The Good, the Bad and the Monk, a 5e Monk guide

[RulesJD]

So one guy says they should both be gold. I think they both shouldn't. Above someone says only diamond soul should be gold and you say only stunning strike should be gold ?

I think this is confusing and funny! I don't think what you say is right because with +15 con saves bosses are barely failing and if they fail they have LR. So till I see a REALLY good reason or many people think the same I'm not going to change it

1. AAAHAHAHAHAHAH no. Ancient Dragons generally only get +14-15 to Con saves, a Kraken does as well. An Ancient Red gets +16. But that is where it stops. Big T only gets +10. Empyrean only gets +10. Lich only gets +10. Solar gets +8, Pit Fiend +13, Balor +12, and so on down the list as you decrease from CR20 down.

I would GLADLY GLADLY take +16 Con against the Monk's DC 19 con save. Why? Because YOU DON'T GET ADVANTAGE AGAINST IT. Because if I hit 4 times/round and spend 4 Ki points, your BBEG essentially has super disadvantage against it. Roll a 1 or 2 on your Ancient Red Dragon, out of 4 rolls, and you're screwed/forced to spend a Legendary Resistance. That's a 10% chance on each roll that your BBEG goes down hard, so over 4 rolls that means every turn you have about a 35% chance of failing at least one. Change that Ancient Red to an Ancient Black, and you're up to 60% chance of your BBEG being locked down/burning Legendary Resistance. Against big T, you're all but guaranteed to be burning through the Legendary Resistences in 1-2 rounds.

That's a 35% chance to completely disable your BBEG, without a follow on save. And that's against the best BBEG to fight against a Monk. Throw the Monk up against a Big T, Empyrean, Lich, etc. and the numbers skew heavily in favor of the Monk VERY quickly. And it's a short rest mechanic that you'll be able to easily sustain for 4-5 rounds of combat.

3. But even all that, the BEST reason why Stunning Fist is Gold from the moment you get it until level 20, is that there are practically no monsters, regardless of CR level, that are Condition Immune to Stun. That means all your all spell effects aimed at locking down/controlling a BBEG (or any of their minions you have to fight on the way there) are likely to fail due to conditional immunities.

Are there better class features for locking down a BBEG? Sure, Wall of Force from the Wizard spell list is one example. But guess what, this isn't a ranking as against other classes features that can break the game, this is as against Monk features. And there is no other class feature that is as useful to a Monk as Stunning Fist all the way from the instant they get it to the highest tiers of play.

[RulesJD]

It seems that the greatest use for Stunning Strike is for disabling casters and other low Con, high power enemies. With three strikes, it has a very good chance of single-handedly dispatching enemies and thus preventing covering fire for other enemies. Monks aren't the fantastic DPR, boss-shattering PCs, they are skirmishers who have the right combination of mobility, power, and control to lock down targets that would normally prefer to hang back.

Agree with the underlined, disagree with the bold.

The problem is that people don't know how even 1-2 rounds of Stun completely ends a fight. Can the Monk burn down the boss like a Paladin? Absolutely not, the burst DPR just isn't there.

What the Monk can do is spend 4 Ki, practically guarantee at least 1 failure even with a crazy +con save. Next round, use a metal Chain/Manacles to slap it on the BBEG and bind them. Or take their spell focus/weapon. Or shove a rag down their throat to gag/prevent verbal components. Or blow dust in their eyes to Blind them.

Not to mention that most 5e combats are over in 5-6 rounds. Sure you can't outright kill the BBEG, but you can effectively remove them from the fight. And you can do the exact same thing for practically every fight due to Ki refreshing on a short rest.

Sure, it takes a Monk longer to kill pretty much anything, but the short rest recharge nature of Ki + how Stunning works + naturally short combat anyways = Stunning Fist being the best melee class feature in the game, especially so for Monks.

[SharkForce]

regarding the claim that save proficiency becomes less important as you level.

.....


what?

why do you imagine that is? are save DCs *decreasing* at high level? or perhaps the value of an action to remove the status effect by a cleric? or perhaps at high levels, only comparatively minor status effects that don't inflict major penalties are ever used?

because in my experience, none of those things are true. proficiency bonus to saving throws is great. your bonus gets bigger, and you're up against higher DCs; it is much harder to save against DC 18 status effects with +0 than it is to save against DC 10 status effects with +0. status ailments at higher levels tend to get more unpleasant, and the action the person who is most likely a primary spellcaster would have to spend to get you out of a negative status effect has probably increased in value dramatically. because when you're level 14+, that means they *could* have used their action (and spell slot) on something *other* than saving your butt. like killing the BBEG faster, or clearing out his/her/its minions.

so uhhh... in what way does proficiency in all saving throws somehow become not amazing just because it happens late in your character advancement? i mean, it kinda stunk to wait that long, but once you get it, it is awesome. and then, not only do you get proficiency, you get the ability to reroll failures, regardless of the source; that magic resistance that doesn't apply to your stunning fist? well you get to use your ability to resist that stunning fist no problem.

diamond soul is an extremely good ability.

[RulesJD]

It's not that they don't matter as you level, they absolutely do.

It's just that the ability itself doesn't come online until such a high level that it's "usefulness" is diluted by the fact that most players will never, ever see it in action.

From a mechanical standpoint absolutely, it's a gold ability. Just from an actual gameplay perspective it might not be.

[SharkForce]

It's not that they don't matter as you level, they absolutely do.

It's just that the ability itself doesn't come online until such a high level that it's "usefulness" is diluted by the fact that most players will never, ever see it in action.

From a mechanical standpoint absolutely, it's a gold ability. Just from an actual gameplay perspective it might not be.

this is a terrible way to analyze things.

it sucks because you probably won't have it? uuhhhh... no.

by that measure, every ability from every class in the game sucks because there will be far more characters that don't have it than do. the logic that you are using would tell me that action surge is not very good because there are many more non-fighter characters than there are fighters. it would tell me that portent sucks because there are far more characters that are not divination wizards than there are characters that are divination wizards. it would tell me that druid spellcasting sucks, because there are far more characters that will never get to use it than there are characters that will.

you can go ahead and rate things that way if you want. i think it's completely wrong and misleading and likely to lead to making poor choices, but hey, if you want to work on the basis of how likely people are to get the ability go ahead.

personally, i'm going to measure based on how good the ability is to have. if you're not playing a game that will go to level 14, then just ignore everything that comes after the point you expect to reach. that doesn't mean the abilities are bad, it just means you don't need to worry about them until you expect to reach that level.

[RickAllison]

this is a terrible way to analyze things.

it sucks because you probably won't have it? uuhhhh... no.

by that measure, every ability from every class in the game sucks because there will be far more characters that don't have it than do. the logic that you are using would tell me that action surge is not very good because there are many more non-fighter characters than there are fighters. it would tell me that portent sucks because there are far more characters that are not divination wizards than there are characters that are divination wizards. it would tell me that druid spellcasting sucks, because there are far more characters that will never get to use it than there are characters that will.

you can go ahead and rate things that way if you want. i think it's completely wrong and misleading and likely to lead to making poor choices, but hey, if you want to work on the basis of how likely people are to get the ability go ahead.

personally, i'm going to measure based on how good the ability is to have. if you're not playing a game that will go to level 14, then just ignore everything that comes after the point you expect to reach. that doesn't mean the abilities are bad, it just means you don't need to worry about them until you expect to reach that level.

That was an awful analogy to prove a valid point. A better analogy would be the capstone ability for a Moon Druid. It won't come online until level 20, but it's still considered one of the most powerful abilities in the game due to he massive amount of shielding it provides. It would also mean Foresight and Wish wouldn't be gold, as those come at the earliest at level 17.

[Malifice]

Diamond soul is extremely powerful if you'd get it earlier, now it is in my opinion still very powerful, but saves just aren't THAT important anymore (they still are). Stunning strike is really nice but as mentioned below, the con save is what this makes worse. It eats your Ki and playing a high level monk myself, later you can't use it often because of the legendary resistance. I think the both are close to gold, but I'm not too sure if they really are gold.

Stunning strike (once online) radically changes the way the Monk is played. You should be using at least 50 percent of your Ki on spamming stunning strike on argets.

Note it stuns them until the end of your next turn. When stunned, all creatures have advantage to hit them, and they cant take reactions or do anything at all. They also automatically fail Dex and Str saves (allowing them to be easily disarmed, pushed into a pit, grabbed or whatever) meaning that while stunned you can really screw them over even more.

My personal favorite is to move to [high priority target] using the monks mobility, slap them till theyre stunned then [using a 3 level BM dip] remove weapons/ spell foci from them via disarming strike and sit them on their ass using tripping strike [auto fail saves].

Even with a DC 15 or 16 Con save (and thats super impressive) spending 2 points of Ki virtually guarantees that your opponent misses a whole turn, and you and your party get a full round worth of attacks at the critter at advantage [a death sentence in 5E].

Its an auto win button against glass cannons like mages and so forth [who the monk is the bane of].

Once you witness a monk played smart with this ability, it cant be rated anything other than Gold.

[RickAllison]

Stunning strike (once online) radically changes the way the Monk is played. You should be using at least 50 percent of your Ki on spamming stunning strike on argets.

Note it stuns them until the end of your next turn. When stunned, all creatures have advantage to hit them, and they cant take reactions or do anything at all. They also automatically fail Dex and Str saves (allowing them to be easily disarmed, pushed into a pit, grabbed or whatever) meaning that while stunned you can really screw them over even more.

My personal favorite is to move to [high priority target] using the monks mobility, slap them till theyre stunned then [using a 3 level BM dip] remove weapons/ spell foci from them via disarming strike and sit them on their ass using tripping strike [auto fail saves].

Even with a DC 15 or 16 Con save (and thats super impressive) spending 2 points of Ki virtually guarantees that your opponent misses a whole turn, and you and your party get a full round worth of attacks at the critter at advantage [a death sentence in 5E].

Its an auto win button against glass cannons like mages and so forth [who the monk is the bane of].

Once you witness a monk played smart with this ability, it cant be rated anything other than Gold.

I think you overestimate the power of Stunning Strike. You are liable to drop more than two ki per turn if you want to stun the tougher creatures. I still think it's gold, just not quite as shiny of gold

[Lines]

I think you overestimate the power of Stunning Strike. You are liable to drop more than two ki per turn if you want to stun the tougher creatures. I still think it's gold, just not quite as shiny of gold

At fifth level when you get it the save will be DC 13-14, most enemies at that level will have about a 50% chance of saving. I'd say an average of two ki per turn sounds about right.

[Theodoxus]

At fifth level when you get it the save will be DC 13-14, most enemies at that level will have about a 50% chance of saving. I'd say an average of two ki per turn sounds about right.

And you have 5 Ki per short rest. So, 2 1/2 rounds on average. Given the right party makeup, you're slaughtering 2 decent opponents per short rest - choose wisely!

[dickerson76]

...They also automatically fail Dex and Str saves (allowing them to be easily disarmed, pushed into a pit, grabbed or whatever) meaning that while stunned you can really screw them over even more...

Tripping, shoving, and grabbing are Strength contests, not saving throws, so they are not auto-fail. Disarming is the only auto-fail you mentioned and that is only available to those who dipped BM.

[RickAllison]

Tripping, shoving, and grabbing are Strength contests, not saving throws, so they are not auto-fail. Disarming is the only auto-fail you mentioned and that is only available to those who dipped BM.

In the DMG, page 271, they do have optional actions/attack options that include disarming. However, your point still stands; that option is also a contest. That being said, by that interpretation an unconscious creature would also be able to resist being grappled since it also only auto-fails saving throws.

[PoeticDwarf]

1. AAAHAHAHAHAHAH no. Ancient Dragons generally only get +14-15 to Con saves, a Kraken does as well. An Ancient Red gets +16. But that is where it stops. Big T only gets +10. Empyrean only gets +10. Lich only gets +10. Solar gets +8, Pit Fiend +13, Balor +12, and so on down the list as you decrease from CR20 down.

I would GLADLY GLADLY take +16 Con against the Monk's DC 19 con save. Why? Because YOU DON'T GET ADVANTAGE AGAINST IT. Because if I hit 4 times/round and spend 4 Ki points, your BBEG essentially has super disadvantage against it. Roll a 1 or 2 on your Ancient Red Dragon, out of 4 rolls, and you're screwed/forced to spend a Legendary Resistance. That's a 10% chance on each roll that your BBEG goes down hard, so over 4 rolls that means every turn you have about a 35% chance of failing at least one. Change that Ancient Red to an Ancient Black, and you're up to 60% chance of your BBEG being locked down/burning Legendary Resistance. Against big T, you're all but guaranteed to be burning through the Legendary Resistences in 1-2 rounds.

That's a 35% chance to completely disable your BBEG, without a follow on save. And that's against the best BBEG to fight against a Monk. Throw the Monk up against a Big T, Empyrean, Lich, etc. and the numbers skew heavily in favor of the Monk VERY quickly. And it's a short rest mechanic that you'll be able to easily sustain for 4-5 rounds of combat.

3. But even all that, the BEST reason why Stunning Fist is Gold from the moment you get it until level 20, is that there are practically no monsters, regardless of CR level, that are Condition Immune to Stun. That means all your all spell effects aimed at locking down/controlling a BBEG (or any of their minions you have to fight on the way there) are likely to fail due to conditional immunities.

Are there better class features for locking down a BBEG? Sure, Wall of Force from the Wizard spell list is one example. But guess what, this isn't a ranking as against other classes features that can break the game, this is as against Monk features. And there is no other class feature that is as useful to a Monk as Stunning Fist all the way from the instant they get it to the highest tiers of play.

I meant the big bosses, but say +12 then.

You could if you go nova use 1 point to make an extra attack. You will on average hit two attacks.

Every turn you will spent 3 points. Two stunning strikes. You will every two turns have to spent ONE USE of legendary resistance. 80% of the 5e fights is over in or about 5 rounds, so you will nova through your KI and the boss won't even be stunned the whole fight. You will maybe get through the LR in 5 rounds then. With an average 4p party there are maybe 3 other saves the boss has to made. Conclusion. You use 15ki and the boss will just fail one save in the whole fight at all. Stune is huge, it isn't for 15 KI and 3 spellcast slots...

The only time my stunning strike worked against a CR 16+ boss was on level 15. When we fought an adult red dragon. I could just stun it with a HUGE amount of luck at the end. Spending 13 ki in that fight to stun the dragon one round. And for that the dragon used one use on my open hand ability. The stun once worked again some CR 14 creature and that's the high level stuff.

I do see more people people who think stunning strike is that strong. I should ptobably change it to Gold and later Sky Blue. I'll do it tommorow

[RulesJD]

I meant the big bosses, but say +12 then.

You could if you go nova use 1 point to make an extra attack. You will on average hit two attacks.

Every turn you will spent 3 points. Two stunning strikes. You will every two turns have to spent ONE USE of legendary resistance. 80% of the 5e fights is over in or about 5 rounds, so you will nova through your KI and the boss won't even be stunned the whole fight. You will maybe get through the LR in 5 rounds then. With an average 4p party there are maybe 3 other saves the boss has to made. Conclusion. You use 15ki and the boss will just fail one save in the whole fight at all. Stune is huge, it isn't for 15 KI and 3 spellcast slots...

The only time my stunning strike worked against a CR 16+ boss was on level 15. When we fought an adult red dragon. I could just stun it with a HUGE amount of luck at the end. Spending 13 ki in that fight to stun the dragon one round. And for that the dragon used one use on my open hand ability. The stun once worked again some CR 14 creature and that's the high level stuff.

I do see more people people who think stunning strike is that strong. I should ptobably change it to Gold and later Sky Blue. I'll do it tommorow

Level 15 Monk will have at minimum +10 to hit. Likely +11 from at least a +1 weapon for their main 2 attacks. Your Adult Red Dragon has AC 19. That means the Monk will hit 55-60% of the time. If someone follows my advice and level dips 1 into Cleric, you get Bless for a high AC/Save fight like this and you're hitting 60-80% of the time. So you'll be forcing a lot more stun saves on even a minimally optimized Monk.

[ruy343]

Uh, wait... Stunning Strike costs 3 points per use... Or so I thought...

[RulesJD]

Uh, wait... Stunning Strike costs 3 points per use... Or so I thought...

No, just one. Should probably be 3, but just 1.

[Malifice]

Tripping, shoving, and grabbing are Strength contests, not saving throws, so they are not auto-fail. Disarming is the only auto-fail you mentioned and that is only available to those who dipped BM.

There are plenty of options, abilities and spells that push people over or require dex or str saves (Dex and Str saves are among the most common in the game).

The OHM Monk archetype has one out of the box.

Stunning someone makes them vulnerable. All melee attacks have advantage and they auto fail Dex saves (hello fireball). Its a 200 percent increase in DPR against them, from the whole party, for a whole round in addition to denying them a whole rounds worth of actions. A [medium-hard] 5E combat rarely lasts more than around 5 rounds on average.

Look at a fight featuring a drow mage and a bunch of drow. The Monk runs up to the Mage (bonus action dash if needed, running along walls to get there) and attacks the mage 2-4 times spamming stunning strike on the 2 or so hits it lands. Odds are the Mage gets stunned. Our friendly Paladin then walks over and belts the Mage twice (at advantage) spamming a divine smite or two. The Mage cant take reactions, and likely explodes in a burst of gore. The Monk and Paladin proceed to high five each other.

If a creature is getting stunned and is still standing by the time its next turn comes around, youre probably not doing it right.

And you have 5 Ki per short rest. So, 2 1/2 rounds on average. Given the right party makeup, you're slaughtering 2 decent opponents per short rest - choose wisely!

Yep, so at 5th level youre stunning 1 priority target per short rest (2 encounters) and have 3 more Ki to do other stuff with. By the time you hit 10th youre stunning 1 priority target per encounter and still have 6 Ki left over per short rest.

A standard DnD encounter features 1 heavy/hard target and a bunch of mooks. A hobgoblin captain and a bunch of hobgoblins, or a Githyanki Knight and a bunch of Githyanki warriors, or a Drow mage and a bunch of drow warriors etc. The Monks role is to use his insane mobility to close with the priority target, and stun it, shutting it down. One or two PCs then deal with the mooks, while one or two PCs wail on the stunned priority target.

If an encounter begins with an enemy spellcaster within (move+dash) distance of the monk, its getting punched in the face at least twice (maybe up to 4 times) on turn 1 with stunning strike layered on to each hit.

When youve seen stunning strike employed by a smart player who understands the Monks role, it is devastating. One of those abilities that causes novice DMs to suddenly start plonking legendary saves on all monsters and giving them all Con proficiency to stop it (which is a douche move by the DM).

[PoeticDwarf]

Level 15 Monk will have at minimum +10 to hit. Likely +11 from at least a +1 weapon for their main 2 attacks. Your Adult Red Dragon has AC 19. That means the Monk will hit 55-60% of the time. If someone follows my advice and level dips 1 into Cleric, you get Bless for a high AC/Save fight like this and you're hitting 60-80% of the time. So you'll be forcing a lot more stun saves on even a minimally optimized Monk.

This is a monk guide, not a cleric/monk guide. So instead of 50% it becomes 55%/60%. Wow, big difference. And my monk didn't have 20 dex because of some roleplaying stats so that becomes +9. There were magic weapons, but just normal +1/+2 weapons are boring.

I still think it is a waste against the most powerful enemies, but it's true it is extremely powerful, even if played wrong. So I changed it to gold and later sky blue.

[Ruenruotel]

Hello there, EnderDwarf !
I have been analyzing your monk guide, as well as 3 others, for weeks, and I'm currently playing a Way of the Four Elements monk (even if I think he is less powerful than what I had with the Way of the Open Hand, I prefer him for the increased fun I get). As I am still in Tier 1, I keep rebuilding my character over and over again.

A question comes to my mind (in fact, more than one, but I will wait for an answer on this one before asking more) about the part of your guide on the Way of the Four Elements subclass.
You gave the "Breath of Winter" (Cone of Cold) discipline a "bad" (purple) color and said that "Your normal attacks do more damage and don't cost ki points".

I am confused on this rating, and would like to have explanations.
Let's simulate a Level 17 (so Proficiency bonus of +6) Way of the Four Elements Monk with a score of 20 (+5) in Dexterity and Wisdom. In the simulation, he will always do average dices.

Let's say he does four attacks on his first turn (with Flurry of Blows, so 1 ki point used). As he has a bonus of +11 on his attacks, he has a 50% chance of hitting an enemy with 22 of Armor class (I will call him Fred), and 75% chance of hitting an enemy with 16 of Armor class (I wil call him Bob).
Let's say he focuses his 4 strikes on Fred, so he actually hits 50% of the time. Now, for the damage : 1d10+5 times 2, so 21 damage in average.
For the same situation with Bob, the monk would get an average damage of 31.5.

Now, on his second turn, let's say the monk uses his Breath of Winter (using 6 points of ki), which implies a Constitution saving throw of 19 (8+6+5). Let's say Fred has a Constitution modifier of +7 and is proficient in Constituton saving throws with a proficiency bonus of +6 (75% chance of taking half damage), and Bob has a Constitution modifier of +3 without proficiency (25% chance of taking half damage). Fred has 3 brothers with the same statistics, as well as Bob.
The damage for a Cone of cold is 8d8, so an average of 36 (18 if halved).
Two examples :
A) The Breath touches the four Freds, and three get a save on it. Fred1, Fred2 and Fred3 take 18 damage, and Fred4 takes 36. Total damage of 90.
B) The Breath touches the four Bobs, and one gets a save on it. Bob1, Bob2 and Bob3 take 36 damage, and Bob4 takes 18. Total damage of 126.

Giving these examples, it appears to me that Breath of Winter does more damage in one round, may it be against one or several ennemies.
Of course, if we take the ki point usage in consideration, I agree that in the long run, you would make more damage to a single opponent using 6 Flurried turns instead of one Breathed turn. In the Fred example, 126 (21*6) is higher than 90.

But... I still think that the Breath of Winter discipline deserves a better rating.
What do you think, EnderDwarf (or any other person that wants to answer me) ?

-Ruenruotel

P.S. : It is possible that I have done errors in my calculations. If so, I apologize.

[Serket]

I've seen a few guides like this, where someone rates class features and suggests ability score choices. And while I get that you're trying to help and I really do appreciate the effort, I don't think this format is particularly useful. New players reading the PHB usually get guidance on ability scores anyway, and it doesn't matter how good a particular class feature is - if you pick that class you get the feature, good or bad. What matters is how to make best use of said class features.

If you want to give advice, great! That's a good thing. But advice is most useful when framed in terms of player choices. A new-to-the-game player who's never played a monk doesn't need to know how good you think their level 17 class features are. They need to know how to make the round-by-round tactical choices in the game they're playing. Where to stand, who to hit, when to spend ki, what targets respond best to stunning fist... that sort of thing. Meanwhile a more experienced player who understands game tactics 101 but doesn't understand monk can be assumed to understand the 101 bit, but needs to know how the monk fits into it. So maybe talk about party roles and which/how monks can fill (them)?

Edited to add, like this:

A standard DnD encounter features 1 heavy/hard target and a bunch of mooks. A hobgoblin captain and a bunch of hobgoblins, or a Githyanki Knight and a bunch of Githyanki warriors, or a Drow mage and a bunch of drow warriors etc. The Monks role is to use his insane mobility to close with the priority target, and stun it, shutting it down. One or two PCs then deal with the mooks, while one or two PCs wail on the stunned priority target.

EG:
Look at a fight featuring a drow mage and a bunch of drow. The Monk runs up to the Mage (bonus action dash if needed, running along walls to get there) and attacks the mage 2-4 times spamming stunning strike on the 2 or so hits it lands. Odds are the Mage gets stunned. Our friendly Paladin then walks over and belts the Mage twice (at advantage) spamming a divine smite or two. The Mage cant take reactions, and likely explodes in a burst of gore. The Monk and Paladin proceed to high five each other.

[Spacehamster]

Great guide! :)
If you wanted to make a Cthulu monk(2 GOO warlock/ rest shadow monk) would you say taking level 1 as warlock and delaying 2nd attack and shadow monk teleport by 1 level is worth it for getting CON saves from the start for not loosing concentration on hex?

[Fast Jimmy]

Nice guide!

I was wondering... very little is said here about the Fighter MC, other than saying "1 or 2 levels isn't bad."

I'd say 1 level isn't that great - most Fighting Styles do not apply to monk at all, Armor and Weapon proficiencies are worthless with unarmored defense and monk weapons. You get the ability for more HP and Con Saves if you grab it level 1 and Second Wind isn't terrible, but none of those are worth less monk in my mind.

2 is getting somewhere... Action Surged Monk w/ Flurry of Blows unleashes four attacks in a round as early as Level 4, six attacks as early as Level 7. Nice nova, if you can grab it.

But Fighter 3 is where you can really make things interesting. EK is fairly lame due to MAD dependencies, but other options are great.

Battlemaster gives you Superiority Die, a strong resource that regenerates every short rest, just like your Ki and uses Dex as its Save (something you should be maxing out anyway). Meshes very well with a monk's ability set.

Champion is amazing, as always. Monks hit a lot, so getting increased chance to crit is only making those increased hits more likely to hurt a lot more.

Then you have some of the UA archetypes which, if your DM allows, can be interesting, such as the Scout or Monster Hunter, which can give you superiority die just like the BM, along with some interesting other abilities even as early as Level 3. Combine one of these archetypes with the Martial Adept feat and you have a large chunk of the BattleMaster's best stuff combined with a lot of extra bonuses. A dicey move for a MAD monk (pun intended), but it definitely makes you a master of many options, even if mechanically just a peg weaker than taking an ASI.


All that to say... if you go Monk/Fighter, go Fighter 3. Maybe even Fighter 4. Fighter 1, Monk 5, Fighter 2+3, Monk X has the potential to being much more powerful than just straight Monk.

[RulesJD]

Fighter dip is pretty terribad on a Monk, but mostly just because their other options of Warlock/Ranger/Cleric synergize much better.

All 3 of those options offer better DPR increases than a Champion would offer (average of an extra d6 or d8 on crits <<< Hunter's Mark/Hex/Divine Favor) any additional abilities that would be superior than Second Wind/Action Surge.

[RickAllison]

I would like to point out that the Fghter 1 dip does give access to the longbow for normal use, as well as to magical crossbows (which otherwise aren't really worth it). That longbow opens up the range of the monk to 150' without disadvantage and 600' with. Coupled with the monk getting significant bonuses to ranged combat through Deflext Missiles, Step of the Wind, and the massive movement bonuses, that proficiency gives access to a world of ranged options.

Of course, that becomes null conpared to other dips. Ranger (and War Cleric? I'm less familiar with them) gives that proficiency with Hunter's Mark. My argument is simply that due to the expanded range options, Fighter 1 does give something.

[RulesJD]

Warlock dip wouldn't give Longbow, but of course it would give EB.

Ranger/War Cleric gives all Martial Weps.

[RickAllison]

Warlock dip wouldn't give Longbow, but of course it would give EB.

Ranger/War Cleric gives all Martial Weps.

So Ranger and War Cleric 1 are better options than Fighter 1 (no surprise there), but Warlock is probably worse. EB would key off of Charisma for attacking, increasing the MADness. On the other hand, he gets 'lock on a short rest...

[Fast Jimmy]

Fighter dip is pretty terribad on a Monk, but mostly just because their other options of Warlock/Ranger/Cleric synergize much better.

All 3 of those options offer better DPR increases than a Champion would offer (average of an extra d6 or d8 on crits <<< Hunter's Mark/Hex/Divine Favor) any additional abilities that would be superior than Second Wind/Action Surge.

Warlock is a tough bid to make, though, as Charisma should be a monk's dump stat, fourth behind Dex, Wis and Con. To meet the 13 Cha you'd need to multiclass, you'd need to have a very low Con for a melee class.

Cleric is pretty solid, in terms of getting some solid spells and domain perks for even a one level dip, I'll agree with that.

Ranger is okay, if just for Hunter's Mark, but two levels for one spell is a hefty price. Natural Explorer and Favored Enemy are largely circumstantial bonuses, as neither do much outside of some out of combat help. None of the four fighting styles Rangers give anything to a monk, so it's another dead benefit. Plus, going two levels only gains you two spell slots, which means you can cast the spell twice. Granted it's an hour long and can be transferred to any target you hit within that hour, but it's quite likely that you'll burn through those and not have the benefit for every fight.


All that being said... I didn't say Monk X/Fighter 3 was the greatest MC option for the Monk, just that I thought it would be worth going the extra level if anyone was already dipping 1 or 2 levels in.

[Fast Jimmy]

I would like to point out that the Fghter 1 dip does give access to the longbow for normal use, as well as to magical crossbows (which otherwise aren't really worth it). That longbow opens up the range of the monk to 150' without disadvantage and 600' with. Coupled with the monk getting significant bonuses to ranged combat through Deflext Missiles, Step of the Wind, and the massive movement bonuses, that proficiency gives access to a world of ranged options.

Of course, that becomes null conpared to other dips. Ranger (and War Cleric? I'm less familiar with them) gives that proficiency with Hunter's Mark. My argument is simply that due to the expanded range options, Fighter 1 does give something.

Yes, but Longbow is not a monk weapon, so it does not scale or benefit from the Monk's class bonuses such as Ki-Empowered strikes. In addition, you lose any benefit from Martial Arts as well. Shadow Monk could do okay with this, but at this point, you are just a high-movement Ranger in my mind.

[Fast Jimmy]

So Ranger and War Cleric 1 are better options than Fighter 1 (no surprise there), but Warlock is probably worse. EB would key off of Charisma for attacking, increasing the MADness. On the other hand, he gets 'lock on a short rest...

Why is Ranger 1 better than Fighter 1? Second Wind and Con Saves (while not earth shattering) are better than Natural Explorer and Favored Enemy.

Ranger 2 is better than Fighter 2 (although the Fighter 2 is no slouch with Action Surge), because you get Ranger spells, but for a one level dip, I'd say Fighter eeks out a win.

[RickAllison]

Yes, but Longbow is not a monk weapon, so it does not scale or benefit from the Monk's class bonuses such as Ki-Empowered strikes. In addition, you lose any benefit from Martial Arts as well. Shadow Monk could do okay with this, but at this point, you are just a high-movement Ranger in my mind.

For ranged, you aren't getting that anyway. This is compared to the short bow, which is the only comparable option monks have (can they use light crossbows?).

And I forgot Ranger was a half-casting class, and so don't get Hunter's Mark until 2...