When Belkar dies, will we see his afterlife

[RatElemental]

Although judging by the Roy's scenes up there I'm not sure the stickyverse has quite as many afterlives as is official, but just one for each alignment. The three directors also support this idea.

Well, there is this:

Right. But us? We have this elaborate system of rewards and punishments: heaven or hell, valhalla or the abyss, limbo or nirvana, or a dozen in-between.

Really depends on Roy's Knowledge(The Planes) and how specific he was being with "dozen."

However, Hel seems to have her own afterlife that is separate from the generic alignment ones. I base this on the fact that apparently none of the other evil northern gods would gain power from Hel having all the dwarves. Who's to say the other gods don't have their own planes they spirit the particularly devout to?

Edit: There's also wherever the Dark One's army resides.

[Darth Paul]

Who's to say the other gods don't have their own planes they spirit the particularly devout to?

The Dwarf pantheon seems to roughly follow the Norse pantheon; those who die well (i.e. honorably) go to Valhalla/Asgard/whatever-it's-called-this-year, while the dishonored dead go to Hel's realm, namely, Hell. Hell may be just a badly run-down suburb of Valhalla, rather than its own separate plane. I'm not certain whether it's been spelled out in the strip whether Hel has authority over an entire plane, or just the part of the Dwarven plane where the dishonored dead go.

On the other hand, since it's not made clear one way or the other as I recall (although my memory is often wrong): Hell may well be a separate plane which is Hel's domain. And other gods may easily have planes of their own. The Dark One seems to have a plane of his own; did it exist prior to his rise, or did it come into existence because of the power of his followers' belief? If the latter, that opens the door to other specific afterlives. Certainly it would seem the Elves must have one, if the Dwarves do.

Edit: You ninja'd me regarding the Dark One, while I was typing this reply. Great minds clearly think alike.

[Pyrous]

There is no dwarven pantheon. There is the Northern Pantheon, of which the dwarven demigod is a member. The elven gods are members of the Western Pantheon.

We saw in DStP that the LG souls of different world regions have their life review in different sides of the mountain. I would guess that each god has his domain somewhere in the plane appropriate to his alignment.

[Darth Paul]

There is no dwarven pantheon. There is the Northern Pantheon, of which the dwarven demigod is a member. The elven gods are members of the Western Pantheon.

We saw in DStP that the LG souls of different world regions have their life review in different sides of the mountain. I would guess that each god has his domain somewhere in the plane appropriate to his alignment.

So, do dwarves who move South or West go to a different plane when they die?

I would still argue that the Dwarven gods make up at least a distinct subset of the Northern Gods. Or, let's put it another way, if there are humans worshiping them anywhere, we haven't seen them yet. All the gods voting at the Moot appeared to be Dwarven gods/ Norse god equivalents... so much so that I would say the Northern Gods are the Dwarven gods. If not, where were all the rest?

[Pyrous]

So, do dwarves who move South or West go to a different plane when they die?

I would still argue that the Dwarven gods make up at least a distinct subset of the Northern Gods. Or, let's put it another way, if there are humans worshiping them anywhere, we haven't seen them yet. All the gods voting at the Moot appeared to be Dwarven gods/ Norse god equivalents... so much so that I would say the Northern Gods are the Dwarven gods. If not, where were all the rest?

There is ONE dwarf specific god: Dvalin. Half of the High Priests of the Gods are humans. 3 of the 7 High Priests of demigods in the moot are humans. The first temple we saw in the comic was Freya's, in a human village, with a human cleric. In Greysky City they have the Church of Loki, one of the priests of said church was helping Haley and Celia, and removed Belkar's Mark of Justice.

ETA: As for dying, Roy died in the South, and didn't end up stuck in the couple thousand long line. Durkon died in the West. If Vaarsuvius had been vampirized in the South, Nergal would have created vis vampire spirit. If Malack had vampirized Roy, I guess that Hel would have the same claim over him. The souls likely belong to the pantheon that created it. Namely, the pantheon of the region they were born. The races with specific Gods (or demigods) are a exception to this because their soul is created by the racial god, and belong to the pantheon of that god. And if a mortal worships a deity from a different pantheon of the one they were born under, then we would have to study the Godsmoot that was likely called about this.

[Darth Paul]

There is ONE dwarf specific god: Dvalin. Half of the High Priests of the Gods are humans. 3 of the 7 High Priests of demigods in the moot are humans. The first temple we saw in the comic was Freya's, in a human village, with a human cleric. In Greysky City they have the Church of Loki, one of the priests of said church was helping Haley and Celia, and removed Belkar's Mark of Justice.

You're absolutely right about the church of Loki... It's the relative scale of gods relating to each other that makes me think of them as all dwarves, plus we had only seen dwarves worshiping them; with the important exception that I had forgotten about. That was my mistake & I stand corrected.

[hroþila]

Exceptions, plural. Besides the cleric of Loki and the temple of Freya, we've also just seen a bunch of gnomish priests of the very same northern gods.

[georgie_leech]

In other words, the dwarves worship the northern gods because they live in the north. This doesn't imply they are the bulk of their worshippers.

[Clistenes]

Perhaps the Belkster can multitask.

I didn't mean choosing between fighting, eating, drinking and sexing, I meant choosing between doing all of those in Ysgard or spend eternity hunting stuff in the dark, noisy caverns of Pandemonium.

So, do dwarves who move South or West go to a different plane when they die?

I would still argue that the Dwarven gods make up at least a distinct subset of the Northern Gods. Or, let's put it another way, if there are humans worshiping them anywhere, we haven't seen them yet. All the gods voting at the Moot appeared to be Dwarven gods/ Norse god equivalents... so much so that I would say the Northern Gods are the Dwarven gods. If not, where were all the rest?

The Northen Gods ARE the Dwarven Gods. Dwarves have only one race-specific demigod.

However, I think that, if a dwarf converts to a different directional pantheon, he or she would fall out of the Northen Pantheon purview, and hence, outside of Hel's influence, and would go to different Afterlife after death.

Mmmm... time for dwarves to convert en masse to Adad's worship? Or Ishtar's, Or Marduk's. Shamash and Sin both seem cool deities.

[Vinyadan]

If the dwarves all live in the same place, they probably all worship the same pantheon. If this were true, it wouldn't be wrong to say "dwarf gods" instead of "northern gods". However, we also have seen a dwergar in Azure City. He may have been a travelling merchant, but I wonder about his religion.

I think we give that much importance to the relationship between dwarves and their religion because we have seen a lot of cleric dwarves, and how their religion effects their lives, and we identify dwarf society with what is actually their religious society. The fact that they have special afterlives of which we know may give us more reason to identify a widespread religion as the dwarf religion.

In other words: maybe not-cleric dwarves are more similar to humans, from a religious perspective.

[wumpus]

I didn't mean choosing between fighting, eating, drinking and sexing, I meant choosing between doing all of those in Ysgard or spend eternity hunting stuff in the dark, noisy caverns of Pandemonium.

Mr. Scruffy is good at doing his redemption thing, but he's nowhere near "undo 2 kilonazis in under a year" good. As Lord Soon said, "redemption is a rare and special thing".

I think the best that Belkar can hope for is a trip to the Abyss and place in the armies in Eternal Battle. Maybe in a few millennia he will take his proper place as the "sexy, shoeless, god of war". No idea if he would think the Snarl would be worse. From the looks of it, Xykon is willing to take absolute destruction (the eventual fate of a lich, and presumably similar to death by snarl) over the long painful transformation of souls into parts of the Abyss.

[LightPhoenix]

My crazy theory is that Tiamat, and thus the Oracle, can't see past the rift into the other world. At first I thought Belkar would sacrifice himself by pulling Durkon into the portal to get Snarled. The more I think about it though, the more I think what will happen is Belkar (and possibly Durkon and/or the Order) go through the portal and Belkar stays there. That would fulfill the prophecy as pedantically as possible, and allow Rich to do some exposition about the other world.

[TheNecrocomicon]

I don't think we'll get to see Belkar's "afterlife" at all, but rather his unlife. Consider the following:

Belkar will draw his last breath -- ever -- before the end of the year.

Now we all know what a fondness the Oracle has for exact wording. And back at the start of the current book, when the Order were still in the gnome town (the name of the place escapes me), wasn't there a big show when Roy and Lurkon were going around to the local temples in #982/#984 about how the undead don't really breathe at all?

The combination of the two has me believing that Belkar will probably get vampirified, and the most likely time for that to happen is in a desperate push to take down Lurkon and his associated spawn before more damage can be done in the dwarven homelands. Since Belkar's already Evil-aligned, his soul wouldn't be overridden by another one the way that Durkon was hijacked by Lurkon, or if Belkar does get a vampire soul, it and his normal one will probably get along famously with so many things to agree on.

Actually, now that I think about it, vampirification would probably synergize fantastically with Belkar's desire to be a more powerful barbarian, thanks to increased physical strength, and even the ability to change form into a bat, wolf, etc. would be a boon to a ranger (as opposed to Durkon, where vampirification was a drawback to his clerical abilities).

[hroþila]

Belkar is also "not long for this world".

[Bulldog Psion]

The dwarves seem to be under a unique and exclusive divine curse.

They must worship Thor, and must additionally die in battle, or they automatically go to Hel's domain to be tormented for eternity.

Worse yet, this isn't just a theory. The gods are demonstrably real and present, and one can Plane Shift to confirm the conditions of the afterlife.

Their situation is quite horrifying, actually. (Of course, if this were anything like realistic, their society would have imploded long ago; and if it somehow didn't, it would be filled with constant fatal duels and berserkers, and would be a belligerent, conquering, extremely bellicose and hostile culture. Luckily, it's a D&D comic, so having an insane doom like that just produces a bunch of slightly grumpy, hard-working people with pseudo-Scottish accents. )

[TheNecrocomicon]

Belkar is also "not long for this world".

Sure, but only in #572 which I quoted did the Oracle speak about Belkar "on the record" in his whole glowy-aura, green-speech-bubbles routine. I would tend to say that's the real prophecy, as opposed to some offhand comment made while not on record.

[Kish]

Sure, but only in #572 which I quoted did the Oracle speak about Belkar "on the record" in his whole glowy-aura, green-speech-bubbles routine. I would tend to say that's the real prophecy, as opposed to some offhand comment made while not on record.

Why? If you're assuming the Oracle is lying some of the time when he says Belkar's a goner, why the arbitrary line between "this might be a lie, this isn't"?

[NerdyKris]

Thematically that doesn't make much sense to retread the exact same vampire plot with Belkar that Durkon just had. This isn't Order of the Vampires. In my opinion, any ending that results in a still evil Belkar walking around sort of defeats the entire point of his slow path to redemption.

[Peelee]

Sure, but only in #572 which I quoted did the Oracle speak about Belkar "on the record" in his whole glowy-aura, green-speech-bubbles routine. I would tend to say that's the real prophecy, as opposed to some offhand comment made while not on record.

Define "real prophecy."

[RatElemental]

If we want to go that far down the exact wording rabbit hole and ignore unofficial hints at it (savor his next birthday cake, etc), then it becomes possible for Belkar to change his name and dodge the prophecy. Or if the oracle is referring to the entity known as Belkar, if he somehow finds redemption, then he's not really the same Belkar now is he? I've seen prophecies gotten out of with similar "loopholes" before, though I doubt the giant would stretch the wording that far.

Belkar will draw his last breath-ever-before the end of the year.

[Peelee]

If we want to go that far down the exact wording rabbit hole and ignore unofficial hints at it (savor his next birthday cake, etc), then it becomes possible for Belkar to change his name and dodge the prophecy. Or if the oracle is referring to the entity known as Belkar, if he somehow finds redemption, then he's not really the same Belkar now is he? I've seen prophecies gotten out of with similar "loopholes" before, though I doubt the giant would stretch the wording that far.

To you as well: define "official prophecy."

[KorvinStarmast]

The dwarves seem to be under a unique and exclusive divine curse.

They must worship Thor, and must additionally die in battle, or they automatically go to Hel's domain to be tormented for eternity.

Uh, you got part of that dead wrong. There are other Gods, like Loki and Odin, who the dwarves worship. Odin's high priest also figures in OoTS.

[Black Socks]

But are we sure Belkar is going to die? The Oracle said he would "draw his last breath ever before the end of the year", but that doesn't mean he's going to die. We know from comic #982 that vampires don't need to breathe. Maybe he'll just become a vampire...

[NerdyKris]

But are we sure Belkar is going to die? The Oracle said he would "draw his last breath ever before the end of the year", but that doesn't mean he's going to die. We know from comic #982 that vampires don't need to breathe. Maybe he'll just become a vampire...

Well, I'm repeating myself from five posts ago, but thematically that doesn't make much sense to retread the exact same vampire plot with Belkar that Durkon just had. This isn't Order of the Vampires. And we know that a vampire is an evil spirit inhabiting the body, so it's very unlikely that the one that inhabits Belkar would be any more likely to work with the Order than Durkon's was, so you'd be right back at the same "We have to stop our evil vampire team mate" plot line we're currently in.

[Bulldog Psion]

Uh, you got part of that dead wrong. There are other Gods, like Loki and Odin, who the dwarves worship. Odin's high priest also figures in OoTS.

True, I was wrong on that. But they still have the stupid "die in battle" thing, for some reason.

[Ruck]

No, Belkar is a sadistic monster and hasn't really stopped.

What sadistic, monstrous behavior has Belkar engaged in in the current book?

[martianmister]

What sadistic, monstrous behavior has Belkar engaged in in the current book?

How about the last panel?

[Cizak]

True, I was wrong on that. But they still have the stupid "die in battle" thing, for some reason.

Probably because of the mentioned and unspecified deal between Hel and Thor, but also just because the dwarves believe in their honor system. Rich has mentioned that humans who hold a strong belief in an honor system would also need to die honorably to avoid Hel, but we can probably assume that very few humans do.

[Kish]

What sadistic, monstrous behavior has Belkar engaged in in the current book?

The current book has covered, what, a week of in-world time?

[RatElemental]

To you as well: define "official prophecy."

When the oracle does that weird green speech balloon thing. Anything you'll remember while passing through the memory charm (not counting being banished past it).

Off hand comments the oracle makes when not doing that still might be true, he is an oracle after all, but he'd be under no obligation to tell the truth. Though because he seems to assume his little charm is completely foolproof he probably isn't lying in any of his offhand comments, there would be little to no point.

Spoiler: Crazy Theory

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That is, unless he did in fact know Roy would get past the memory charm when he was banished and so he tried to plant seeds of a specific interpretation of the prophecy about Belkar, for... some reason. Maybe fate isn't fixed and he wants to make sure Belkar never gets raised, or prophecies are sort of a toss up between the interpretations until one of them happens or something. All highly unlikely I think.