to attack with the essence-infused items, or would you have to use Melee?

The section on the Dreaming Pearl form weapons specifies that the improvised weapons can be used with Dreaming Pearl.

And since it doesn't state that you can stunt to deal lethal unarmed damage with Dreaming Pearl, there's nothing restricting me from using the Fists of Iron charm from Brawl to do so (as well as Parry if something bypasses Dodge.

Martial arts are explicitly not compatible with any other combat abilities. If you're making an MA attack it can't benefit from Fists of Iron Technique or any other non-MA charms.

[curious-puzzle]

Thanks, Lanaya!

[Kobold-Bard]

They didn't. They were limited to thaumaturgy, which was divided into Arts (a kind of super-specialty), Sciences (a power bought dot by dot, like old school WoD powers) and some stand-alone ritual powers.

...

No, an Essence 3, Occult 5 charm taught mortals sorcery.

[SaurOps]

Really?

Let me pull a quote from Savant & Sorcerer: "God-Blooded and mortal sorcerers are the most rare of warstrider wearers. It takes great effort for mortals to unlock their Essence pools and learn to attune to artifacts, and few in the Age of Sorrow wish to 'waste' their talents becoming second-rate military assets after doing so."

From a review on the Exalted Player's Guide, I'm led to believe that Thaumaturgy is powered by "ritual points" instead of Essence motes. Thus, that quote doesn't seem to be talking about Thaumaturgy-practitioners to me, leading me to believe it's instead talking about Sorcery-practitioners.

Sorry if I seem a bit contrary. I'm still collecting books, leaving me with incomplete information, but the information I do have seems to point in the opposite direction.

I didn't get Savant and Sorcerer. I got extremely salty about the Lunar content that existed about the time that it and most of the Aspect Books came out.

[Sith_Happens]

So suppose I have a Melee Supernal with Ox-Body Technique, Body-Mending Meditation, and heavy artifact armor. Am I better off with Durability of Oak Meditation or a second Ox-Body?

And I made my first Exalted character!

Spoiler: Dancing Leaf, Night Caste brothel worker turned kung fu assassin

Show

Dancing Leaf, night caste
Strength 2, Dex 4, Sta 3
Cha 3, Man 4, App 4
Per 3, Int 2, Wits 3

Athletics 3 (caste, specialty acrobatics)
Awareness 2
Brawl 1 (favored)
Dodge 5 (Supernal )
Integrity 3 (favored)
Investigate 1
Larceny 2 (caste)
Linguistics 1 (favored)
Martial arts 5 (dreaming pearl, favored)
Performance 3 (favored, specialty dance )
Presence 2 (favored)
Resistance 2
Socialize 4 (caste, specialty entertaining)
Stealth 3 (caste, specialty blending )

Willpower 7
Essence 1
Personal motes 13
Peripheral motes 33

Merits
Martial artist (cost 4)
Languages (cost 3 -High Realm, Low Realm, Dragontongue)
Mentor (cost 3)

Limit trigger : Being treated or ordered about in a dismissive manner (like a slave)

Soak 3 hardness 0
Parry 5 evasion 5
Resolve 3 guile 4
13 health (one 0, three -1, seven -2, one -4, one inc)

Intimacies
Defining tie/principle:Slavery cannot be suffered
Major tie:Dragonblooded soldiers (resentment and fear)
Minor tie:mysterious mentor (wary gratitude)
Minor tie/principle: Everyone has a price

Charms
Demure carp feint
Elegant weapon repetoire
Pearlescent filigree defense
Ox body meditation X2
Reed in the wind
Soaring quicksilver flight
Force - stealing feint
Seven shadow evasion
Drifting leaf elusion
Seasoned criminal method
Thousand courtesan ways
Motive discerning technique
Easily overlooked prana
Fists of iron

I'm aiming for him to be pretty good in combat and social situations, especially when he can get the drop on someone. Have I made any glaring errors or missed any important charms/abilities?

Off the top of my head:

> If you want to be "good in social situations" you're going to want either a few more dots in Presence or Harmonious Presence Meditation. Are there any particular sorts of social things you especially want to make sure to be good at?

> I'd swap Fists of Iron Technique for Shadow Over Water. The only time you should be parrying is against undodgeable attacks which there are one or two of in the whole book, and if you need to deal lethal damage you can just use a weapon. Negating onslaught penalties, on the other hand, is something you'll likely find yourself wanting to do often.

> The only time you want Motive-Discerning Technique one time is as a prerequisite; double-9s for 3m is almost always worse than the three Excellency dice you could be getting instead. Either buy that Charm again or drop it.

Also, what would be nastier to combine with Dreaming Pearl - Snake style, or Black Claw? I'm leaning towards Black Claw (not just because it looks hilarious).

I thought about this a while ago for one of my own characters, but unfortunately neither of them are compatible with any Dreaming Pearl weapons (except unarmed) or with Pearlescent Filigree Defense.

Martial arts are explicitly not compatible with any other combat abilities. If you're making an MA attack it can't benefit from Fists of Iron Technique or any other non-MA charms.

Actually it only says that you can't combine Martial Arts Charms with non-Martial Arts Charms. So you could totally enhance an unarmed Dreaming Pearl attack with Fists of Iron Technique, you just won't also be able to use Elegant Weapon Repertoire on that attack. That said, EWR is (IMO) almost always the superior attack-enhancer of the two, which is one more reason for a Dreaming Pearl user to not have Fists of Iron.

[ghanjrho]

So suppose I have a Melee Supernal with Ox-Body Technique, Body-Mending Meditation, and heavy artifact armor. Am I better off with Durability of Oak Meditation or a second Ox-Body?

What's your Stamina? I'd probably grab Durability of Oak Meditation in your case. You already have one OBT, and DoOM helps out your more active defenses. Plus, it puts you one Charm closer to Adamant Skin Technique.

[Sith_Happens]

What's your Stamina?

Three. If I were getting -0 health levels out of Ox-Body Technique a second one would be so worth it.

[curious-puzzle]

Wow, I had not seen Harmonious presence meditation. Definitely taking that instead of motive discerning technique, and swapping fists of iron for Shadow over water. Thanks, Sith_Happens!

[Sith_Happens]

Wow, I had not seen Harmonious presence meditation. Definitely taking that instead of motive discerning technique, and swapping fists of iron for Shadow over water. Thanks, Sith_Happens!

This is just me but I'd go ahead and pre-commit the 7m-for-indefinite out of your peripheral so you never have to worry about it again. Mainly because if you're using the scene-long version you have to do it from your personal motes to avoid anima flare and you have way fewer of those.

I'm also really skeptical of that second Ox-Body Meditation. If you remember to stunt your Defense it'll take nine successes to hit you without using Reed in the Wind, and you steal two Initiative with each dodge. Your health levels are going to go a ridiculously long way.

[Madwand]

Heyo! I've created an interest check thread over the recruitment sub-forum. Any ST eager to test the new 3rd Edition system can come over the forum and check us with this name: [Interest Check] Exalted! Third Edition! No links yet, sorry. I'm sorta línea new.

We're planning on having a campaign on the new South!

So, I am going to run that test game of Exalted Third Edition. LINK to thread and LINK to post with background info on campaign and details of recruitment.

And on that note, happy new year, everyone.

[Sith_Happens]

I thought about this a while ago for one of my own characters, but unfortunately neither of them are compatible with any Dreaming Pearl weapons (except unarmed) or with Pearlescent Filigree Defense.

Correction to the above: Snake Style is compatible with Pearlescent Filigree Defense.

[tonberrian]

Correction to the above: Snake Style is compatible with Pearlescent Filigree Defense.

Unless you're in Carp Dragon form.

[Sith_Happens]

When it says that a hold at bay attack "gains +5 automatic damage," is that dice of damage or health levels of damage?

[TheCountAlucard]

When it says that a hold at bay attack "gains +5 automatic damage," is that dice of damage or health levels of damage?

Just dice.

[Sith_Happens]

So I recently noticed what I think might be a pretty big problem with the new combat system: as far as I can tell from various rules and Charms and whatnot, you're generally supposed to know whether an attack you've just been targeted by is withering or decisive. The problem being that most players are going to hear "You're being decisive-attacked" and think "Time to full Excellency." Even with quick characters having uniform accuracy that more or less leaves only other Exalts with a decent chance of ever actually hitting a PC with a decisive attack (and even then only if they full Excellency as well).

[Ifni]

They'll burn quite a few motes that way, though, if they're only relying on the Excellency. I think it's probably working-as-intended that Exalts can make themselves very hard to hit by spending resources. Also, if they don't have a penalty negator, onslaught penalties will help bring down their DV.

A separate question: I'd be interested to know about other settings that you (as Exalted players) have enjoyed, that share some of the same qualities that attracted you to Exalted. I really like the Exalted setting, but after five years of playing in it, I'm starting to feel that I've told most of the stories I really wanted to tell (although I've never gotten to play a lasting game at Essence 4+, so that would be nice, on the off-chance any prospective STs are reading ) I'm not a 3e enthusiast (although I am giving it a chance), so I'm looking around for other game systems+settings I might like. Recommendations would be very welcome.

I generally prefer fantasy settings to sci-fi ones, and I like the way Exalted draws from a lot of real-world cultures and is Definitely Not Fantasy Medieval Europe; I'm also pretty comprehensively not-interested in settings where sexism is ubiquitous. (There's nothing wrong with such settings existing, but I have no interest in playing in them.)

[Madwand]

@Sith_Happens, I view this as a feature not a bug. It's just that Exalted are awesome and harming one should be difficult.

[Recaiden]

I'm not sure it's a weakness of the system.

If you fail a decisive attack, you keep most of your initiative. There's a reasonable expectation that the attacker will be able to make another decisive attack with the same resources. It's a weirder way of wearing down the defender, but it happens. Makes sense that the most important attacks are backed up and defended against with all one's resources. In my experience, it just doesn't happen that way. People only use Excellencies if they think they have to, and rightly believe that they can survive many decisive attacks. Now, my players probably aren't representative, but that's what I've seen.

On the completely different topic of other games:
Numenera's setting has the same taste to me as some kinds of Exalted. It's great at showing off weird and wondrous things.
Black Crusade has a very different setting, being a Warhammer 40K game, but it feels like Exalted.

[Guancyto]

The first Exalted game I ever played was in a Chrono Trigger setting, where time travel was not only a thing the PCs could do, it was the main plot. The game didn't last that long, but we actually spent most of our time in the Shogunate (where my character, a Night Caste, came from). The ST's thought was 1000AD="exalted year zero", 600AD="shogunate", 12,000BC="first age shenanigans", 65milBC="time of glory" and then 2300AD="post-doom darknessssssss"

The character that properly got me into Exalted wasn't even a real PC, there was a kid Defiler that came from the future and his familiar was a helltech zombie in a chinadress, and he would get insistent when people excluded her because HEY, she had a soul and everything!

And then we had to time travel to avert the bad future. Being super new to the setting I thought we could just pop into the time of glory and tell the Primordials things weren't gonna go well for them and they should pack up and move on to a new world, it's probably (definitely) a good thing I never got to make good on that because we would've had a bad time.

[Sith_Happens]

Three more 3e questions:

1. A few Socialize Charms make reference to "venting" Limit by defending your Intimacies. Is that a leftover from a previous version of the rules?

2. Are Solars supposed to display/undergo any changes in behavior as they gain Limit, or are they completely fine until Limit Break?

3. How should Body-Mending Meditation interact with aggravated damage?

[Kobold-Bard]

...

2. Are Solars supposed to display/undergo any changes in behavior as they gain Limit, or are they completely fine until Limit Break?

...

Limit Break is the straw that breaks the camel' back, so there would be a build up leading to the explosion, yes. The Usurpation happened because of the Great Curse making the Solars ever more arrogant and erratic. So yes, but there's no mechanical requirement to do it.

[Recaiden]

Three more 3e questions:

3. How should Body-Mending Meditation interact with aggravated damage?

Not at all. BMM doesn't help you heal aggravated damage faster.

[Katana1515]

Couple of quick Martial Arts questions. Assuming I am using a matched pair of slashing swords (or reaper daiklaves, but that gets to be a lot of merit points!) Is their any reason why I can't mix Steel Devil and Single Point? What do folk think of that as a match up?

Question 2 can I use MA's while mounted? I can't see anything explicitly banning it but a few friends of mine expressed scepticism. I suppose for the various unarmed styles it would be a bit odd, but this IS exalted after all!